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Originally Posted by WarDestroyer

Crazy idea is using https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Mirana_of_the_Flame as a wood elf. Probably 18/2 in this case, the flame vuln is Henshin works with Mirana.

This is a meta TWF paladin build: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...anger-5-Monk-1

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In my experience most people looking for a build are looking to level with it. I could be wrong, but if so that's an important detail to include when detailing your desired specs :) A build around a ML29 raid-only weapon is pretty much limited to more experienced vets, and your leveling will be a bit interesting (like a build around Eidolon). Also then you're stuck with a Wis build, which is really weird with a Paladin IMO? You'd be super MAD.

I feel like calling that meta is a bit of a stretch? Have you seen a single TWF Paladin in-game in the past three months? YMMV of course. I'd expect that build to be strong with a lot of investment (like Gliga1 has) but it really requires gear swaps/lots of experience/good party members to cover some of the weaknesses (such as 50-60 MRR) which IMO leave it as a strong niche but not exactly a meta build.

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Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13

A build around a ML29 raid-only weapon is pretty much limited to more experienced vets, and your leveling will be a bit interesting (like a build around Eidolon)

I feel like calling that meta is a bit of a stretch?

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As I said, it's a crazy idea, but probably a bad one to be sure! And yep, this isn't "meta", rather I meant that one of the best TWF Paladins available is through a 15/5 or 14/5/1 split.

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Originally Posted by Merfyn

Strimtom's video & a couple of discussions were exactly what I was thinking of.

I've tended to use the dual box as extra fire support, including dragging a henchman healer... considering that a pack rat is my spirit animal, not only do I use the 2nd toon to open locks & provide buffs but it also yields double the collectables and chest contents.

If it can supplement my main with firepower it's all for the better.

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So Tiefling Scoundrel was on sale and I picked it up for a 3rd account I created to grab the "all adventure packs" offer, with a mind to try it out in support of the concept I originally asked for here.

To recap, I wanted a dual (now triple) box support bard that won't go into combat unless I'm using it to try recovering from a party wipe or some respawn manages to come after it. It won't be in a backpack; the intent is to use buffs & bard song plus be able to possibly provide trap/lock solutions if the main account(s) don't have rogue or artificer.

This is cribbed shamelessly from magaiti 's 1st-life Support Bard (trapper/warchanter/spellsinger) because I thought he did a fine job and code reuse is the mark of a good programmer.

Comments & suggestions would be appreciated; I think I'm going to make one of these per server. I don't have the wherewithal for anything fancy - no extra enhancement trees, no Warlock, Artificer, Druid, or FvS.

Please be gentle; it's my first time.

Alignment: Neutral or Neutral Good
Race: Tiefling (Scoundrel - Iconic)
Bard 13, Rogue 2

Level Order:
1. Bard 6. Rogue 11. Bard
2. Rogue 7. Bard 12. Bard
3. Bard 8. Bard 13. Bard
4. Bard 9. Bard 14. Bard
5. Bard 10. Bard 15. Bard

Stats 32pt Level Up
---- --------
Strength 8 4: INT
Dexterity 14 8: INT
Constitution 14 12: INT
Intelligence 16
Wisdom 8
Charisma 16

Skills (very sketchy since I made changes due to original plan being human)
B R B B B R B B B B B B B B B
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
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Perform 4 2 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 18
Concent 4 2 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 18
Disable 5 4 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 18
Search 2 3 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 18
Bluff 4 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 18
Diplo 4 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 18
Balance 4 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 18
Hide 4 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 15
UMD 4 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 18
Open Lo 1 3 4
Jump 4 4
Swim 3 3
Tumble 1 1
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Feats
1 : Single Weapon Fighting
3 : Precision
6 : Force of Personality
9 : Improved Single Weapon Fighting
12 : Improved Critical: Slashing (see note below)
15 : Improved Shield Mastery

Enhancements (56 AP)

Warchanter (22 AP)
• Skaldic: Constitution, Weapon Training, Song of Heroism, Fighting Spirit
1. Inspired Bravery III, Poetic Edda III, Rough and Ready III
2. Iced Edges III
3. Ironskin Chant III, Frozen Fury I, Charisma
4. Reckless Chant I

Spellsinger (16 AP)
• Spellsinger, Music of the Sewers, Music of the Dead
1. Studies: Magical III, Lingering Songs I
2. Sharp Note I, Wand and Scroll Mastery III
3. Raucous Refrain I, Spell Song Trance, Charisma

Swashbuckler (12 AP)
• Confidence, Swashbuckling
1. On Your Toes I, Tavern Shanties III
2. Fast Movement, Sword Dance I
3. Smooth Flourishes (charisma to damage)

Tiefling Scoundrel (6 AP)
• Bloodsong, Charisma, Bloodsong, Charisma

Gear is default Tiefling Scoundrel, obviously - magaiti's build presumed use of a Swashbuckler from CC. That would make quite a difference with effective use, but this is intended to be a "shake & bake" extra.

The only other screw-up is that the default Scoundrel weapon is a rapier but I expected to get a slasher of some kind instead. Not sure if that's a bad move.

I'll clean this up after any feedback, particularly point allocation.

EDIT UGH, Formatting removed spaces...

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Originally Posted by Merfyn

To recap, I wanted a dual (now triple) box support bard that won't go into combat unless I'm using it to try recovering from a party wipe or some respawn manages to come after it. It won't be in a backpack; the intent is to use buffs & bard song plus be able to possibly provide trap/lock solutions if the main account(s) don't have rogue or artificer.

Class: Bard 13, Rogue 2
Stats: 8/14/14/16/8/16

Feats:
1 : Single Weapon Fighting
3 : Precision
6 : Force of Personality
9 : Improved Single Weapon Fighting
12 : Improved Critical: Slashing (see note below)
15 : Improved Shield Mastery

Warchanter (22 AP)
4. Reckless Chant I

Spellsinger (16 AP)

Swashbuckler (12 AP)
3. Smooth Flourishes (charisma to damage)

Tiefling Scoundrel (6 AP)

Gear is default Tiefling Scoundrel, obviously - magaiti's build presumed use of a Swashbuckler from CC. That would make quite a difference with effective use, but this is intended to be a "shake & bake" extra. The only other screw-up is that the default Scoundrel weapon is a rapier but I expected to get a slasher of some kind instead. Not sure if that's a bad move.

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I'd definitely recommend Spellsinger T4 Sustaining Song. It'll provide a HoT effect (heals every ~9 seconds) that works across the dungeon (as long as your songs last) which is invaluable for a buffer IMO. Warchanter Core 4 is often stronger when you're actively playing the Bard, but it's an Aria buff and thus limited by proximity (which won't help if this toon is parked at the entrance).

As an Int-based trapper with Evasion I'd highly recommend Insightful Reflexes; you probably won't have very good Dex, so it'll be a sizable buff to your Reflex saves which is great for trappers. You could even just use Two Steps Ahead instead of Smooth Flourishes and run Int-max entirely, using 3 AP into Harper for Int-to-Hit (taken from racial probs). Depends a lot on if your Frozen Fury is landing, but with your build already focusing on Int, as a first life, and without a trance I wouldn't be super hopeful of that anyway? Roll up a test toon and see how it does before committing IMO. If you can free up some AP and afford KTA (8 AP total) you might come out comparable or even ahead on Frozen Fury DC's as well, which is an interesting prospect.

Otherwise as you level I'd consider Cleric 1+ for Divine Might as a Cha-trance. Bard 13 gives GH though, so that's up to you as to which is more valuable.

If you have access to VKF, it might be worth running daggers - for 3 AP you can get +20% Doublestrike, which is pretty rad especially in Heroics - it's nearly a 20% DPS boost. Would also use IC:Piercing which makes setting up a bit easier? Otherwise if you happen to have a bunch of Tome pages sitting around, Razorend looks solid - or like a Sharn beater of any sort.

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Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13

I'd definitely recommend Spellsinger T4 Sustaining Song. It'll provide a HoT effect (heals every ~9 seconds) that works across the dungeon (as long as your songs last) which is invaluable for a buffer IMO. Warchanter Core 4 is often stronger when you're actively playing the Bard, but it's an Aria buff and thus limited by proximity (which won't help if this toon is parked at the entrance).

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I doubt I'm going to "park" this at the entrance but I don't know the ranges well enough (I thought that it was time duration) so I'd probably hit "R" and then go back to the main toon. The only time I was thinking this one would ever lead was when I wanted to charm or fascinate. Dropping both Frozen Fury & Iced Edges gives me 4 points into Spellsinger so I'll play with that this weekend.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13

Depends a lot on if your Frozen Fury is landing, but with your build already focusing on Int, as a first life, and without a trance I wouldn't be super hopeful of that anyway? Roll up a test toon and see how it does before committing IMO. If you can free up some AP and afford KTA (8 AP total) you might come out comparable or even ahead on Frozen Fury DC's as well, which is an interesting prospect.

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That's what I was a bit torn by: I'm assuming that higher Charisma means better bard capability, but I've found that just squeaking by with 2 Rogue hasn't been sufficient for some traps, and I don't know what sort of balance this will yield. I followed the pattern of "level up = Int, enhancement = Cha" but don't have a good feeling for the sweet spot between them.

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Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13

Otherwise as you level I'd consider Cleric 1+ for Divine Might as a Cha-trance. Bard 13 gives GH though, so that's up to you as to which is more valuable.

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Not sure what you mean about Cleric? I like Greater Hero though...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13

If you have access to VKF, it might be worth running daggers - for 3 AP you can get +20% Doublestrike, which is pretty rad especially in Heroics - it's nearly a 20% DPS boost. Would also use IC:Piercing which makes setting up a bit easier? Otherwise if you happen to have a bunch of Tome pages sitting around, Razorend looks solid - or like a Sharn beater of any sort.

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None of the above, sadly. This account was nearly bare, which is why I was trying to figure out how to get some use out of it. Doesn't even have Ravenloft, much less Sharn; only ToEE.

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Originally Posted by Merfyn

Strength 8 4: INTDexterity 14 8: INT
Constitution 14 12: INT
Intelligence 16
Wisdom 8
Charisma 16

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So I feel like your CHA is either too high or too low. Too high if you're just using bard spells for buffage (since Scoundrel starts with +7 CHA gear); too low if you're planning to use bard spells offensively.

Also magaiti's build is INT-based because it has Harper for INT to-hit and Know the Angles, but you said you don't have that tree on this alt account. So you're already at a disadvantage. However you also don't have Feydark Illusionist and this isn't a PDK, so no easy CHA to-hit option either.

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Feats
1 : Single Weapon Fighting
3 : Precision
6 : Force of Personality
9 : Improved Single Weapon Fighting
12 : Improved Critical: Slashing (see note below)
15 : Improved Shield Mastery

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You can't take Improved Shield Mastery without Shield Mastery which you could take instead of FoP. Although I always presumed GSWF is the bigger DPS buff and should be taken first.

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The only other screw-up is that the default Scoundrel weapon is a rapier but I expected to get a slasher of some kind instead.

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What "slasher" are you intending to use? If if it's a sickle, you would also want Swords to Plowshares for +1 crit range (stacks with Swashbuckling) but that constrains your feats further.

Another issue for this build is Scoundrel doesn't start with any trapper gear so you're going to need to farm that first before it's useful in that role.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Merfyn

I doubt I'm going to "park" this at the entrance but I don't know the ranges well enough (I thought that it was time duration) so I'd probably hit "R" and then go back to the main toon. The only time I was thinking this one would ever lead was when I wanted to charm or fascinate. Dropping both Frozen Fury & Iced Edges gives me 4 points into Spellsinger so I'll play with that this weekend.

That's what I was a bit torn by: I'm assuming that higher Charisma means better bard capability, but I've found that just squeaking by with 2 Rogue hasn't been sufficient for some traps, and I don't know what sort of balance this will yield. I followed the pattern of "level up = Int, enhancement = Cha" but don't have a good feeling for the sweet spot between them.
Not sure what you mean about Cleric? I like Greater Hero though...
None of the above, sadly. This account was nearly bare, which is why I was trying to figure out how to get some use out of it. Doesn't even have Ravenloft, much less Sharn; only ToEE.

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There's two parts to Bard song buffs. One is Inspire Courage, an active song you sing to a person that (at Bard 13) will last for like 20 minutes or so given you'll be taking +duration in T1 of Spellsinger; a lot of Bard song buffs are rolled into this (like Inspire Competence giving +4 to skills). The other part of Bards is their Bardic Ballad (also called Aria in-game), an AoE (roughly double standard aura range - think Aura Warlock but bigger) buff that refreshes every ~10 seconds giving buffs that generally last 1 minute.

Sustaining Song (Spellsinger T4) adds a HoT to your Inspire Courage, so if you throw a song at someone they'll get healed every ~10s for the next ~20 minutes which is pretty great for being split up etc. It's not a monster heal, but it scales with spellpower (and healamp) so it's pretty great especially across long quests. Also for mario quests where you don't want to bring your alt along lol.

Inspire Greatness (Bard 9 autogrant) adds a temp HP shield to your Ballad. Every ~10s it refreshes a 20 temp HP buffer on all allies nearby. If you take Warchanter Core 4 (Fighting Spirit) it'll instead grant [CHA] temp HP, doubled in epics. At level 15 it's not mandatory to grab the C4, but in epics it's pretty impactful - so if you plan on parking a Bard buffer at 30 you generally Cha-max to optimize this ability further. My raid Bard spreads around 200 Temp HP with this enhancement.

Aside from Fighting Spirit, your Cha isn't doing a lot. You won't need spell points and probably won't have DC's anyway, so it's mostly social skills. That's a big part of why I would consider Int-maxing, just to make your gearing/leveling easier. Int is good for trapping, and powers your Reflex saves for Evasion (via Insightful Reflexes). Especially since you're already struggling some, being able to all-out on Int seems pretty helpful.

Cleric is a class? One of the enhancement trees, Warpriest, has Divine Might as a T1 enhancement that gives you access to a Cha-based trance. If you want viable Freezing Ice DC's you'll almost certainly need a trance + a bit of Cha investment. I don't think it's worth it for your circumstances, especially since you've already dropped Frozen Fury? But if you want to try for DC's it's what I'd recommend.

[QUOTE=unbongwah;6446728]So I feel like your CHA is either too high or too low. Too high if you're just using bard spells for buffage (since Scoundrel starts with +7 CHA gear); too low if you're planning to use bard spells offensively.

Also magaiti's build is INT-based because it has Harper for INT to-hit and Know the Angles, but you said you don't have that tree on this alt account. So you're already at a disadvantage. However you also don't have Feydark Illusionist and this isn't a PDK, so no easy CHA to-hit option either.[/quote

I'm with Unbongwah here w/r/t Cha. Mostly all I can see it helping you with is Frozen Fury DC's and Fighting Spirit, but I'm not sure it's better than just going Int-based for trapping and KtA. Also you could then save a bunch of points in Warchanter maybe? Spellsinger T5 for Spellsong Vigor is popular with any blue-bar toon in DDO, if you can get there.

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Another issue for this build is Scoundrel doesn't start with any trapper gear so you're going to need to farm that first before it's useful in that role.

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I wonder if it's worth running as a SDK? Not sure if that's available for the OP, but if so starting with trapper gear might be worth the inconvenience. Only if you're going Int-max, but that seems like a fairly reasonable line given what I've seen so far.

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Originally Posted by unbongwah

So I feel like your CHA is either too high or too low. Too high if you're just using bard spells for buffage (since Scoundrel starts with +7 CHA gear); too low if you're planning to use bard spells offensively.

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Indeed; that's why I want advice. I'm neither experienced enough with the game mechanics nor able to spend lots of time grind/testing whether 28 Cha is enough.
I *AM* hoping to use charm-type spells but don't know how effective they'll be. What I've found enjoyable is to cast a charm on a fighter in a pack of cigarette smoking monsters, and the ones that don't start whupping on their buddy generally run straight into my main character + hirelings.
That's why I was putting points into Spellcraft (which in hindsight I didn't record properly either). At the same time I don't know if 19 Int is enough Intelligence to reliably disarm on Heroic Elite, even if using some Auction House bonus gear and picks with bonuses.

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Originally Posted by unbongwah

You can't take Improved Shield Mastery without Shield Mastery which you could take instead of FoP.

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Sorry, another misprint. I think it should have been Offhand Versatility.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by unbongwah

If if it's a sickle, you would also want Swords to Plowshares for +1 crit range (stacks with Swashbuckling) but that constrains your feats further.

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Having 2nd thoughts about this, as mentioned; I'd need to farm or swap what I use from the other two accounts, which defeats the purpose of this being a "shake & bake" supporter.

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Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13

Aside from Fighting Spirit, your Cha isn't doing a lot. You won't need spell points and probably won't have DC's anyway, so it's mostly social skills. That's a big part of why I would consider Int-maxing, just to make your gearing/leveling easier. Int is good for trapping, and powers your Reflex saves for Evasion (via Insightful Reflexes). Especially since you're already struggling some, being able to all-out on Int seems pretty helpful.

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Thanks; that explains a lot - it seems likely that I should go T4 in Spellsinger instead. Again, these are intended for almost throwaway characters on the third account so I won't be deliberately leveling them.

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Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13

Cleric is a class? One of the enhancement trees, Warpriest, has Divine Might as a T1 enhancement that gives you access to a Cha-based trance.

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Gotcha. No, given that I'm already scraping a bit to get the most party buffs, having a personal buff of Divine Might isn't worth the investment (unless I misunderstood).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13

I'm with Unbongwah here w/r/t Cha. Mostly all I can see it helping you with is Frozen Fury DC's and Fighting Spirit, but I'm not sure it's better than just going Int-based for trapping and KtA. Also you could then save a bunch of points in Warchanter maybe? Spellsinger T5 for Spellsong Vigor is popular with any blue-bar toon in DDO, if you can get there.

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As I said to him, I'm doubtless misunderstanding the mechanics of Cha, because I thought I needed higher value to improve DC's for those occasions I try to use songs (or spells) as an "attack".

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Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13

I wonder if it's worth running as a SDK? Not sure if that's available for the OP, but if so starting with trapper gear might be worth the inconvenience. Only if you're going Int-max, but that seems like a fairly reasonable line given what I've seen so far.

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Yep, that's what I had originally been considering in the *original* OP, but when I had the opportunity to buy Tiefling on sale I wanted to explore this option. Like I said, though, the account I'd play this on has literally nothing but the all-module pack.

Have you considered going with a caster build instead? Bard Sonic spells got buffed in U48.4; the Shout and Horn of Thunder SLAs are particularly strong when fully meta'ed. Plus you'd have all bonuses to your Inspiration from Spellsinger; Sustaining Song + Spell Song Vigor are really nice. That helps narrow the focus of this toon.

This is loosely based on my experiences with this build:

Code:

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Scoundrel Spellsinger (dual-box)
14/1 Bard/Rogue
Tiefling Scoundrel




Level Order


1. Bard            6. Bard          11. Bard
2. Rogue          7. Bard          12. Bard
3. Bard            8. Bard          13. Bard
4. Bard            9. Bard          14. Bard
5. Bard          10. Bard          15. Bard




Stats
              32pt    Level Up
              ----    --------
Strength        8      4: CHA
Dexterity        8      8: CHA
Constitution    14      12: CHA
Intelligence    16
Wisdom          8
Charisma        20




Skills
          B  R  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B
          1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15
        ---------------------------------------------
Perform  4    2  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  18
Concent  4        3  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  18
Spellcr  4    1    2  2    2    2    2    2  1  18
Disable      5  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  18
Search    2  3  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  18
UMD      4    2  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  18
Open Lo      3              1    1    1    1        7
Swim      4                                        1  5
Balance  4                                            4
Jump      4                                            4
Tumble    4                                            4
        ---------------------------------------------
        36 11  9  9  9  9  9  9  9  9  9  9  9  9  9




Feats


 1        : Maximize Spell
 3        : Empower Spell
 6        : Quicken Spell
 9        : Heighten Spell
12        : Empower Healing Spell OR Extend Spell
15        : Improved Bardic Music OR Force of Personality




Spells

1. Focusing Chant (1), Grease (3), Sonic Blast (4), <Any>
2. Blur (5), Hold Person (5), Rage (6), Soundburst (8)
3. Haste (8), Displacement (8), Good Hope (9), Charm Monster (11)
4. Cure Critical Wounds (11), Dimension Door (11), Otto's Sphere of Dancing (12), Shout (14)
5. Shadow Walk (14), Greater Heroism (14), Mind Fog (15)

Enhancements (Spent: 60+0r +0u / Max: 60+0r +0u AP)


Spellsinger (37 AP)

• Spellsinger, Music of the Sewers, Music of the Dead, Music of the Makers
  
  1. Magical III, Sonic Blast III
  2. Reverberate III, Marigold Crown: Violet
  3. Raucous Refrain I, Shout III, Spell Song Trance
  4. Sustaining Song, Arcane Aid III, Frolic, Song of Arcane Might
  5. Advanced Musical Studies, Spell Song Vigor, SLA: Horn of Thunder III

Swashbuckler (12 AP)

• Confidence, Swashbuckling, Uncanny Dodge
  
  1. On Your Toes I, Tavern Shanties III
  2. Deflect Arrows, Fast Movement
  3. Skirmisher

Warchanter (11 AP)

• Skaldic: Constitution, Weapon Training, Song of Heroism
  
  1. Inspired Bravery III, Enchant Weapon
  2. Boast III

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Since we're not actually meleeing, Swashbuckler is for Fast Movement and defensive perks (Deflect Arrows, Uncanny Dodge). Your starter buckler is also your Fortification item, so I thought, "why not boost your defenses with Skirmisher as well?" Though it may be overkill.

Stats with starter gear would be:

• STR: base 8 + 6 item = 14
• DEX: base 8 + 6 item = 14
• CON: base 14 + 1 Skaldic CON + 7 item = 22
• INT: base 16 (buff with Fox's Cunning wands until you find an INT item)
• WIS: base 8
• CHA: base 20 + 3 level-ups + 7 item = 30

Scoundrel starts with Sonic spellpower, though you would want to add Spell Focus / Lore / etc. gear ASAP. IIRC last year's free quest code granted Cannith Challenges, so the ML:15 Blasting Chime would be a relatively easy upgrade.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by unbongwah

Have you considered going with a caster build instead? Bard Sonic spells got buffed in U48.4; the Shout and Horn of Thunder SLAs are particularly strong when fully meta'ed. Plus you'd have all bonuses to your Inspiration from Spellsinger; Sustaining Song + Spell Song Vigor are really nice. That helps narrow the focus of this toon.

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Indeed I had, and thanks for the spec (where is the formatting from? I made a royal mess when I tried copying one earlier)

I had mentioned far earlier in the thread interest in seeing if I could use the sonic sort of build, but how does it fare with both party support & disable? I didn't think it would be as effective at support, which is what this toon is intended for... I have too many ~11 level toons that need leveling, & few of them are Rogue, Arty, or splash.

PS I think I'll try copying what you just posted for the weekend; even the f2p account has enough slots for a spare.

PPS I came up short on your enhancements; you show 60 but I only have 56 points

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Merfyn

(where is the formatting from? I made a royal mess when I tried copying one earlier)

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Use the Code Tags Format export option in Character Builder Lite. Or just manually add the code BB codes to your post. The code embeds use a fixed-width font instead of proportional, so it's much easier to read IMO.

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I had mentioned far earlier in the thread interest in seeing if I could use the sonic sort of build, but how does it fare with both party support & disable?

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It should be fine. You're a bard so you already have the major skill buffs like Focusing Chant, Inspire Competence, Greater Heroism, etc. Putting a few extra points into INT won't make you a better trapper. Farming better gear will make you a better trapper.

Hello all. I'm a returning player, though I've always been a turbo casual, so I'm looking for feedback on this build. I play exclusively solo, so trapping and self-sufficiency are very important to me. I also have zero past lives and no gear outside of some basic trapper gear at various levels funneled from my old primary character. I did some research and I hope I did an okay job putting it all together. I'm currently level 6 on a pure artificer, but I have my reincarnation thing to let me redo from level 1 to fix any mistakes.

Concerns: I think my enhancement choices are suspect, I'm not sure of my class leveling order, and I'm not sure on the order or quality of my feat choices.

Thanks in advance for any insight offered.

Code:

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Magewright
16/2/2 Artificer/Fighter/Rogue
True Neutral Warforged




Level Order


1. Rogue . . . . . 6. Artificer . . .11. Artificer . . .16. Fighter
2. Artificer. . . .7. Artificer. . . 12. Fighter . . . .17. Artificer
3. Artificer. . . .8. Artificer. . . 13. Artificer. . . 18. Artificer
4. Artificer. . . .9. Rogue . . . . .14. Artificer . . .19. Artificer
5. Artificer. . . 10. Artificer. . . 15. Artificer. . . 20. Artificer




Stats
. . . . . . . .28pt . . Tome . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .---- . . ----. . .--------
Strength. . . . .8. . . . . . . . 4: INT
Dexterity . . . 14. . . .+7. . . .8: INT
Constitution. . 16. . . . . . . .12: INT
Intelligence. . 18. . . .+7. . . 16: INT
Wisdom. . . . . .6. . . . . . . .20: INT
Charisma. . . . .6. . . . . . . .




Skills
. . . . . R .A .A .A .A .A .A .A .R. A. A. F .A .A .A .F. A. A. A. A
. . . . . 1 .2 .3 .4 .5 .6 .7 .8 .9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
Repair. . 4 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1. 1. 1. 1 .1 .1 .1 .1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Spellcr . 2 .1 .1 .2 .1 .1 .2 .1 . . 1. 1. . .1 .1 .1 .1. 1. 3. 1. 1. 23
Disable . 4 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1. 1. 1. 1 .1 .1 .1 .1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Open Lo . 4 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1. 1. 1. . .1 .1 .1 . . 1. . .4 .1 .23
Search. . 4 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1. 1. 1. 1 .1 .1 .1 . . 1. 2. 1. 1. 23
Spot. . . 4 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1. 1. 1. ½ .1 .1 .1 .1½ 1 .1 .1 .1 .23
Balance . 4 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1. 1. 1. 1 .1 .1 .1 . . 1½ 1 .½ .2 .23
Jump. . . 4 . . . . . . . . . .1 .7. 1. 1. . .1 .1½ 1½ 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
UMD . . . 4 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1. 1. 1. 1 .1 .1 .1 .1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Concent . 2 . . . . . 1. 1. . . . . . . . . . 1. . . . . .1 . . . .1 . 7
Haggle. . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .5
Swim. . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .4
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . .48 .9 .9 10 10 10 10 11 15 11 11 10 12 12 12 11 13 13 13 14




Feats


.1. . . . : Point Blank Shot
.3. . . . : Rapid Shot
.5 Arti . : Precise Shot
.6. . . . : Precision
.9. . . . : Insightful Reflexes
10 Arti . : Quicken Spell
12. . . . : Maximize Spell
12 Fighter: Improved Critical: Ranged
15. . . . : Spell Focus: Evocation
15 Arti . : Improved Precise Shot
16 Fighter: Weapon Focus: Ranged
18. . . . : Greater Spell Focus: Evocation
20 Arti . : Empower Spell




Spells

1. Conjure Bolts (2), Resist Energy (2), Ablative Armor (3), <Any>
2. Byeshk Weapons (4), Protection from Energy (5), <Any>, <Any>
3. Insightful Damage (7), Adamantine Weapons (8), Stoneskin (14), <Any>
4. Cold Iron Weapons (11), Armor of Speed (13), <Any>
5. Align Weapons (15), Silver Weapons (17)
6. Reconstruct (19), Tactical Detonation (20)

Enhancements


Inquisitive (41 AP)

• Inquisitive, Hit the Streets, Mind Like Iron, True Seeing, Undaunted, Master Inquisitive
  
  1. Dual Shooter, Eye for Accuracy III, Law on your Side
  2. Crossbow Adept, Observation, Improved Law
  3. Crossbow Adept, What First?: Ask Questions First, Improved Observation, Intelligence
  4. Crossbow Adept, What Later?: Shoot Later, Inquisition Style: Martial Inquisition, Greater Law, Intelligence
  5. No Holds Barred, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Inquisitor's Path: Optimistic, Diplomatic Immunity

Mechanic (11 AP)

• Arbalester
  
  1. Sharpshooter, Mechanics III
  2. Sharpshooter, Wand and Scroll Mastery III

Kensei (11 AP)

• Kensei Focus: Crossbows
  
  1. Extra Action Boost III, Weapon Group Specialization: Crossbows
  2. Weapon Group Specialization: Crossbows

Harper Agent (8 AP)

• Agent of Good I
  
  1. Harper Enchantment, Strategic Combat
  2. Know the Angles III

Warforged (7 AP)

• Improved Fortification
  
  1. Construct Thinking III, Mechanist III

Renegade Mastermaker (2 AP)

• Renegade Defender
  
  1. Easily Fixed

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HorusHorace

Code:

---

Stats
. . . . . . . .28pt . . Tome . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .---- . . ----. . .--------
Strength. . . . .8. . . . . . . . 4: INT
Dexterity . . . 14. . . .+7. . . .8: INT
Constitution. . 16. . . . . . . .12: INT
Intelligence. . 18. . . .+7. . . 16: INT
Wisdom. . . . . .6. . . . . . . .20: INT
Charisma. . . . .6. . . . . . . .

---

---

So you have two +7 tomes listed, which I'm inferring you plan to buy. I should point out that unlocking 32-pt characters is 1,495 points (less than the 1,845 DP price of a +7 tome). Also SSG reduced the DEX requirement on Combat Archery from 21 to 17, so the highest DEX pre-req on this build is 19 for Improved Precise Shot. Thus you could unlock 32-pt builds, start at DEX 16, and buy a +3 DEX tome (945 DP). The total cost is higher (2,440 DPs) but 32-pt builds is an account-wide unlock which benefits all of your first-lifers (except drow), whereas tome purchases are single-character-only.

Of course, this is presuming you don't want to wait to see if anything goes on sale this month. We're now on Week 2 of the Summer Sails so there's still time to see if tomes or 32-pt builds go on sale.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by unbongwah

So you have two +7 tomes listed, which I'm inferring you plan to buy. I should point out that unlocking 32-pt characters is 1,495 points (less than the 1,845 DP price of a +7 tome). Also SSG reduced the DEX requirement on Combat Archery from 21 to 17, so the highest DEX pre-req on this build is 19 for Improved Precise Shot. Thus you could unlock 32-pt builds, start at DEX 16, and buy a +3 DEX tome (945 DP). The total cost is higher (2,440 DPs) but 32-pt builds is an account-wide unlock which benefits all of your first-lifers (except drow), whereas tome purchases are single-character-only.

Of course, this is presuming you don't want to wait to see if anything goes on sale this month. We're now on Week 2 of the Summer Sails so there's still time to see if tomes or 32-pt builds go on sale.

---

Actually, I impulsively bought the tomes already, but that would've been a smarter choice. Oh well. I plan on reincarnating and doing Heroics primarily since Epics are what burned me out last time and focusing on this character, so I'll have a 34/36 build point buy at some point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HorusHorace

Hello all. I'm a returning player, though I've always been a turbo casual, so I'm looking for feedback on this build.

---

I'm surprised your not taking Strategic Combat II. It's one of the ways you can get a stat damage bonus for crossbows and thus, quite valuable for you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sigtrent

I'm surprised your not taking Strategic Combat II. It's one of the ways you can get a stat damage bonus for crossbows and thus, quite valuable for you.

---

It's an Artificer so it will have Insightful Damage spell. That saves a few APs from Harper for other things.

P.S. Are you coming back to the forums or just stopping by for a visit? :)

Here's my second draft, along with some questions and theorycraft after the planner dump. Keep in mind that the only other character I have is a an old school level 20 Tempest Trapmonkey from several years back, so my overall game experience is pretty low.

Code:

---

Magewright
16/2/2 Artificer/Fighter/Rogue
True Neutral Warforged




Level Order


1. Rogue . . . . . 6. Artificer . . .11. Artificer . . .16. Fighter
2. Artificer. . . .7. Artificer. . . 12. Fighter . . . .17. Artificer
3. Artificer. . . .8. Rogue . . . . .13. Artificer . . .18. Artificer
4. Artificer. . . .9. Artificer. . . 14. Artificer. . . 19. Artificer
5. Artificer. . . 10. Artificer. . . 15. Artificer. . . 20. Artificer




Stats
. . . . . . . .28pt . . 32pt. . .34pt . . 36pt. . .Tome. . .Level Up
. . . . . . . .---- . . ----. . .---- . . ----. . .---- . . --------
Strength. . . . .8. . . . 8 . . . .8. . . . 8 . . . . . . . .4: INT
Dexterity . . . 14. . . .14 . . . 14. . . .14 . . . +7 . . . 8: INT
Constitution. . 16. . . .18 . . . 18. . . .18 . . . . . . . 12: INT
Intelligence. . 18. . . .18 . . . 18. . . .18 . . . +7 . . .16: INT
Wisdom. . . . . .6. . . . 6 . . . .8. . . .10 . . . . . . . 20: INT
Charisma. . . . .6. . . . 6 . . . .6. . . . 6 . . . . . . .




Feats


.1. . . . : Point Blank Shot
.3. . . . : Rapid Shot
.5 Arti . : Precise Shot
.6. . . . : Mithral Body
.9. . . . : Precision
10 Arti . : Quicken Spell
12. . . . : Insightful Reflexes
12 Fighter: Improved Critical: Ranged
15. . . . : Spell Focus: Evocation
15 Arti . : Improved Precise Shot
16 Fighter: Weapon Focus: Ranged
18. . . . : Greater Spell Focus: Evocation
20 Arti . : Extend Spell




Enhancements (Spent: 80+0r +0u / Max: 80+0r +0u AP)


Inquisitive (41 AP)

• Inquisitive, Hit the Streets, Mind Like Iron, True Seeing, Undaunted, Master Inquisitive
  
  1. Dual Shooter, Law on your Side
  2. Crossbow Adept, Wand and Scroll Mastery III, Observation, Improved Law
  3. Crossbow Adept, What First?: Ask Questions First, Improved Observation, Intelligence
  4. Crossbow Adept, What Later?: Shoot Later, Inquisition Style: Martial Inquisition, Greater Law, Intelligence
  5. No Holds Barred, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Inquisitor's Path: Jaded, Diplomatic Immunity

Battle Engineer (16 AP)

• Battle Engineer, Infused Weapons, Infused Armor
  
  1. Crossbow Training, Field Engineer II
  2. Crossbow Training, Caustic Shot I, Extra Action Boost III

Kensei (11 AP)

• Kensei Focus: Crossbows
  
  1. Extra Action Boost III, Weapon Group Specialization: Crossbows
  2. Weapon Group Specialization: Crossbows

Harper Agent (8 AP)

• Agent of Good I
  
  1. Harper Enchantment, Strategic Combat
  2. Know the Angles III

Warforged (4 AP)

• Improved Fortification
  
  1. Mechanist III

---

My primary build goal is solo survivability and sustainability considering I'm still learning the build and don't have any gear. In future TRs I would then shift over to favoring DPS for clear speed.

I have concerns about the order of feats. I feel like Mithral Body at 6 for AC and PRR and Insightful Reflexes at 12 for better Evasion are good choices, but I'm not sure about the order of ranged feats after PBS. Also, are Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus: Evocation/Extend Spell a better choice than Dodge/Mobility/Shot on the Run? I heard that SotR is bugged and doesn't remove the to hit penalty and only applies the Ranged Power, so raising the DC of Tactical Detonation and making Tenser's Transformation less tedious seems better than some Dodge and a little RP. Is it just personal preference at that point? I think a more survivable playstyle is better for a first life character with no gear.

Speaking of Tenser's Transformation, is it worth it? I read that the increased BAB gives a lot of ranged attack speed. I don't mind buffing up every 3 minutes or so since I'm already using Know the Angles and it's part of the fun for me as a caster.

Which is the best Inquisitor's Path for all around solo play? Jaded is what I've seen others use, but is it better for my build goals? Also, I switched Mechanic out for Battle Engineer for Extra Action Boost because No Holds Barred sounds really strong.

IMO if you're already going Artificer 16 for level 6 spells, you might as well stick with pure Artificer. Evasion ain't what it used to be and Adamantine Body + RMM bonuses provide better survivability than Mithral Body. Plus for heroic leveling, I'd rather get higher-level Artificer spells ASAP than delay them for rogue and fighter splashes.

You don't play Artificer for pure ranged DPS; there's better classes for that. You pick Artificer because it's a well-rounded hybrid with DPS, crowd-control (Sphere, TacDet), and self-buffs/survivability.

(Cross-post w/ Unbongwah - His arguments that "You don't go Arti to go pure ranged DPS" are strong. However, the "best" alternatives require other Premium classes - Monk, or Favored Soul for example.

However, I'm not sure I can fully agree with his dismissal of Evasion - especially on a 1st-life build that doesn't have Past Lives and MRR yet, it's a great survival tool.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HorusHorace

My primary build goal is solo survivability and sustainability considering I'm still learning the build and don't have any gear. In future TRs I would then shift over to favoring DPS for clear speed.

---

WF Arti should be able to achieve both np. Also, remember that, in a very real sense, DPS is survivability - kill them before they can touch you, done.

But what are you trying to achieve with this build? Heroic Reincarnation at 20, or go to 30, or park at one of those, or what? Diff goals will determine the vaule/importance of diff build decisions! For example, if only going to 20, your Level 20 Feat will only be enjoyed for a brief time, but if farming and/or going to 30 it will have a much bigger impact, etc.


~4 general comments/suggestions, which I'll try to tie in to your own post above...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HorusHorace

...are Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus: Evocation/Extend Spell a better choice than Dodge/Mobility/Shot on the Run?

---

Arguably (and depending on the exact build!), no.

1) Q: Is this a Ranged or Caster build? Decide which you are, and ignore Feats for the other. Very few builds can do both well, so might as well focus on one OR the other. Buffs don't rely on DC's, but combat/DPS does, and if your targets are saving for 1/2 damage (or for "nothing" with Evasion!), you're FAR better off sticking with your crossbow. (Hint: If you're already losing 4 Caster Levels to multi-classing, that only makes Evocation DC's worse!)

Or, here's another way to look at it: if you can kill a target with only one of A or B (and A/B have no overlap in power), why would you choose to pass on strengthening your best attack in favor of increasing your weaker attack? Why not be the best you can be in one OR the other? And when would you ever choose your lower DPS attack? :confused:

(Now, the counter-arguments are that "some CC is better than none" - and that's also true. But even with pure Arti and the +Evoc feats, I'm not sure a 1st-life can get anywhere close to no-fail DC's.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HorusHorace

... I heard that SotR is bugged and doesn't remove the to hit penalty and only applies the Ranged Power...

---

Not technically correct, but the result is the same.

With the current game mechanics, any decent build* will only miss on a "1", even when running. So, no, it's not bugged, but yes, the "to hit" bonus doesn't help (because you don't need the help!). Still, SotR is often the best Feat you can take late, as "a little more power" is never a bad thing. :cool:

(* i.e. anything with primary stat To Hit, and a decent focus on improving that stat)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HorusHorace

I have concerns about the order of feats. but I'm not sure about the order of ranged feats after PBS.

---

Yeah, you always want to weigh "what you gain" vs. "what you could gain w/ something else"! And that in context of "Do I really need it yet?"

For instance...

Precision removes 25% of a targets Fort*, and few targets have very high Fort in low Heroics. So... that can wait imo!

(* It's not a flat "-25%" reduction!)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HorusHorace

I feel like Mithral Body at 6 for AC and PRR and Insightful Reflexes at 12 for better Evasion are good choices,

---

MB is nice, as it mimics "chain mail", but PRR for armor gets better with BAB, so understand what the increase is for. (At Level 6 it's only ~+4 PRR.)
o https://ddowiki.com/page/Physical_Re...e_Rating#Items

IR is also nice, but certainly better once you actually HAVE Evasion! And that can be a literal life-saver, esp once you have Insightful Reflexes. So...

2) Rogue 2 for Evasion asap. I'd go R2 a bit earlier, as Evasion becomes useful as early as the Lightning Bolts in Harbor 2's. You don't have the AP to get the Arti 4 Enhancements that soon, and Arti spells are not really a gamechanger for a ranged build.


Beyond those comments...

3) Fighter 1 early. The Kensai Tier 1 +8 to hit/+8 damage boost on a Repeater is massive at early levels, a real crusher.

Also, Rogue has more Skill Points than Arti, and only loses a little on Concentration, so I'd go Rogue 1st, then Arti. (You can make it to Level 2 without your dog or a repeater. :cool:)


Lastly...

4) Consider pushing to Fighter 4? Fighter 4 opens 2 nice Feats (and gives you one of them "for free"). If thinking about an 18-level build (for fast RR/TR*), you're only getting to Arti 14 anyway (Arti 14 + 2 + 2), and Arti 14 doesn't give you anything that you don't already have from Arti 12.

o https://ddowiki.com/page/Weapon_Specialization
o https://ddowiki.com/page/Tactical_Training

Fighter 4 also gives you more flexibility to drop a level of Fighter in where you can grab a critical feat early, and more BAB to achieve that, like for Improved Critical or IPS. See below, where those feats arrive earlier than in your approach. :cool:

(* Remember, if you are only going to 20 and then RR/TR, you'll go to 18 and hold there while you bank 20. This is so you can still join Quest-Level 16 quests (as few want a L19 character). Then you take 20, grab your 20 Tokens of the Twelve, and reincarnate asap.)


So, all that combined would give you something like...

• Alternate Arti-multi Build
  14/4/2 Artificer/Fighter/Rogue
  True Neutral Warforged
  
  
  Level Order
  
  1. Rogue . . . . . 6. Artificer . . .11. Fighter. . . . 16. Artificer
  2. Artificer. . . .7. Fighter . . . .12. Artificer . . .17. Artificer
  3. Fighter . . . . 8. Artificer . . .13. Artificer . . .18. Artificer
  4. Rogue . . . . . 9. Fighter. . . . 14. Artificer. . . 19. Artificer
  5. Artificer. . . 10. Artificer. . . 15. Artificer. . . 20. Artificer
  
  
  Stats
  . . . . . . . .28pt . . Tome . . Level Up
  . . . . . . . .---- . . ----. . .--------
  Strength. . . . 11. . . . . . . . 4: INT
  Dexterity . . . 14. . . .+7. . . .8: INT
  Constitution. . 16. . . . . . . .12: INT
  Intelligence. . 17. . . .+7. . . 16: INT
  Wisdom. . . . . .6. . . . . . . .20: INT
  Charisma. . . . .6. . . . . . . .
  
  
  Skills
  . . . . . R .A .F. R .A .A .F. A. F .A .F. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A
  . . . . . 1 .2 .3. 4 .5 .6 .7. 8. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
  . . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
  Concent . 2 .3 . . . .2 .2 . . 2. . .2 . . 2. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
  Repair. . 4 . . 2 . . . . . 4 . . 2 . . 2 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .23
  Disable . 4 .1 . . 2 .1 .1 . . 2. . .2 . . 2. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
  Open Lo . 4 .1 . . . .3 .1 . . . . . . . . . .4 .3 .2 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .23
  Search. . 4 .1 . . 2 .1 .1 . . 2. . .2 . . 2. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
  Spot. . . 4 .1 . . 2 .1 .1 . . 2. . .2 . . 2. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
  UMD . . . 4 .1 . . 2 .1 .1 . . 2. . .2 . . 2. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
  Jump. . . 1 . . 5 . . . . . 4 . . 2 . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14
  Haggle. . 4 . . . .2. . .2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8
  Balance . 4 . . . .3. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .7
  Bluff . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .4
  Tumble. . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1
  . . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
  . . . . .42 .8 .7 13. 9. 9. 8 10. 4 10. 4 11 10 .9 .8 .7 .7 .7 .7 .7
  Max . . .44 .8 .7 13. 9. 9. 8 10. 8 10. 9 11 11 11 12 12 12 12 13 13
  
  
  Feats
  
  .1. . . . : Point Blank Shot
  .3. . . . : Precise Shot
  .3 Fighter: Rapid Shot
  .6. . . . : Insightful Reflexes
  .7 Fighter: Precision
  .8 Arti . : Weapon Focus: Ranged
  .9. . . . : Mithral Body
  11 Fighter: Improved Critical: Ranged
  12. . . . : Dodge
  14 Arti . : Improved Precise Shot
  15. . . . : Weapon Specialization: Ranged
  18. . . . : Mobility
  18 Arti . : Shot on the Run

I left a LOT of skill points on the table, 4 at the start and then a bunch starting ~Lvl 10. Be a Tumbling fool, max out Listen for those invisible enemies, go crazy.

And, as I said, that's only 1 possibility. You could take Unbongwah's excellent suggestion and just go pure Arti. You could dump Fighter and go Evasion Arti 18, or dump Rogue and go heavy-armor Arti w/ the Fighter boost. LOTS of ways to roll with this.


(Note re 17 Int: On any build without a Strength Tome, I hate suggesting a minimum Strength build, and especially if they have Evasion! (And it's only worse on Halflings/Gnomes! :rolleyes:) One suit of Plate Armor, a couple heavy weapons, and *poof* - you're Encumbered and a flat-footed mook, running slow and catching the next lightning bolt right in the teeth. NTY! :(

This build won't miss a few Skill Points, and w/ that +7 Int Tome the DPS/etc. won't suffer noticeably.)