Ranger: Arcane Archer Changes (Early Autumn Edition)

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

A reminder that we don't expect this to be the last time we touch the Arcane Archer tree. We are sad we can't get to everything we'd like to right now, but realistically we're looking at a lot of work for update 29 coming soon, and we didn't want to push Arcane Archer entirely out of 2015. We do appreciate the many ideas here, though (some of which mirror ideas we've been thinking of anyway, or which are better than ideas we'd been thinking).




Slaying Arrows are so ridiculously powerful that we're pretty sure there's range somewhere between for "pulling back" and "meh". We also don't have any specific plans for Slaying Arrow right now - any changes to it are going to be dependent on DPS testing. Part of the reason for this is because we feel having so much of the power of AA in this one ability isn't healthy and also makes it harder to balance the tree. We would not want to have to nerf everything else in the tree just to make Slayer Arrow extra super powerful. (For instance, if we find we have to drop 250 to 200... it's still going to be incredibly awesome.)


As mentioned several times, we have more changes planned. Just not Soon^tm, unfortunately.


An interesting idea, but Manyshot is intended to be essentially class-agnostic. That doesn't mean it's entirely impossible, but we wouldn't want to the word "Ranger" to show up anywhere directly in the ManyShot feat.

We could add new automatically granted feats to the Ranger class that affect Manyshot, but we tend to shy away from that if there's another way. Still, duration of abilities another interesting knob we could adjust, and it's good to remember all the tools in the toolbox.



Doubleshot and Manyshot both create additional real arrows in the world, each making their own separate, constant collision checks as they fly through the air.

It's not ideal. It's also deep in the code and risky to touch.

Additionally, it's not merely the collision checks that cause issues. Adding all of the extra on-hit effects (including damage effects) is not insignificant, and something we try to cut down on when we can. (For instance, in designing new items and abilities, etc.)

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Slaying Arrows are so ridiculously powerful that we're pretty sure there's range somewhere between for "pulling back" and "meh". We also don't have any specific plans for Slaying Arrow right now - any changes to it are going to be dependent on DPS testing. Part of the reason for this is because we feel having so much of the power of AA in this one ability isn't healthy and also makes it harder to balance the tree. We would not want to have to nerf everything else in the tree just to make Slayer Arrow extra super powerful. (For instance, if we find we have to drop 250 to 200... it's still going to be incredibly awesome.)

when you have melee that can do 1000 pts with a hit or casters that do 10,000 with ruin or warlocks that clear a room of trash with tentecles and 3 blasts, how can you say 250 or 200 is overpowered. with the nerf to manyshot this won't stack as high with less arrows, correct?

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Originally Posted by Requiro

- Nerf to Burst damage (400% vs (200% + RP) or with hope (264% + RP))
- Nerf to on hit effect because lower amount or Arrows in total
- Massive Nerf for leveling (Number of arrows: lvl 6 1,24 vs 2; lvl 11 1,44 vs 3; lvl 16 1,64 vs 4)
- Massive Nerf for new players (above AND no doubleshoot Past Lives)
- Still the best, miles away then other build will be monkcher (+1 critical multiplier is just not enough...)

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For leveling, the number of arrows already scales with BAB.

We're concerned about monkcher vs. pure ranger vs. racial elf balance. It's a hard problem, and every single solution we've seen so far compromises one way or another. Thanks to everyone who's been giving some suggestions along these lines. Figuring out the right compromises is difficult.

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For Burst damage:
- Remove Cap with Double shoot (and call it Multishoot)
- Add +1[W] while Manyshot is Active

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We're actively trying to smooth out the damage for Archers. We understand many players really do like the burst aspect of Manyshot, and we don't want that to disappear, but making Archers more bursty than they are currently is definitely not the direction we're looking for.

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- Add Ranged Alacrity 5% on level 12 Ranger, 10% on level 16 Ranger and 15% on level 20 Ranger. It's not stack with Haste, so most Veterans will ignore that bonus, but New players will be happy to have one.

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This is a dangerous ability in terms of actually making players happy. Veterans don't ignore bonuses like these, they tend to consistently be upset that it's not something they would find more useful. A frequent problem in item design is that we cannot put on "extra" fun or cool or thematic effects onto items without knowing there will be complaints. If you see "Featherfall" on an item and you don't feel like you need Featherfall, there's a good chance you'll be upset that it's not something else you do want -- even if the item designer wasn't considering that any part of the item's real power, but just put it on because they named it, "Roc Lobster" and felt a bird-related power was thematic. This has been proven true time and again across many players.

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- Add new spells, that will improve QoL for Rangers, when leveling (there are some suggestion around, mine is here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...y-2-new-Spell))

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Maybe someday.

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For on hit effect:
- Adjust number of Arrows in total 120 second to be close that we have today by adding passive Doubleshoot in Manyshot feat.

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I'm not sure what this means. If you mean reducing the number of arrows you get while manyshot is active and getting more while it's not active, that's already true with the current proposal (that reduces number of arrows while active and removes the doubleshot buff). If it's not something like that, I'm not sure I understand. (Adding passive Doubleshot is an idea, but not having -100% adds a lot already...)

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Originally Posted by Ultria

The part that I do find ambiguous is the "Elemental Damage". Is it that you can chose to add 2d8 at each tier to a specific damage type and can simply chose the same type multiple times and it is added to the already existing damage.

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Elemental Damage adds two more dice to each of the elemental stances you've already taken. Elemental Damage isn't tied to a particular element.

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Does this mean that it would be 11d8 for one element and 4d8 for the rest? This would be somewhat balanced with SA and KotC actually. SA dice are handed out like party favors, but fort keeps SA in check. KotC is unstoppable (IIRC, bonus: vampires are weak to it) but also brings ghost touch, vorpals undead, and capstone makes everything good. The elemental damage can be resisted and immuned by many things, forcing a stance change or respec. Even 7d8 would be substantial compared to the current 1d6, but pretty weak compared to SA and KotC.

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If you take Fire at tier 1 (for instance) you start with 1d8. If you only take Elemental Damage after that, four times, you'd end up at 9d8. I personally wouldn't recommended skipping tier 5 Improved Elemental Arrows, but it's an option.

If you took Fire at tier 1 and Cold at tier 2, each would then be at 2d8, because they all give +1d8 to each element. You give up an element choice to get another +1d8 to each element you did take.

So you could get both Fire and Cold up to 8d8 if you wanted, assuming you take Elemental Damage at tiers 3,4,5.

To put it another way, these Elemental Stances deal damage equal to:

• 1d8 per Element you pick
• 2d8 per Elemental Damage you pick (which doesn't give a new Element option).

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Originally Posted by Ganak

To incentivize a 50/50 ranged/melee ranger, would you consider a high melee bonus to AA capstone or level5 tier ability?

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No.

Deepwood Stalker is explicitly designed for melee/ranged builds.

Arcane Archer is not really intended for melee builds, and we don't expect to change that.

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

An interesting idea, but Manyshot is intended to be essentially class-agnostic. That doesn't mean it's entirely impossible, but we wouldn't want to the word "Ranger" to show up anywhere directly in the ManyShot feat.

We could add new automatically granted feats to the Ranger class that affect Manyshot, but we tend to shy away from that if there's another way. Still, duration of abilities another interesting knob we could adjust, and it's good to remember all the tools in the toolbox.

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Thank you.

As a pure arty I alternate Endless Fuselodge and Manyshot on several toons. Typically I get off 2 Endless Fuselodges while Manyshot is on cool down.

Sidenote, last weekend I finally finished Livmo's Pinion and slotted it witha ruby. Funny, because I have other toons like this with a maxed Pinion and still working on their Needles.

Hi Varg

While you're answering questions could I ask if there's any indication of what spellpower multiple will apply to elemental arrows and whether empower or maximise will be allowed to count towards that?

Thanks

[QUOTE=Vargouille;5702680]For leveling, the number of arrows already scales with BAB.

We're concerned about monkcher vs. pure ranger vs. racial elf balance. It's a hard problem, and every single solution we've seen so far compromises one way or another. Thanks to everyone who's been giving some suggestions along these lines. Figuring out the right compromises is difficult.

{/QUOTE]

there is now way to balance moncher vs ranger vs elf unless you tie cooldowns for ranger and monk. any buff to ranger pushes moncher up unless it's in 18+ ranger core or tied to ranger level to give ranger a bigger boost than moncher.

nerf anything in the tree and ranger hurts more as moncher has monk abillities to fall back on.

ie nerf manyshot and monchers move to doubleshot and 10k use instead and rangers loose. nerf 10k and rangers don't care. monchers move to manyshot and doubleshot instead. only way is to make many shot and 10k better for those with more ranger or monk levels respectibly while making those with both a little less than having only one. ie tie ranger levels to manyshot bonus and monk levels to 10k bonus. so full or 18 ranger have better manyshot than lvl 6 and 18 monk has better 10k than lvl 6. and if 10 ranger 10 monk, then you have both but at a lesser power than pure. but having both makes up that gap and maybe a little more.

- Add Ranged Alacrity 5% on level 12 Ranger, 10% on level 16 Ranger and 15% on level 20 Ranger. It's not stack with Haste, so most Veterans will ignore that bonus, but New players will be happy to have one.

This would be good for rangers to make up the moncher difference and help the needed dps capacity if it stacks with haste as many others have indicated that a booste to bow speed is needed to keep up with other ranged classes that got it when it wasn't appropriate at the time compared to other ranged styles. ie crossbows. why is great crossbow better than a bow? a great crossbow should take rounds to reload. ie fire 3x faster with bow for much less damage than a great crossbow does. (d6 vs d12)

We've had a lot of discussions about DC, and we're currently inclined to keep them scaling with Wisdom and Enchantment.

• We know there are lore reasons for CHA and INT (or just INT, if you go way back). We're sympathetic to this. There are further ramifications to choosing or allowing INT or CHA that we're currently not looking for (interactions with Harper and Mechanic, for instance.)
• We know Dexterity would probably be the most (easily) powerful. Power does not the same thing as good or interesting builds.
• We know players are mostly not building for max Wisdom right now. That doesn't mean it should be bad to allow it to strengthen an existing ability.
• Yes, we know monks often build a lot of Wisdom (though it may or may not be a primary stat for each build). We don't expect that this particular change is going to be responsible for monkchers being overpowered. We are trying to balance monkchers and there could be further changes relating to them and AA, but we don't think this is the place to do it. (Amongst other things, DPS is probably a bigger consideration and this wouldn't greatly affect that.)

The 20 + Wisdom + Enchantment proposal remains an improvement for nearly all Arcane Archers, and with only moderate build consideration is quite a lot stronger (equipping a single strong Wisdom item somewhere, for instance). Full dedication to these DCs rivals the DCs of full caster classes, and we don't want them to exceed those caster DCs.

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

The 20 + Wisdom + Enchantment proposal remains an improvement for nearly all Arcane Archers, and with only moderate build consideration is quite a lot stronger (equipping a single strong Wisdom item somewhere, for instance). Full dedication to these DCs rivals the DCs of full caster classes, and we don't want them to exceed those caster DCs.

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The hob approves!

Those builds with low wis will function the same, will adding the potential more builds. more builds is good!

do we have a timeline? I know you have have said before the end of the year, but thats kinda vague

the one thing i am concerned with is the manyshot changes.

are they coming out at the same time as aa pass? that would make sense, but not sure if it works for this.


thanks for the input guys!

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

We've had a lot of discussions about DC, and we're currently inclined to keep them scaling with Wisdom and Enchantment.

• Yes, we know monks often build a lot of Wisdom (though it may or may not be a primary stat for each build). We don't expect that this particular change is going to be responsible for monkchers being overpowered. We are trying to balance monkchers and there could be further changes relating to them and AA, but we don't think this is the place to do it. (Amongst other things, DPS is probably a bigger consideration and this wouldn't greatly affect that.)

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This is the one that bugs me. I don't particularly see the need for other stats either, so I'm not arguing with you, but I dislike that monkchers get SO much use from their single Wisdom stat, whereas a more intuitively dex based character like a dedicated, pure Arcane Archer is going to be diluting their other stats in favour of Wis or risk being much worse. Essentially, I feel that a pure class AA should have the best DCs (on average I mean, not automatically. i.e. a pure AA should simply not have to try as hard as a multiclass to get effective DCs). But I feel that a multiclass monkcher will win out if both try to build for wis - that said, I am no build expert. My assumption here may prove unfounded. If true however, then it seems somehow wrong to me that a multiclass should more easily obtain better DCs than a pure class.

I think perhaps I would prefer to see ranger level factored in to the DC more.

Could you do 10+enchantment+epic levels+the greater of Ranger Levels OR Wisdom bonus? Or something like that?

How about basing the DC off the number of points spent in the tree in some way (I dunno, 10+enchantment+AP invested in AA/5, no wis involved or something)? So if you want max DCs you're going to want to fill the whole tree if you possibly can, cutting down on options elsewhere? Is that a really bad idea?

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

Doubleshot and Manyshot both create additional real arrows in the world, each making their own separate, constant collision checks as they fly through the air.

It's not ideal. It's also deep in the code and risky to touch.

Additionally, it's not merely the collision checks that cause issues. Adding all of the extra on-hit effects (including damage effects) is not insignificant, and something we try to cut down on when we can. (For instance, in designing new items and abilities, etc.)

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Dear Varg

Thank you for clearing that up. It very clearly shows that adding alot of doubleshot is very bad idea and since that is at the core of the official ideas for changing manyshot and 10k stars it very clearly means that those ideas are not very usefull.

The "staring in the eyes" obvious solution is to simply change 4 arrows (MS) for 1 arrow that does 4 times as much of everything associated with hitting with an arrow. That means normal damage, crits, vorpals, procs, DC effects, imbues etc, etc. I point to post #371 in this thread where I posted the details on how I could see that done though the specifics are much less important than the core idea. So, consider the idea more than the details first.

In short - swap 4 "smaller" arrows for 1 "huge" arrow that does 4 times as much of everything.

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

We've had a lot of discussions about DC, and we're currently inclined to keep them scaling with Wisdom and Enchantment.

• We know there are lore reasons for CHA and INT (or just INT, if you go way back). We're sympathetic to this. There are further ramifications to choosing or allowing INT or CHA that we're currently not looking for (interactions with Harper and Mechanic, for instance.)
• We know Dexterity would probably be the most (easily) powerful. Power does not the same thing as good or interesting builds.
• We know players are mostly not building for max Wisdom right now. That doesn't mean it should be bad to allow it to strengthen an existing ability.
• Yes, we know monks often build a lot of Wisdom (though it may or may not be a primary stat for each build). We don't expect that this particular change is going to be responsible for monkchers being overpowered. We are trying to balance monkchers and there could be further changes relating to them and AA, but we don't think this is the place to do it. (Amongst other things, DPS is probably a bigger consideration and this wouldn't greatly affect that.)

The 20 + Wisdom + Enchantment proposal remains an improvement for nearly all Arcane Archers, and with only moderate build consideration is quite a lot stronger (equipping a single strong Wisdom item somewhere, for instance). Full dedication to these DCs rivals the DCs of full caster classes, and we don't want them to exceed those caster DCs.

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As a monkcher I cannot say I am happy with this. Most likely the DC will still be so low that you only hit 5% of the time on EE - and now everyone will point to monkchers having easier DC as a reason to lower their relative dps. So, I foresee monkchers paying a price for something thats either unwanted, of no real value where it matters or both. So, while I understand your reasoning I dont really see this as a good idea.

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

Doubleshot and Manyshot both create additional real arrows in the world, each making their own separate, constant collision checks as they fly through the air.

It's not ideal. It's also deep in the code and risky to touch.

Additionally, it's not merely the collision checks that cause issues. Adding all of the extra on-hit effects (including damage effects) is not insignificant, and something we try to cut down on when we can. (For instance, in designing new items and abilities, etc.)

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Sev earlier sounded very serious and on a holy mission to reduce lag. Be that by taking away the many from manyshot or reducing the number of players per instance.

I don't see why you decide to NOT go after the source of the problems. doubleshot and manyshot should never had been coded to create multiple arrows if physics checks are not totally insignificant. Probably the coder at that time was thinking "Why add a piece of code into the arrow to make it proc multiple attacks on collision instead of creating multiple arrows on an earlier level and let the existing code do the rest." and saved some developer time. But if 1 or 3 extra arrows are indeed creating a problem with physics checks, that part of the code should be looked into again no matter the developer time. (besides, sev seemed prepared to sacrifice parts of the game to fix lag)

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

This is a dangerous ability in terms of actually making players happy. Veterans don't ignore bonuses like these, they tend to consistently be upset that it's not something they would find more useful. A frequent problem in item design is that we cannot put on "extra" fun or cool or thematic effects onto items without knowing there will be complaints. If you see "Featherfall" on an item and you don't feel like you need Featherfall, there's a good chance you'll be upset that it's not something else you do want -- even if the item designer wasn't considering that any part of the item's real power, but just put it on because they named it, "Roc Lobster" and felt a bird-related power was thematic. This has been proven true time and again across many players.

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I remember these events all too well. Most players just said 'flavor', but the real solution isn't to remove flavor abilities (which many like) - its the communication.

The Dev's need to get ahead and stay ahead on items with flavor abilities. Make sure to tell the Lamannia forums that one or more new items have flavor abilities (and say which items) and most importantly, I can't stress this enough, say that since these are 'flavor' abilities, they aren't counted toward total power of the new item. Just like you just explained, but a) ahead of the release to Lamannia, b) reverse the description so that flavor abilities aren't counted toward total power, and it is either there or not there (no substitution etc).

Keep em coming!

Just remember the old Army saying: tell them what you are about to tell them, tell them, remind them what you told them, ask them to tell you what you told them, then remind them of what you told them. :P :rolleyes::eek::cool:

Thanks Vargouille for respond. I think that we misunderstand in some point.

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

For leveling, the number of arrows already scales with BAB.

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Yes it is. But new Manyshot is MASSIVE NERF for leveling:

Number of Arrows per shoot

Level	6	11	16
Today	2	3	4
After changes	1,24	1,44	1,64

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

We're concerned about monkcher vs. pure ranger vs. racial elf balance. It's a hard problem, and every single solution we've seen so far compromises one way or another. Thanks to everyone who's been giving some suggestions along these lines. Figuring out the right compromises is difficult

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In my suggestion, it's quite balance. Racial Elf is best with Monk, but that cost you 14AP. So can't take all the AA stuff and also can’t have DWS T5 as the option (depend on Arrow Slaying nerf)

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

We're actively trying to smooth out the damage for Archers. We understand many players really do like the burst aspect of Manyshot, and we don't want that to disappear, but making Archers more bursty than they are currently is definitely not the direction we're looking for

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My proposal wasn't add any more bursty. I suggest improvements to NEW Manyshot feat. Thus 4 arrows NOW vs 2,5 (maybe?) arrows +1[w] AFTER. 4 Arrows that produce each on hit effect are more bursty TODAY then 2,5 Arrows with less on hit effect, but with +1[W] each in CHANGED one.

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

This is a dangerous ability in terms of actually making players happy. Veterans don't ignore bonuses like these, they tend to consistently be upset that it's not something they would find more useful. A frequent problem in item design is that we cannot put on "extra" fun or cool or thematic effects onto items without knowing there will be complaints. If you see "Featherfall" on an item and you don't feel like you need Featherfall, there's a good chance you'll be upset that it's not something else you do want -- even if the item designer wasn't considering that any part of the item's real power, but just put it on because they named it, "Roc Lobster" and felt a bird-related power was thematic. This has been proven true time and again across many players

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Sorry Varg, but I can't agree. You design lot's of abilities, that are obsolete or redundant for the sake of flavor or versatility. And yet now you consider that Veterans will be upset. No they will not be upset IF this improvement not be next to great one (like Elemental Arrows). But yes, they will be upset if this will be next to poor one (like AA Capstone). And BTW: why Veteran mood is more important then possibility more fun for New players?

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

New Spells: Maybe someday.

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Just sad :( I suggest existing in game spells. Why just no add them? But yea - let leave empty slot spells for high level Rangers - that's way better move /ironic off

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

I'm not sure what this means. If you mean reducing the number of arrows you get while manyshot is active and getting more while it's not active, that's already true with the current proposal (that reduces number of arrows while active and removes the doubleshot buff). If it's not something like that, I'm not sure I understand. (Adding passive Doubleshot is an idea, but not having -100% adds a lot already...)

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I mean adjust number of Arrows that character can shoot in the 120 second period, that is more like today number of Arrows. This can be scored by (for example) adding Passive Doubleshot ability to Manyshoot. Thus after the active burst damage, for the next 100 second, you get sometimes extra shoots from passive ability.

Right now, with your suggestion with manyshot, the number of arrows shoots in total 120 second period are significantly lower - which you guys try to compensate by Ranger Power. But this will not work for some build that depend on "to-hit" effect.

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Originally Posted by dunklezhan

This is the one that bugs me. I don't particularly see the need for other stats either, so I'm not arguing with you, but I dislike that monkchers get SO much use from their single Wisdom stat, whereas a more intuitively dex based character like a dedicated, pure Arcane Archer is going to be diluting their other stats in favour of Wis or risk being much worse. Essentially, I feel that a pure class AA should have the best DCs (on average I mean, not automatically. i.e. a pure AA should simply not have to try as hard as a multiclass to get effective DCs). But I feel that a multiclass monkcher will win out if both try to build for wis - that said, I am no build expert. My assumption here may prove unfounded. If true however, then it seems somehow wrong to me that a multiclass should more easily obtain better DCs than a pure class.

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The Sun Elf Morninglord, http://ddowiki.com/page/Sun_Elf_%28Morninglord%29

You have to spend AP to get to tier 3 enhancements, then another 4 AP to unlock the Arcane Archer Enhancement Tree. I have never played monk and I have never splashed monk. I would like more WIS offerings added for my pure Sun Elf. Here is a glamor shot:

http://i.imgur.com/9hGcDwt.jpg

I would like more WIS offerings, because I also cast and do build for max. WIS (affects spell points). My favorite spells are Sun Bolt, Sun Beam, and Implosion. It would be great to get to Hit and Dam with WIS. Perhaps it could be restricted to X levels of Sun Elf/Cleric (i.e 18 levels or pure 20 build)?

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

We've had a lot of discussions about DC, and we're currently inclined to keep them scaling with Wisdom and Enchantment.

• We know there are lore reasons for CHA and INT (or just INT, if you go way back). We're sympathetic to this. There are further ramifications to choosing or allowing INT or CHA that we're currently not looking for (interactions with Harper and Mechanic, for instance.)
• We know Dexterity would probably be the most (easily) powerful. Power does not the same thing as good or interesting builds.
• We know players are mostly not building for max Wisdom right now. That doesn't mean it should be bad to allow it to strengthen an existing ability.
• Yes, we know monks often build a lot of Wisdom (though it may or may not be a primary stat for each build). We don't expect that this particular change is going to be responsible for monkchers being overpowered. We are trying to balance monkchers and there could be further changes relating to them and AA, but we don't think this is the place to do it. (Amongst other things, DPS is probably a bigger consideration and this wouldn't greatly affect that.)

The 20 + Wisdom + Enchantment proposal remains an improvement for nearly all Arcane Archers, and with only moderate build consideration is quite a lot stronger (equipping a single strong Wisdom item somewhere, for instance). Full dedication to these DCs rivals the DCs of full caster classes, and we don't want them to exceed those caster DCs.

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what is your expections of a DC that a ranger can reach and what is the mobs dc's for epic levels for the same? ie if a wisdom based ranger maxing at low 40s dc's but monster dc's in 60s then it's not reasonable buff if it still only fails on a 1

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

We've had a lot of discussions about DC, and we're currently inclined to keep them scaling with Wisdom and Enchantment.

• We know there are lore reasons for CHA and INT (or just INT, if you go way back). We're sympathetic to this. There are further ramifications to choosing or allowing INT or CHA that we're currently not looking for (interactions with Harper and Mechanic, for instance.)
• We know Dexterity would probably be the most (easily) powerful. Power does not the same thing as good or interesting builds.
• We know players are mostly not building for max Wisdom right now. That doesn't mean it should be bad to allow it to strengthen an existing ability.
• Yes, we know monks often build a lot of Wisdom (though it may or may not be a primary stat for each build). We don't expect that this particular change is going to be responsible for monkchers being overpowered. We are trying to balance monkchers and there could be further changes relating to them and AA, but we don't think this is the place to do it. (Amongst other things, DPS is probably a bigger consideration and this wouldn't greatly affect that.)

The 20 + Wisdom + Enchantment proposal remains an improvement for nearly all Arcane Archers, and with only moderate build consideration is quite a lot stronger (equipping a single strong Wisdom item somewhere, for instance). Full dedication to these DCs rivals the DCs of full caster classes, and we don't want them to exceed those caster DCs.

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So you are choosing to ignore the fact that the only "Class" that benefits from this change is the Monkcher.:rolleyes:

This is why I uninstalled this game. You developers all have the worst track record for listening to common sense, and I am sick of it. Players have given you MANY GOOD AND VALID REASONS to make it something else but you choose to ignore them, and not just with this.. time and time again it happens. You just don't even care.

This is supposed to be the "Ranger" pass, this is supposed to be making the "Ranger" good. But you are more concerned about multi-class builds then making a proper pass for ranger. It should NOT matter if you break a multi-class build! Guess what. Players WILL MAKE A NEW BUILD USING THE NEW TREES. THAT IS WHAT MAKES DDO FUN! Finding a "Build" that is good. Its what breaths life bank into a stale game, a build being broke and needing to be redone to be competitive again.

"Ranger" pass should be done in a vacuum where you assume NO OTHER CLASS EXISTS. You want to build a thematic class that has unique tools and abilities and is capable of getting through the content of your game. Once that is done, let the "Builders" make the crazy combinations that make it OP. Who cares! This isn't a PvP game.

RIOT does it with LoL - One build is "good" they go around and change the champions making others better
Blizzard does with WoW - Class's and systems get changed all the time to keep the game interesting
so on and so forth.

Why are you guys so against making a change for the BETTER for the "Ranger" class because you are worried its going to break a "Build" that a small portion of the players currently use. Why is this suddenly a thing? Why wasn't it a thing years ago?

Explain why I still cant be a "Batman Build" then? I want to have Full Plate + Improved Evasion + Full BaB Bonus + Amazing Saves + Top Tier AC.. You need to go back in time and reverse the changes you made that broke the "Batman Build" since apparently its now your policy to not break multi-class builds.

I am hitting my breaking point here... DDO has had many opportunities over the past year to make changes for the better but it seems like whoever is in charge has no clue on how to do that and refuses to listen to the community. Its not JUST about ranger at this point. DDO has potential, but its being driven by a bunch of fools.

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Originally Posted by Thar

what is your expections of a DC that a ranger can reach and what is the mobs dc's for epic levels for the same? ie if a wisdom based ranger maxing at low 40s dc's but monster dc's in 60s then it's not reasonable buff if it still only fails on a 1

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Dex based archer can obtain 51 standing DC without sacrificing main stat. I think the goal for Dex based archer is to shoot for ~50 DC.

20 base starting

3 enchantment feats

1 elf DC

18 DC from Wisdom, 16 wisdom base + 4 tome + 3 enhancements (2 from AA tree) + 1 (level up spending) + 2 (fury destiny) + 3 insightful + 12 gear + 1 exceptional + 2 spooky bonus + 2 guild bonus= 46 wisdom

5 enchantment DC from sages cloak or 7 from ring from recent update

4 DC from AA tree

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thar

what is your expections of a DC that a ranger can reach and what is the mobs dc's for epic levels for the same? ie if a wisdom based ranger maxing at low 40s dc's but monster dc's in 60s then it's not reasonable buff if it still only fails on a 1

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Only caster monsters have will saves higher than 60. And most endgame monsters have will saves at the 50s. So, no. They don't only fail on a 1.