named item drop rates are miserable

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10-08-2019, 10:24 PM
TedSandyman

The whole point of the game is to grind gear and lives until you are so strong the game holds no challenge for you.

Everyone knows that. Anything else is just dumb sentimentality.

If you can't kill 10 things with every attack you just have entirely missed the point of DDO.

You really just need to grind more.

The only real challenge to this game IS how good a grinder are you.

The best and fastest grinders are the ones who are the best at the game.

Content is nothing. Fast XP or powerful items that allow you to get XP faster is all that matters.

It's sad because this is such a good game otherwise.
10-08-2019, 11:56 PM
Tilomere

Quote:

Originally Posted by Potatofasf

The way to someone run solo EE or Er1 is to farm itens on LN and LH, or PIKE in groups begging for scraps that other people already has

No, you don't want to start by farming EE or legendary items. That doesn't allow you to level in heroics or epics and get past lives while farming gear because your character will be ungeared and too weak to do so. You want to first farm the heroic gear set(s) for your build(s). Then optimize a lvl 15-21 gear set around that heroic set, which will allow you to level in epics and legendary.

A cap alt is amazing for farming items while your other characters level.

That optimized set of level 15-21 gear may allow a well-built character on an up to date build to solo legendary reaper Sharn around level 21 (maybe EE or EH for weaker builds and characters), which is then when and how you get the epic gear sets over several epic lives.

Don't pike, don't beg for scraps. Assemble a level 15-21 gear set of Death and Destruction, then go get your own gear as you do epic past lives. Any level 30 character, even a first life, should have no problem in heroic elite Sharn farming gear or collectibles for Cannith Crafting. The epic and legendary gear you really don't need and will barely use anyways for past lives since it is mostly level 29.

My characters did a half dozen epic past lives with a ton of Sharn before even having the legendary sets to use at 29. Which didn't bother me at all, because the foundation 15-21 gear set was solid, and a 29 set is barely used.

A lot of people try to skip steps. They try to skip to legendary without mastering the heroic and low epic item base, or they try to skip to reaper without mastering elite. Or they try to skip to heroic reaper Sharn without a solid heroic cannith/rl set. The game just doesn't work like that.
10-09-2019, 01:35 AM
Anasu

Quote:

Originally Posted by droid327

Drop rates arent that bad, stastically. You have a 1-in-12 chance of getting any named item you're looking for, in the Sharn style of quest design. That means, on average, you run a quest 12 times to get your item of interest, which isnt bad in the long run.

The problem is that while that's balanced statistically, which is good for the whole population (which is how they should balance quest design), it does create edge cases where you're left out running 40+ times for a single item (like me, chasing the heroic Family Recruit Sigil...)

That's immensely unsatisfying for the people who dont have RNGsus' blessings. There probably should be a safety net built into content like Sharn, where the items and especially the set bonuses are so important to defining your basic functionality in many builds and so you can really get stuck in a logjam if that last item just wont drop for you.

I wouldnt mind seeing a third-completion full list like Threnal, or being able to trade in Sharn mats for named items. Basically, by the time you've done 27 quests and still dont have it (ie 10% of people grinding an item at 1-in-12 chances), you should get your item if you havent found it yet. That wont push the average completions-per-acquisition down too much, so it keeps the statistics the same for the population, but it removes those unfortunate people stuck out on the tail of the binomial curve.

Of course you are right. Across the "broad" base of this MassivelyMulti-playerOnlineRPG chances for loot in Sharn runs about 8%. Here is the thing though...why keep it RNG at all? So a few people on one end of the curve get the hell beat out of them on loot while the winners on the other end benefit from the misery that balances their benefit? Now to be clear, my luck is middling, but I understand the frustration. It IS needlessly complicated to follow a "grading on a curve" mentality, especially considering the nature of the GAME. So I will propose yet again, a universal token system where access to loot can be throttled by frequency and quantity of drop rate for tokens and cost of items in tokens. This can be done. The system is already in play; the "newer" raid loot menus. Eliminate the 1:12 common drops, and leave the chances for mythic/reaper intact, perhaps even adding incredibly slight chances to be hit by lightning twice in the same spot on the same day on normal for these drops.

Using your example of about 8% drop rate, calling it your 1:12, and pulling a token cost for an item from my behind...

Loot Item A from Sharn costs 120 UniTokens (set by Item Budget). 10 Unitokens for Sharn (Level Appropriate for Loot Item A) quest completion. 12 Completions nets 120 UniTokens. Go to quest giver, trade tokens for loot.

The item still has to be earned. There is still a chance at that .01% efficiency upgrade the "top tier" player desires from a mythic/reaper bonus, and there is light at the end of every tunnel for the "casuals." Not to mention, there would less desire to hammer one quest out repeatedly for the benefit of the loot. Have we not already had this problem with experience awards in quests? As long as there is incentive to play a particular quest for a particular item for your particular build this particular life...well you get the point. A token system broadens the options for play as well.

TLDR;

Fix with a Universal Token System for Non-Raid Loot, and one Universal Token System for Raid Loot.
10-09-2019, 02:20 AM
BigErkyKid

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anasu

Of course you are right. Across the "broad" base of this MassivelyMulti-playerOnlineRPG chances for loot in Sharn runs about 8%. Here is the thing though...why keep it RNG at all? So a few people on one end of the curve get the hell beat out of them on loot while the winners on the other end benefit from the misery that balances their benefit? Now to be clear, my luck is middling, but I understand the frustration. It IS needlessly complicated to follow a "grading on a curve" mentality, especially considering the nature of the GAME. So I will propose yet again, a universal token system where access to loot can be throttled by frequency and quantity of drop rate for tokens and cost of items in tokens. This can be done. The system is already in play; the "newer" raid loot menus. Eliminate the 1:12 common drops, and leave the chances for mythic/reaper intact, perhaps even adding incredibly slight chances to be hit by lightning twice in the same spot on the same day on normal for these drops.

Using your example of about 8% drop rate, calling it your 1:12, and pulling a token cost for an item from my behind...

Loot Item A from Sharn costs 120 UniTokens (set by Item Budget). 10 Unitokens for Sharn (Level Appropriate for Loot Item A) quest completion. 12 Completions nets 120 UniTokens. Go to quest giver, trade tokens for loot.

The item still has to be earned. There is still a chance at that .01% efficiency upgrade the "top tier" player desires from a mythic/reaper bonus, and there is light at the end of every tunnel for the "casuals." Not to mention, there would less desire to hammer one quest out repeatedly for the benefit of the loot. Have we not already had this problem with experience awards in quests? As long as there is incentive to play a particular quest for a particular item for your particular build this particular life...well you get the point. A token system broadens the options for play as well.

TLDR;

Fix with a Universal Token System for Non-Raid Loot, and one Universal Token System for Raid Loot.

That won’t happen.

The whole reward on a roll scheme apparently is better to mental hack us to run content more often. Pure casino level hacks.

They partially undid it for raids because I bet their data showed they aren’t run much.

That said, ddo removed some of the luck elements from grinds already with the whole xp based grind. I guess for some people the appeal of running relatively easy stuff to no end is enough of a mental hack to get the hooked. There is no denying that there is a grinder fraction of players across any mmo.

I am also surprised that lots of players tring to no end do so because they are optimizing for an end build, when it is clear there is no end game in ddo not there has been for many years. Whatever, it works and ssg rides it hard.

Loot chances are a gimmick to extend gameplay beyond the point of replay ability based on fun. Of course it is painful to have to wait for that drop, it is not a system designed to create fun by rather hook you.
10-09-2019, 07:04 AM
Opener

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tilomere

No, you don't want to start by farming EE or legendary items. That doesn't allow you to level in heroics or epics and get past lives while farming gear because your character will be ungeared and too weak to do so. You want to first farm the heroic gear set(s) for your build(s). Then optimize a lvl 15-21 gear set around that heroic set, which will allow you to level in epics and legendary.

A cap alt is amazing for farming items while your other characters level.

That optimized set of level 15-21 gear may allow a well-built character on an up to date build to solo legendary reaper Sharn around level 21 (maybe EE or EH for weaker builds and characters), which is then when and how you get the epic gear sets over several epic lives.

Don't pike, don't beg for scraps. Assemble a level 15-21 gear set of Death and Destruction, then go get your own gear as you do epic past lives. Any level 30 character, even a first life, should have no problem in heroic elite Sharn farming gear or collectibles for Cannith Crafting. The epic and legendary gear you really don't need and will barely use anyways for past lives since it is mostly level 29.

My characters did a half dozen epic past lives with a ton of Sharn before even having the legendary sets to use at 29. Which didn't bother me at all, because the foundation 15-21 gear set was solid, and a 29 set is barely used.

A lot of people try to skip steps. They try to skip to legendary without mastering the heroic and low epic item base, or they try to skip to reaper without mastering elite. Or they try to skip to heroic reaper Sharn without a solid heroic cannith/rl set. The game just doesn't work like that.

lol If isn't Tilo trying to sell onde of his builds...
10-09-2019, 08:11 AM
Alrik_Fassbauer

The week before last week I was doing the Lordsmarch Plaza quests ... And I was quite surprised that I didn't get Named Loot even in the rewards list ... But on the other hand this might have been WAI since I was playing that series (plus Sentinels Of Stormreach not much later) through with a level 15 character ...
I think I got only 1 Named Item through a chest box ... Later, in "Sentinels", a bit more.
10-09-2019, 08:19 AM
Robbenklopper

It's the eternal grinding that totally made me disappointed and caused my absence to the game for the past 3 months.
I ran a two dozen R1 Sharn cycles on 3 toons without completing a set for each one. Not even talking about raid gear to replace the regular nameds. Running quests over and over and over made me sick while sinking my spare time on can-be-loot, mostly ending up with nothing in my hands. That was bearable some years ago while "actual" lacking named loot still could be bought at the AH. Not-tradeble LGS made it worse and anything new went BtA anyway As long as DDO doesn't support guaranteed loot or trade-in or arc-choice endrewards to choose from without massive grind, I've stopped my activities here. Running a quest 10x is my acceptable limit. Actual concept is out of my taste.
10-09-2019, 08:47 AM
janave

No good alternatives is what makes it so painful.

- Old content named items are often many grades behind. Plus sometimes is even more grindy to get... old era droprates... SSS loot...
- Crafting is many grades behind
- Random loot both many grades behind, and well, ehr being random...with little player interaction ( bad game economy) to help out with large samples to pick from.
- Raid loot with the recent passes are fine, altho it is extra rare to find groups as a PUGist/Soloist, and some players just dont find the content fun to play.
- Challenge loot is many grades behind, and uneven across the level ranges
- Event loot for the most part is many grades behind
- Shop vendor loot is many grades behind, sorry I mean it doesnt exists and was never a thing, even tho it is pretty much a standard RPG feature ___O___O___

Start to see the pattern yet? :)

Opinion
- Sets are too powerful, they are mostly mandatory pieces for a decent layout. I think some of that power should overlap with past live typed bonuses, so if one grinds out the PLs, they can free themselves from the set limitations, others may find it better to just accept the gear grind vs the PL grind.
10-09-2019, 08:58 AM
BigErkyKid

Quote:

Originally Posted by janave

No good alternatives is what makes it so painful.

- Old content named items are often many grades behind. Plus sometimes is even more grindy to get... old era droprates... SSS loot...
- Crafting is many grades behind
- Random loot both many grades behind, and well, ehr being random...with little player interaction ( bad game economy) to help out with large samples to pick from.
- Raid loot with the recent passes are fine, altho it is extra rare to find groups as a PUGist/Soloist, and some players just dont find the content fun to play.
- Challenge loot is many grades behind, and uneven across the level ranges
- Event loot for the most part is many grades behind
- Shop vendor loot is many grades behind, sorry I mean it doesnt exists and was never a thing, even tho it is pretty much a standard RPG feature ___O___O___

Start to see the pattern yet? :)

Opinion
- Sets are too powerful, they are mostly mandatory pieces for a decent layout. I think some of that power should overlap with past live typed bonuses, so if one grinds out the PLs, they can free themselves from the set limitations, others may find it better to just accept the gear grind vs the PL grind.

Yes, it is op wrt other option.

But what truly makes it bad is that the quests in Sharn have fewer interesting optionally than ravenloft. They lack inherent replay value, with several corridor to end line quests. Even the new free pack has more effort into it.

They refuse to give us arenas, randomizes challenges or other more competition oriented quests. Them, they craft quests with zero replay value (linear, bio locks, one solution, no randomization) and give us xp or gear grinds to keep us wpplaying.

Are we still in 2009?
10-09-2019, 09:38 AM
Drunkendex

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedSandyman

The whole point of the game is to grind gear and lives until you are so strong the game holds no challenge for you.

Everyone knows that. Anything else is just dumb sentimentality.

If you can't kill 10 things with every attack you just have entirely missed the point of DDO.

You really just need to grind more.

The only real challenge to this game IS how good a grinder are you.

The best and fastest grinders are the ones who are the best at the game.

Content is nothing. Fast XP or powerful items that allow you to get XP faster is all that matters.

It's sad because this is such a good game otherwise.

Sad but accurate.

200% accurate...
10-09-2019, 09:57 AM
Loholt-UK

Quote:

Originally Posted by Potatofasf

The way to someone run solo EE or Er1 is to farm itens on LN and LH, or PIKE in groups begging for scraps that other people already has (I'm not against that... it is just not practical anymore)... but... surprise surprise... high level named itens (L26 to L29) are praised to feed sentient Jewels... so Go beg for itens elsewhere NOOB. Get Gud or Get Lost!

I used to put all epic named items that I was not going to use up for roll until I found one or two individuals who would roll for anything and everything. When I challenge this stance and say, for example, "is a rogue going to use that named heavy armour" I am regularly told that it is for their next life but I checked and their next life is the same as the last life, they're just stealing my sentient food. So my choices are: be a mug and let them or don't be a mug and feed my weapon. If someone genuinely needs an item they should say so on entering the dungeon - under these circumstances I will happily pass any item that I'm not looking for, but if you only suddenly "need" the item when you see it in the chest then I'm dubious and think you're stealing my sentient food.
10-09-2019, 10:07 AM
Potatofasf

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loholt-UK

I used to put all epic named items that I was not going to use up for roll until I found one or two individuals who would roll for anything and everything. When I challenge this stance and say, for example, "is a rogue going to use that named heavy armour" I am regularly told that it is for their next life but I checked and their next life is the same as the last life, they're just stealing my sentient food. So my choices are: be a mug and let them or don't be a mug and feed my weapon. If someone genuinely needs an item they should say so on entering the dungeon - under these circumstances I will happily pass any item that I'm not looking for, but if you only suddenly "need" the item when you see it in the chest then I'm dubious and think you're stealing my sentient food.

I do understand you fully and agree with your assessment. Is the actual state of the game.
What I said before that the "group effect" in DDO has dead a long time ago. The Hamster Wheel, Grind and PaytoWin Walls, development choices had put the game on a state of greedy and hoarding behavior, nothing is enough and all is too little for some players.

Some of us, prefer to solo than be "competing" with greeders and hoarders.
10-09-2019, 10:20 AM
Drunkendex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Potatofasf

Some of us, prefer to solo than be "competing" with greeders and hoarders.

One of the reasons I prefer solo play.
10-09-2019, 11:16 AM
SynalonEtuul

Sharn and RL droprate is incredibly high compared to most content in this game...let alone most other MMOs.
10-09-2019, 11:37 AM
Fivetigers33

I have to agree.

Did R4-R6 Mines of Tethyamar chain and didn't get a single named item.

I've also run into the Thunderholme raid chest bug more than anyone else I know, where nothing (no threads, ingots, scales, runes, or raid items) drops in my raid chests.

This is what I get while a buddy has pulled like 15 schism shards... If it weren't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all.
10-09-2019, 11:41 AM
Thrudh

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigErkyKid

I am also surprised that lots of players tring to no end do so because they are optimizing for an end build, when it is clear there is no end game in ddo not there has been for many years. Whatever, it works and ssg rides it hard.

Explain "end-game" in any MMO, please. There's certainly an end-game in DDO, and it's the same as most MMOs.

I like hanging out at cap, and working on gear, and when I get the gear, testing myself on hard content at mid-to-high reaper, while continuing to advance my character gaining reaper xp and sentient food.

That's end-game. It's fun. Tough quests, my character is all "done", and yet still advancing.

AND, when I want a change of pace, I can TR and start over, usually with a new character build that plays differently from what I was just running.

What exactly do you guys want for "end-game"?
10-09-2019, 11:43 AM
Thrudh

Quote:

Originally Posted by janave

Opinion
- Sets are too powerful, they are mostly mandatory pieces for a decent layout. I think some of that power should overlap with past live typed bonuses, so if one grinds out the PLs, they can free themselves from the set limitations, others may find it better to just accept the gear grind vs the PL grind.

I agree with this, and I like your solution idea.
10-09-2019, 11:44 AM
acemonkey

Quote:

Originally Posted by SynalonEtuul

Sharn and RL droprate is incredibly high compared to most content in this game...let alone most other MMOs.

Yes, higher than other MMOs typical droprates, but not high compared to rest of the game really, could maybe say that in 2014 or something, but going way back the game has had the same droprate that we've seen in RL/Sharn, and then only in higher difficulties.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post6091545

Most of the game is now 10/16/33%, you have to go back to S/S/S/Jack Jibbers/MOTU era to see low droprates, that or play normal/hard, which in the modern 5 items per mission era would result in 2 or 3% chance of getting the item you want per run. That means 30 to 50 solo runs per item, assuming average luck. I find running in a group and doing elite and reaper really warps droprate perception, you end up seeing the item you want dropping once every 3 runs on average in a full group doing elite/reaper. 33%+ chance times 6 players divided by 5 items, 39.6% chance to see your item in the chest each run. Given item sharing is common among fixed groups, guild groups and friends, and you could end up with whatever you want in literally 1/10th the chests compared to the hard/normal soloer, and you tend to get those chests far faster while making some decent xp/rxp as well. Even an elite duo will get the items 4x faster than a hard soloer, assuming different gear plans.

The n/h/e droprate strategy pays off really well for elite connected players, but I can still remember way back when I had a rough time in hard and hated the 2 to 3% droprate with a passion. Maybe it's time to change the droprate to 15/24/33 or something. New players need some help, and shouldn't need to build a strategy around mooching to enjoy the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by janave

Opinion
- Sets are too powerful, they are mostly mandatory pieces for a decent layout. I think some of that power should overlap with past live typed bonuses, so if one grinds out the PLs, they can free themselves from the set limitations, others may find it better to just accept the gear grind vs the PL grind.

That idea is DOA, SSG won't go for it. They want to sell us the powerful new set and the PL grind both. If you only need one or the other it becomes a much less likely sale.
10-09-2019, 11:50 AM
SpartanKiller13

Quote:

Originally Posted by krimsonrane

We all know farming is a huge time sink grind and a bigger turnoff to game play. So why is there an argument?

Because it doesn't have to be, and it isn't most of the time for most of us. EE with a party of 6 pulls 12x as many named items as EH solo. We all have our white whales, but I farmed out 6 RL items in a single gaming session when setting up for my previous TR. Only one of them did I have to swap toons for.

Something like LSlaveLords or LGS you can talk about, but even LSL was just price-reduced massively to where it's probably worth farming a bit for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tilomere

No, you don't want to start by farming EE or legendary items. That doesn't allow you to level in heroics or epics and get past lives while farming gear because your character will be ungeared and too weak to do so. You want to first farm the heroic gear set(s) for your build(s). Then optimize a lvl 15-21 gear set around that heroic set, which will allow you to level in epics and legendary.

A lot of people try to skip steps. They try to skip to legendary without mastering the heroic and low epic item base, or they try to skip to reaper without mastering elite. Or they try to skip to heroic reaper Sharn without a solid heroic cannith/rl set. The game just doesn't work like that.

+1 this. You need to have some stuff to get more stuff; otherwise you'll need to get carried by people who do have said stuff.
10-09-2019, 11:52 AM
psykopeta

Quote:

Originally Posted by Opener

lol If isn't Tilo trying to sell onde of his builds...

if all those who talk about tilo's builds, just tried them... they would discover a whole new DDO, that build does at 21 what most builds can't do at cap lol

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