U51 Early Preview: Epic Feats, Destiny Feats, and Legendary Feats Changes

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Originally Posted by Cocomajobo

Scion of Air

• Scion of Air
  +4 to the DCs of Evocation spells, +2 to the DCs of other spells
  +4% Dodge, +4 to Dodge Cap
  +10 Electric Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power, +20% Electric Spell Critical Damage
  Add 2d20 Electric damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)

Scion of Celestia

• +20 Positive, Light, & Alignment Spell Power, +20 Universal Spell Power
• +20% Positive, Light, and Alignment Spell Critical Damage
• +150 Maximum Hit Points
• +4 to Will Saves

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Scion of Celestia really needs +4 evo +2 all DCs too. All the other (element) Scion feats give DC. They also all give 4 "abilities", Celestia only gives 3. The other (elemental) scion feats have spell power AND spell critical damage as one "ability", but not Celestia's; it's split into two.

Also, as a previous poster said, the Epic spellpower feats are admittedly pretty weak still. +20sp on a 700 sp build is only a ~3% dps increase. Maybe +50 spellpower of an element would be a little better? But the +10% spell critical damage is definitely a nice addition.

Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Aelastiar

Scion of Celestia really needs +4 evo +2 all DCs too. All the other (element) Scion feats give DC. They also all give 4 "abilities", Celestia only gives 3. The other (elemental) scion feats have spell power AND spell critical damage as one "ability", but not Celestia's; it's split into two.

Thank you.

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Agree.

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Originally Posted by Aelastiar

Scion of Celestia really needs +4 evo +2 all DCs too. All the other (element) Scion feats give DC. They also all give 4 "abilities", Celestia only gives 3. The other (elemental) scion feats have spell power AND spell critical damage as one "ability", but not Celestia's; it's split into two.

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Perhaps unpopular, but Abjuration currently has no DC support. This might be the place for it?

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Originally Posted by Steelstar

Their effectiveness in combat is high relative to the amount of investment needed to use them (DCs needed to land them are somewhat low relative to other abilities and/or dumping DCs and relying on the occasional nat-1 is considered a worthwhile use case)

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I agree mass frog is a no-brainer on a caster, but not for the reason you say. Undead and Constructs have sufficiently low saves that with just universal dc and no investment in wisdom you can kill a large % of these enemy types with this spell (excluding golems and other things with spell resistance).

I would say it is taken by most casters because having a useful ability against just undead and constructs beats all the alternative choices which are absolute weak-sauce and/or do not work properly. Aside form using it against undead or constructs - I never use it for the natural 1 chance and given the spell point cost that would be a poor usage of the spell. There are enough tools that work reliably to use a caster is never going to waste spell points on something that only works if the enemy rolls a 1.

There has been alot of emphasis on knocking casters down a peg (or multiple pegs) in recent years. I hope there is some attempt to address the major problem casters have that prevent them from filling dps spots in raids - single target damage.

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Originally Posted by nobodynobody1426

Are there plans to fix up the other high level Destiny Feats like Elusive Target, Deific Warding, Hell Ball, Spirit Blades, Guardian Angel, Holy Strikes and such? Those are all pretty bad choices which is why every melee just defaults to Dire Charge and casters to Mass Frog.

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Agreed. The other feats are very weak.

I don't know it seems that all of these changes are solely aimed at fixing some issue with spellcasting, dcs and spell crits. With all of the nerfs to melee, could we get something in there for melee too? How about rethinking that Astral Plane and Ethereal Planefor once and kicking force damage out of Arborea and giving it something useful? Also, what's the point of Elysium again? Is that in there to make sure that people are reading the descriptions or just to troll people?

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Originally Posted by Cocomajobo

Disclaimer

Everything seen on the preview server, Lamannia, is not final and is subject to change or removal before live release.

In this new framework we are moving some specific power out of the ED trees and into the into the Epic and Destiny feats to help reduce the power spike in the Destinies themselves while still retaining original player power. This also let us boost feats that are currently underperforming. Our other goal with this pass was to spread out power that is currently concentrated in the upper end of the game and bring it lower so that players can access it sooner. So, we've both added power to epic/destiny feats and made them available at lower levels.

We also wanted to make the Legendary "Scion of" Feats provide more of a competitive choice, which meant boosting the non-Fire feats considerably in the spellcasting department. Finally, we are removing the Epic Skill feats from the game, which will cut down on feat clutter considerably.

Changes in Teal

Epic Feats
Epic Power (autogranted feat)
+3 Melee Power, +3 Ranged Power, +6 Universal Spell Power and -1% to the Spell Point cost of all spells.
now also provides +1 spellcast level with all casting classes for every 2 times this feat is applied (for a total of +5 to all casting classes at level 30)

Destiny Feats:
ALL DESTINY FEATS NO LONGER CONTAIN SPHERE REQUIREMENTS

Epic Spellpower (all types)
Provides +20 Spellpower with the associated elemental type
Now also provides +10% spell critical damage with the appropriate elemental type

Epic Skill Focus (all skills)
Removed from the game!

Dire Charge
Dire Charge is no longer an Epic Feat; it can now be found in Legendary Dreadnought.

Mass Frog
Mass Frog is no longer an Epic Feat; it can now be found in Primal Avatar.

Destiny Feats with NO MIN LEVEL
Now have Min Level 22

Destiny Feats with Min Level 28
Now have Min Level 25

Destiny Feats with min Level 29
Now have Min Level 28

Legendary Feats
Scion of Earth

• +4 to the DCs of Conjuration and Transmutation spells, +2 to the DCs of other spells
• +20 PRR
• +10 Acid and Poison Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power, +20% Acid and Poison Spell Critical Damage
• Add 2d20 Acid damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)

Scion of Air

• +4 to the DCs of Evocation spells, +2 to the DCs of other spells
• +4% Dodge, +4 to Dodge Cap
• +10 Electric Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power, +20% Electric Spell Critical Damage
• Add 2d20 Electric damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)

Scion of Fire

• No longer grants +25% Spell Critical Damage with all spells
• +4 to the DCs of Evocation spells, +2 to the DCs of other spells
• +10 PRR, +10 MRR
• +10 Fire Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power, +20% Fire Spell Critical Damage
• Add 2d20 Fire damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)

Scion of Water

• No longer grants +200 Maximum Spell Points
• +4 to the DCs of Evocation spells, +2 to the DCs of other spells
• +20 MRR
• +10 Cold Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power, +20% Cold Spell Critical Damage
• Add 2d20 Cold damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)

Scion of Feywild

• +10 Sonic Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power, +20% Sonic Spell Critical Damage
• +4 to the DCs of Enchantment and Illusion spells, +2 to DCs of other spells
• Add 2d20 Sonic damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)
• +20 Healing Amp

Scion of Shadowfell

• +4 to the DCs of Necromancy spells, +2 to DCs of other spells
• +10 Negative Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power, +20% Negative Spell Critical Damage. (note that the Poison Spellpower moved to the Scion of Earth feat)
• +20 Negative Amp (assuming you take healing from Negative)
• Weapon and Unarmed attacks heal you for 1d6 Positive damage, or 1d6 Negative damage if you are Undead.

Scion of Mechanus

• +20 Repair & Rust Spell Power, +20 Universal Spell Power, +20% Repair and Rust Spell Critical Damage
• +20 Repair Amplification (assuming you take healing from Repair)
• +10% Fortification Bypass on weapon and unarmed attacks
• Gain: Master Reconstruction, shares cooldown with Communion of Scribing

Scion of Celestia

• +20 Positive, Light, & Alignment Spell Power, +20 Universal Spell Power
• +20% Positive, Light, and Alignment Spell Critical Damage
• +150 Maximum Hit Points
• +4 to Will Saves

As a reminder, there are no more Sphere requirements (because there are no more Spheres), and any character may choose any feat from the Destiny feat list assuming they meet the other prerequisites (if any). This is incredibly important because it means that even characters who are brand new to Epics can choose from the same pool of Feats that an established player can without needing to grind out Epic Destiny XP.

We think these changes in combination with the Epic/Destiny Feat Tie-Ins in the trees themselves will create a far more compelling level-up flow for Epic play, and allow players to explore new and exciting combinations and builds without worrying about Destiny XP requirements.

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Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer

Good change IMO. Mandatory feats are boring.

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Mandatory feats should be made baseline if they make gameplay more fun. Playing melee without Dire Charge sucks so is one feat I would prefer to make baseline (or reduce mob damage so aoe CC isnt as mandatory as it is now)

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Originally Posted by Cocomajobo

Scion of Fire

• No longer grants +25% Spell Critical Damage with all spells
• +4 to the DCs of Evocation spells, +2 to the DCs of other spells
• +10 PRR, +10 MRR
• +10 Fire Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power, +20% Fire Spell Critical Damage
• Add 2d20 Fire damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)

[

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This feat doesnt have +4 evo and +2 all dcs on live. The text isnt in blue but its a change if you are adding the dcs with u51. So are you adding the dcs to this feat for u51?

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Originally Posted by Cocomajobo

Disclaimer

Everything seen on the preview server, Lamannia, is not final and is subject to change or removal before live release.

We think these changes in combination with the Epic/Destiny Feat Tie-Ins in the trees themselves will create a far more compelling level-up flow for Epic play, and allow players to explore new and exciting combinations and builds without worrying about Destiny XP requirements.

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This would be false

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Originally Posted by JoeCamb02140

I don't know it seems that all of these changes are solely aimed at fixing some issue with spellcasting, dcs and spell crits. With all of the nerfs to melee, could we get something in there for melee too? How about rethinking that Astral Plane and Ethereal Planefor once and kicking force damage out of Arborea and giving it something useful? Also, what's the point of Elysium again? Is that in there to make sure that people are reading the descriptions or just to troll people?

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It's basically a massive across the board nerf, they handed out melee power but then nerfed / removed the things that let people push it. So far every tree got an important useful ability either nerfed or removed entirely. It's like they looked at each tree on live and said "what's the strongest things in this tree, ok delete and replace with flavor".

This is a major melee nerf with a caster buff. Especially for monks. That is all I play. lets see, how does my attack sequence go? Dire Charge/and or EIN/and or Mass Frog.

Wait a sec...you are telling me that I lost EIN completely, I cant take Dire Charge and still get the monk goodies from GMOF, so no massive stunning, which keeps me somewhat alive and playable, and on top of that I cant use mass frog ever again, cause I can guarantee I will never use primal avatar as a melee.

If you goal was to crucify monks, congrats. I truly hope this is not final. This is a sad day for an almost uber completionist (150/156) in which I poured my heart and soul into perfecting my monk.

I can't even, I really can't...

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Originally Posted by Nickodeamous

This is a major melee nerf with a caster buff. Especially for monks. That is all I play. lets see, how does my attack sequence go? Dire Charge/and or EIN/and or Mass Frog.

Wait a sec...you are telling me that I lost EIN completely, I cant take Dire Charge and still get the monk goodies from GMOF, so no massive stunning, which keeps me somewhat alive and playable, and on top of that I cant use mass frog ever again, cause I can guarantee I will never use primal avatar as a melee.

If you goal was to crucify monks, congrats. I truly hope this is not final. This is a sad day for an almost uber completionist (150/156) in which I poured my heart and soul into perfecting my monk.

I can't even, I really can't...

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It's a caster nerf too, reduced crit percent and spell DC, though the DC part might be fixable depending what EA / neo-Magister does.

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Originally Posted by arminius

Yep, the only mass CC available to melee in a game where damage avoidance is the key to survival. I am not sure what I was expecting but it was definitely better than this.

It looks like what they've done is beat down the little bits that stick out, that make the game unique with creative build combinations. Everything has been pushed through a Uniformizer

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Lol they've made everything more uniform by changing the attack that EVERY melee took?

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Originally Posted by Seph1roth5

Lol they've made everything more uniform by changing the attack that EVERY melee took?

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Uniform as now all the 28/29 feats suck equally. The reason Dire Charge / Mass Frog were taken so often was that they were the only good feats, the rest were terrible with several having bugs that prevent them from working.

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Originally Posted by Seph1roth5

Lol they've made everything more uniform by changing the attack that EVERY melee took?

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Because it was the only decent feat to take, that is why every melee would take it. Instead of adding other viable feats, they made it so every melee now takes the same tier 5 in the same tree. Gee, what choices

horrific decisions

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Originally Posted by Steelstar

Yes, we can!

To start, something specific to Mass Frog: Mass Frog has a known, longstanding issue with its Caster Level that is important when it comes to Spell Resistance checks made when enemies have Mass Frog cast on them. Mass Frog is an Epic Class Feat (much like Favored Enemy feats are Ranger Class Feats). Spells cast from Class Feats use your Class Level for their Caster Level, which means your effective Caster Level for Mass Frog is 10, far lower than you'd need to land the spell on most relevant enemies with Spell Resistance. This is not something we can easily fix without significant reworks to the Spell system or overly-cumbersome background adjusting. The best way to make it effective again is to make it no longer be a Class Feat. That alone isn't the reason it landed in Destinies, but it is a reason we knew it needed to move.

Looking at both of these feats, they are taken way more than most of their Destiny Feat counterparts. Granted, there's a case to be made for "the other Destiny Feats aren't that good, you should bring them up instead"; in the future, we may improve the other Destiny feats but that argument doesn't change the rest of why we wanted to move these two skills. What these two feats have in common is:

1. They are available to any character (provided you have leveled the relevant Destinies once ever)
2. They are AOE, hitting many nearby enemies
3. Their effectiveness in combat is high relative to the amount of investment needed to use them (DCs needed to land them are somewhat low relative to other abilities and/or dumping DCs and relying on the occasional nat-1 is considered a worthwhile use case)
4. They're very often taken on builds whose archetypes do not match the intended archetypes of the skill.

In short, we don't feel it's healthy for the game for this kind (and strength) of ability to be available at the level of investment Epic Destiny feats currently provide, especially as you will no longer be required to complete Destiny Spheres in order to get Destiny feats when this Destiny Pass goes Live. And especially as these two feats seem to be considered mandatory right now on too many builds.

As a powerful Primal Transmutation spell, we felt the new Primal Avatar T5 was a good place for Mass Frog. You must invest in a lot of Primal Avatar (and lock out other T5s) to get it.

As a powerful Martial ability with a Tactical effect (stunning) we felt the new Legendary Dreadnought T5 was a good place for Dire Charge. You must invest in a lot of Dreadnought (and lock out other T5s) to get it.

Will this change affect some builds? Yes, definitely. However, if a build was only being held up by its access to one of these two feats, it wasn't an especially good build to begin with; and again, it's still available to any build that wants to get it out of T5 of those Destinies. It's our hope that this new system has good, accessible abilities for most (if not all) builds, and ideally you'll find a good fit in this new system somewhere to fill the role left by these feats.

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bye bye

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Originally Posted by MistaMagic

So Am I right here in that

Destiny Feats with Min Level 28
Now have Min Level 25

Destiny Feats with min Level 29
Now have Min Level 28

BUT
Destiny Feats with a min Level 26 are STILL lvl26?

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No, the ML 26 ones are the ones with "no min level". The only reason you can't take them before 26 is because you can't take an EDF before 26, but if you *could* take an EDF earlier, you'd be able to take one of them. They're just being changed to be ML22 for consistency, like when you can first get an Epic Destiny Feat. They're basically keeping the same 'tiers' for the feats.

curious how many augment unslot tools the average player will need per main toon to rejig everything they need to for this

I LIKE a lot of this.

The Scion balancing seems really good.

Decluttering by getting rid of the skill feats is also good.

Dropping the ML requirements is good and will add variety to the choices.



BUT STRONGLY DISLIKE the moves with Mass Frog and Dire Charge. These are useful and fun. Players use them because they're on the not-very-long list of things that work anymore. Design wise, lots of things that used to be tactically viable have been winnowed down, and tons of people are using those feats because they're on the very short list of things that work well. That's on the design team and the design teams of the past, not the player base.

So suddenly confining them to high-tier ED tree abilities seems downright punitive, and frankly, a little hostile to the player base.


OF COURSE I want Mass Frog to help get through Baba's Hut instead of +5 to Swim. That's not a problem with Mass Frog though. And you're not getting rid of people using Frog, you're just making clerics play in Primal Avatar.


There's a sort of rock-paper-scissors dynamic to game design. The game is ruined if one party has to go first. Or if one player isn't allowed to throw paper.