The chasm between players and builds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oxarhamar

I disagree thou because these things just aren’t needed I run R10 with first life players

---

This is a major point that is also worth emphasizing. It is easy to assume R10's are solely run by those with completed characters and max reaper points. It is also easy to assume the power from past lives and reaper points will close that gap. This is tbh very far from the truth. The experience and knowledge that can only be gained by playing the game is where the biggest difference lies between new and veteran players. This has an effect on both sides of the argument though as those with the required amount of knowledge and experience tend to forget how tough and unforgiving the game is for those without it. Meanwhile those that don't have that knowledge and experience will automatically assume that a players power is responsible for the huge difference in achievable difficulty.

The problem is though that there is no solution to this issue. Those who either don't have the required skill level or haven't had the experiences required to learn those skills will all to often think that power is greater than skill or knowledge where the opposite is actually far closer to the truth.

Past lives can and do help, so do reaper points. They are not needed though to be able to play the game. Skill and knowledge though are vital and can only be gained by playing the game. A 1st life character played with skill will have no issues at all with R1-4. A completionist character played badly will still struggle in elite.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Weemadarthur

This is a major point that is also worth emphasizing. It is easy to assume R10's are solely run by those with completed characters and max reaper points. It is also easy to assume the power from past lives and reaper points will close that gap. This is tbh very far from the truth. The experience and knowledge that can only be gained by playing the game is where the biggest difference lies between new and veteran players. This has an effect on both sides of the argument though as those with the required amount of knowledge and experience tend to forget how tough and unforgiving the game is for those without it. Meanwhile those that don't have that knowledge and experience will automatically assume that a players power is responsible for the huge difference in achievable difficulty.

The problem is though that there is no solution to this issue. Those who either don't have the required skill level or haven't had the experiences required to learn those skills will all to often think that power is greater than skill or knowledge where the opposite is actually far closer to the truth.

Past lives can and do help, so do reaper points. They are not needed though to be able to play the game. Skill and knowledge though are vital and can only be gained by playing the game. A 1st life character played with skill will have no issues at all with R1-4. A completionist character played badly will still struggle in elite.

---

IMHO this game is just like any other game, real life games like football etc, or online games like DDO etc. To get to play in the NFL e.g., you simply have to be one of the best college players and be able to adapt to the higher level of play in the pros. DDO is the same. Some people are real great players and some are middle of the road, and others (like myself), are at the bottom of the heap. I am a much older player and what limits my play is to a certain extent the fact that I dont have the reflexes that I did when I was younger. The other main thing is that I dont have good keyboarding skills, so I have a limited number of keys I can hit reliably. So, basically, I just play the game off and on during the day to have fun and pass the time as I am retired.. If some people can actually take a first life toon with minimal equipment and do R10, good for them, though I really wonder if thats possible without being carried in a group. My advice to everyone is just to play the game to have fun with your friends and don't worry about rushing through past lives to better yourself. That sounds to me like that nasty 4 letter word WORK. Games are supposed to be fun, not work.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bagel99

Triple heroic completionist .... epic completionist .... racial completionist ? So many things, soon legendary completionist im sure. What is that like 150 lives ?

---

I have 165 total past lives in the spreadsheet I use to track my progress.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TPICKRELL

I have 165 total past lives in the spreadsheet I use to track my progress.

---

Yeah 165 is the current number with Tabaxi racial and iconic adding the last 6. Just hit 150 myself, so I got about two months left to finish.

That being said a character is far more than just their past lives and reaper points. A proper spec and gear* make up most of the character, like 80% plus. After that you want to be on your third life or later with +7/+8 tomes and maybe 21 reaper points, now you're at 90% plus.

*I don't mean raid gear either. Sharn and Feywild sets are great starts and what I still use as primary gear.

I've seen many multi life players get flack from their guildies for performing soo much better than them, I get this all the time. It's always something like "...but you have soo many pastlives." Which is awesome when I'm not on my main and can point out that they actually have more pastlives than my alt.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fauxknight

Yeah 165 is the current number with Tabaxi racial and iconic adding the last 6. Just hit 150 myself, so I got about two months left to finish.

That being said a character is far more than just their past lives and reaper points. A proper spec and gear* make up most of the character, like 80% plus. After that you want to be on your third life or later with +7/+8 tomes and maybe 21 reaper points, now you're at 90% plus.

*I don't mean raid gear either. Sharn and Feywild sets are great starts and what I still use as primary gear.

I've seen many multi life players get flack from their guildies for performing soo much better than them, I get this all the time. It's always something like "...but you have soo many pastlives." Which is awesome when I'm not on my main and can point out that they actually have more pastlives than my alt.

---

The changes to stats on items made properly gearing up a whole lot harder.

Even in gear land there is a huge chasm between those who have and those who are just starting out.
A fully LGS twinked out char has abilities that are off the charts compared to "just" level 29 gear.
It can't even compare to the new dinocrafted stuff.
And it has a grind of 3+ years on a single char to get that type of load out.

All of this - the entire thread - misses the main problem in DDO.

If you don't like Reaper play (which I really don't) you're never going to have the opportunity to group much (which I don't either) at cap and often not much along the way.

The addition of Reaper shifted the meta in a way that is truly harmful to social game play as defined by most MMO players. This means that you have the choice of hopping on the Reaper train or not grouping or inevitably going to play another game where you can group with large numbers of people not grinding away at maximum speed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by krimsonrane

Over the past couple day's I've watched videos that really highlight the difference in player power scales.
I saw one pali with 9.4k HP. 910 PRR, 560 MRR and 400+ AC. If I didn't see it with my own eyes I'd swear it was impossible. He wasn't even buffed.
I watched a few r10 solos. Then earlier today I viewed a video from someone just starting to experiment with DDO. He was so proud of his broken build. He didn't think it was broken of course. it did what he wanted it to do.
Watched some other videos with power scales between the S&B barb to the 10khp pali.

To reach those upper levels, it really is all about knowledge base, time, layers and farming.
Layers of heroic PLs, epic PLs, racial PLs, full reaper trees, farmed out crafted gear, raid gear, and all that comes with having those layers.
get gud in DDO literally translates as grind moar and farm harder.

If one plays at a rate similar to my own, we're talking about a RL decade plus of grinding to get from the bottom to the top. That's how vast the chasm is today. A lot like rl society I guess.

---

100% see your point. But if you do not mind, here are a few as well:

- I have been playing ddo for almost its existence, back to beta. When the f2p model was introduced, shortly after, TRs and past life benefits and eventually completionist was introduced. This is the time in end game when auto crits and insta kills were the meta (monks and DC wizards). Tanks were needed as well for bosses, expecially raids. Heck BYOH was a common Epic LFM, but you never went in difficult content without a DC wizard. First life DC Wizards did not work. First life monks were ineffective. Past lives mattered so much more on those critical roles, way more than today. But there was also only one difficulty in end game...epic (later adjusting to epic elite). This was the heighth of DDO imo. To succeed you needed roles, teamwork, good lead, game knowledge, coordination, the right gear, etc. But not all roles required past lives to be effective. Tanks, DPS, Healers, trappers were effective with or without PLs.

- Epic Elite (old epics) became trivial in all but raids with the creation of new power. Mostly because balancing between heroics and epic levels so that new or low PL characters could not participate in more challenging content. And since this is an older MMO, the devs need to attract new players and keep them. But the meta players lobbied for harder content, so reaper was born. Personally, I think reaper is a great idea as we needed a higher difficulty. But reaper rewards (reaper points) ruined the idea. All it did was exaggerate the issues. To me this is probably the bigger advantage even over PLs. I personally would love to see reaper points as a different currency other than character power. They could be used to purchase conveinces such as fast wilderness or public travel, cosmetics for you or your mount, storage space, account unlocks, etc, but not power.

- MoTU and epic destinies kind of changed the narrative. More PLs were amplified. Every class to some degree is tied into DCs. More PLs = more DPs. Most mobs can save for half damage. Trapping requires huge investment. Healers are expected to damage outside of raids and first life healers are targeted so its difficult for them to stay alive. The devs spend far too much time balancing for heroic and epics, which is futile, as they really are 2 different games.

- I know the ship has probably sailed. But in hindsight (although I suggested back when MoTU was introduced), EDs and new epics (and eventually legendary) should have been a different game...DDO2. This would have allowed a new client and engine, allowed the devs to better target balance where it was needed and also allowed people to enjoy end game at both levels of the game. Now that legendary content is coming, it will become an even bigger issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jskinner937

100% see your point. But if you do not mind, here are a few as well:

- I have been playing ddo for almost its existence, back to beta. When the f2p model was introduced, shortly after, TRs and past life benefits and eventually completionist was introduced. This is the time in end game when auto crits and insta kills were the meta (monks and DC wizards). Tanks were needed as well for bosses, expecially raids. Heck BYOH was a common Epic LFM, but you never went in difficult content without a DC wizard. First life DC Wizards did not work. First life monks were ineffective. Past lives mattered so much more on those critical roles, way more than today. But there was also only one difficulty in end game...epic (later adjusting to epic elite). This was the heighth of DDO imo. To succeed you needed roles, teamwork, good lead, game knowledge, coordination, the right gear, etc. But not all roles required past lives to be effective. Tanks, DPS, Healers, trappers were effective with or without PLs.

- Epic Elite (old epics) became trivial in all but raids with the creation of new power. Mostly because balancing between heroics and epic levels so that new or low PL characters could not participate in more challenging content. And since this is an older MMO, the devs need to attract new players and keep them. But the meta players lobbied for harder content, so reaper was born. Personally, I think reaper is a great idea as we needed a higher difficulty. But reaper rewards (reaper points) ruined the idea. All it did was exaggerate the issues. To me this is probably the bigger advantage even over PLs. I personally would love to see reaper points as a different currency other than character power. They could be used to purchase conveinces such as fast wilderness or public travel, cosmetics for you or your mount, storage space, account unlocks, etc, but not power.

- MoTU and epic destinies kind of changed the narrative. More PLs were amplified. Every class to some degree is tied into DCs. More PLs = more DPs. Most mobs can save for half damage. Trapping requires huge investment. Healers are expected to damage outside of raids and first life healers are targeted so its difficult for them to stay alive. The devs spend far too much time balancing for heroic and epics, which is futile, as they really are 2 different games.

- I know the ship has probably sailed. But in hindsight (although I suggested back when MoTU was introduced), EDs and new epics (and eventually legendary) should have been a different game...DDO2. This would have allowed a new client and engine, allowed the devs to better target balance where it was needed and also allowed people to enjoy end game at both levels of the game. Now that legendary content is coming, it will become an even bigger issue.

---

Being a generally disagreeable person I'm trying really really hard here to find something to disagree with. I think though I am going to have to admit to being beat here as I actually agree with everything you said lol. +1

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KoobTheProud

All of this - the entire thread - misses the main problem in DDO.

If you don't like Reaper play (which I really don't) you're never going to have the opportunity to group much (which I don't either) at cap and often not much along the way.

The addition of Reaper shifted the meta in a way that is truly harmful to social game play as defined by most MMO players. This means that you have the choice of hopping on the Reaper train or not grouping or inevitably going to play another game where you can group with large numbers of people not grinding away at maximum speed.

---

The difficulty in reaper is not the issue. Its the reaper rewards that are the issue. If players are bored, they break or quit. So the social aspect of the game will break anyway. But when the game motivates r4+ as the default difficulty, because of the rewards (more exp, higher loot chance, REAPER POINTS) this is when the difficulty trumps any good for game population it was expected to bring. And considering the first time bonuses, people opt out of any LFM that is not mid-high reaper for 30+ quests coming off a TR, which leads to even further divide.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fauxknight

Yeah 165 is the current number with Tabaxi racial and iconic adding the last 6. Just hit 150 myself, so I got about two months left to finish.

That being said a character is far more than just their past lives and reaper points. A proper spec and gear* make up most of the character, like 80% plus. After that you want to be on your third life or later with +7/+8 tomes and maybe 21 reaper points, now you're at 90% plus.

*I don't mean raid gear either. Sharn and Feywild sets are great starts and what I still use as primary gear.

I've seen many multi life players get flack from their guildies for performing soo much better than them, I get this all the time. It's always something like "...but you have soo many pastlives." Which is awesome when I'm not on my main and can point out that they actually have more pastlives than my alt.

---

I agree with your sentiments, but not your take on the percentages. IMO you are underselling the cumulative power of the past lives/reaper points. What all the past lives give you is PASSIVE survivability and to a lesser extent DC's/DPS... That allows a lot more discretion in how you choose to spend your various discretionary points to lean in to whatever you want from your build. Most of the DDO grinds are front loaded, so you get more from the first ones (if chosen wisely for your purposes) than you do the last few. So you don't have to climb the entire wall of past lives to get very noticeable benefits.

I've heard the same "you have so many past lives and reaper points" that you have. But in my experience that's usually more about a lack of focus from those players. Most of the folks who have said that were doing there own builds by gut feel, rather than purposely building a toon to fulfill a role, and the results are often a mess without the leverage that is available by purposely layering choices. Once they started designing a toon for their purpose, they stopped making those comments. Getting past lives and/or reaper points is a purpose, and its a lot easier to do that if you design for it. This is especially true if you are trying to get your past lives and reaper points mostly solo(the hard slow way to do it).

And the grind is huge, but it need not take years. I've run with folks who have taken a beginner toon and gained complete completionest (all past lives and all spendable reaper points) in less than a year. But they did that by designing and gearing a specific build that they could run efficiently, and by finding a support group of guildies or friends who they could count on to help them move efficiently. I'm not talking about myself, I've done it the slower and harder way. But I've witnessed it in action.

Also, there's a lot of roles in DDO that do not require all those past lives to be effective. My wife runs several Ranged Raid toons that are low lives and low reaper points. But by focusing on one or two roles and almost exclusively in raids, she is very effective. Those toons aren't effective soloers, and are less effective in party groups where the load is more concentrated on each party member. But they are very effective in guild raids. And those toons help her build up the raid runes and threads she needs for other toons that she is developing to have a broader scope.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TPICKRELL

I've heard the same "you have so many past lives and reaper points" that you have. But in my experience that's usually more about a lack of focus from those players. Most of the folks who have said that were doing there own builds by gut feel, rather than purposely building a toon to fulfill a role, and the results are often a mess without the leverage that is available by purposely layering choices.

---

I mean, that's what I said, though I summed it up simply as 'proper spec'. I mean the horror stories I could tell about this one. I get blue in the face telling people things like not to spend 57 points in a single tree or not to forget the one feat/ability that actually makes their build work (like not having primary attribute to damage). It's not uncommon to see someone trying to follow a good listed build, but then they don't understand the most important parts of the build and simply decide to ad lib and not take them.

Gear follows much along the same lines, usually a complaint about not doing enough damage leads into finding out they never bothered to get the 3rd piece of their Sharn set, that at level 15+ that half their gear are level 5 green items, or that they're using a level 15 sword at level 30 because "they like that sword". A complaint about not having enough hit points usually turns out that they have no CON gear on. Has hit points but is too squishy, doesn't have any PRR/MRR, blur, ghostly, or dodge. I've seen people take off their good set armor to put on a green useless stat chest piece because "it has more AC". It's not uncommon to see people with the same non-stacking stat on half of their gear even though they know it doesn't stack.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jskinner937

The difficulty in reaper is not the issue. Its the reaper rewards that are the issue. If players are bored, they break or quit. So the social aspect of the game will break anyway. But when the game motivates r4+ as the default difficulty, because of the rewards (more exp, higher loot chance, REAPER POINTS) this is when the difficulty trumps any good for game population it was expected to bring. And considering the first time bonuses, people opt out of any LFM that is not mid-high reaper for 30+ quests coming off a TR, which leads to even further divide.

---

It's not the difficulty in Reaper. It's the *fact* that Reaper splits an already small player base even further.

If Reaper was just one difficulty level then this would be a minor issue. It would still split the player base but not in the highly granular way that it does now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Weemadarthur

This is a major point that is also worth emphasizing. It is easy to assume R10's are solely run by those with completed characters and max reaper points. It is also easy to assume the power from past lives and reaper points will close that gap. This is tbh very far from the truth. The experience and knowledge that can only be gained by playing the game is where the biggest difference lies between new and veteran players. This has an effect on both sides of the argument though as those with the required amount of knowledge and experience tend to forget how tough and unforgiving the game is for those without it. Meanwhile those that don't have that knowledge and experience will automatically assume that a players power is responsible for the huge difference in achievable difficulty.

The problem is though that there is no solution to this issue. Those who either don't have the required skill level or haven't had the experiences required to learn those skills will all to often think that power is greater than skill or knowledge where the opposite is actually far closer to the truth.

Past lives can and do help, so do reaper points. They are not needed though to be able to play the game. Skill and knowledge though are vital and can only be gained by playing the game. A 1st life character played with skill will have no issues at all with R1-4. A completionist character played badly will still struggle in elite.

---

Say what? I'm unable to get a decent stun DC that works on R1 and I have all the "stuff" on my pali. Blaming peoples skill levels is a big assumption. This idea of needing "the required skill level" is a lot like saying it gets good after 100 hours. Some folks can play basketball for fun just fine. They don't need professional athlete level skills just to drop a ball in a hole. Thinking you have to spend hundreds of hours perfecting your twitch and twerk to play a video game is a poor excuse for bad game design.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fauxknight

I mean, that's what I said, though I summed it up simply as 'proper spec'. I mean the horror stories I could tell about this one. I get blue in the face telling people things like not to spend 57 points in a single tree or not to forget the one feat/ability that actually makes their build work (like not having primary attribute to damage). It's not uncommon to see someone trying to follow a good listed build, but then they don't understand the most important parts of the build and simply decide to ad lib and not take them.

Gear follows much along the same lines, usually a complaint about not doing enough damage leads into finding out they never bothered to get the 3rd piece of their Sharn set, that at level 15+ that half their gear are level 5 green items, or that they're using a level 15 sword at level 30 because "they like that sword". A complaint about not having enough hit points usually turns out that they have no CON gear on. Has hit points but is too squishy, doesn't have any PRR/MRR, blur, ghostly, or dodge. I've seen people take off their good set armor to put on a green useless stat chest piece because "it has more AC". It's not uncommon to see people with the same non-stacking stat on half of their gear even though they know it doesn't stack.

---

If we are speaking as far as getting players up to snuff, i agree itemization, knowledge and general planning for both toons and dungeons are what make or break your experience. Game knowledge is the greatest power, i used to remember when i started wanting to play a Cleric S&B Bastard sword toon .... why? Cause anarchic glows pink and purple ... looked cool and i could heal myself cause i didn't know what hirelings or avoid damage meant. I thought it was the stuff back then! Its second nature now to just efficiently itemize my enhancements and look for gear that keeps me swinging even if my damage is 80% of what it could be. 80% damage 100% of the time is better than 150% for 30 seconds. Most people neglect PRR and MRR though, even some long-time players because it was introduced later on.

Small side note i think Armor should list its PRR/MRR then its AC, AC + DEX, etc.
Example:
Heavy Plate of False Numbers
ML:5
PRR: 20
MRR:5
AC: 12
Max Dex: 1

Mostly AC is kind've useless i've found. It helps but i deal in absolutes. PRR/MRR are my favorite and HP is a close second. AC, Blur Effects and Dodge are all icing.

Previous notes about Reaper and past lives though. Reaper is mainly skill based, Reaper Enhancements sadly take away from what reaper was supposed to be. Past lives are optional but i feel like the reward of them should apply to all toons to allow for fun and easy ways to try new builds. I got a nice Fire AA/EK I want to try out but i need 3 Racial AP to make it feel good, and my main is currently doing its thing and i have one other alt i could roll but they are my gear farming toon ( EK so i can solo and not have to rely on pugs or grouping if its an odd time since i work late into the day ).

So Far though all good points, i really am enjoying the discussion here to better everyone's toons and gameplay.

IF Lamania was open as a VIP feature 24/7 im sure many much much stronger builds would be discovered, and i know some hide their builds to be both different and keep their wombo combos hidden.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by krimsonrane

Say what? I'm unable to get a decent stun DC that works on R1 and I have all the "stuff" on my pali. Blaming peoples skill levels is a big assumption. This idea of needing "the required skill level" is a lot like saying it gets good after 100 hours. Some folks can play basketball for fun just fine. They don't need professional athlete level skills just to drop a ball in a hole. Thinking you have to spend hundreds of hours perfecting your twitch and twerk to play a video game is a poor excuse for bad game design.

---

Time to learn a game is subjective based on player and the genre. For an MMO like 100hrs to come up to snuff isnt that bad, seems about average. For 2D or 3D fighters like Tekken thousands are required with having the same abilities as everyone else. And not everyone has to play 110% in a group. Many casually perform at some players 150% effort because of repetition and muscle memory. Easiest example is jumping across traps and ... god forbid i use this as a measure of skill and comfort with the game .... Ledges and ladders.

BUT i do agree needing 110 Stun DC for something might be a requirement to play a melee role for high content and seems kind've silly sometimes. On the other hand it was made to be silly so we had to work HARD to get there, but having to work hard for years on one toon is what gets me, sometimes i wanna switch my playstyles and wish all my work aided these goals. The other thing is i don't mind Vets having these bonuses, they are here to help and we all kill the same mobs and get the same XP at the end of the day. Any character can contribute, but with the way it is in DDO its very unlike other games that a new first life toon is 90% as powerful as a longstanding one looking to eek out the last few percent. DDO has steps and plateaus with 28,24 & 36 point builds, Destiny Points ( arguably stronger than any of the pastlives ) Racial AP ... Half Orcs get some nice crunchy damage from these for example or human Hamp. a New toon may only be 66% as effective in numbers but may also have the right niche setup ( Para AA or Cleric nuker ) to make or break that quest.

Its just really hard to pinpoint one issue as Epics differ from Heroics and Legendary is going to take on a different scale altogether due to climbing Melee Power, Ranged Power and Spell Power numbers. Reaper adds in a whole new game. I also think we are far past difficulties being locked to VIP status or not, if a new player wants to go "heh i got this on elite and get struck by lightning in the harbor" thats how i learned resistances were a thing and fighters need skill to play.

I'm not really sure where people get the notion that past lives make no difference.

I build a lot of alts for farming purposes(such as grinding dino boners in the wilderness of IoD, grinding star fragments in Saltmarsh, etc). At one point I had a sorc alt who was at complete parity with my main in terms of gear. In fact, the alt had slightly better gear. Well despite all of this, the main with 150 or so past lives could easily solo reapers while the alt could barely survive. Both were speced out exactly the same and played by the same person in the same way. So yeah, PLs make a huge difference.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eantarus

I'm not really sure where people get the notion that past lives make no difference.

I build a lot of alts for farming purposes(such as grinding dino boners in the wilderness of IoD, grinding star fragments in Saltmarsh, etc). At one point I had a sorc alt who was at complete parity with my main in terms of gear. In fact, the alt had slightly better gear. Well despite all of this, the main with 150 or so past lives could easily solo reapers while the alt could barely survive. Both were speced out exactly the same and played by the same person in the same way. So yeah, PLs make a huge difference.

---

I know right?!
I have a toon with a couple dozen past lives and toons with 3-4 or none. The difference in power and defense is far from negligible. It makes all the difference in the world.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Weemadarthur

The problem is though that account based progression won't really effect this in a significant way. If someone wants maximum power it will still be faster and easier to get with 1 character. That character will still have the best tomes (unless you make those account bound), will still have the best gear (unless that becomes unbound or account wide) and each life will still be needed to be played so the time taken will still be exactly the same. The only effect it will have is to make it easier to play alts, get out of a bad build and remove a huge portion of revenue from the game (which is why it won't happen).

---

Right, account-based progression would make it not super easy to max out 20 characters because there is much more than past lives and reaper experience to do in DDO.
The main difference to the current system is basically that if you want to play a different build you would then have the option to start a new character instead of TRing your so-called "main" and play him like a so-called "main" who TRed and lost his TR cache and all things I bought in the DDO Shop and other things like the remnants/threads of fate tomes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Weemadarthur

Now the revenue part will probably need a little explaining so please try to understand this one concept. Most players pay a small portion of what makes this game run. In an average game 80% of the income is generated by 20% of the population. In this game that top 20% are the ones spending tens or even hundreds of thousands per year on XP pots and Ottos stones. They have multiple completed characters. Every time they finish one they start another and spend tens of thousands again leveling them. Make progress account based and the are left with nothing to do. They take their money and go.

---

Actually, I have to admit that I don't know at all if such mythic whales exist who have 10 characters and all maxed out with 165 Otto's boxes on each.
If you ask me I would say not a single such player exists but SSG knows it better...
And the reason why I believe that such players don't exist is mainly the thought that even IF you would have an unlimited amount of money you would most likely not do it because getting 165 past lives is most likely for someone who has that amount of money still too boring to do even IF he uses Otto's boxes.
But of course, SSG could introduce a new pay-to-win item for double the price where you buy your past life with one click :rolleyes:
Anyway, I would think it would be VERY sad if the only reason why SSG doesn't introduce account-based progression are a few whales who might buy enormous amounts of Otto's Boxes for alts.
Not to mention that even IF such whales exist that SSG should introduce other ways without pay to win to make them support DDO.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Weemadarthur

Now I don't think everything should be made account wide but some of the oldest grinds I feel could be (eg heroic past lives and crafting). By making some account based and not all you are still keeping the interest of those famous MMO whales (some may even be more likely to spend on another character with less grind involved) while also giving the illusion of faster progress to those that are new. Add in a couple of catch up mechanisms for those account based progressions and it should make more money then rather than less.

As a side note yes you could make account based progress purely optional. Do you honestly think for a minute though that someone who spends tens or hundreds of thousands on this game to bypass playing significant portions of it will in all honesty not a) tick that box and b) complain about having nothing left to do and leave?

---

I see the account-based progression as a kind of next step in DDO, some things are fun when you have to do them one time but doing them all over again on each new character is simply NOT fun increasing.
And of course, I would not make everything account based, there is no answer called "account-based progression" that fits all questions.
For example, I would also make cosmetics account-wide like Mounts (actually most things are server based while it would be better to make them really account based).
But I would not make tomes or items account-based and of course, you should play all your characters individually from 1 to 32, I don't want to "clone" so-called "mains" with everything!
Not to mention that SSG should design DDO anyway in a way that the majority of players have enough to do on ONE character and with account-based progression they have then just only the option to have more than one character available when they invest like 10% additional time on each but 100% of the DDO points in the Shop.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TPICKRELL

I have 165 total past lives in the spreadsheet I use to track my progress.

---

Some of those can be redundant when Iconics offer both Heroic & Iconic pl

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by krimsonrane

I know right?!
I have a toon with a couple dozen past lives and toons with 3-4 or none. The difference in power and defense is far from negligible. It makes all the difference in the world.

---

And then everyone says "oh well you can just play on lower difficulty". Yeah, technically, if you're only playing for fun. If you're running through new content for the first time, sure. If you actually want to accomplish anything or(and this is the biggest use for alts) farm gear, you are wasting your time on anything less than elite.