Player Character Balance

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Originally Posted by Faltout

HOW DOES PLAYER POWER EFFECT ME:

So why do I want to see multiclassing and extreme synergy nerfed when it's fun for some players and it doesn't effect me since I can make other builds? Because monster DCs, HP, tactics of difficult content are designed based on player power. People keep saying that it's the inflated HPs of the mobs in end-game that make those overpowered builds the only option while it's the other way around. The overpowered builds caused the inflated HP of the mobs in end-game content because the devs wanted to present a challenge to the playerbase. By giving more power in general and not nerfing what is, the monsters need to get tougher to reflect the player power. That actually ruins the builds that focus only on one thing leaving vulnerabilities hoping the party will cover those vulnerabilities with a proper paystyle. When the trash mobs that a tank is trying to take on are hitting like a boss mob, it's because there were builds that could actually stand in the middle of a horde of monsters and not get seriously hurt.
Nerfing player power would most likely cause problems with the current overpowered mobs. So when redesigning player power the devs should also address again the monster power to reflect the change.

TL;DR
Multiclassing should be a pretty viable option for someone that wants to fill many roles a party needs but should be less effective at all those roles. Specializing in a role should give bonuses beyond imagination in that role while leaving no room for other role specializations. Class enhancements, feats, skills should be more tied to class rather than just character level.
The above include the proposals already in the thread:
- Boost the capstones
- Nerf the monster power along with player power
- Reduce synergies
- Make enhancements consider class level instead of character level (+feats, +skills ex. Manyshot raise num of arrows at ranger levels)

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I disagree with the diagnosis (although at least you tried to answer the question "why"): I don't think people is saying it's mobs hp that is causing those builds (there are more than it seems, but probably you refer to all succesful builds that are effective while ranging in whatever form) to be the only one viable -> no, it's the damage output they do that is too unmanageable for melees to stand and therefore contribute with their dps (which is perfectly fine) and enjoy the fun. There is a consensus. However, I have to say that some melee builds can still deal with that with some proper healing backup... Let's leave it there...
So you do not want to make your character more powerful by taking 1 class split or 2 that is available to you and therefore if someone is doing it it is overpowered? When an option is available to everyone, that is not overpowered. Another thing is whether it becomes gamebreaking. 2 monk breaks the game? why? Nonsense. Multiclassing should always be rewarding. why should a fighter 20 be as powerful as a 16/2/2 or 12/2/2? You even go further as to say it should be more powerful? Why? Multiclassing options are there, always have been, take more planning, and open so many possibilities. Sure, you don't want to multiclass, don't, and wait for someone to join the group to do some specific task you could have performed with some extra planning investment. Capstones are already good enough, they are a freebie that actually is debatable. "Give us an incentive to stay pure". Still, why? If there is an item that goes in slot A and makes you way more effective, you can use it or not, that is your option, at the cost of using the slot, why should any other item have a similar level of power to your build. Some will be sinergetic and some won't. That's ok and fun. Well you could argue the same with PLs. Give us an incentive to stay single live!! Single Life toons should be as effective as completionists (free that feat already, come on!), "give as a reward for not having TRd". Seems like a twisted logic but it is not. The option is there and is available to you. You cannot choose to not take the available tools/options that the game provides to be more powerful/effective/efficient and then ask for your build to be as effective as the one that optimized all.
Yes, gamebreaking stuff needs to be changed. EiN is not what once was, quivering palm seems to have reach some kind of middle point, etc. etc. If there is an ability that kills all mobs every 10 seconds at no cost, sure go ahead change it, no problem. Some people seem to have a fixation, I don't know where that comes from, with pure builds. DDO is not about pure builds and then there was a mistake in design that allowed you to mix 3 classes. Multiclass is the bread and butter of DDO.
Along this thread something has been identified: melee gets too much damage on EE. Fine, let's see what can be done, but that has to be balanced towards the mentality that melee has tools available for versatility.
Solo/party. Some hatred to solo play also among the thread. Some people has fun soloing stuff and some people hates solo play and understands the game as a party where there are definite roles. Well, this game is fantastic at pleasing both possibilities. For me, I like partying a lot, but soloing EE is a very nice challenge, and I consider my toon is correctly built (for me, of course) when it allows me to solo that content (with the obvious exceptions). And yes there was a time when a Barbarian could go out there and solo the hardest content. We had a legendary angry Axe wielder out there that broke many missconceptions...
Funnily enough, another legend around here, MrCow, predicted the possible "paradigm shift" that ranged use could bring to the game (when BAB would increase enough and some other variables took place) some years ago, when ranged was still laughable.

Here is my take on Class Balance as it affects my game play and enjoyment.

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY:

(A) [Epic Elite] ~ Irrelevant. EE is just a small portion of the game. What character combinations play or don’t play EE doesn’t factor into my build choices for running heroic level content, Epic Normal , Epic Hard and most raids before level 26. My disinterest in EE stems from the inflated bag of hit points that dominate those quest. I find EE tedious rather than challenging. Having said that; in my view, EE should be a challenge for the best builds with the best gear and not necessarily accessible to every wacky multi-class combination under the sun.

(B) [End Game Raid Design] ~ Important. This is 100% on Turbine and the raid mechanics it creates. Are save or die mechanics so extreme that a character with evasion and divine grace is a must? If so, we design builds with those characteristics? Is it too dangerous to engage monsters in melee range? If so, we design builds for missle fire and long range spell kiting.

Turbine, it is up to you to design mechanics that incentivize a wider variety of build choices. Are there traps that need to be disabled by someone specialized in that task rather than just evaded and ignored? Is there a reason to tank something rather than just kite it or kill it? Add monsters that are difficult to kite or kill but needed to be controlled, say one with a glass jaw that is easy to stun, but every time one is killed two more come back in its place. Or undead spirits resistant to physical attacks that are particularly vulnerable to turn undead. Give us problems that can’t all best be solved by one universal solution and we will play a greater variety of builds (and have more fun doing so).

?
(C) [Class Identity] ~ Relevant. Character power resides in Enhancements and Epic Destinies ~ unlocked through various levels of multiclassing. In this context, rating the strength of the paladin class as whole (2 or 4 levels of Paladin –great!, 20 levels of Paladin – not so much) or the relative strength of any other class misses the mark.

Most of the time this is a good thing. Being able to build and play almost anything on your own terms is what makes DDO worth playing. So long as I can have fun and reasonable success in EN playing a 7 wizard/13 zombie monk or a 12 ftr/7bard/1 barbarbarian brutal throwing halfling I consider the game balanced. Fringe builds such as these don’t necessarily need to excel in EE or even raids.

Where this is a problem is when a central feature of a class is so weak by comparison it becomes unplayable at upper heroic levels and EN content. At a minimum, a core concept of a class should be sufficiently strong to be enjoyable at all levels of content. Here are just two small examples:

DRUIDS: Bear Form/ Wolf Form. Unplayable at Epic levels and insufficiently supported at heroic levels. I havn’t found any workable class/enhancment combination for playing in bear form. The only way I can make wolf get by is to mult-class. This seems criminal that pure Druids are effectively barred from playing as Bears.

TRAP MAKING/ TRAP MONKEY: Trap making (mines/grenades) are far too weak even for casual solo play at heroic levels. Epic level play is out of the question. The trap making aspect of Rogue Mechanic is a joke in terms of relative power and there is no support within Epic Destinies. On the flip side, a dedicated trap monkey is emasculated by DDO quest design. There are exceptions, but for the most part, traps are absent or when present its more efficient to heal/raise your way through the trap then reward a dedicated trapper. As often as not, a minor splash in a few levels of rogue or artificer is enough to handle most traps.

SOLUTIONS

1. First, before you do anything else, scale down the inflated hit points and to a certain extent, the excessive damage of EE monsters.
2. Second, look at raid design as a means to diversify end game builds. Make stealth, fascinate, charm, sunder, shield block, intimidate, healing, turning, assassinate, ranged, control, insta kill, energy damage, trip, etc. vitaly important at various times.
3. Be sure Raid end rewards are balanced for a variety of classes too. Look at CITW for example, not much reason to play a divine caster when this was end game based on the raid loot.
4. (*) Raise the relative power level of the Epic Moments of various destinies [Primal Avatar, Fate Singer, and Unyieding Sentinal in particular are categorically rejected in favor of other, stronger destinies]. (*) If you only have time for one class balance change, make revisiting all epic destiny moments the main focus.
5. Dramatically increase the capstone power of pure classes. Each capstone should be greater in power than both evasion and divine grace (benefits offered by splashing 2 levels or rogue/monk or paladin).
6. Link capstone with a specific Epic Destiny to increase the power while in that destiny and further reward playing a pure class. For example, Archmage Capstone (Master of Magic) could be linked "Arcane Adept" from Magister i.e. a 20th level wizard could gain 25% reduction in spell point cost instead of 10%.
7. Identify core concepts of various classes. Make sure these abilities are supported and scale in usefulness through all levels of gameplay (1 – 30). Consider whether these features are viable in EE and if not balance accordingly. Provide gear and quest/raid content that utilize and augment these abilities. Examples that fall short in EE relative to current FOTW builds include:

• Wolf/Iron Defender Enhancements @ Epic (Artificer/Druid)
• Trap Making [mines, grenades] (Artificers, Rogues)
• Rune Arms (Artificers)
• Damage Reduction (Barbarian)
• Fascinate (Bards)
• Control ~ Dance, Hold, Daze, Hypnotism (Bard, Wizard)
• Sonic Damage Spells (Bards)
• Turn Undead (Cleric, Paladin)
• Healing (Cleric, FVS, Druid)
• Bear Shape Change Melee (Druid)
• Wolf Shape Change Melee (Druid)
• Sword and Board (Fighter, Paladin)
• Stealth (Rogue, Ranger)
• Trap Disarming (Rogue, Artificer)
• Insta-kill (Wizard, Clr)

NERFING….

A. Before you do any nerfing, implement steps 1-7 above
B. Before you do any nerfng; Turbine, ask yourself, is the game more fun to play because of this abilitiy? Let the “fun factor” temper whatever measures you deem necessary
C. Legendary Dreadnaught (Blitz). I’m not convinced this is unbalancing the game. Master's Blitz is great for solo play but less impressive when other Blitzers are in the party competing for kills. Bring up the power of other Epic Moments to provide a viable alternative in a different Destiny rather than nerf blitz.
D. If Turbine is insistent on Nerfing don’t mess with the cool down or charge up; maybe cap max damage stack at 5 times instead of 10.
E. Shirardi Caster. I’m not convinced this is unbalancing the game. I enjoy running quests with a Shirardi caster in my party. It does not make me feel marginalized or like I need to reroll into something else. They are a fun build that is fun to play with.
E. Weakening the Shirardi destiny would be a mistake; it would penalize too many other potential builds from archers to throwing weapon builds.
F. Restricting Double Rainbow from spells would be a mistake. The randomness of a volley of magic missiles adds fun to the game. DDO is made better by the fact that this type of build can exist.
G. If Turbine is insistent on Nerfing maybe reduce the proc rate slightly for spells or cap the number of times it can trigger per second but don’t eliminate the build altogether
H Fury Shot. I’m not convinced this is unbalancing the game. In addition to Min/Max builds it provides fun for lesser ranged builds
I. Restricting Adrenaline from ranged combat would be a mistake. Periodically seeing big numbers is fun (although the magnitude of those numbers may be worth questioning)
J. If Turbine is insistent on Nerfing maybe restrict Adrenaline to the first arrow and only the first arrow of a multishot attack.
K. Refer to Item #1 again….. “First, before you do anything else, scale down the inflated hit points and to a certain extent, the excessive damage of EE monsters” No nerfs are sensible without a balance to EE content as well.

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Originally Posted by Sebastrd

In my opinion, it's anything that dictates choices to the player.



Posts like this miss the point. Players don't splash monk because it's overpowered; they splash monk because evasion is necessary. There's a difference. That's why nerfing monk won't fix the problem.

If everyone splashes for evasion because they need it to survive, taking away evasion doesn't fix the problem. If everyone runs ranged DPS because staying within arms' reach of an EE mob is suicide, nerfing ranged DPS doesn't fix the problem. If everyone multiclasses because pure class builds are too narrowly focused, one-trick ponies, nerfing multiclassing doesn't fix the problem. If all casters are in Shiradi because EE mobs' HP are inflated to the point that Shiradi procs on cheap spells are the only option for taking them down, nerfing Shiradi doesn't fix the problem.

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Evasion is not even necessary with so few exceptions... Miior EE comes to mind... Yes, I miss evasion there... Well, I need a party or EH. It's ok. Yes as a monkcher that boss would have been cake :D

Haunted halls of Eveningstar, such a wonderful quest!!! I have so much fun there! And the commentaries, and the voice!! Instant classic quest. One of my favourites along with the good old Deleras chain and some others.

Sorry if anyone has said this before, but...

Before anything else is done, EE difficulty needs to be more accessible to anyone who is not a self-healing caster or furyshot build.

Now, if mob HP is lowered in EE, then Fury + Manyshot becomes VERY OP. Thus, that synergy will need to be nerfed a bit. I would suggest making it so that it's not possible to use Adrenaline with a bows or crossbows, but allow it to be used with throwing weapons.

Master's Blitz may need a nerf as well. Just reduce the damage each stack gives, in that case. Players like the challenge of having to keep killing things within the time limit in order to get their damage up.

One the EE adjustments and any nerfs are done, *then* it would be a good idea for the developers to put up a thread for the express purpose of discussing enhancements and potential changes. Right now bards, barbarians and paladins are in a bad spot. Core abilities and capstones needs buffs in most classes, as well.

I think you need a little historical perspective to see the underlying issues. When the old epic system was replaced with EN, EH, and EE, the result was that almost all builds were fairly effective in EN and EH. The curve for EE was intentionally very steep from EN/EH and existed as an extreme challenge for a small percent of the population base. With the enhancement and other changes. a handful of builds developed that could be effective in EE. As more people began to use those builds, we began to see a steady increase in EE LFMs. As that cycle continues, more players see that to have the most options to get in a group and play the game, they need to have EE effective builds. I think here are some of the options you have to consider:
1. Nerf key components of builds that make them effective in EE, but do not adjust EE difficulty. In theory this reduces the LFMs/groups running EE again. With most LFMs then being EN/EH, most builds could participate.
2. Buff weaker classes and EDs to make them effective in EE, but do not adjust EE difficulty. In theory if most builds can be effective in EE and most LFMs are EE, then most people get to play together.
3. Nerf key components of builds that make them effective in EE, but reduce the difficulty curve with EE. In theory the player power range is narrower, but so is the difficulty range, so again most builds can play with each other.

I could live with any of these options. The point I think is to design a system where most classes and EDs can effectively contribute in the quests that most players are running. I think people that have invested time in the game want to be able to log in and participate in most the content that other players are running, while still enjoying the great variety of classes and races that DDO offers..

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Originally Posted by BOgre

Okay, yes, when soloing you will want to pull mobs one at a time, pin/whistle them, melee them while helpless, etc. Bluff, SA, Unbalancing, (Imp)Deception, are all your friends, fine. But running quests that way drops your xp/min into the floor, and who wants to spend 90 minutes in VoN3 for 50kxp?
Using your described tactics in an EE group is just as senseless, since your contribution to the party is really no better than if you WERE a soulstone.
Again, that's not how a capable AA ranger handles combat. He turns on his most powerful imbues and dr breaking secondaries, runs in the most powerful ED(s), and mows down the mobs with IPS, use of position, shedding aggro with all the tools he has access to, etc...

Now, I can see that you understand this concept from your other posts, so I'm not exactly saying "you're full of it," but the one post i quoted you on is a terrible oversimplification and just not realistic in today's game.

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Hi,

CC is valuable in EE groups as well as when soloing. A line of pinned and or dancing mobs, who are helpless and taking extra damage from melee and spells speeds things up, it doesn't slow things down.

Those abilities, when used effectively, reduce incoming damage and increase outgoing damage. It takes little to no time to use them, you do it as you engage, then the fight goes from there. Monsters who are CC'd don't need to be chased around, nor do they overwhelm your melees as easily with their heavy hitting power.

I am somewhat surprised that I have to explain this.

The example I provided was simple, but it showed how a ranger running in shiradi can cope with EE content solo and can increase both their own and the group's DPS in the same content. They are not mutually exclusive with quick completions, in fact using those abilities well contributes to them.

What you appear to be endorsing is that a non 10k stars AA keep his hands glued to the bow no matter what, when depending on circumstances that can represent a DPS decrease overall. But unless you are hitting several mobs simultaneously, your damage output can easily be lower by staying ranged than it is in melee if manyshot is on cooldown.

I use the tactics I've described in "today's game", and they work well. They help towards easy, quick completions and my kill counts, flawed metric that it is, remain healthy.

Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Vamm

I don't agree with some of this. Why remove a high CON pre-req and toughness to get epic toughness? Shouldn't the whole purpose of it to be for meaty characters to get meatier and not for squishies to get a random HP bump because they feel like it?

And an epic feat that gives you a Paladin's unique perk? To me, that just downgrades my desire to go Paladin.

I think the point of this thread is that each class should be worth playing as well as have that special function/purpose that another class can't easily duplicate. To encourage party cohesion and promote a mix of abilities that work well together when teamed up should be the goal of any MMO. It shouldn't be one overpowered character's show with everyone else along for the ride. Otherwise, why don't we all just go play Mass Effect or some other single-player experience of choice?

I do agree that a surgeon's touch vs. a bazooka would be more appropriate.

I'd be *really* curious what the breakdown of what the classes/races of 'regular' players across the entire base are. You would think that'd be extremely revealing on what is overpowered/underpowered given DDOs maturity.

I also agree with many posters that 'pure' classes should have more incentive to put them on par with multi-classes, likely in the form of a much better capstone. Let the choice of single vs. multi-class actually be a tough one instead of a no-brainer (funny I say that as my primary is a pure class fighter).

Anyway, I think the devs looking for this type of feedback is fantastic. Hoping good stuff comes from it. I did recommend in the survey comments and will do so here as well that it might be a good idea to link the survey on the launcher. Then those who don't read the forums regularly have a chance to participate as well and the devs get a better data sampling size.

Also, regarding the survey, might have been a good idea to have an "N/A" option, in the event you're not familiar with a particular ED or class. Wouldn't want to skew the data unnecessarily.

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At Epic levels 50HP means nothing to a 1200hp tank., 50HP to a squishier 450HP toon is meaningful. It is pretty common for players who hit the 1khp skip this epic fat for something else.
Rogues for example are already tight for feats and require points in most stats, vs other builds who have free stats to invest in con and one other primary stat.. these builds can forsake con for other feats.


Paladins have access right from the beginning levels, as an epic feat for other toons it doesn't become available until the epic levels and most wont have the cha investment to get the same bonus, but it does offer an opportunity for other players to get almost useful saves in epic content. There are other perks the paladin class should be able to provide to other classes instead of people splashing paladin just for the saves and occasional LOH.


Capstones should offer a desirable perk that really makes you rethink multi-classing. The capstone should be a unique bonus and not be trumped by gear,.

Quick fix:
Increase the bonus XP a quest gives for completing the quest without killing anyone (discreet/devious/insidious cunning). That will make rogues (sneak) CC casters (like bards) much more useful. It won't work in every quest - but if you could create that as a viable playstyle option, then I think people would maybe gravitate towards that.

Right now these bonuses are 5/7/10% respectively, which is woefully low. This is the harder option. Also, you'd probably have to make it so that if a bard fascinates, (for example) that you have the mob completely forget that it ever happened, so they don't go wander through the entire dungeon looking for the PC. That's going to be a ton of server load with all that active agro.


I spent a lot of time thinking about that solution. It's super easy, doesn't require class changes, but suddenly makes the game far more interesting and engaging. Classes that don't bring a lot of DPS to the table suddenly become viable options.

What makes a build weak is a combination of two things: DPS and survivability. Bards struggle because they aren't designed for massive DPS. Barbarians suffer, because they have no self-healing capabilities.

Second fix:
A barbarian's rage heals him for the duration of the rage.

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Originally Posted by LOOON375

The tier one ability of 1.5 (W) unarmed damage bonus could/should be tier three or four. IMHO

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...or tier5 so it can't be twisted. You want Dance of Flowers to go along your eSoS? Fine, but you must be in GmoF to get it, forget blitz! ;)

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Originally Posted by Delacroix21

Cordovan and Vargoville...


While there has been heated debate on nerfing certain builds, there has been almost NO debate that EE monsters need their HP, damage, saves, and to hit (to buff ac tanks) reduced.


Can we get a comment to acknowledge an issue 95% of the posts in this thread agree on?

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I debate that.


I have seen players blast away EE monsters is about 2 seconds.

Players put out so much DPS that you reduce monster abilities at all and you remove any challenge we have left in this game.

And I am not talking about my characters. My DPS takes me all year to beat one down alone.
But I have seen plenty of other players rush through EE like they were playing on casual.



But.... I do agree that something needs to be done to help most melee players take more hits in EE.

But seriously, we do not need to make this game any easier.




Now.... I have a ton of alts.
With various abilities.

Most can't really handle EEs.

My main..... despite most players considering him gimped... especially his DPS.
Despite only an AC of 77ish.
Despite only between 500-750ish HP depending on destiny....

I can actually take some hits on EE.

You need defensive gear... and my build has defensive buffs...like Displacement.

But EE "is" supposed to be difficult.


No... unless they do a serious nerf to DPS or other player abilities, monsters need to stay where they are.




I do support beefing up Armor for us though, to make melee more viable.





Actually..... about that armor.
My Rgr... light armor only.
Wiz, Sor... no armor.

All have powerful ranged attacks. The casters have the most.

Armor... HP.... stuff like that...
is suppose to be a trade off, that Fighters etc. have and the ranged guys do not.

Those EE mobs "should" be killing any Wizard they can get their mits on.

But... they should NOT be cutting down armored guys like they do now!



No.. the more I think about this, the more I come to the same conclusion.
Keep EE monster stats as they are.

Increase armor PRR. (and maybe AC as well, but it is not my goal to make melee guys invulnerable, just to make them last longer in combat.)

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Originally Posted by der_kluge

Quick fix:
Increase the bonus XP a quest gives for completing the quest without killing anyone (discreet/devious/insidious cunning). That will make rogues (sneak) CC casters (like bards) much more useful. It won't work in every quest - but if you could create that as a viable playstyle option, then I think people would maybe gravitate towards that.

Right now these bonuses are 5/7/10% respectively, which is woefully low. This is the harder option. Also, you'd probably have to make it so that if a bard fascinates, (for example) that you have the mob completely forget that it ever happened, so they don't go wander through the entire dungeon looking for the PC. That's going to be a ton of server load with all that active agro.


I spent a lot of time thinking about that solution. It's super easy, doesn't require class changes, but suddenly makes the game far more interesting and engaging. Classes that don't bring a lot of DPS to the table suddenly become viable options.

What makes a build weak is a combination of two things: DPS and survivability. Bards struggle because they aren't designed for massive DPS. Barbarians suffer, because they have no self-healing capabilities.

Second fix:
A barbarian's rage heals him for the duration of the rage.

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hate it how about rage boosts PRR and DR for duration of rage.

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Originally Posted by Uska

hate it how about rage boosts PRR and DR for duration of rage.

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is it ok if I agree with this..sorta? I can go along with rage increasing DR tied to class level, but at 20 would like to see a good increase that scales appropriately for epics. if its done right and theres good survivability, could give pause to players to either multi class or stay pure.

I like the idea better that someone else came up with having PRR tied to type of armor where heavy armor would offer the highest amount and those pajama wearers cant even come close. if DR is already scaling better for barbs, than the PRR from armor plus enhancements, etc to boost it would add to a better defense for them. this of course depends on how much reduction, if any, the devs do with epic mobs dps.

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Originally Posted by B0ltdrag0n

Monks are fine
Monk splashes are fine

The problem is few classes have any reason to stay in them beyond level 6. Very few

Barbarians Bards Paladin beyond 6 all need additional abilities added to the level part of the class not just trees. Of course they all need a third tree as well @_@

Capstones for all classes need to be significantly better, and by better I mean +2 to stat of choice, 2 feats, Evasion levels of better. It does not have to be those things exactly but it has to be on par to give 'choices'

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+2 to stat of choice isnt significantly better. +4 to stat of choice is significantly better. And there should be a +2 to stat of choice at level 18 as well.

Stay pure and get +6 to a stat over someone who goes multi-class (or +4 over someone who has a splash). That then provides a VERY big decision to the player.

As it is now, it is pretty much a no-brainer to go multi-class. Very few builds work best as pure.

And you Turbine guys really should be bugging sirgog to join the PC - even though he has said he isnt interested. Whether you agree with him or not, his posts are always incredibly well thought-out and generate a LOT of discussion.

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Originally Posted by Recared

I disagree with the diagnosis (although at least you tried to answer the question "why"): I don't think people is saying it's mobs hp that is causing those builds (there are more than it seems, but probably you refer to all succesful builds that are effective while ranging in whatever form) to be the only one viable -> no, it's the damage output they do that is too unmanageable for melees to stand and therefore contribute with their dps (which is perfectly fine) and enjoy the fun. There is a consensus. However, I have to say that some melee builds can still deal with that with some proper healing backup... Let's leave it there...

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I'm addressing monster power in general. How hard they hit is included. As for the melees "enjoying the fun" I don't know what exactly are you talking about. Sure, melees should not get close to dragons, casters etc. but they SHOULD get close to something that is not going to annihilate them. Otherwise they are USELESS and I don't see where the fun is in that. Also, people have been complaining about monster HP too. And the dev answer is (behind the curtains): "Nonsence, people are soloing top tier raids, and breezing through any content we make. HPs need a boost and damage needs to be a little harder. Also, let's harm those ranged toons somehow, they can't remain unharmed."
And even if they are not that evil (hehe), playerbase would start to complain about how easy new content is (based on max builds).
If you disagree here, tell me where and I might pull some examples of the countless threads that back my point. If you don't disagree, then everything written below is just not valid to counter what I said.

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Originally Posted by Recared

So you do not want to make your character more powerful by taking 1 class split or 2 that is available to you and therefore if someone is doing it it is overpowered? When an option is available to everyone, that is not overpowered. Another thing is whether it becomes gamebreaking. 2 monk breaks the game? why? Nonsense. Multiclassing should always be rewarding. why should a fighter 20 be as powerful as a 16/2/2 or 12/2/2? You even go further as to say it should be more powerful? Why?

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You are simply stating your opinion and not providing any answers or arguments yourself. "It's simply the way it has been, should be and will be." Sure. I can do the same. 2 monk breaks the game, multiclassing should never be rewarding, when an option is available to anyone it can also be overpowered. I have already replied to all 3 questions:
+ Multiclassing should be rewarding because it enables you to fill several roles and adapt easier to the circumstances.
- Multiclassing should not grant you every specialization you want. No specialization but more options.
+ Pure class should be rewarding because it enables you to specialize in a role and be the best at what you do.
- Pure class should not give you many options when it comes to filling roles. You can only do your part but you're **** good at it.

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Originally Posted by Recared

Multiclassing options are there, always have been, take more planning, and open so many possibilities. Sure, you don't want to multiclass, don't, and wait for someone to join the group to do some specific task you could have performed with some extra planning investment. Capstones are already good enough, they are a freebie that actually is debatable. "Give us an incentive to stay pure". Still, why?

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You still think I say "make multiclass worse than pure". Again, I'm not saying that. I'm saying is 1. "Make pure classes have more bonuses, less adaptivity" 2. "Make multiclass have less bonuses, more adaptivity". Currently pure classes don't have adaptivity and don't have bonuses. Multiclasses have bonuses and adaptivity. It's obvious what I'm proposing. If you strive for adaptivity and having multiple roles, multiclass is the way to go (Incentive for multiclass). If you want to be the best at what you love to do go pure class (Incentive for pure class). If there is an incentive for ONLY one of the choices then it's not really a choice.

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Originally Posted by Recared

If there is an item that goes in slot A and makes you way more effective, you can use it or not, that is your option, at the cost of using the slot, why should any other item have a similar level of power to your build. Some will be sinergetic and some won't. That's ok and fun. Well you could argue the same with PLs. Give us an incentive to stay single live!! Single Life toons should be as effective as completionists (free that feat already, come on!), "give as a reward for not having TRd". Seems like a twisted logic but it is not. The option is there and is available to you. You cannot choose to not take the available tools/options that the game provides to be more powerful/effective/efficient and then ask for your build to be as effective as the one that optimized all.

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I'm not even going to respond to that. Answer is quite obvious from above.

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Originally Posted by Ancient

I one shot EE mobs all the time with energy burst and I'm just a wizard. I've seen pure sorc draconics clear entire spawns (no survivors) on EE.


I've seen instakill work just fine in EEs... in fact, if DC casting gets much more of of a boost we are going to be back into the palemaster is a demi-god playbalance.

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My first life Pale Master (Wiz24) in Magester destiny was able to get his instakills to work in lower level EEs. Maybe 50% of the time depending on what type of mob I was going against.

Seems to me that all of those Completionist gear grinders should be close to 100% success.



I've seen plenty of Sorcs blast an entire room of EE mobs.
Not sure what they are using to do it. It is not Magic Missiles, it is acid and cold most often.
Might be Dragon Breath. Seems like it has a long cool down, cause they don't do it in every room.

But they do use it often, and it is very powerful.

Do you know what happens to a Cleric who takes two levels of Rog or Monk for Evasion?

He takes no damage from Ref save attacks when he rolls a............. "20"!!!


Yeah.. that's right. Because his Ref save is still ****.

Show me a Cleric who has enough stat points to put any into Dex.



People really overestimate Evasion... without any understanding of the fact that you also need to come up with a build that has a good Ref save to go along with it.





Oh... but he just has to add Pal2 to get that saves boost.


Uhmmmmm.... again. No understanding that Pal2 has only a small effect without a huge investment in Cha.
You know Cha? That "dump stat"!




Ok.... yes. A Sorc16/Mnk2/Pal (and add Blade forged for good measure)
Has some serious saves... and tons of other stuff.

But no one else gets nearly as much of a benefit from splashing Mnk2(or Rog20 and Pal2 as everyone makes it out to be.


Someone mentioned Epic ref.
Again... no understanding that you still need to get the saves up somehow.


Believe me.... EEs require some very high save numbers.

The average bear gets very little from splashing Mnk2/Rog2/ and Pal2.


But... Add Mnk6 into the picture....
or Mnk12.....

Start mixing some other stuff then....

Not sure the current best builds, but Pal2/Mnk6 or 12... maybe Rgr6, or Ftr6.....and now we are cooking with gas.


But.. is this a problem?

Monks have good saves in all three areas.
Add several Monk levels and you have good saves.

But so would a pure Monk.




Or add a bunch of levels of a class that has a high Ref save... and can work as a Dex build...
Then Evasion is pretty kick ass. Especially with Epic Ref.



Is this a problem?


Not if Turbine just adds some simple spell variety to their monsters....
(actually, it is more various than most people realize.. but.... I admit most monster cast very few spells that do not have a Ref save.)







I do think that splashing Mnk2 and Pal2 is a good idea. But doesn't do much unless you have something else to beef up those saves.










And for the record. I play Human Rgr11/Rog4/Wiz5(E8)... with a Ref save usually in the 70's..... re-read that.. No Pal or Monk levels, yet I have a ref save higher than most other players.

How do I know mine is higher?
I live (unscathed) and they die.

On the flip side... my Monk20(E4) with improved Evasion and a 40ish Ref save...... dies in EE traps.

Show me a Clr, or Ftr.... with Mnk2 and Pal2 that has better ref saves than my Monk. (yes I know they exist... just they are not as common as people act like they are.... how do I know... because they die!)


Evasion without the Ref save to go with it doesn't do much.
Classes with low Ref saves and no significant Dex investment don't gain much from Evasion.

Pal2 doesn't do much with low Cha.



You people who act like these splashes suddenly make a character a god don't really understand how things work.

I splashed 2 monk on a dwarf paladin life and only had 14 base dex. elite ETK fire elementals would only tickle me. I cant speak for the new content and how those 2 monk levels would have worked out, but I know it was pretty much the same way the little while I did some epics before I TR'd again. there wouldn't be so many of those 2 levels running around if it wasn't working out too well.

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Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow

You people who act like these splashes suddenly make a character a god don't really understand how things work.

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They don't make you a god automatically. They do give you the opportunity to make yourself a god.

I think you are underestimating how easy it is to get a high CHA or DEX or any other stat, even with no initial investment of build points. We live in the days of +10 stat items, +5/6 tomes, easy exceptional/insightful gear, enhancement trees and EDs, etc. It is very possible to get high values even on secondary stats like CHA.

The problem is then that the hardest content is balanced around these "god-like" abilities. As has been said by many throughout this thread, any nerf to character abilities would need to be accompanied by nerfs to the high level content.

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Originally Posted by Uska

Actually in pnp monks are allowed to multiclass but once they take any class other than monk after their first monk level they may no,longer gain. Monk levels if they did that here it might reduce some people splashing monk but not many.

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Fair enough, I just went back over the entry on the d20 srd (friend has my PHB atm) and yeah they can multi, and disturbingly keep all of their monk abilities from doing so, even if they become unlawful. Now it would appear the PnP monk is equally as broken as the DDO one, lol.

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Originally Posted by Zuka

Now it would appear the PnP monk is equally as broken as the DDO one, lol.

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Not by a long shot. PnP monk is one of the least powerful classes of the core (IIRC, only Fighter is lower), but it is still an amazing splash class on PnP, just not for the same reasons it is a good splash class on DDO. Most monkish builds in 3.5 that worked used one or two monk levels, then jumped into a prestige class that raised unarmed damage and flurry.

DDO buffed monks up a lot. Attack speed, elemental stances, a usable Flurry, full BAB while using monk weaponry/unarmed, healing amplification, and the original prestige benefits (Shintao DR bypass, Ninja shadow veil), alongside the stat inflation that permeates DDO made monk vastly more powerful than the original class.