Casters vs Melee

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Originally Posted by Aspenor

With exceptions made for Ghosts of Perdition, and Temple of Vol (especially as originally released) I don't see that melee has been exceptionally marginalized.

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I would also say certainly that melee are very marginalized in the inferno where the goal is to not to kill but to cc what kind of cc abilities does a melee have in comparison to casters, bards, clerics, etc so what is a melee character supposed to do in that quest - stare at the mobs funny.. The rulers of the fleshmakers labratory are clerics. Their blade barriors cut through the mobs like ribbons, but of course there is the unmeelable air elementals and red name air elemental especiall reserved for the casters firewall or I guess can be ranged if you want to wait 5 times as long... The pre-raid has some meleish components to it, but I have run in all caster/cleric groups before in there especially if it is an elite run not for completion just for the two chests in one of sections (by the way casters can just recall out there for their unlimited amount of mana)... Running around in the orchard soloing well I have done a fair amount with my battle bard, but really casters rule that roost. The way to loot some chests and pick up the tapastries if your bored well log on your caster and solo the orchard. The entire mod 5 is about casters and clerics and if mod6 is the same you will probably lose some customers Turbine which I think even the casters and clerics would be concerned about..

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Originally Posted by The Truth

If you cant beat them join them.

Casters are know as the cannons of the game, weak but does crazy damage. Accept it and move on or make one for yourself.

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I do not feel a caster is really weak in any way, considering the the idea is not going toe-to-toe... you can build them with enough HP and AC to get the job done, Consider this... on a wizard, Dex 22, Con 18 to 20, Int 32+, meta-magics of max, emp, heighten and extend, added feats greater spell penetration, Improved mental now add on , heavy fort item, Greater false life, Now top with spells, Greater Heroism, resists, Blur, Displacement, Stoneskin... even before adding an item with toughness on it the base HP after favor is what 164 to 186 then +14 from GH = 178 to 200hp then DR10 for 140hp and even topping with a 30AC + displacement and blur think about it that's really equivalent to a unbuffed 50ac tank as far as chance of getting hit... and when it is hit you're speaking of the equal of up to 340 hp it's carrying around. The goal tatctic however is they never need to go toe-to-toe they toss out CC via dancing sphere, hold monster, etc... then pick off the mobs. Toss on enlarge and the mob never need be agro'd. Mind you it's a game of management, watching your sp and hp pool, do you need melee... grab some from a safe distance - mass charm is enough to keep the mob busy within itself. A caster played intelligently is a character who's versitility is it's power. The other night someone got upset with me because I knocked the bloody gate in TBF even... I did not know he had 2 lvls of rogue.

Not a complete list but certainly a base:
GoP - fw, chill touch, disintigrate
Inferno - fear, dancing sphere, Disintigrate, Cone of cold
FLesh makers - mass charm, Fire wall, Disintigrate, enervation, pk or fod
Near any Giant Hold - mass charms, dancing sphere, Fire wall, PK, Enervation, fod

The real issue here is that on an average... players are less considerate of those they play with. The Dwaven Pally chasing down the caster only to have it FOD'd as he takes his first swing is going to get frustrated. The Intimidating tank who's presses his intimidate button is going to get frustrated when the mob coming to him gets charmed before reaching him... The Barbarian in the doorway will get upset when you tell him stop swinging the mobs in the fw and you hurry the mob along to it's demise with a single fireball.

DnD does not require any class... however some classes are better suited and well rounded to perform certain actions. The casting classes can and do aquire a way to 'do near it all'. As players we must change our playing styles so everyone feels like they're bringing something of value to a group, either that or the game needs to be balanced into forcing us to do so.

Last night I helped run favor for a group of guildies in house K ... opening vons elite for them. I brought my old favor runner Emilee (fighter 14 favor capped, thought the rest not far behind). My dear friend Wizgoddess said to me when we were thru - "Emilee was a killer build back in mod 3. Sgail (my wizard) is the bomb now right?"

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Originally Posted by The Truth

If you cant beat them join them.

Casters are know as the cannons of the game, weak but does crazy damage. Accept it and move on or make one for yourself.

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And this is exactly my point.

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Originally Posted by The Truth

If you cant beat them join them.

Casters are know as the cannons of the game, weak but does crazy damage. Accept it and move on or make one for yourself.

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Big difference between one or two classes being a cannon and the other classes becoming unecessary. We are heading in the unecessary direction. It is alot less fun when my choices for joining a group or forming a group become wiz, sorc, cleric and bard maybe for kicks...

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Originally Posted by maddmatt70

Big difference between one or two classes being a cannon and the other classes becoming unecessary. We are heading in the unecessary direction. It is alot less fun when my choices for joining a group or forming a group become wiz, sorc, cleric and bard maybe for kicks...

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I must be missing something in this whole caster - melee debacle. Me? I like having diverse groups. There is only one quest I have gone on where the group only wanted casters. That was Perdition on Elite.

I've seen lots of groups who have zero casters look for one. I've even seen groups want two casters. Aside from that one quest, I don't see a lot of the "you can't join" mentality. (Unless I'm on my ranger, but that's a different thread.)

When things go perfect, sure a group of all casters and waltz through a dungeon without breaking a sweat... but occasionally the dice say waltzing is not allowed today. And when they do and things get sideways a group of casters can die really quick. That's why I like to have diverse groups. If things go perfect, we still waltz through the dungeon. If things go sideways, my opinion says that a diverse group has a better chance of recovering.

Maybe comparing to mid level quest is not relevant, I dunno, but I ran Delera's on hard last night without a wiz or sorc. It was lots of fun. The group was mostly 4 level 5s, a 6 and an 8.

Even on my capped characters, 90% of the time I take the first 5 people who ask to join. /shrug.

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Originally Posted by maddmatt70

I would also say certainly that melee are very marginalized in the inferno where the goal is to not to kill but to cc what kind of cc abilities does a melee have in comparison to casters, bards, clerics, etc so what is a melee character supposed to do in that quest - stare at the mobs funny.. The rulers of the fleshmakers labratory are clerics. Their blade barriors cut through the mobs like ribbons, but of course there is the unmeelable air elementals and red name air elemental especiall reserved for the casters firewall or I guess can be ranged if you want to wait 5 times as long... The pre-raid has some meleish components to it, but I have run in all caster/cleric groups before in there especially if it is an elite run not for completion just for the two chests in one of sections (by the way casters can just recall out there for their unlimited amount of mana)... Running around in the orchard soloing well I have done a fair amount with my battle bard, but really casters rule that roost. The way to loot some chests and pick up the tapastries if your bored well log on your caster and solo the orchard. The entire mod 5 is about casters and clerics and if mod6 is the same you will probably lose some customers Turbine which I think even the casters and clerics would be concerned about..

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Just because you have seen competent casters and clerics rule a dungeon doesn't mean they are overpowered. It just means they were a good player.

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Originally Posted by Missing Minds

My opinion is that the point of quests is to provide entertainment. This aspect has been so far forgotten.

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This is the exact point i'm trying to make both sides of this debate see. If someone wants to be elitist and only take the "uber flavor of the month" builds then thats there way of having fun, let them and move on to YOUR way of fun.

I myself like balanced party mixes, probably because its the way a old school D&D party was, a theif, a caster, a cleric and a few fighters. And i like to go slow and enjoy the quest, zerging isnt really my thing, but hey it is to others.

lets just get back to having fun in quests.

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Originally Posted by BlueLightBandit

I think he meant "boxing in" the mob... standing on four sides of it, preventing it from moving out of melee range... which I very rarely remember happening in a pen and paper game.

Then again... this is DDO, not D&D. Any discussion regarding DDO should remain D&D free if it is to be relevant.

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Well in the 3.0 and 3.5 rules using the battle mat you can box in a PC or NPC if you have people occupying the squares (hexes) around the victim. Actully a pretty good tactic. Not I think since DDO is suppose to be Dungeon and Dragons Online, then discussions reguarding DDO should NOT be D&D free no matter how much Turbine has screwed up this game.

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Originally Posted by Raithe

Yes, a few hardcore rules lawyers probably left the game shortly after launch. Most D&D fans, I'm sure, left because of the lack of D&D feel. No roleplaying. Repeating quests. No player generated stories. A focus on getting "loot."

Most of us D&D fans kind of go with the flow when it comes to rules. DDO is actually doing ok in that regard, it's just everything else that's out of whack.

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Sorry but rules are every bit has important as Role-playing and story generation. Most of the groups I have played with over the years have agreed with this. The rules are the physics of the game world that you play in and since this is a GAME then in order to make it challenging you have to have the threat of defeat (or death.) They rules if used will provide this. I have played with DM's that baby their players. Only allowing characters to die if the players do something stupid, this to be is not challenging and I would quit playing with a DM that did this (my group has actually 'fired' 2 DMs for this play style. We warned them many times but they could not get it through their heads that the challenge was the most important part of the game for us. But these DM's only saw the story as being important and to hell with the rest. Any way back to the topic.
I know that a lot of my friends including me left this games because of a combination of rules, lack of D&D feel, RP (but not so much because after all this is an MMO and as we all know not much RP can be found in MMO's,) as well as lack of a game world to explore and the poorly executed representation of Eberron. I have not played in the Eberron world (I'm a Greyhawk/Krynn fan my self.)

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Originally Posted by bellack

Sorry but rules are every bit has important as Role-playing and story generation. Most of the groups I have played with over the years have agreed with this. The rules are the physics of the game world that you play in and since this is a GAME then in order to make it challenging you have to have the threat of defeat (or death.) They rules if used will provide this. I have played with DM's that baby their players. Only allowing characters to die if the players do something stupid, this to be is not challenging and I would quit playing with a DM that did this (my group has actually 'fired' 2 DMs for this play style. We warned them many times but they could not get it through their heads that the challenge was the most important part of the game for us. But these DM's only saw the story as being important and to hell with the rest. Any way back to the topic.
I know that a lot of my friends including me left this games because of a combination of rules, lack of D&D feel, RP (but not so much because after all this is an MMO and as we all know not much RP can be found in MMO's,) as well as lack of a game world to explore and the poorly executed representation of Eberron. I have not played in the Eberron world (I'm a Greyhawk/Krynn fan my self.)

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Well first off you obviously didn't leave or you wouldn't be posting here.

Second, how can you tell if the representation of Eberron (???) is poorly executed if you haven't played in the Eberron world?

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Originally Posted by Aranticus

i remember this....

DM: roll to attack
Me: *rolls 1*
DM: roll another d20
Me: *rolls 20*
DM: grats! you missed critically on an attack with your vorpal. Dominic is decapitated by you.
Me: omgz! *gasps*

(Dominic was the party's cleric)

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I love these critical hits and misses. Our group uses some pretty nasty crit charts. I killed myself once with a critical miss.
My 10th level Paladin attacked this 4th level goblin; you would think piece of cake right. Oh no I rolled a 1 (possible crit miss.) I roll again to see if it is a crit miss and rolled a 1 again (chart crit hit) So I roll on the critical miss chart and got 100 (Decapitation/massive head injury - Roll fortitude save vs. DC = damage dealt or die. If saved then take damage dealt times your crit modifier for the weapon.) So I roll damage with my sword and maxed out the damage. I then rolled a fort save and failed. So my Pally died. Now what happened as far as the DM explained to us was that I went to hit the goblin and tripped falling to the ground? I put out my sword hand to break my fall but my heard hit the ground on top of the hand guard. Well the cross piece on the hand guard happened to be sticking up as I fell on it and it went through the eye slot in my visor and stabbed me through the eye. The other players laughed at that (I had to suppress a chuckle) but it was great. It was a fun battle and full of surprises the way my groups likes it. And I have to admit that my group loves it when someone (to include the monsters/NPC's) crits (hit and miss.) For us it enhances combat and makes it more challenging. Even a 1st level guy has a possibility to kill or defeat a 20th level. Something I wish they would use in DDO.

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Originally Posted by MysticTheurge

Or, you know, like everything else WotC's done with D&D in the last, what did they say, 2 years, it was a testing ground for the concepts they're cooking up for 4th edition.

Honestly, there are definitely things I read about 4E, where I go "Oh, hey, that's kind of like DDO."

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Well I think I will stick to the best version of the D&D rules 3.5. Since my group has had house rules to match the 3.5 since the '80s with 1st ed rules just to make it playable to us. 4e rules so far seem to be dumbing down the game to it's 1st edtion roots (not a direction I want the game to go back to.

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Originally Posted by Yaga Nub

Well first off you obviously didn't leave or you wouldn't be posting here.

Second, how can you tell if the representation of Eberron (???) is poorly executed if you haven't played in the Eberron world?

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Actually, he may be back because of shear boredom. I would say a good portion of the population is here for the same reason. When something else decent comes out we are going to loose alot of people. Everybody knows the big three reasons.

1. Not enough content.
2. Poor and unbalanced implementation.
3. Not enough randomization and customization.

Now I have nothing against Turbine. I think what they did with Lotro was wonderful, if they had put an active combat engine in that, instead of the WOW like combat, I would have found my home. They did not, so I am back here, but I do not play alot. Usually out of boredom of running the same quests. My casters are too easy, my melee too frustrating to run with casters cause everything gets blasted or FODed before i even get to do anything. I am not a zerger, I have always played tactically.... but my gamestyle now is shot to heck because of all the zerging casters.

Yeah, I still occasionally have fun soloing quests, or maybe with one other non-caster friend.

You know there is a reason why 4.0 is taking Save or Die spells out, and changing the way Fireball and such works. Casters were overpowered and melee underpowered at high levels....and its even more so in DDO.

My only hope is that Turbine or someone else will scoop up the 4.0 ruleset and make a DDO2 (Turbine) or Forgotten Realms Online (Bioware), or both, heck I would pay. I can just hope they make active combat like DDO has, I really hate the stale WOW type combat. Which is why I am staying away from Warhammer Online. Age of Conan does kind of have action combat, but it is more about pulling off combos, its not as twitch based as it seems...still looks fun. Chronicles of Spellborn seems very similar to the combat engine here, but with emphasis on runes and not equipment.

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Originally Posted by Taojeff

Actually, he may be back because of shear boredom. I would say a good portion of the population is here for the same reason. When something else decent comes out we are going to loose alot of people. Everybody knows the big three reasons.

1. Not enough content.
2. Poor and unbalanced implementation.
3. Not enough randomization and customization.

Now I have nothing against Turbine. I think what they did with Lotro was wonderful, if they had put an active combat engine in that, instead of the WOW like combat, I would have found my home. They did not, so I am back here, but I do not play alot. Usually out of boredom of running the same quests. My casters are too easy, my melee too frustrating to run with casters cause everything gets blasted or FODed before i even get to do anything. I am not a zerger, I have always played tactically.... but my gamestyle now is shot to heck because of all the zerging casters.

Yeah, I still occasionally have fun soloing quests, or maybe with one other non-caster friend.

You know there is a reason why 4.0 is taking Save or Die spells out, and changing the way Fireball and such works. Casters were overpowered and melee underpowered at high levels....and its even more so in DDO.

My only hope is that Turbine or someone else will scoop up the 4.0 ruleset and make a DDO2 (Turbine) or Forgotten Realms Online (Bioware), or both, heck I would pay. I can just hope they make active combat like DDO has, I really hate the stale WOW type combat. Which is why I am staying away from Warhammer Online. Age of Conan does kind of have action combat, but it is more about pulling off combos, its not as twitch based as it seems...still looks fun. Chronicles of Spellborn seems very similar to the combat engine here, but with emphasis on runes and not equipment.

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So when you are bored you come play a game that makes you ....... even more bored?

Don't talk about 4.0. That edition is going to be the ruination of D&D. Any who likes what is going on with 4.0 doesn't understand D&D and probably thinks that every people in the world should be paid the same salary, live in th exact same style of house, drive the exact same type of vehicle, and scores shouldn't be keep in games so that there is no loser just to keep them from feeling bad.

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Originally Posted by Yaga Nub

So when you are bored you come play a game that makes you ....... even more bored?

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Actually, I do not really play much, read post....

I post on the forums when I am bored at work or what not. Or bored creating my NWN2 campaign

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Originally Posted by Taojeff

Actually, I do not really play much, read post....

I post on the forums when I am bored at work or what not. Or bored creating my NWN2 campaign

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My mistake.

So when you get bored IRL you come to the forums of the game that makes you bored to read and talk about the game that makes you bored?

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Originally Posted by maddmatt70

Their blade barriors cut through the mobs like ribbons, but of course there is the unmeelable air elementals and red name air elemental especiall reserved for the casters firewall or I guess can be ranged if you want to wait 5 times as long...

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Now there is a monster that Turbine messed up on. There is no frigg'n way it should be able to toss anyone like it does. Not even an anorexic halfling. They really need to act more like the djinn in PoP than constant tornados that toss you when you get within 5 feet.

yes, 5 feet of them. Thanks to constant reaver runs I have discovered if you get just at their limit which is about 6-8 feet with a long weapon. (long being a non off hand weapon) you can hit them consistently without being thrown. Problem of course is that they don't stand still for melees.

This is a monster that needs some serious re work. Personally I really don't consider this a fair one to compare melee vs caster because it is coded so wrong.

For that matter the trip/thrown/knockdown saves need to be rework. If I'm on the ground, I'm on the ground already. I can't be tripped down again. You can't trip an NPC that is on the ground so why can we be constantly re tripped and re knocked down. Once I make a save, any of them, I should get up right away. That is my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Missing Minds

Now there is a monster that Turbine messed up on. There is no frigg'n way it should be able to toss anyone like it does. Not even an anorexic halfling. They really need to act more like the djinn in PoP than constant tornados that toss you when you get within 5 feet.

yes, 5 feet of them. Thanks to constant reaver runs I have discovered if you get just at their limit which is about 6-8 feet with a long weapon. (long being a non off hand weapon) you can hit them consistently without being thrown. Problem of course is that they don't stand still for melees.

This is a monster that needs some serious re work. Personally I really don't consider this a fair one to compare melee vs caster because it is coded so wrong.

For that matter the trip/thrown/knockdown saves need to be rework. If I'm on the ground, I'm on the ground already. I can't be tripped down again. You can't trip an NPC that is on the ground so why can we be constantly re tripped and re knocked down. Once I make a save, any of them, I should get up right away. That is my opinion.

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Yeah, I hate elementals. I get around them two ways with my melee...first my twirly build (cleave, great cleave, and whirlwind) runs by them and will cleave or greatcleave etc, those attacks have a greater attack range it seems, and I do not get thrown. Also, I sometimes tumble up to them and cleave. Shield blocking seems to help. All else fails run right by and hit em with a greataxe. The battles can be quite thrilling, at least till some caster hits the easy button with FOD, and they are dead.

I think the whole idea of making spells affect the party is silly. Making great-swords hack up the party is just as silly.

The point of playing video games is to have a fast paced action and PnP D&D is not about that at all. PnP D&D is about an interactive story and taking the story where you want to go. The "rules" have always been guidelines. It's an option to add extreme levels of realism and the group decides how the game is played. If you want fast action on your PnP game then you sacrifice some realism to keep the game rolling. You can play PnP like a hack and slash or like a story where combat is rare. We don't have those options in a video game. Stuff is trying to kill you and you better act fast and not be concerned with realism.

DDO is a video game period. It's about fast paced fun. It's real time combat and you don't get to move your little guy or girl into just the right spot for the sneak attack. In this game you get in there and do something NOW or you don't get to hack on something or blow something up. DDO is fast not slow like PnP. We're not taking turns and it's a free for all who gets to hack up stuff.

If a party wants to take turns getting kills then they can let each person go in first and get their kill and then next guy gets the next room. Use some imagination if you want some flavor in the game. Cripes, this is a game for crying out loud not a substitute for PnP.

If you want PnP go play PnP. If you want a video game with some action and treasure play DDO. DON'T GET THIS STUFF CONFUSED!!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Taojeff

.... The battles can be quite thrilling, at least till some caster hits the easy button with FOD, and they are dead.

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So it stops being thrilling just because you don't get the kill?

What if the caster used banishment instead of FoD? Would that make it thrilling still? Or what if a ranger with a banishing bow banished the elemental? Is that the easy button and does it make it less thrilling for you?