Eladrin - a request for an AC experiment on Lamannia

[quote=grodon9999;4038554]it really won't make the game more trivial, in content where we already crush stuff it won't matter one way or another. [quote] Who crushes? Oh wait a small part of the gaming population does. That's where it gets difficult to balance.....

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What it does do is remove another blanket immunity, and blanket immunities as just stupid.

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Oh blanket immunites??? Like FoM, DW, casters with cold shield, mass pro, Shroud aborbtion items, high scale energy resists all stacked up, that more or less make them close to immune to elemental damage..... Those types? :D But yes, I can agree that blanket immunites are annoying, but I don't think they're anything more than that and not out of the realm of D&D and therefore not out of the realm of DDO.

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Originally Posted by sephiroth1084

I'm just saying that making AC useful in epics isn't going to break anything, at least nowhere near as much as casters do.

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And it won't help S&B at all, but it would make epics even easier than they are now without further adjustments

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My point is that improving monster AC is targeting different stats than increasing player AC. The two are completely unrelated. Increasing monster AC targets players' attack bonuses, which needs doing, but has no bearing whatsoever on player AC.

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I see it as a bigger picture though....

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How can the endgame be trivialized by characters being difficult to hit? It's not like people are calling for 50 AC to be useful damage mitigating at endgame. I'm sorry, but I cannot see how characters who can actually manage to not get hit will break the endgame.

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Looking at some of the proposals from players, what I see is that what will truly benefit are the TWF dress wearers, sicne the AC benchmarks I see can be achieved by them as easily as a LOWER DPS S&B, as well as low BAB splash builds. It's a little band aid, it's not a solution at all. What it will do is decrease party damage, so it will in fact make the content easier, less resource intensive. Caster of all types will still be kings of course but melees won't get beat to snot, I agree that something needs to be done though. But simply Saying AC should matter and makign it matter will create another set of problems.

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They don't need to be much more desirable, they need to be viable. Even in content where AC rules (ie lvl 1-10), no one sits around waiting for an AC tank. I don't expect this to change. What needs changing is the accommodation that characters who are focused on AC have at end game. There is a huge difference between parties not looking for AC tanks and AC tanks who feel like all of their effort has been a waste because it's meaningless at endgame. I'm calling for a fix to the latter, not necessarily the former.

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Sure, sure.. I agree again... And making AC builds useful and fun to play , will onyl increase cster power further. How you may ask? Melees take far less damage, caster have even more resources to burn. It may seem a trivial issue, but it's those issues that seem trivial, that can end up being BIG issues that cause even more problems.

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There will be pluses and minuses for both heavily armored and unarmored AC styles. I'm not calling for fixes to that disparity, I'm calling for a fix to the AC/monster to-hit system at endgame. S&B tanks have gotten some love and now offer some rather unique benefits when compared to pajama AC builds, but neither the S&B nor the PJs wearer are of any value if monsters are routinely hitting AC 100.

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Again, I agree that the slaughter of 100AC or even 90AC toons is dumb even if they are wearing a dress. But what I'm seeign proposed wont' help S&B at all, it will be a HUGE step for the Dress wearers and the extreme splashes. The latest help for S&B was a start, but you see they still fall far behind in the pure DPS area, sure they can generate hate and all, but will still only be useful in a couple quests gamewide, and oterhwise will mroe or less be worthless the rest of the time. OK, so you have a dress wearing toon that does 40% more damage and can hit the same AC benchmark. Even IF a S&B can generate the extra hate to hold agro over that, where's this new found advantage they have ove rthe dress earer? That little spit of DR? Does that REALLY make a huge difference, sure in a few groups it might, in most groups not at all.

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Which is my point: improving AC toons at endgame isn't going to break anything. All I'm asking for is the ability to take my character built for AC into epic quests and raids and actually see enough instances of "MISS" to justify holding that shield, keeping on the Chaosgardes, etc...rather than swapping to DPS mode every time I step into such content.

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But it will help the dress earers FAR more, they swing more.... If they get hit less there will be a larger disparity between them and the S&B. That's what I'm saying... S&B will still not be fun... Nor will it be desirable in anything but a couple of the raids, not anymore desirable than it is currently.

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Sure, there will be a few quests where having a solid AC tank will make things run a little more smoothly when in a mediocre group, or in a decent group with a poor caster. We need a little variety in the way quests are approached.

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Yes yes I want more usefulness as well.... I agree completely with this.... BUT my point here and all along has been that it's simply not as easy as SOME people think it is, and requires far more than this little fix or that little fix. Point.... They gave out DoT spells because so many casters complained about being useless in some of the raids and quests. They felt like buff bots. Standing around waiting, which for me is part fo the game at times, every class can't be kil lamchines 100% of the time. Look what DoTs have done.... Yes, I love them and use them ALL THE TIME, but they have yet again trivialized most of the content in the game. Would you have said that ws going to happen prior to them coming out?

I'm not bashing the discussion at all.... I'm just saying it's not THAT easy of a problem to correct and short sighted self agrandizing, self benefitting solutions will likely lead to OTHER problems.

As suggested before, if shields = less dps, then shields should add a significant amount - up to 50%, of damage mitigation to compensate.

A few points of AC mattered in pnp, but doesnt matter much in DDO.

Add the benefits of shield blocking for shield mastery and defender builds.

Increase the DR from using shields - ANYONE using a shield gets dr, defender lines get more - up to full blocking dr at max. Or even a % reduction, which should include AOE and spell damage.

Sa 2/4/6 for small/medium/tower shield - mastery feats add 3 dr each (so 12 dr with both feats and a tower shield), and the 3 defender lines add at least 3 per tier on top - or maybe 5 per tier.

A shield should add something useful in DDO - and currently it makes a character weaker not stronger or at least not balanced with two weapons.

Think Greek shield phalanx and 300, +4 ac doesnt cover it in the slightest.

Given people's concern about TWF dress wearer ACs, I think the solution to that is higher AC on shields.

Degenerate ACs will still be possible (Dex/Wis based toons), but are pretty terrible overall as they just can't hold aggro in most situations.

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Originally Posted by sirgog

Given people's concern about TWF dress wearer ACs, I think the solution to that is higher AC on shields.

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Have Combat Expertise give a +10 if a shield is equipped. Issue solved.

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Originally Posted by sirgog

Degenerate ACs will still be possible (Dex/Wis based toons), but are pretty terrible overall as they just can't hold aggro in most situations.

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Exactly, you need to generate threat.

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Originally Posted by smatt

And it won't help S&B at all, but it would make epics even easier than they are now without further adjustments

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Really? I would luv to hear how this is the case?

It would change nothing regarding difficulty except letting those AC builds in the run contribute more effectively.

Shield users are already LESS affected in Epics now and in other areas because they can simply put the shield away and pull out a 2 hander doing sigificantly more damage than the splashes who go full attack mode.

When they pull out the shield they get a % dr on attacks, this is certainly not trivial and generate a heap of agro now based on the new update.

AC based toons are not going to trivialise anything, if you think they are going to go in there and solo an epic like a caster well maybe they could if ac were relevant but who cares? How long would you be prepared to take for that achievement? Does wasting 3 hours doing something a party could do in 20 min give you better rewards? (appart from the obvious feeling of achievement)

While I will agree with others giving shield users +10 bonus for CE is quite reasonable and inline with PA and 2 Handed weapons, this is where I draw the line. Any further bonuses to S/B to so call ballance splashes can happen when you are able to toggle half the wisdom/dex expended in those splashes into Attack/Tohit and damage instead of AC.

While the devs have not done anything useful as far as AC goes since they completely screwed it with grazing hits they have managed to almost ballance it between the splashes and the shield users. Now if only they could ballance it in PVE.

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Originally Posted by Riggs

As suggested before, if shields = less dps, then shields should add a significant amount - up to 50%, of damage mitigation to compensate.

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And regarding shields as DR - grazing hits at least would see a change even if left as is - a twf with a high ac will still get grazed, while a 20 dr shield user will at least significantly reduce some of the extra damage.

A full defender 3 with shield mastery feats however should get the 30-40 dr of blocking along with not getting hit by special attacks (while not moving) - as endgame damage makes a 6 dr, or 10 dr stoneskin trivial (and monk/fvs 10 dr too is trivial compared to how useful it would have been in pnp).

But grazing hits still needs to be reduced to an 18 or better at most. 13 is just stupid.

Defender tier 1 - 25% chance to have incoming physical attack treated as if you were shield blocking.
Defender tier 2 - Block proc increased to 35%
Defender tier 3 - Block proc increased to 50%

Discuss.

They could make shield bash more usable. For example something like

Shield bash
In ur attack cycle you have a x% chance to add bashing attacks with your shield.

Imp shield bash
In ur attack cycle you have a 2x% chance to add bashing attacks with your shield. While carrying out a bashing attack you are considered to be blocking.

This would make it have slightly better dps (depending on chances) and basically you'd be blocking some of the time you are attacking. Of course x can't be something large. Imo max 15%. These feats would naturally require shield mastery and e.g. heavy armor proficiency. Something to prevent easy exploitation (unlikely tho as shield dps is nothing to mention really and the benefit requires you to be attacking).

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Originally Posted by MaxwellEdison

Defender tier 1 - 25% chance to have incoming physical attack treated as if you were shield blocking.
Defender tier 2 - Block proc increased to 35%
Defender tier 3 - Block proc increased to 50%

Discuss.

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This would work but they shouldn't be tied to a PrE.

Change the shield mastery feats to use tech like this.

As to the most recent back and forth in this thread.... it seems to me there are 2 very seperate issuses here that are apples and oranges.

Apples: AC sucks endgame.

Change all CR 20+ mobs to a d20+d40 to hit roll
Change all CR 15-19 mobs to a d20+d20 to hit roll

This would help all AC users, S+B and PJ splashs.

Oranges: shield users gain (almost) only AC from using shields, while losing out on much DPS.

Revamp/add shield feats

Shield prof, 10% proc chance to shield bash, 10% chance to have hit count as active block.

Sheild bash, +20% proc to bash for total of 30%
Imp S bash, +20% proc to bash for total of 50%

Shield mastery, +20% active block chance
Imp S mastery, +20% active block chance for a total of 50%

With all 4 feat, 1 more than spent on either THF or TWF chain, S+B gains:

50% shield bash proc chance and 50% shield block chance.

These 2 changes would go a long way to help(solve?) both of these very differnt problems.

Eladrin where are you?

Oh thats right hoping this thread will just slip away so you dont have to worry about it, wait a sec your already not worrying or bothering about it and the good ideas in this thread, heck the shield one has already died a death... a few more days and your mission of ignoring the issue until it goes away again will be complete...

The revised Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Bash feats do a lot to improve the stock of shields, but there could stand to be a little more given along those same lines, if only to reflect the fact that equipping a shield is necessarily accepting a loss of DPS, and that those feats don't really replace stuff like TWF and THF, which puts a tremendous burden on characters who were already under strain. That said, I don't think they need the sorts of revisions or rewrites a lot of people are suggesting here.

Shields should come with an inherent 5/10/15% damage mitigation that gets improved by 10/15/20% with Shield Mastery and 5% with Improved Shield Master (which should add something else as well), and should have an inherent 20% bash chance with the feat granting an additional 20%.

After all, you get 20% off-hand attacks before picking up a TWF feat, glancing blows with any two-handed weapon.

On the topic of pajamas AC vs. S&B, anything that improved the one indirectly improves the other. Lowering monster to-hit doesn't really benefit one much more than the other, and that difference shouldn't prevent a general approach to the AC problem.

While they are related, they necessarily have to be addressed separately. We can't fix them together, the AC system in general and the difference between the two styles, because there are too many moving parts, and the causes for the problems with each piece are separate from those of each other piece.

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Originally Posted by sephiroth1084

Shields should come with an inherent 5/10/15% damage mitigation that gets improved by 10/15/20% with Shield Mastery and 5% with Improved Shield Master (which should add something else as well), and should have an inherent 20% bash chance with the feat granting an additional 20%.

After all, you get 20% off-hand attacks before picking up a TWF feat, glancing blows with any two-handed weapon.

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Agreed.

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Originally Posted by sephiroth1084

The revised Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Bash feats do a lot to improve the stock of shields, but there could stand to be a little more given along those same lines, if only to reflect the fact that equipping a shield is necessarily accepting a loss of DPS, and that those feats don't really replace stuff like TWF and THF, which puts a tremendous burden on characters who were already under strain. That said, I don't think they need the sorts of revisions or rewrites a lot of people are suggesting here.

Shields should come with an inherent 5/10/15% damage mitigation that gets improved by 10/15/20% with Shield Mastery and 5% with Improved Shield Master (which should add something else as well), and should have an inherent 20% bash chance with the feat granting an additional 20%.

After all, you get 20% off-hand attacks before picking up a TWF feat, glancing blows with any two-handed weapon.

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By that math, a shield with no feats should be 20%(damage mitigation, as shield bash is not a valid or logical reason to put a shield on over a second weapon) at the start. Take the 2 feats and you are up to 60%.

Defender lines bring you up to 100% by tier 2.

Since each twf feat adds 20% to off hand attacks....

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Originally Posted by sephiroth1084

On the topic of pajamas AC vs. S&B, anything that improved the one indirectly improves the other. Lowering monster to-hit doesn't really benefit one much more than the other, and that difference shouldn't prevent a general approach to the AC problem.

While they are related, they necessarily have to be addressed separately. We can't fix them together, the AC system in general and the difference between the two styles, because there are too many moving parts, and the causes for the problems with each piece are separate from those of each other piece.

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+10 AC for CE if you have a Shield equipped makes Armor > Pajamas.

More protection (AC), additional damage mitigation (from shield mastery), and more threat.

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Originally Posted by sephiroth1084

On the topic of pajamas AC vs. S&B, anything that improved the one indirectly improves the other. Lowering monster to-hit doesn't really benefit one much more than the other, and that difference shouldn't prevent a general approach to the AC problem.

While they are related, they necessarily have to be addressed separately. We can't fix them together, the AC system in general and the difference between the two styles, because there are too many moving parts, and the causes for the problems with each piece are separate from those of each other piece.

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Fixing two problems at the same time however should not be impossible.

Considering the amount of ideas and consensus over some of the issues in just a couple days - it should not be asking for the moon to make two changes that benefit the game in a big way.

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Originally Posted by grodon9999

+10 AC for CE if you have a Shield equipped makes Armor > Pajamas.

More protection (AC), additional damage mitigation (from shield mastery), and more threat.

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Someone should not need to activate CE, requiring Int 13, a feat, and -5 to attack just to make a shield useful.

Shields should be useful with 0 feats, and the benefit going up with the mastery feats and defender lines.

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Originally Posted by Riggs

By that math, a shield with no feats should be 20%(damage mitigation, as shield bash is not a valid or logical reason to put a shield on over a second weapon) at the start. Take the 2 feats and you are up to 60%.

Defender lines bring you up to 100% by tier 2.

Since each twf feat adds 20% to off hand attacks....

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Are you talking about bashing or damage mitigation?

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Originally Posted by grodon9999

+10 AC for CE if you have a Shield equipped makes Armor > Pajamas.
More protection (AC), additional damage mitigation (from shield mastery), and more threat.

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Better...maybe. I think TWF AC might still be ahead for DPS, but if it truly did make S&B better in light of everything else (damage reduction, threat and comparable DPS) there would be a problem.

This is an example of what I was saying elsewhere: a solution of sorts to the Dex vs. S&B problem that doesn't have anything to do with the problem of AC in general.

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Originally Posted by Riggs

Fixing two problems at the same time however should not be impossible.

Considering the amount of ideas and consensus over some of the issues in just a couple days - it should not be asking for the moon to make two changes that benefit the game in a big way.

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The changes are necessarily separate, though. Look at the CE solution: it normalizes the different routes to attaining AC, but they're still both woefully handicapped, or made entirely irrelevant by insane monster attack bonuses.

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Originally Posted by Riggs

Someone should not need to activate CE, requiring Int 13, a feat, and -5 to attack just to make a shield useful.

Shields should be useful with 0 feats, and the benefit going up with the mastery feats and defender lines.

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Is TWF useful with no feats? Not really. -10 to your attacks and 20% off-hand. My proposal of the baseline damage mitigation and bashing would put using a shield ahead of that by a bit, due to the ability for a DPS character to strap on a shield when they need it, but I think it's a reasonable suggestion.

I agree that making CE the balancing point leaves something to be desired, but I think that CE + Shield Mastery + Improved Shield Bash is a reasonable approach.

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Originally Posted by sephiroth1084

On the topic of pajamas AC vs. S&B, anything that improved the one indirectly improves the other. Lowering monster to-hit doesn't really benefit one much more than the other, and that difference shouldn't prevent a general approach to the AC problem.

While they are related, they necessarily have to be addressed separately. We can't fix them together, the AC system in general and the difference between the two styles, because there are too many moving parts, and the causes for the problems with each piece are separate from those of each other piece.

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You see here is where I was coming from..... They are indeed seprate issues, but are some what related as well. Making AC useful, does not make S&B anymore useful or desirable than it is now. And I still say that an accross the board reduction of mob to hit in end game content would benefit the dress wearers more, simply by default. I'm not sayign that dress wearers should be nerfed... But I don't think they should gain anymore than than any other melee class either.

BUT, some of the ideas I'm seeing thrown out NOW seem to be good ones, not the duct tape type, that would lead to more problems. Increased damge mitigation throught he use of a shield that is tied to the feat and enhancement lines is the way to go. BUT if it further reduces DPS, then it's pointless. The only time that additional threat really palys a part is in say raid situation wher it's key for the high AC high DR character needs to hold agro. Otherwise threat is more or less useless in 99% of the game. As we all know, no matter what, DPS is the king....

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Originally Posted by sephiroth1084

Better...maybe. I think TWF AC might still be ahead for DPS, but if it truly did make S&B better in light of everything else (damage reduction, threat and comparable DPS) there would be a problem.

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but it will NOT be ahead of threat and you need fewer stats raise so you'll have more room for STR and CON. When in DPS-mode the S&Ber will be switching to a Two-hander.

Junt's pally can hit 84 AC while using an Epic Sword of Shadows, a guildy of mine posted a first-life pally build who can get 88 AC while TWFing in heavy armor.

I got a TWFing defender build, the damage is okay. it's not bad but it's nowhere near what a real DPS build will put out.

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Originally Posted by smatt

You see here is where I was coming from..... They are indeed seprate issues, but are some what related as well. Making AC useful, does not make S&B anymore useful or desirable than it is now.

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That is patently false. Part of the reason that AC isn't desirable is because it doesn't work. I have a S&B AC tank, and I rarely take him into epic quests, even though he has incredible gear, decent DPS and is very survivable. Why? Because his AC doesn't mean anything in epics. I don't give a **** if the pajamas guy next to me is also not getting hit. It's not like hasn't spend as much time farming gear as I have. We're in the same boat right now: the main focus for the both of us is entirely wasted. The pajamas guy at least can swap some gear, turn on PA and be almost identical to a DPS toon. I can't do that, even when swapping to a 2-hander.

Your problem is that you seem to think that the core issue is the disparity between the different approaches to AC, but it's not. It's the disparity between content in which AC works and that in which it doesn't. Here's a greater comparison: I'm not jealous, on my AC tank, of the wizards who are flying through quests. I don't propose a solution that balances the way monsters approach me in the same context as the way the wizard approaches the monsters.

The fixes can be implemented concurrently, but it's a mistake to think that a solution to the pajamas vs. shield problem has to come at the same time as the one to endgame to-hit scores, or that it has to happen first. Besides, it already has been getting addressed with the boosts to the shield feats. Not completely, but it's in the works.

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Originally Posted by grodon9999

but it will NOT be ahead of threat and you need fewer stats raise so you'll have more room for STR and CON. When in DPS-mode the S&Ber will be switching to a Two-hander.

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While in S&B mode there is still a major disparity between TWF and 1-handed DPS, which is what I was referring to. That lessens as you go higher on AC and more and more gear on the TWF side has to be devoted to Dex (and Wis) and then to Dex raises instead of Str at the highest end, but the transition from S&B to two-handed weapon results (usually) in less of a DPS gain than TWF AC to TWF DPS. My point was just that I don't think S&B should totally eclipse TWF (I guess stick builds fall here as well) AC in every way. I'm fine with S&B having about the same AC, more damage mitigation and threat, while the pajamas have a little more DPS.

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Junt's pally can hit 84 AC while using an Epic Sword of Shadows, a guildy of mine posted a first-life pally build who can get 88 AC while TWFing in heavy armor.

I got a TWFing defender build, the damage is okay. it's not bad but it's nowhere near what a real DPS build will put out.

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My tank has reasonable DPS when he puts the shield away, but like Junts' Jaerlech, has relatively little DPS support built in--I can swap some gear and weapons, but there are no DPS feats other than PA and IC to back that up. The switch is a lot weaker than I would like (I liked that a lot better when my tank had GTWF), but I decided that other things were more important to me than the extra DPS.

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Originally Posted by sephiroth1084

That is patently false. Part of the reason that AC isn't desirable is because it doesn't work. I have a S&B AC tank, and I rarely take him into epic quests, even though he has incredible gear, decent DPS and is very survivable. Why? Because his AC doesn't mean anything in epics. I don't give a **** if the pajamas guy next to me is also not getting hit. It's not like hasn't spend as much time farming gear as I have. We're in the same boat right now: the main focus for the both of us is entirely wasted. The pajamas guy at least can swap some gear, turn on PA and be almost identical to a DPS toon. I can't do that, even when swapping to a 2-hander.

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Um no what I said isn't false in any way.... You're telling me making a S&B NOT get hit, it will be more useful in an epic quest? Really, you mean you're taking a **** DPS S&B into an epic when a TWF with the same AC with no shield will FAR out DPS that S&B? Oh that's fun... I'm sure it will be a big hit with the masses... whoosh whoosh whoos whoosh on a mob for 30-50% longer than the TWF next to you on the same mob type. Yep that's useful...... In reality all the the to hit nerf on mobs would be would be a HUGE gain for the dress clan, and mean that S&B would be less of auseless resource drain.. At least in most cases... It would also as I said before further trivialize the Epic content since the melees would require far less resources from the caster contingent and therefore the caster contingent would have more resources to put forth into dealing with the mobs directly.

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Your problem is that you seem to think that the core issue is the disparity between the different approaches to AC, but it's not. It's the disparity between content in which AC works and that in which it doesn't. Here's a greater comparison: I'm not jealous, on my AC tank, of the wizards who are flying through quests. I don't propose a solution that balances the way monsters approach me in the same context as the way the wizard approaches the monsters.

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LOL, so I'm jealous? is that what you're implying? Not int he least.. I know exactly what the desparities are.... I'd simply like to see AC be made useful AND S&B useful..... But I also DON'T want to see dress wearers get MORE benfits, while S&B are left behind.. If neither, one, or both happens I won't really care... I will play or I won't.. But thinking I'm jealous.. Oh fer christ's sake.....

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While in S&B mode there is still a major disparity between TWF and 1-handed DPS, which is what I was referring to. That lessens as you go higher on AC and more and more gear on the TWF side has to be devoted to Dex (and Wis) and then to Dex raises instead of Str at the highest end, but the transition from S&B to two-handed weapon results (usually) in less of a DPS gain than TWF AC to TWF DPS. My point was just that I don't think S&B should totally eclipse TWF (I guess stick builds fall here as well) AC in every way. I'm fine with S&B having about the same AC, more damage mitigation and threat, while the pajamas have a little more DPS.

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Sure sure...

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Originally Posted by smatt

Um no what I said isn't false in any way.... You're telling me making a S&B NOT get hit, it will be more useful in an epic quest? Really, you mean you're taking a **** DPS S&B into an epic when a TWF with the same AC with no shield will FAR out DPS that S&B? Oh that's fun... I'm sure it will be a big hit with the masses... whoosh whoosh whoos whoosh on a mob for 30-50% longer than the TWF next to you on the same mob type. Yep that's useful...... In reality all the the to hit nerf on mobs would be would be a HUGE gain for the dress clan, and mean that S&B would be less of auseless resource drain.. At least in most cases... It would also as I said before further trivialize the Epic content since the melees would require far less resources from the caster contingent and therefore the caster contingent would have more resources to put forth into dealing with the mobs directly.

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Pajamas AC builds aren't 30-50% DPS ahead of S&B builds. Simply dropping monster to-hit isn't going to greatly increase the stock of AC builds in epic parties since people have been crushing the content (to borrow an Axer-ism) for a good long time without anyone ever seeing a MISS on anything but a 1. New strategies to make use of that resource may arise, but how often do you see even low-level LFMs looking for someone with AC? Or raids? Little enough. That's not what the change is aimed at. It's aimed at allowing the people who have dedicated themselves to making and gearing such characters to play them in the content the way they should be played! New strategies may arise to lean on the AC tanks, whatever their focus, but that won't ever be a prevailing force in endgame content--there aren't enough people who have chosen that route and there will always be players who prefer faster times to lower resource usage.

You're looking at the problem from the perspective of making AC toons more attractive to LFMs, whereas I'm looking at it from the perspective of someone who has an AC toon. Even raids that really benefit from having an AC tank rarely call for such an inclusion. I'd wager that less than 1 in 10 ToD or VoD runs features an AC tank, and far fewer looked for one.

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LOL, so I'm jealous? is that what you're implying? Not int he least.. I know exactly what the desparities are.... I'd simply like to see AC be made useful AND S&B useful..... But I also DON'T want to see dress wearers get MORE benfits, while S&B are left behind.. If neither, one, or both happens I won't really care... I will play or I won't.. But thinking I'm jealous.. Oh fer christ's sake.....

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Short of giving monsters a huge boost in physical damage to go along with their drop in to-hit, nothing is going to make AC characters useful in epic quests. Similarly, reducing the incoming damage on one or two characters isn't going result in a concordant increase in free SP for casters to spend. It's very difficult to avoid getting hit in quests where enemies tend to swarm parties from multiple directions unless they are being CC'ed, and that has almost zero relation to a single AC character in a quest. As far as healing goes, mass healing tends to rule the day, with scrolls as backup from what I can tell on the receiving end. As for arcanes, they can nuke, kill or CC everything just the same with AC tanks or heavy DPS builds, except that their CC doesn't go as far with the weaker melees. AC has no bearing on Wail of the Banshee, Circle or Finger of Death, and a negative impact on Web, Otto's and Hold.

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Originally Posted by sephiroth1084

Pajamas AC builds aren't 30-50% DPS ahead of S&B builds. Simply dropping monster to-hit isn't going to greatly increase the stock of AC builds in epic parties since people have been crushing the content (to borrow an Axer-ism) for a good long time without anyone ever seeing a MISS on anything but a 1. New strategies to make use of that resource may arise, but how often do you see even low-level LFMs looking for someone with AC? Or raids? Little enough. That's not what the change is aimed at. It's aimed at allowing the people who have dedicated themselves to making and gearing such characters to play them in the content the way they should be played! New strategies may arise to lean on the AC tanks, whatever their focus, but that won't ever be a prevailing force in endgame content--there aren't enough people who have chosen that route and there will always be players who prefer faster times to lower resource usage.

You're looking at the problem from the perspective of making AC toons more attractive to LFMs, whereas I'm looking at it from the perspective of someone who has an AC toon. Even raids that really benefit from having an AC tank rarely call for such an inclusion. I'd wager that less than 1 in 10 ToD or VoD runs features an AC tank, and far fewer looked for one.

Short of giving monsters a huge boost in physical damage to go along with their drop in to-hit, nothing is going to make AC characters useful in epic quests. Similarly, reducing the incoming damage on one or two characters isn't going result in a concordant increase in free SP for casters to spend. It's very difficult to avoid getting hit in quests where enemies tend to swarm parties from multiple directions unless they are being CC'ed, and that has almost zero relation to a single AC character in a quest. As far as healing goes, mass healing tends to rule the day, with scrolls as backup from what I can tell on the receiving end. As for arcanes, they can nuke, kill or CC everything just the same with AC tanks or heavy DPS builds, except that their CC doesn't go as far with the weaker melees. AC has no bearing on Wail of the Banshee, Circle or Finger of Death, and a negative impact on Web, Otto's and Hold.

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yet, my ac tank/dps tank/ self sufficent build can save against them all even though i take 200 damage i probably would cast deathward just incase i donnt get hit , the only thing you cant save from is otto or dispell but not many caster use it as much as my caster does. eventually i will have to test on how many times i get hit with 101 ac so far i've tried 85 and still was being hit yet not quite often as i am in dps mode. but of course my ac caster will stand out from the rest so its a win win situation.

S&B DPS is widely underestimated.

Glancing blows on Bastard Swords are a significant source of DPS, and with the high fortification seen on Lamannia, Bastard Swords can give the Khopesh a real run for its money.

Of course, all of this is moot at the moment as on Live, S&B builds are hit by every epic purple-named on a 2, leaving them with nothing to show for their DPS sacrifice other than DR 20-25%/-.

You two are right in some sense, because there isn't only one problem with AC in epics.

1) Yes, the first thing is to make it usefull. By this I mean: AC should give a significant defense from epic mobs. An average value from my point of vue could be around +55-60 to hit for trash mobs, +65-70 for epic quests' bosses and something like +75-80 for bosses.
2) This is only a part of the problem, because as it goes now, there isn't a single problem with ressources during epic runs. When you hit mass heal or mass csw, who cares if you only took 100 damage and the other characters 300 when you're healed for 400? Tanks would only be usefull if ppl were fearing taking hits, i.e. if epic mobs hit harder.

The solution imo would be to transfer some to-hit to damage. Epic mobs could gain a major power attack, reducing their to-hit by 10 and increasing their damage by 20. But imo, the proposal I gave a bit earlier in this thread would be more efficient: introducing a margin of success to attack that would increase the damage proportionaly to the value the total to-hit (w/ die roll) has hit the character.

This way, ppl would like having someone geting the attention of mobs to take their hits, while the healer(s) wouldn't have too much trouble keeping him alive (since of no AC tank would take a trunk load of damage). S&B, while not having as much dps as pyjamas (which seems fine to me), would bring some more damage mitigation.

*Edit: an old proposition I made to make CE give +10 AC instead of +5 when wielding a shield (in a similar way THF applies twice PA), and that grodon bumped recently, would also help to make S&B a bit more sexy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sirgog

S&B DPS is widely underestimated.

Glancing blows on Bastard Swords are a significant source of DPS, and with the high fortification seen on Lamannia, Bastard Swords can give the Khopesh a real run for its money.

Of course, all of this is moot at the moment as on Live, S&B builds are hit by every epic purple-named on a 2, leaving them with nothing to show for their DPS sacrifice other than DR 20-25%/-.

---

This is true. The dps values are actually narrowing quite a bit. Glancings and even shield bashes with the imp shield bash feat while not making up completely for an offhand weapon the gap is considerably less than it was 4 months ago.

You are also right with epics. There is no benefit to being ac geared and shield toting in epic content. Even the extra hp from the future changes just means defender builds are barbs but with significantly less dps.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by scottmike0

yet, my ac tank/dps tank/ self sufficent build can save against them all even though i take 200 damage i probably would cast deathward just incase i donnt get hit , the only thing you cant save from is otto or dispell but not many caster use it as much as my caster does. eventually i will have to test on how many times i get hit with 101 ac so far i've tried 85 and still was being hit yet not quite often as i am in dps mode. but of course my ac caster will stand out from the rest so its a win win situation.

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Think you failed your roll on reading comprehension. The spells I listed were what player casters are doing to monsters.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feithlin

You two are right in some sense, because there isn't only one problem with AC in epics.

1) Yes, the first thing is to make it usefull. By this I mean: AC should give a significant defense from epic mobs. An average value from my point of vue could be around +55-60 to hit for trash mobs, +65-70 for epic quests' bosses and something like +75-80 for bosses.
2) This is only a part of the problem, because as it goes now, there isn't a single problem with ressources during epic runs. When you hit mass heal or mass csw, who cares if you only took 100 damage and the other characters 300 when you're healed for 400? Tanks would only be usefull if ppl were fearing taking hits, i.e. if epic mobs hit harder.

The solution imo would be to transfer some to-hit to damage. Epic mobs could gain a major power attack, reducing their to-hit by 10 and increasing their damage by 20. But imo, the proposal I gave a bit earlier in this thread would be more efficient: introducing a margin of success to attack that would increase the damage proportionaly to the value the total to-hit (w/ die roll) has hit the character.

This way, ppl would like having someone geting the attention of mobs to take their hits, while the healer(s) wouldn't have too much trouble keeping him alive (since of no AC tank would take a trunk load of damage). S&B, while not having as much dps as pyjamas (which seems fine to me), would bring some more damage mitigation.

*Edit: an old proposition I made to make CE give +10 AC instead of +5 when wielding a shield (in a similar way THF applies twice PA), and that grodon bumped recently, would also help to make S&B a bit more sexy.

---

I'd be in favor of (and have said for a while) reducing to-hit values (and maybe HP) and bumping up damage quite a bit, putting a greater emphasis on solid CC, quick kills and AC characters who can manage aggro, as well as putting a greater strain on resources.

55-60 seems a bit low for epics, but 60-65 for trash seems reasonable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sephiroth1084

Think you failed your roll on reading comprehension. The spells I listed were what player casters are doing to monsters.

I'd be in favor of (and have said for a while) reducing to-hit values (and maybe HP) and bumping up damage quite a bit, putting a greater emphasis on solid CC, quick kills and AC characters who can manage aggro, as well as putting a greater strain on resources.

55-60 seems a bit low for epics, but 60-65 for trash seems reasonable.

---

I think the key is having very varied trash to-hits.

One mob in an encounter with a low To-Hit (say 35+2d20) that hits like a truck, and two others at 50+2d20 that hit for more modest amounts.

The main reason, however, that we don't really use tanking on trash is that player healing is so hyper-efficient, and our HP pools are so small, that we can be healed from 10% to 100% with a 0.35 second cast time Heal spell.

If Turbine really want to make tanking relevant, they should significantly increase player HP pools and also mob damage, and at the same time tone down healing amplification. Combined, that really amounts to a nerf to player healing. That would make damage mitigation very relevant, but would be quite a shakeup of play mechanics.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sirgog

I think the key is having very varied trash to-hits.

One mob in an encounter with a low To-Hit (say 35+2d20) that hits like a truck, and two others at 50+2d20 that hit for more modest amounts.

The main reason, however, that we don't really use tanking on trash is that player healing is so hyper-efficient, and our HP pools are so small, that we can be healed from 10% to 100% with a 0.35 second cast time Heal spell.

If Turbine really want to make tanking relevant, they should significantly increase player HP pools and also mob damage, and at the same time tone down healing amplification. Combined, that really amounts to a nerf to player healing. That would make damage mitigation very relevant, but would be quite a shakeup of play mechanics.

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Sadly power creep is too far gone - to add hp it would throw the game even more out of whack, and totally unbalance lower levels from 1-19 (if players had 2x or 3x the hp).

Players and monsters should never have started hitting for 60-100 damage in the first place, with spells hitting stupid high amounts on both sides of the pve.

Blame the khopesh getting x3 crits and the Sos starting the unbalance - and Turbine just hunkered down and went full speed ahead with the constant upgrades instead of nurfing those two stupidly powerful weapons way back when it wouldnt have hurt too bad. They really started all the silliness.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feithlin

You two are right in some sense, because there isn't only one problem with AC in epics.

1) Yes, the first thing is to make it usefull. By this I mean: AC should give a significant defense from epic mobs. An average value from my point of vue could be around +55-60 to hit for trash mobs, +65-70 for epic quests' bosses and something like +75-80 for bosses.
2) This is only a part of the problem, because as it goes now, there isn't a single problem with ressources during epic runs. When you hit mass heal or mass csw, who cares if you only took 100 damage and the other characters 300 when you're healed for 400? Tanks would only be usefull if ppl were fearing taking hits, i.e. if epic mobs hit harder.

The solution imo would be to transfer some to-hit to damage. Epic mobs could gain a major power attack, reducing their to-hit by 10 and increasing their damage by 20. But imo, the proposal I gave a bit earlier in this thread would be more efficient: introducing a margin of success to attack that would increase the damage proportionaly to the value the total to-hit (w/ die roll) has hit the character.

This way, ppl would like having someone geting the attention of mobs to take their hits, while the healer(s) wouldn't have too much trouble keeping him alive (since of no AC tank would take a trunk load of damage). S&B, while not having as much dps as pyjamas (which seems fine to me), would bring some more damage mitigation.

*Edit: an old proposition I made to make CE give +10 AC instead of +5 when wielding a shield (in a similar way THF applies twice PA), and that grodon bumped recently, would also help to make S&B a bit more sexy.

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No to more mob damage number, yes to stacking fortification debuffs instead.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by noinfo

No to more mob damage number, yes to stacking fortification debuffs instead.

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That's another interesting option.

Bump for Dev attention

/signed

great idea sirgog.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Riggs

Sadly power creep is too far gone - to add hp it would throw the game even more out of whack, and totally unbalance lower levels from 1-19 (if players had 2x or 3x the hp).

Players and monsters should never have started hitting for 60-100 damage in the first place, with spells hitting stupid high amounts on both sides of the pve.

Blame the khopesh getting x3 crits and the Sos starting the unbalance - and Turbine just hunkered down and went full speed ahead with the constant upgrades instead of nurfing those two stupidly powerful weapons way back when it wouldnt have hurt too bad. They really started all the silliness.

---

what would the game be like with no khopesh and no esos?

would it totally kill 2handed fighting? would it mean all the melee would be using rapiers and scimitars? cept for monks of course.

Spell damage with dots now seems to do a lot of damage, im no number cruncher but is it higher than top end melee now?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by noinfo

No to more mob damage number, yes to stacking fortification debuffs instead.

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/signed.
It would be usefull and would benefit all those stacking fortification items if mobs were to make 100% fort to be around 60% at best (possibly stacking 2 or 3 times for -10% or -15%). Crits would be feared.
Now everyone has 100% fort and wont worry 1 bit about crits.

It would also make that extra fort for WF and new Epic Chimera's Fang useful.
This way tanks with chimera would be more useful and needed and arcanes other than WFs would fear being hit be mobs for a lot of dmg.

I totally would like stacking fort debufs for mobs and maybe players too (other than rogue).
Well not all mobe but some of waves of mobs that would prep party for 2nd wave that will do more dmg.

I would like adding bard song that would add fort (like 20%) and decrease double strike attack. It would be an opposition what is now, since with alchemical weapons a lot of ppl will have that 6% double attack chance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Riggs

Sadly power creep is too far gone - to add hp it would throw the game even more out of whack, and totally unbalance lower levels from 1-19 (if players had 2x or 3x the hp).

Players and monsters should never have started hitting for 60-100 damage in the first place, with spells hitting stupid high amounts on both sides of the pve.

Blame the khopesh getting x3 crits and the Sos starting the unbalance - and Turbine just hunkered down and went full speed ahead with the constant upgrades instead of nurfing those two stupidly powerful weapons way back when it wouldnt have hurt too bad. They really started all the silliness.

---

What started the escalation was Wall of Fire. The Devs realised that it made <1500hp mobs too fragile in its incarnation back then (multiple walls in one spot stacked and all dealt damage), and started to use higher HP trash mobs to compensate. Like the ~3500hp orthons in Normal Shroud, which have ~8-10k on Elite IIRC.

Still, power creep is here to stay, and the worst offender in power creep, IMO, is instant-cast Heal, which has been in the game longer than me. That spell heals for too much compared to player HP bars for anything to be challenging that isn't extremely fast incoming damage.

Back on AC, however - giving bosses the ability to use AC debuffs such as Sunder on tanks also helps keep AC builds in check a little. IMO a boss with modest to-hit (say 45+3d20 at current player gear levels) with an on-vorpal proc that drops the target's AC by 3 for 30 seconds and that stacks with itself without limit could really make for some interesting fights.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xandariant

/signed.
It would be usefull and would benefit all those stacking fortification items if mobs were to make 100% fort to be around 60% at best (possibly stacking 2 or 3 times for -10% or -15%). Crits would be feared.
Now everyone has 100% fort and wont worry 1 bit about crits.

It would also make that extra fort for WF and new Epic Chimera's Fang useful.
This way tanks with chimera would be more useful and needed and arcanes other than WFs would fear being hit be mobs for a lot of dmg.

I totally would like stacking fort debufs for mobs and maybe players too (other than rogue).
Well not all mobe but some of waves of mobs that would prep party for 2nd wave that will do more dmg.

I would like adding bard song that would add fort (like 20%) and decrease double strike attack. It would be an opposition what is now, since with alchemical weapons a lot of ppl will have that 6% double attack chance.

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Not sure why people fear crits so much. Rolling a 1 on Horoth's DBF is more damage than suffering a melee critical hit from him.

I only fear crits from one boss in game. Epic Demon of the Frenzied Blood.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sirgog

Not sure why people fear crits so much. Rolling a 1 on Horoth's DBF is more damage than suffering a melee critical hit from him.

I only fear crits from one boss in game. Epic Demon of the Frenzied Blood.

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I said it would be nice for mobs, not for bosses. Boss can do it too, but the main reason is for trash.

For example VOD. If wave of elite Ortons would decrease players fort, then every single beard devil could hurt them until their fort could be restored (it should take few min).

I always thought about trash mobs, but boss especially in VOD who does a random agro would should also have it :). It just would be fun in places when a lot mobs attack you at once or for epics.
Players would stop feeling so sure about their fort.

Also adding augumant crystal with exceptional fortification +10% (like Greater Stalwart Trinket) would be nice then.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NaturalHazard

what would the game be like with no khopesh and no esos?

would it totally kill 2handed fighting? would it mean all the melee would be using rapiers and scimitars? cept for monks of course.

Spell damage with dots now seems to do a lot of damage, im no number cruncher but is it higher than top end melee now?

---

if there was no Khopesh TWFers would be using scimitars, rapiers, and D-Axes. They'd take a 4-7% loss in DPS.

If there was no ESoS it would give Turbine the option to balance the styles instead of giving one ubber-weapon that you absolutely need that people have lost their sanity pursuing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LeLoric

You are also right with epics. There is no benefit to being ac geared and shield toting in epic content. Even the extra hp from the future changes just means defender builds are barbs but with significantly less dps.

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Without damage mitigation via AC it is pointless to tank via defenders when an DPS build can do it just fine.

Turbine's half-way there with the new stance changes, hopefully we'll see the other half.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grodon9999

If there was no ESoS it would give Turbine the option to balance the styles instead of giving one ubber-weapon that you absolutely need that people have lost their sanity pursuing.

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Some insane ppl still pursue it :D

After reading only a selected portion of this post due to the number of responses I just wanted to make 2 comments:

1. If you don't like 3d20 due to middle-weighting, how about simply d20x3 instead of 1d60 - retains the attack roll for critical hits etc... but doesn't mess with the d20

2. While I like the idea as layed out by Sirgog, I'm a little perturbed that it's "Sirgog's idea" -widening the AC window to help with the whole AC situation in DDO has been suggested by like a gazillion people as early as several years ago, and like a gazillion people before them playing epic levels in games like Neverwinter nights...the d20 system is broken for epic play period in pretty much any DnD-based game ever made (the fact that the devs don't seem to get this or don't seem to care is mind-blowing)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sirgog

Not sure why people fear crits so much. Rolling a 1 on Horoth's DBF is more damage than suffering a melee critical hit from him.

I only fear crits from one boss in game. Epic Demon of the Frenzied Blood.

---

Its not the fear of them, but instead of arbitarily just raising hp damage this provides a nastier damage spike.

And while Horoths DBF is more damage than a melee hit there are so many defenses against DBF almost no one ever takes significant damage from it, even a barb is likely to have some defense and its thrown far less than his melee. 1 by itself might not hurt, 1 followed by a DBF will. Fortification debuffs also work in favour of lower hp toons with a reasonable ac as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by noinfo

Its not the fear of them, but instead of arbitarily just raising hp damage this provides a nastier damage spike.

And while Horoths DBF is more damage than a melee hit there are so many defenses against DBF almost no one ever takes significant damage from it, even a barb is likely to have some defense and its thrown far less than his melee. 1 by itself might not hurt, 1 followed by a DBF will. Fortification debuffs also work in favour of lower hp toons with a reasonable ac as well.

---

Of course I recommend Heavy Fort to anyone tanking, just wanted to point out that it's not as significant a factor as people often claim.


From http://my.ddo.com/ddoqablog/2011/09/...fore-the-calm/ :

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MajMalphunktion

Let us talk about some of the hot button issues real quick:
...
AC issues: The reason there has been any communication is …we are really busy with current issues. Dev knows about the AC discussion, and know about the inherent issues with the system. But think about it, if AC was ‘the old way’ or the 3.5 system way, other than a few people, would anyone ever hit the Lord of Blades? Isn’t it more fun to hit, than to continually miss? I agree there could be some work on the upper levels, but think about what you are asking for. It is not a one way fix, if we fix it for players, the bad guys get the fix too. I’m sure this will be looked at in the near future, but no promises. For now-Hitting FUN, missing frustrating.

---

On Monster AC:


Prior to Update 9 making caster DPS against high-AC targets insanely high, I thought the game was headed in the direction of having more and more high AC bosses. We had the Demon of the Frenzied Blood (~63 AC, occasionally higher due to Dungeon Alert), Turigulon (67 and a DR that no +7 or higher weapon broke at the time he was introduced), Cojoined Abashai Devastator (~64 AC, also dispels +Hit buffs from time to time).

Players have quite a lot of ways to debuff monster AC - against Turigulon, my Bard hits him with Strength Sapping, Destruction and Improved Destruction* (-11 AC total), my Wizard with Acid Fog and Waves: Exhaustion (-7 AC), and my Favored Soul with Sundering Ooze Guard and Improved Destruction (-9 total IIRC).

However, post U9, all high AC mobs do is further marginalise melee players and puts them even further behind casters in the DPS race. Any future high AC boss needs at least a combined 50% Cold Absorb and/or Electric Absorb, and preferably ~25% Light Absorb as well, until the 3-stack DoTs get nerfed.

*Note - Imp Destruction is -4, not -8, but stacks with everything.


On Monster To-Hit

Still, I want to point out that there already are monsters that have To-Hits that vary from the d20 system due to the Minion debuff. I'd be guessing, but I'd pin the effective To-Hit of some of the undead mobs in the Sentinels epics at 58+2d20 or something like that. (Minion was, according to dev comments, coded as a '-1d20 penalty', so that equates to a base To-Hit of ~79, with a -1d20 applied per swing).

That's a To-Hit modification that applies only to monsters, not at all to players, and that works fine at what I presume was its goal (allowing exceptionally high player AC to provide moderate damage mitigation).

IMO there's nothing wrong with decoupling player To-Hit and monster To-Hit. We already decouple player HP from monster HP (some of the monsters in the Inspired Quarter Elite aren't too far over CR 20, but have in excess of 5000hp, the most players can attain on non-awful builds is ~960 or so; bosses are even further removed from player HP, with the CR 24 Black Abbot having ~135000 hp).

What I'm suggesting is to take the exception from the d20 system that is Minion, alongside the exception that is grazing hits, and use some variant of them as an alternative to the 103+1d20 To-Hit that Lailat has now on Live.


On Player AC:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide

Items should never, ever provide a Dodge bonus to AC.

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This ship has sailed, but those items - Chattering Ring, Icy Raiments, and a couple of other less-obnoxious ones like Chaosguarde - are the reason player AC is in the mess it is now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sirgog

On Player AC:



This ship has sailed, but those items - Chattering Ring, Icy Raiments, and a couple of other less-obnoxious ones like Chaosguarde - are the reason player AC is in the mess it is now.

---

Its true but its also like saying that GS weapons are the reason bosses hp etc are being scaled the way they are. It is basic inflation. They have continual power creep in weaponry that far surpasses any defensive items yet these are considered game breakers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MajMalphunktion
Let us talk about some of the hot button issues real quick:
...
AC issues: The reason there has been any communication is …we are really busy with current issues. Dev knows about the AC discussion, and know about the inherent issues with the system. But think about it, if AC was ‘the old way’ or the 3.5 system way, other than a few people, would anyone ever hit the Lord of Blades? Isn’t it more fun to hit, than to continually miss? I agree there could be some work on the upper levels, but think about what you are asking for. It is not a one way fix, if we fix it for players, the bad guys get the fix too. I’m sure this will be looked at in the near future, but no promises. For now-Hitting FUN, missing frustrating.



1. Well it could be a 1 way fix.
2. Even if it wasn't then it is easy to reballance their AC to suit yes there will be more misses but as sirgog said there are ways to ballance that.
3. I wonder if they really read this thread as most of it is based around making reasonable defense possible in game not just iterative attacks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sirgog

Of course I recommend Heavy Fort to anyone tanking, just wanted to point out that it's not as significant a factor as people often claim.

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That is incorrect. As was just explained above, crit vulnerability = ineffective tank.

Although allowing a boss monster to get crits may only raise the average melee DPS by 10% or so, it increases the variability of melee DPS by much more than that. As game designers well know, increased variability of combat outcomes favors the monsters. If a boss has a 10% chance to crit, then he's got a 1% chance for consequetive crits and a 0.1% chance to triple crit. That's burst damage, which is an opportunity for the monster to get lucky and kill the tank (which is usually worse for the players than if someone else had gotten killed)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sirgog

-snip-.

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read what maj said about 'if we fix it for monsters, we have to fix it for players.'

i think that's absolutely ridiculous to say. sure, fix AC for monsters, and give us the same hitpoint scaling as enemy mobs as well. we may only hit on a 16, but there's plenty of time to fight with those 30,000 hitpoints we'd be running around with in epics.

oh, and spells! while you're fixing AC on enemy mobs in order to 'balance' fixing AC for players, how about you give us infinite spellpoints, and make it impossible to be interrupted? and id LOVE to be able to cast hold person at level 2 in waterworks.

the point here being if it's fun to hit, let us hit- i totally agree. a high enough to-hit should be obtainable by any class just to keep each class competitive at endgame- a ranger with a +60 to-hit who hits harry on a 4 is not going to get into shroud, a barbarian running around with +80 to-hit, no problem.

it's an MMO. enemies are not going to behave like player characters. everything does not have to be 'the same on both sides'. it wouldnt even WORK if they tried. AC? give it to us, keep it as-is for epic mobs, or remove it from the game completely. Everything hits, every time.

id prefer the former. it allows more versatility in endgame builds. it's something the player base unanimously wants.

what's the harm in it?

Maj, if you are reading this:

Saying that Player and Monster AC/to hit has to work the same is pretty hypocritical don't you think?

The inflated HP/AC and dmg output, as well as attack speed and infinite SP are already a far cry from what is possible with the gear, feats and mechanics available to Players.

If you want it to be equal for both sides, then sure, give Horoth 95ac on Elite. Though we should be able to MDK his ac gear, dispell his buffs and slow him with not just Hamstring but Tendon slice too. Probably energy drain him too.

However you need balance in a computer game right? That is why the enemy stats are so inflated and given arbitrary bonuses to to-hit, damage and stats...and HP.

That is fine and we understand why...but to say that a change in enemy to-hit MUST affect players to-hit as well, is just avoiding the issue and feeding us **** IMO.

I appreciate that AC is on the to-do list and that you mentioned it in the blog, but please give us a bit more respect than what you said.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Angelus_dead

That is incorrect. As was just explained above, crit vulnerability = ineffective tank.

Although allowing a boss monster to get crits may only raise the average melee DPS by 10% or so, it increases the variability of melee DPS by much more than that. As game designers well know, increased variability of combat outcomes favors the monsters. If a boss has a 10% chance to crit, then he's got a 1% chance for consequetive crits and a 0.1% chance to triple crit. That's burst damage, which is an opportunity for the monster to get lucky and kill the tank (which is usually worse for the players than if someone else had gotten killed)

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Increased randomness in a fight actually favors the underdog, which may or may not be the monsters. Take the Black Abbot raid, pre 10.1 for an example - many mediocre groups completed it successfully if and only if the Abbot never cast Inferno. The players were the underdogs, but the randomness of which specials were used made them able to win perhaps 30% of the time.

A non-random system that had him open with Encasement, then cycle Inferno - Phase Wraiths - Disjunction - Encasement - would never allow such a group to complete.

Which is why 33% Fire Absorb and 75% Fortification is better than 0% Fire Absorb and 100% Fortification on the most important boss to tank (Horoth). It prevents the deadly spike damage of taking 200-240 damage out of nowhere from a DBF failed save (and lets be honest, many a tank fails this on more than just a 1), while giving a slight chance for a 160(Norm)/180(Hard)/200(Elite) melee crit.

Because of Horoth's very weak critical profile (19-20/x2 on bite and claws), many tanks would be better off with a +5 Resistance item or 33% Fire Absorb than a Heavy Fortification item while tanking him.

The bosses that crit hard, on the other hand (Velah to an extent, Demon of the Frenzied Blood) - 100% Fort or don't try.

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Originally Posted by sirgog

Increased randomness in a fight actually favors the underdog, which may or may not be the monsters. Take the Black Abbot raid, pre 10.1 for an example - many mediocre groups completed it successfully if and only if the Abbot never cast Inferno. The players were the underdogs, but the randomness of which specials were used made them able to win perhaps 30% of the time.

A non-random system that had him open with Encasement, then cycle Inferno - Phase Wraiths - Disjunction - Encasement - would never allow such a group to complete.

Which is why 33% Fire Absorb and 75% Fortification is better than 0% Fire Absorb and 100% Fortification on the most important boss to tank (Horoth). It prevents the deadly spike damage of taking 200-240 damage out of nowhere from a DBF failed save (and lets be honest, many a tank fails this on more than just a 1), while giving a slight chance for a 160(Norm)/180(Hard)/200(Elite) melee crit.

Because of Horoth's very weak critical profile (19-20/x2 on bite and claws), many tanks would be better off with a +5 Resistance item or 33% Fire Absorb than a Heavy Fortification item while tanking him.

The bosses that crit hard, on the other hand (Velah to an extent, Demon of the Frenzied Blood) - 100% Fort or don't try.

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Fort debuffs or removing 100% fort on one item + AC viability in Elite/Epic = More fun and would encourage more active combat than standing around doing the tank and spank.

I think everyone can agree this would make tanking harder but more interesting, than doubling boss HP?

Personally, I would be more than happy to see some monsters with ACs as high as the stable (i.e., without buffs lasting a minute or less) ACs that players can reach as long as no monster has a to-hit higher than the stable to-hits that players can reach. Not every monster would have an AC that high, of course, just as not every player has high AC. Also, just like players, monsters with ACs that high should have to give up something else, such as hit points or damage.

Regarding fortification, I'd like to see a fortification debuff applied to all characters based on difficulty. -10% for hard, -25% for elite, -50% for epic. Builds with racial, insightful or exceptional fortification will still be able to stay close to 100% but others will have a bit more of a risk factor.

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Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off

Regarding fortification, I'd like to see a fortification debuff applied to all characters based on difficulty. -10% for hard, -25% for elite, -50% for epic. Builds with racial, insightful or exceptional fortification will still be able to stay close to 100% but others will have a bit more of a risk factor.

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That's interesting... Not sure about it over all but it is at least interesting.



I would like to see a few effects and abilities reduce fortification

Sunder 5%
Improved Sunder (I think they are making it 10% reduction)
Destruction 5%
Improved Destruction 10%
And maybe instead of its current benefit the Earth Earth Earth Finisher for monks could reduce Fortification by 15-20% as well
Additionally perhaps Curse effects could reduce Fortification by an amount.

Aesop

Fort reducing has a quite severe side effect in warforged and necros getting an edge. Imo a big one, but of course depending on amount reduced. Edit. Could be solved by making stuff not stacking. But that could be a quite severe move.

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Originally Posted by phum

Fort reducing has a quite severe side effect in warforged and necros getting an edge. Imo a big one, but of course depending on amount reduced. Edit. Could be solved by making stuff not stacking. But that could be a quite severe move.

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That's not necessarily a bad thing. Its unlikely that a single mob would start tossing out a bunch of different fort reducers simultaneously, and there are a few other sources of Fortification increasing effects that dedicated tanks could get to supplement their Heavy Fort.

Aesop

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Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off

Regarding fortification, I'd like to see a fortification debuff applied to all characters based on difficulty. -10% for hard, -25% for elite, -50% for epic. Builds with racial, insightful or exceptional fortification will still be able to stay close to 100% but others will have a bit more of a risk factor.

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Well those numbers are for me a bit overboard, but doing it like 10%/20%/30% and maybe some mobs could decrees fort like destruction does with AC - it could be very funny :D.

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Originally Posted by Khellendros13

...more active combat than standing around doing the tank and spank.

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I think that since Intimi got nerfed and tank needs to fight its all ok now. Tanking is just more than holding a shift and using intimi.

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Originally Posted by Aesop

That's not necessarily a bad thing. Its unlikely that a single mob would start tossing out a bunch of different fort reducers simultaneously, and there are a few other sources of Fortification increasing effects that dedicated tanks could get to supplement their Heavy Fort.

Aesop

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True. But when and if most of those debuffs are applied on hit, the impact will be very severe on melees without high ac. I understand that there is a need to make ac matter, but imo it should not be necessary for a melee to have high ac. Debuffin fort significantly will do that. imo. And warforged casters and necroes will be unaffected:) I like the idea a lot in principle, but it dont sit well with how I see the current class balance.

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Originally Posted by phum

True. But when and if most of those debuffs are applied on hit, the impact will be very severe on melees without high ac. I understand that there is a need to make ac matter, but imo it should not be necessary for a melee to have high ac. Debuffin fort significantly will do that. imo. And warforged casters and necroes will be unaffected:) I like the idea a lot in principle, but it dont sit well with how I see the current class balance.

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That is why I was looking at small bonuses across a few different effects. I have never noticed a mob swinging a destruction weapon, but I have seen a mob swing sunder.

I have never noticed a mob swing a triple earth finisher either

I have seen mobs dish out a Curse though.

I figure if we spread out the Fort Debuffs across Feats, Spells, Weapon Effect, Special Attacks, possibly as part of a Guard Effect, it should be a broad enough spectrum so that it supports the party dynamic

Aesop

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Originally Posted by xandariant

I think that since Intimi got nerfed and tank needs to fight its all ok now. Tanking is just more than holding a shift and using intimi.

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Standing around and swinging is not really active combat, its an improvement but not by alot. If you have your fortification being reduced below say 50% by multiple debuffs you may need to actually swap across to the next tank to allow your debuffs to wear off ie a more active type of combat vs boss then 1 in front and 11 behind for the entire fight.

So according to Mal, AC will remain useless in 99% of the game beyond level 8 and a couple raids and S&B will remain useless in all but 3 or 4 raids...

Nice... :o:cool:

It's clearly not the easy fix SOME people think it would be, but it COULD be fixed if they wanted to bother...

And BTW, I agee 100% that the Icy Rainments were what kicked the AC dog for the final time... One of the worst most game unbalancing pieces of gear ever added to the game.

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Originally Posted by smatt

So according to Mal, AC will remain useless in 99% of the game beyond level 8 and a couple raids and S&B will remain useless in all but 3 or 4 raids...

Nice... :o:cool:

It's clearly not the easy fix SOME people think it would be, but it COULD be fixed if they wanted to bother...

And BTW, I agee 100% that the Icy Rainments were what kicked the AC dog for the final time... One of the worst most game unbalancing pieces of gear ever added to the game.

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Well they could put some fixes in like +10 AC if using a shield and CE together - which is probably the fastest and easiest soloution to alot of problems.

But your right they cant be bothered, this thread is being treated like every other perfectly good AC discussion thread with plenty of good ideas for fixes like the one I just mentioned.

8700+ views, 280+ posts, Dev interaction = 0

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Well they could put some fixes in like +10 AC if using a shield and CE together - which is probably the fastest and easiest soloution to alot of problems.

But your right they cant be bothered, this thread is being treated like every other perfectly good AC discussion thread with plenty of good ideas for fixes like the one I just mentioned.

8700+ views, 280+ posts, Dev interaction = 0

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That could be interesting for Shield Tanks I mean Two Handed Weapons double up on Power Attack so I could see Combat Expertise granting Double the bonus while using a Shield.

I still would like to see Shield Mitigation expanded out a little having another avenue for Damage mitigation other than AC, DR and Miss Chance is interesting and could actually be a nice option.

Aesop

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Well they could put some fixes in like +10 AC if using a shield and CE together - which is probably the fastest and easiest soloution to alot of problems.

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That would fix some of the balance issues between PJ tanks and S+B tanks.

Still the problem of AC, being nearly useless late game and 100% useless in epics, remains.

There should be 3 sorts of mitigation (well there is but they are not used to provide depth in gameplay).

Fortification, AC, and DR

IMO Shield tanks should gain DR not more AC. I had a post earlier in this thread about giving a percent chance to act as a shield block when hit.

But the major thing I don't want to see is all of these benefits being tied to the defensive PrEs. They should cost feats, or DPS via using a shield.

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Originally Posted by Aesop

That could be interesting for Shield Tanks I mean Two Handed Weapons double up on Power Attack so I could see Combat Expertise granting Double the bonus while using a Shield.

I still would like to see Shield Mitigation expanded out a little having another avenue for Damage mitigation other than AC, DR and Miss Chance is interesting and could actually be a nice option.

Aesop

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Well the other easy option for Shields would be = use a shield = immune to grazing hits.

One is CE related when using a shield the other makes using a shield worth while

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Originally Posted by CaptGrim

That would fix some of the balance issues between PJ tanks and S+B tanks.

Still the problem of AC, being nearly useless late game and 100% useless in epics, remains.

There should be 3 sorts of mitigation (well there is but they are not used to provide depth in gameplay).

Fortification, AC, and DR

IMO Shield tanks should gain DR not more AC. I had a post earlier in this thread about giving a percent chance to act as a shield block when hit.

But the major thing I don't want to see is all of these benefits being tied to the defensive PrEs. They should cost feats, or DPS via using a shield.

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Agreed. All three defensive attributes should be in use. imo its fine if pjs have a bit more ac, if sb has more dr and possibly also fort. fort could be tied to armor type also.

I also agree on the cost being in feats (imo also enhancements with feat/prof as req is fine) is good. Would make it more flexible than the pres, which currently are quite important for ac.

Oh man.. what huge changes we want:D Soon they'll just copy paste the lyrics of king nothing in the blog...

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Well the other easy option for Shields would be = use a shield = immune to grazing hits.

One is CE related when using a shield the other makes using a shield worth while

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Blocking DR should apply to grazing hits.

What bugs me about shield mastery is a +1 Wooden Tower Shield stops more than an Epic Kundarak Warding shield (correct me if I'm wrong).

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Well they could put some fixes in like +10 AC if using a shield and CE together - which is probably the fastest and easiest soloution to alot of problems.

But your right they cant be bothered, this thread is being treated like every other perfectly good AC discussion thread with plenty of good ideas for fixes like the one I just mentioned.

8700+ views, 280+ posts, Dev interaction = 0

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Well that could be part of a potential change, along with the change to the PRE's currently on Lama and planned for live on Monday. More static DR on shields, light, medium, and most assuredly heavy armor would be another smart move.

I don't like the idea of unhittable AC though... Only being hit on a 20 is a good thing period.. Even if your AC 199... :eek: That's game breaking... I also don't like the idea of penalizing the dress wearing crowd, while I also don't think they should recieve any additional benefits either. Substantial armor wearing folk should be less affected by grazing hits, sheild users even less so and the combo of both even less. I made these points back when DA and grazing hits etc were first implemented... 2 years ago... Of course this problem has been ignored for 2 years :o

But as others have said, when it comes to end game and epics. Well as long as they leave the caster easy buttons, it really won't matter... Since the fastest most efficient way will still be CASTER power :D And all this would do would me the pawer whittle tanks they drag along will take LESS caster class resources to keep them from going all ghostly..... And I hate to say what I just said, because now peoel are going to go all Hell Hound because I've implied that casters should get nerfed. :eek:

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Originally Posted by Aesop

I have never noticed a mob swinging a destruction weapon, but I have seen a mob swing sunder.

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Kai-teng in Litany swings a destruction weapon :p

Have you guys read the latest bunch of BS from dev team?

they said they cant fix AC for players without making MOBS AC so high that we cant hit them?

hows that for ignorance?\
have fun ... discuss.

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Originally Posted by sweez

Kai-teng in Litany swings a destruction weapon :p

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He does and he also vorps pesky casters with no deathward ;)

I've laughed my behind off in there more than once :D

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Originally Posted by Drfirewater79

Have you guys read the latest bunch of BS from dev team?

they said they cant fix AC for players without making MOBS AC so high that we cant hit them?

hows that for ignorance?\
have fun ... discuss.

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Got link? The really doesn't make any sense at all.

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Originally Posted by grodon9999

Got link? The really doesn't make any sense at all.

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http://my.ddo.com/ddoqablog/2011/09/...-1/#comment-53

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Originally Posted by sephiroth1084

http://my.ddo.com/ddoqablog/2011/09/...-1/#comment-53

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Thanks, for those too lazy to click the link . . .

AC issues: The reason there has been any communication is …we are really busy with current issues. Dev knows about the AC discussion, and know about the inherent issues with the system. But think about it, if AC was ‘the old way’ or the 3.5 system way, other than a few people, would anyone ever hit the Lord of Blades? Isn’t it more fun to hit, than to continually miss? I agree there could be some work on the upper levels, but think about what you are asking for. It is not a one way fix, if we fix it for players, the bad guys get the fix too. I’m sure this will be looked at in the near future, but no promises. For now-Hitting FUN, missing frustrating.

Okay, let me be the first to say that this is absolute nonsense, a pure unadulterated cop-out. Seriously, with no response we could just assume that you were too busy with other stuff to address us. This answer shows extreme ignorance to the mechanics of your own game.

I am extremely disappointed with this answer.

Monster and player HP are in no way similar. Saying that mob and player to-hits/ACs needs to work the same is laughable. As laughable as that other dev being surprised he didn't see more people with shields in the new raids on Lamania.

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Originally Posted by smatt

He does and he also vorps pesky casters with no deathward ;)

I've laughed my behind off in there more than once :D

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Do those casters not realise that they should be 'Kai-teng' him around while he's in Vorpal phase (at least if they insist on soloing without Deathward)? The name gives it away...

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Originally Posted by grodon9999

Blocking DR should apply to grazing hits.

What bugs me about shield mastery is a +1 Wooden Tower Shield stops more than an Epic Kundarak Warding shield (correct me if I'm wrong).

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Grazes would need to hit harder if blocking DR applied. A lot harder.

On the eKWS vs +1 TS, you are right. Perhaps instead of a flat 25% (Tower Shield with two feats), the mitigation provided could be 20% + 1.5% per point of enhancement bonus on your shield. (15% + 1.5% per point for Large Shields). That would make the +7 epic shields the best in the game. However, it might push Alchemical Shields to the point of ridiculousness - this would again need to be tested.

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Originally Posted by sirgog

Grazes would need to hit harder if blocking DR applied. A lot harder.

On the eKWS vs +1 TS, you are right. Perhaps instead of a flat 25% (Tower Shield with two feats), the mitigation provided could be 20% + 1.5% per point of enhancement bonus on your shield. (15% + 1.5% per point for Large Shields). That would make the +7 epic shields the best in the game. However, it might push Alchemical Shields to the point of ridiculousness - this would again need to be tested.

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So a % of blocking DR can affect grazes.

Despite that ridiculous Dev comment, AC is still the best way to address damage mitigation, give CE 10 points so S&B is back in the lead. The fact that just having a shield, any shield, giving 25% damage mitigation is stupid.

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Originally Posted by grodon9999

So a % of blocking DR can affect grazes.

Despite that ridiculous Dev comment, AC is still the best way to address damage mitigation, give CE 10 points so S&B is back in the lead. The fact that just having a shield, any shield, giving 25% damage mitigation is stupid.

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A Percent chance to block any incoming hits(including grazes) providing your full blocking DR would be best IMO.

Percent chance based on feats and not Shield type. The mechanics for blocking DR are in place and work well, lets use them.

10%/30%/50% S. prof/S. mastery/Imp S. mastery

ofc removing the existing flat % mitigation would be necessary.

Edit: I wouldn't add the +10 AC for CE, it only balances end game and borks all <lvl15 content. Plus with the numbers above I think the net mitigation gain would be more than enuf to give to sheild users to balance loss of DPS and the slight catch up they play in the AC race .

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Originally Posted by grodon9999

Thanks, for those too lazy to click the link . . .

For now-Hitting FUN, missing frustrating.

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Wasn't one of goals of the grazing hits to remove the frustration (on the player side) of not being able to hit things with high AC? Can we conclude then that the grazing hits system failed to achieve this goal? It's obvious that the grazing hits system failed in its other announced goal of allowing reduced monster to-hit while still ensuring that high-AC players took at least some damage, given that monster to-hit hasn't been reduced. Has the grazing hits system succeeded in doing anything it was intended to do, then? If not, why hasn't it been removed?

Gving CE +10 is jsut putting S&B FURTHER down the DPS ladder to the point of being a CR .5 kobold.. Pointless would create too many new problems.... Ya who.... I have a shield and a 125 AC but I can't hit a darn thing and even IF I did hit it, it would just laugh at me when I did 7 points of damage Moving on to "Good" ideas.

Who uses a shield when in DPS-mode? Monky-spashes as well take large AC hits when in DPS mode.

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Originally Posted by Meriadeuc

Wasn't one of goals of the grazing hits to remove the frustration (on the player side) of not being able to hit things with high AC? Can we conclude then that the grazing hits system failed to achieve this goal? It's obvious that the grazing hits system failed in its other announced goal of allowing reduced monster to-hit while still ensuring that high-AC players took at least some damage, given that monster to-hit hasn't been reduced. Has the grazing hits system succeeded in doing anything it was intended to do, then? If not, why hasn't it been removed?

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Especially since the mobs in epic have very high ACs with no explanation. Like an ogre in a loint-cloth or a Sucibis in a Mithril Thong.

Eladrin's answer just doesn't make any sense and should be accomanied with a big picture of Chewbacca.

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Originally Posted by grodon9999

Especially since the mobs in epic have very high ACs with no explanation. Like an ogre in a loint-cloth or a Sucibis in a Mithril Thong.

Eladrin's answer just doesn't make any sense and should be accomanied with a big picture of Chewbacca.

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did the ogre in a loin clothe and a succumbis in a thong splash monk and are they very wise? Do they have exceptional wis/dex items? High base dexterity, the thong is an icey rainments thong, they also got themselves a chattering ring?:D

chewbacca has a very high AC why do you think all those storm troopers keep missing that target thats the size of a barn door?

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Originally Posted by NaturalHazard

did the ogre in a loin clothe and a succumbis in a thong splash monk and are they very wise? Do they have exceptional wis/dex items? High base dexterity, the thong is an icey rainments thong, they also got themselves a chattering ring?:D

chewbacca has a very high AC why do you think all those storm troopers keep missing that target thats the size of a barn door?

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Chewbacca must have had evasion.

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Originally Posted by Meriadeuc

Wasn't one of goals of the grazing hits to remove the frustration (on the player side) of not being able to hit things with high AC? Can we conclude then that the grazing hits system failed to achieve this goal? It's obvious that the grazing hits system failed in its other announced goal of allowing reduced monster to-hit while still ensuring that high-AC players took at least some damage, given that monster to-hit hasn't been reduced. Has the grazing hits system succeeded in doing anything it was intended to do, then? If not, why hasn't it been removed?

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Thing is grazing hits seem to be much more useful for the mobs than for the players. The mob has 1000's of hit points the player most often under a 1000. A grazing hit to something with a smaller hp pool will make more of a difference while if its hitting something with 1000's of hitpoints it would be like a raindrop into the ocean?

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Originally Posted by CaptGrim

A Percent chance to block any incoming hits(including grazes) providing your full blocking DR would be best IMO.

Percent chance based on feats and not Shield type. The mechanics for blocking DR are in place and work well, lets use them.

10%/30%/50% S. prof/S. mastery/Imp S. mastery

ofc removing the existing flat % mitigation would be necessary.

Edit: I wouldn't add the +10 AC for CE, it only balances end game and borks all <lvl15 content. Plus with the numbers above I think the net mitigation gain would be more than enuf to give to sheild users to balance loss of DPS and the slight catch up they play in the AC race .

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I offered that idea up about 2-3 years ago. Wonder if I can find the original idea...

I don't really mind the flat Mitigation Percentage over all... I just wish it was fully fleshed out as part of character defense.

Armor bonuses and Shield bonuses and other bonuses to improve overall mitigation


oh well

Aesop

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Originally Posted by smatt

Gving CE +10 is jsut putting S&B FURTHER down the DPS ladder to the point of being a CR .5 kobold.. Pointless would create too many new problems.... Ya who.... I have a shield and a 125 AC but I can't hit a darn thing and even IF I did hit it, it would just laugh at me when I did 7 points of damage Moving on to "Good" ideas.

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little exaggerated don't ya think.

I mean you're only really losing Power Attack DPS, and since you are in Tank Mode typically when you have CE on I don't think it would be that big of a deal.

They will still have a decent strength and the associated bursty weapon of uber slaying (whatever it so happens to be litII or whatever)

Yeah they won't be pumping out TWF or THF DPS but they'll be more 60-75% DPS of the others if built reasonably. Maybe less than that I'm not sure really.

Along those lines I would also like to see a higher Shield Bash Proc. Start Shield Bash Proc at 10% and then have ISB increase it by 20% and have SM and ISM improve it some more 5-10%. 40-50% shield bash is far more reasonable than 20%.

Aesop

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Originally Posted by NaturalHazard

Thing is grazing hits seem to be much more useful for the mobs than for the players. The mob has 1000's of hit points the player most often under a 1000.

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The reason Grazing Hits are more useful for monsters than players:
1. Monsters will more often have high base physical weapon damage, which means the grazes hit for a meaningful fraction of the regular damage. Players have only a little of their weapon damage from the base weapon (esos changes that a little)
2. Players only uncommonly score grazes: if their d20 roll was high enough to graze, it was probably also high enough to hit AC.

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Originally Posted by smatt

Gving CE +10 is jsut putting S&B FURTHER down the DPS ladder to the point of being a CR .5 kobold.. Pointless would create too many new problems.... Ya who.... I have a shield and a 125 AC but I can't hit a darn thing and even IF I did hit it, it would just laugh at me when I did 7 points of damage Moving on to "Good" ideas.

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Care to share the math on how CE +10 puts S/B further down the DPS ladder? It is pretty obvious that they still retain the -5 to attack and gain an additional benefit of and additiona +5 Ac in the SAME way PA operates with two handed weapons.

Infact they are going to probably hit almost as easily as a two haded fighter as they DO NOT have the additional -2 to hit from 2 weapon fighting.

While they are fighting with a shield they are getting full damage from grazing hits and now that fortification has increased on bosses the difference between many of those other weapon types have shifted partially back toward daxe and bsword. Add to that the extra hate and they will do fine. In situations where they do not have agro or want a dps option they have one with 2 handed weapons.

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Originally Posted by noinfo

Care to share the math on how CE +10 puts S/B further down the DPS ladder? It is pretty obvious that they still retain the -5 to attack and gain an additional benefit of and additiona +5 Ac in the SAME way PA operates with two handed weapons.

Infact they are going to probably hit almost as easily as a two haded fighter as they DO NOT have the additional -2 to hit from 2 weapon fighting.

While they are fighting with a shield they are getting full damage from grazing hits and now that fortification has increased on bosses the difference between many of those other weapon types have shifted partially back toward daxe and bsword. Add to that the extra hate and they will do fine. In situations where they do not have agro or want a dps option they have one with 2 handed weapons.

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He might be thinking we are suggesting the +10 to AC gives a -10 to attack, nobody is suggesting that. We are suggesting the -5 to attack gives a +10 to AC when shields are equipped.

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Originally Posted by grodon9999

He might be thinking we are suggesting the +10 to AC gives a -10 to attack, nobody is suggesting that. We are suggesting the -5 to attack gives a +10 to AC when shields are equipped.

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Still a good idea, but it's fairly clear from that Dev responce that they have 99% finished with any AC options and wont be looking at this at all within the next few years.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Still a good idea, but it's fairly clear from that Dev responce that they have 99% finished with any AC options and wont be looking at this at all within the next few years.

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Well, even MajorM thinks the high levels need some work. And he thinks this will be looked at. One wonders why he thinks any of this, since his claim that a fix for players would make it impossible to hit monsters was so beyond the pale that it doesn't even deserve comment.

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Originally Posted by Faent

Well, even MajorM thinks the high levels need some work. And he thinks this will be looked at. One wonders why he thinks any of this, since his claim that a fix for players would make it impossible to hit monsters was so beyond the pale that it doesn't even deserve comment.

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That just means that he has not even read through or looked at this thread and some of the ideas being bounced around for fixes that would not have anything to do with his answer.

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Originally Posted by grodon9999

He might be thinking we are suggesting the +10 to AC gives a -10 to attack, nobody is suggesting that. We are suggesting the -5 to attack gives a +10 to AC when shields are equipped.

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That kind of what I was thinking..... But as others have said, +10 AC with CE, that would be way too much at lower levels. Perhaps if it was tiered as you level up. But all this does is give higher AC, and so might be useful in a couple raids, but the rest of the game.... Simply giving S&B a higher AC with shield equipped and CE active isn't doesn't solve the problem through out the game with how shields/AC work/Armor works. It could be part of the solution, but not the solution.

Going to pose a few questions to the Devs in a new post related to player AC later.

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Originally Posted by sirgog

Going to pose a few questions to the Devs in a new post related to player AC later.

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Good luck...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grodon9999

Chewbacca must have had evasion.

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Didn't you know? Wookies get evasion for free at level 6!