Updated Death Penalty and Permanent Item Damage Changes

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Originally Posted by Hendrik

The DEV's say that there was/is. They are the ONLY ones with the proper information to make the decision and the power to do something about it. They have.

End of story.

End of line.

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And its no wonder why people have been leaving the game, They came here cause they didn't like WOW, the more they make it like WOW, the more people will leave thus making this game even more of a joke. But I guess everyone here likes WOW, so prepared for over half you current subscribers to leave. We like the game because it isn't WOW, so go ahead and keep clamering for it to be more WOW like and this game will die even faster.

FYI: The Devs are wrong and there info is skewed by the, omg, i zerged off without the party 9 times and died all nine times because noone followed me and the cleric didn't rez me or the **** I died 10 times doing WW on leet solo. idiots who tried to play this game.

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Originally Posted by xman26

Its obvious you did [play and like WoW].

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Wow, that's obvious huh?

(For the record, I've never played WoW and have no interest in doing so. Thanks.)

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Originally Posted by CSFurious

you & others who share your "anti-twinking" stance can form a new guild called:

"The Twinkies"

the rest of will continue to have fun

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If only it was that simple.

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Originally Posted by xman26

But I guess everyone here likes WOW, so prepared for over half you current subscribers to leave.

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Wait... my math may be bad here, but if "everyone here likes WOW", then which is the half that is going to leave? I mean, if everyone likes it, that seems to me like it would mean 100%. You can't have 50% "not like it" if 100% "like it".

Now I'm just confused by the brilliant logic that xman uses. Congrats. Maybe I should play WOW... is there less math there?

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Originally Posted by LordFancyPants

Wait... my math may be bad here, but if "everyone here likes WOW", then which is the half that is going to leave? I mean, if everyone likes it, that seems to me like it would mean 100%. You can't have 50% "not like it" if 100% "like it".

Now I'm just confused by the brilliant logic that xman uses. Congrats. Maybe I should play WOW... is there less math there?

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I say here as in the forums as there are far more people who the game then there are here who dont even come here.

I don't believe that making the game more accessible and less punishing to newer players will have a negative effect at all.

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Originally Posted by Eladrin

I don't believe that making the game more accessible and less punishing to newer players will have a negative effect at all.

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Get out of town.

The more I think about it the more I think there is a certain mad logic to this plan.....

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Originally Posted by xman26

I say here as in the forums as there are far more people who the game then there are here who dont even come here.

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What?

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Originally Posted by LordFancyPants

What?

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I think he's saying that everyone (assuming except him) is a WoW Fan and therefore has no credible arguments that can be used because despite what they are they will constantly and without exception be countered with ... "but you like WoW"

NOw I myself had no idea that I liked WoW... I did play WOW at one point and while there are a couple of interesting aspects of the game that could be integrated into the DDO model for benefit of the entire game, I find that overall the game is annoying and lacks any interest to me... which is why its so surprising to me that I "love WoW". I guess other people must know me so much better than I know myself... even people who have never met nor even carried on a conversation with me.

perhaps I should get a self help book.

Aesop

Peeked over the shoulders of friends that played (past tense) WoW. Definitely not for me. Never will be.

I agree with you that making the game more accessible and less punishing to new players will not be bad for the game. I don't think anyone here disagrees with that.

That's not the question. The question is whether this is the way to do it.

Can we stop pretending that those who don't like this change dislike it because they want to punish new players?

most people have simply argued that this will be less fun for most people, and specifically will make pugs less likely, especially at the moderate to high levels- the same point that the newer players are currently leaving.

Let one of those new players go into the pit in a pug that's unprepared or not working properly, let them get nakeded because of a combination of a chain of deaths and slime damage. All the while getting yelled at by the one experienced player in the party because they failed a jump, stumbled into a trap, fell in lava, whatever. That's not going to be very welcoming at all methinks.

As i said before. I hope you're right. i really do.

But most of the opposition to this is NOT coming from peopel who want to make the experience for newer players worse.

Having choices is always better then just changing a mechanic completely which is why I made my suggestion earlier, and flaming on xman because his opinion differs from yours, and/or is not good with his/her wording, like me is just being a stubborn mule that wants everything their way. I understand that you may like this "new" system better but some are happy with the way it is, or dont have a big problem with it, and obviously peeps that are fine with it werent going to make threads saying "omg this system is awesome ty" only peeps that have problems with it are going to make posts about how "omg this system is **** change it now" and we are now in place that peeps that are fine with the old will now have to deal with the new system that they may not like or like less than the previous? Why is that fair? There is alot that could be improved in the game, and would like to see changed, but if its something in this case where some dont want the change I think a middle ground is better. If the shoe was on the other foot and the new system was the one used now and the current was the new one coming into place wouldnt you want the middle ground then? I most assuredly think you would.

Xp loss with the option to buy a potion to regain xp debt is a middle ground, and there might be(probably is) a better way to do a middle ground as well. You can either choose to pay gold(like repairing damaged equipment) to gain back xp debt or take it like you do now, its a better fix imo.

If you only want to focus on changing it to your liking and some others your only adding to fuel for other peeps to come here and ask for it to be changed again, and where are we then, if they have to keep changing things around for stuff like this it will slow new content and/or enhancements to the game, and none of us want that do we?

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Originally Posted by PhoenixRajoNight

Having choices is always better then just changing a mechanic completely which is why I made my suggestion earlier, and flaming on xman because his opinion differs from yours, and/or is not good with his/her wording, like me is just being a stubborn mule that wants everything their way. I understand that you may like this "new" system better but some are happy with the way it is, or dont have a big problem with it, and obviously peeps that are fine with it werent going to make threads saying "omg this system is awesome ty" only peeps that have problems with it are going to make posts about how "omg this system is **** change it now" and we are now in place that peeps that are fine with the old will now have to deal with the new system that they may not like or like less than the previous? Why is that fair? There is alot that could be improved in the game, and would like to see changed, but if its something in this case where some dont want the change I think a middle ground is better. If the shoe was on the other foot and the new system was the one used now and the current was the new one coming into place wouldnt you want the middle ground then? I most assuredly think you would.

Xp loss with the option to buy a potion to regain xp debt is a middle ground, and there might be(probably is) a better way to do a middle ground as well. You can either choose to pay gold(like repairing damaged equipment) to gain back xp debt or take it like you do now, its a better fix imo.

If you only want to focus on changing it to your liking and some others your only adding to fuel for other peeps to come here and ask for it to be changed again, and where are we then, if they have to keep changing things around for stuff like this it will slow new content and/or enhancements to the game, and none of us want that do we?

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I don't really like your middle ground theroy. I've thought up several "straw-man" arguements against it but decided better and won't be posting them. Needless to say I like the new death "tax" and have heard a million times that this or that will make it harder to PUG, yet I have had zero trouble finding PUGs. I pretty much PUG all of the time.

The only thing I see this affecting is the Raids like the Abbot where people die like a MILLION times. If your running a regular old Elite quest I seriously doubt your dieing more than 3 times. 3 deaths is not going to cost more than the vendor trash you will pull from the chests, and is unlikely to make any of your gear unuseable. So I really don't see how this is going to effect PUGs for the vast majority of people. Except You and Xman26 who have made it clear you will no longer PUG with this system in place.

Really guys and I have avoided posting in this thread, (because I know I will be flamed for it) but the xp penalty is weak.

Even the new death penalty is rather weak. That being said, I like it a whole lot better than the current death penalty.

My thought on the matter, something killed you, it was probably something that is not conducive to your equipment staying in pristine shape. (this is not really even a death penalty, this is par for the course.)

So all the detah penalty really is, is a debuff that lasts for between 1 and 5 minutes...... Not really a major deal.

You all are really lucky I havent given my opinion on what the death penalty should be.

I thought the death penalty should have been a temporary -2 to all stats (minimum all stats go to is 2) and a 10 % alacrity and speed penalty..... for 2 minutes, per death. Every subsequent death would double the penalty if under the effect of one.

Raise dead would have no effect on the death penalty.
Ressurection would remove the alacrity and speed penalties.
True ressurection would cut the debuff time in half.

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Originally Posted by miceelf88

Can we stop pretending that those who don't like this change dislike it because they want to punish new players?

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Sure, right after we also stop pretending that:

People supporting this change want to punish veteran players (well more than a death penalty should normally).
People supporting this change are noobs.
People supporting this change just don't get it.
People supporting this change think the game should be work.
People supporting this change like WoW and should go back there.
The XP penalty system worked in any reasonable way.
It's Turbine's fault for not raising the level cap.
Dying repeatedly shouldn't inconvenience you in any way.
Everyone is suddenly, magically going to start buying plat now.

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Originally Posted by MysticTheurge

Sure, right after we also stop pretending that:

People supporting this change want to punish veteran players (well more than a death penalty should normally).
People supporting this change are noobs.
People supporting this change just don't get it.
People supporting this change think the game should be work.
People supporting this change like WoW and should go back there.
The XP penalty system worked in any reasonable way.
It's Turbine's fault for not raising the level cap.
Dying repeatedly shouldn't inconvenience you in any way.
Everyone is suddenly, magically going to start buying plat now.

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Bravo Mt, Bravo.

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Originally Posted by Devilsdelight

I don't really like your middle ground theroy. I've thought up several "straw-man" arguements against it but decided better and won't be posting them. Needless to say I like the new death "tax" and have heard a million times that this or that will make it harder to PUG, yet I have had zero trouble finding PUGs. I pretty much PUG all of the time.

The only thing I see this affecting is the Raids like the Abbot where people die like a MILLION times. If your running a regular old Elite quest I seriously doubt your dieing more than 3 times. 3 deaths is not going to cost more than the vendor trash you will pull from the chests, and is unlikely to make any of your gear unuseable. So I really don't see how this is going to effect PUGs for the vast majority of people. Except You and Xman26 who have made it clear you will no longer PUG with this system in place.

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Where am I mentioning PUG's?

There have been straw men on both sides. But I never made any of the statements you're attributing to me. And Eladrin, a dev, DID make the statement I'm attributing to him. You're essentially arguing that as long as any opponents of the change use strawmen, then eladrin should be able to as well.

I am assuming most of the people here, on both sides of the issue, want the game to fun for most people. We just have different ideas about how that would be.

I've also freely and frequently acknowledged that I might be wrong, and indeed that I hope I am.

And I think your suggested modifications are better than the original plan for the change. but the whole- someone on the side of the original penalty is making dishonest arguments, therefore everyone should be able to line is not conducive to a constructive discussion at all, IMHO.

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Originally Posted by MysticTheurge

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Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
I don't believe that making the game more accessible and less punishing to newer players will have a negative effect at all.


Get out of town.

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Ha ha!