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Be sure to take heighten. It is MUCH more valuable than extra turning, and arguably more valuable than spell focus evoc, because it raises DCs on all spells, usually more than spell focus evoc does, except for implosion.
So, drop extra turning and take heighten. Or if you are strangely fascinated by extra turning (which, is garbage, but some people just get fixated by some things) then drop greater spell focus evoc and take heighten.
You will want heighten.
I never use Mass Heal. I'd rather spend the feats raising the DC on my Implosion and Destruction.Quote:
Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off
I'm plenty aggressive as I solo most of the time. In party, there is almost no situation that calls for the tactic you describe that can't be handled just as well with other spells (Implosion, Comet Fall). I can still drop BB at will without being the first one to grab aggro. If the party isn't smart enough to use them well...Quote:
Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off
I'm sure I'm in the minority though, as I've laughably been refused entry to a group for not carrying quicken. My guess is because people think you also have to use Mass Heal.
You don't *have* to use Mass Heal but as it is roughly twice as efficient as your next best healing spell I can't understand why you wouldn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by rpasell
Especially when you get to some epic quests your concentration simply can't be good enough to prevent interruption should you want to heal yourself or your party and you happen to get smacked. I'm all for the quicken being optional on an encounter by encounter basis but I wouldn't exclude it from a character who could cause a party wipe in the event of an interrupted spell.
Sounds like I'll want Heighten at higher levels, when I have more turns anyway. Right now, I just hit level 6 and reset my enhancements to get RS1 right away. Only had 4 turns per rest, so I saw Fred and swapped out Mental Toughness for Extra Turning. Double turns (4 to 8) makes running Delera's very easy and fun. It's great right now, but at higher level I can see Fred again.Quote:
Originally Posted by HarveyMilk
Sounds like an excellent idea. I haven't added this to my build yet, but will plan on doing so by the time I hit level 7.Quote:
Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off
I hope you didn't use your free feat swap. Radiant Servant Burst is amazing with empower healing, ardor (it's a 5th level spell so ardor V or better) and maximise active. Really blows through quests like Delera's.Quote:
Originally Posted by downeast
I used my free feat swap to lose Mental Toughness and get Extra Turning. Already have Empower Healing and Maximize. I also have a Superior Ardor V clicky, and yes, I've used it in Delera's and it was a blast! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off
I see what you mean about the free feat swap though. Should have saved it for the level 12 swap. Oh well :( May LR before that point anyway.
It's not necessarily a lost cause. Feat swaps level 12 and below aren't going to break your bank and when you get to 75 argonnessen favour (from running GH) you can sometimes (always?) get a flawless shard now.Quote:
Originally Posted by downeast
Still, I'd drop any unneeded feats before you level up to 13. It won't be painful, you'll have Blade Barrier :)
Thanks for all the advice, BTW. I was editing my post right when you posted your reply. Starting to lean toward a lesser reincarnate.Quote:
Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off
A guildie asked me about making a 28 point version of this build, so here is what I came up with. I didn't include tomes, but if INT is raised then Balance can get the extra skill points. CON could be dropped back to 14 and INT raised to 12.
Edit 8/31/11 - Dumped Diplomacy and added Balance based on advice from this forum. :)
Code:Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.09.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page
Castine TwentyEight
Level 20 True Neutral Human Female
(20 Cleric)
Hit Points: 282
Spell Points: 1518
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 15
Reflex: 5
Will: 19
Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 9 9
Dexterity 8 8
Constitution 15 16
Intelligence 10 10
Wisdom 17 24
Charisma 12 14
Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 0.5 10
Bluff 1 2
Concentration 6 26
Diplomacy 1 2
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 1 2
Heal 3 9
Hide -1 -1
Intimidate 1 2
Jump -1 -1
Listen 3 7
Move Silently -1 -1
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 0
Search 0 0
Spot 3 7
Swim -1 -1
Tumble 0 0
Use Magic Device 2.5 13
Level 1 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+1.5)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1.5)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Empower Healing Spell
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality I
Level 2 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom I
Level 3 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Improved Heal I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life I
Level 4 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Empower Healing I
Enhancement: Improved Heal II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
Level 5 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Turning I
Level 6 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Heighten Spell
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot II
Level 7 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Level 8 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery I
Level 9 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning I
Level 10 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot III
Level 11 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic IV
Level 12 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant II
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom II
Level 13 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Cleric Charisma I
Level 14 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery II
Level 15 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Evocation
Enhancement: Cleric Charisma II
Level 16 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality II
Level 17 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning II
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning III
Level 18 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Focus: Evocation
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot IV
Level 19 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Level 20 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Intervention
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Turning II
Quote:
Originally Posted by downeast
First glimpse I would lower Chr to 10, and strength to 8 and put the points into Con to get that to 16, it is more important than the other two in my opinion. Yes it is nice to have those extra turns, but you can add in enhancements to get them and 9 strength does nothing good. While 16 con will give you a few more hp starting out and more at each level up.
ETA: Oh and I would take balance first on a first life cleric, then if possible diplomacy.
If you look at level 6, I get the CON to 16 with Human Adaptability. As for STR, AFAIK, it is the only abililty that does have a benefit at odd numbers. It increases carry capacity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mubjon
about diplo, on paper losing agro might seem to be a no-brainer but this is not a cookie-cutter game and if you are pugging you might often find that its actually more efficient to gain and retain agro and heal yourself rather then others, since things like fort, ac, dr, blur, heal amp/healers friend, avoiding damage through blocking and tumbling los and simply moving, having enough hps to survive spike dps ect are all things that you can control through your own gear and actions, its often easier to anticipate and mitigate inc dps on yourself.
And as an added bonus, you're always in range and never out of los =D
And eventually down the line you may use items such as conq op and torque.
Of course you could also use diplo while learning the ropes and gearing up, and then lr later.
I dont think that diplo is bad or anything, and in new content its apparently going to be a more meaningful skill for non sneak-attack types due to dialogue options, it just has diminishing returns as an enduring (combat) skill to worry about on a cleric in my experience.
A divine caster is more of a living god then a delicate flower imo.
Right, but when you level you get bonus HP based on the base con, not the con with items or buffs. At least that is what I remember from when I was messing around with leveling on my cleric, I would get extra hp based solely on the base not the end number. So Cleric is D8 for hit points, with a 16 stat you will get 11 hp, and a 15 you get 10. Yes it is only 1 hp but over the course of a life that adds up. Far more beneficial to a first life cleric to have that extra few hp than 9 strength when you can get items to increase that and increase your carrying capacity.Quote:
Originally Posted by downeast
Same goes for skills, first life as a cleric (if you have not played before and even then it is a great skill to have) balance should not be neglected. First skill to max out should be concentration, then balance, then other skills like jump, UMD, diplomacy etc. As well a first life cleric should not raise intelligence that high, especially on a human, unless they already have 16 con and 17 or 18 Wisdom.
Of course your play style will differ but if I was creating a 28 point cleric I would not neglect balance and even on my 32 and soon to be TR'd 34 pt my balance is going to be close to 30, and concentration is at around 35 with items and all stats bonuses. The difference is that in the 34 pt build i have enough to raise my intelligence and not neglect my main stats (Wis will be 40 and con will be 26 at level 20) and get those extra points to raise UMD and diplomacy to usable levels (UMD will be 28 to 30 and Diplomacy will be 45).
In my opinion a cleric that is on his or her back to long is not going to help anyone and that is where balance comes in.
I can agree here and I have only found diplomacy useful in a few situations on my sorc. My cleric hardly ever has that problem. I can see diplomacy being useful though if you happen to grab aggro and need to heal the other members of the party, so passing off the boss in that situation would be best.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yagi
Of course if you cleric is built properly to handle a few hits then yeah keeping aggro might work out best.
Well, you (and others) have convinced me on Balance, but I'm fairly certain (and the character planner shows) that enhancement-based CON increases give all retroactive hit points. If you mouse over the CON in-game, these increases show up as feat increases, not enhancements. Editing the build with Balance back and Diplo dumped. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mubjon
I think you will be happy with balance, and if you can grab a +2 tome of int by level 7 and then you can pump up diplomacy as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by downeast
As far as con, it has been a long time since I had to increase my con through enhancements, might have to check it out in game and see if there is a difference between hp gained from level to level. I am not saying how it shows up in the game, I just do not think it gives you extra HP at level up. Of course that could be because as a cleric you do not get constitution increases for enhancements other than racial toughness. So I will have to create a human cleric and then take the first available con enhancement I am given (you get 1) to make my con even and see.
For the record I always put my con at 16 on the clerics I build so no need to grab that +1 as all level ups go to wisdom anyway.
I appreciate your advice. :) The 28-point build is for someone else, as I have 32-point builds, but I went back and modified my working build (the character I'm actually playing now) to max out Balance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mubjon
I knew that :) I am truly going to try it out and see if the con enhancements work to increase hp at level up. If they do then I will have to rethink the TR build I am working on as I am going to go human this time around.Quote:
Originally Posted by downeast
Just had the idea that it might make sense to drop UMD and INT for more CHA/WIS (haven't planned it out at all yet). Then by taking Half-Elf Dilettante: Sorcerer and enhancements to boost sorcerer level to 10 for scroll/wand use. Not that I want to start over right now as a half-elf, but it might work. Thoughts?
Edit: First shot at half-elf version:
Code:Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.09.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page
Castine Half Elf
Level 20 True Neutral Half-Elf Female
(20 Cleric)
Hit Points: 312
Spell Points: 1576
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 6
Will: 21
Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 8 10
Dexterity 8 10
Constitution 15 18
Intelligence 10 12
Wisdom 18 28
Charisma 14 18
Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance -1 10
Bluff 2 4
Concentration 6 27
Diplomacy 2 16
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 2 4
Heal 4 11
Hide -1 0
Intimidate 2 4
Jump 0 1
Listen 4 9
Move Silently -1 0
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 1
Search 0 1
Spot 4 9
Swim -1 0
Tumble 0 1
Use Magic Device n/a n/a
Level 1 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Feat: (Half-Elf Dilettante) Half-Elf Dilettante: Sorcerer
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot I
Level 2 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality I
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning I
Level 3 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
Enhancement: Improved Heal I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery I
Level 4 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Empower Healing I
Enhancement: Improved Heal II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
Level 5 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Turning I
Level 6 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant I
Level 7 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Improved Sorcerer Dilettante I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Wisdom I
Level 8 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot II
Level 9 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Heighten Spell
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III
Enhancement: Cleric Charisma I
Level 10 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Enhancement: Improved Sorcerer Dilettante II
Level 11 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic IV
Level 12 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant II
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom II
Level 13 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Constitution I
Level 14 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Charisma II
Level 15 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Level 16 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Enhancement: Improved Sorcerer Dilettante III
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning II
Level 17 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot III
Level 18 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Evocation
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot IV
Level 19 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality II
Level 20 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+2)
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Intervention
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III