DDO Devs, Myopia, and Hiatus

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Originally Posted by jakeelala

They just destroyed what are arguably three of the most creative and fun builds in all of DDO, in one update (Wolves, Trees, and Fury Throwers, with honorable mention to DC throwers). They invalidated (completely, thoroughly, 100%) the AA tree with these changes. They took away any reason to play a druid at all, and any reason to use an entire epic destiny (Primal Avatar).

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All three exploit builds....
And they finally get fixed.
About time.

It's gonna take a while to adjust. Looks like they are trying for balance.
Just like wondrous, caveat emptor.

And my ranger cleric paralyzer is doing just fine,
Why don't you try one of those out?
Silver flame priest in cleric.

I've been saying if the good players took up clerics,
We'd have a better representation,
Instead of mass dps abomination, aka exploit builds.
But I guess that's just power mongering

Let me guess,
You liked them because you were getting away with something,
And now your forced to play like everyone else...

I wouLd double down and say its time to be even more creative,
If you can play by the rulez.

The issue here isn't the imbues: electric, force, paralyzing, terror, etc. arrows. The issue is that ALL of the active abilities in the arcane archer tree were made so you can only use them with a bow in hand. There was no indication this would be the case by the devs on lamannia or in recent years, whereas the imbues have clearly not been WAI for years and the devs forwarned us that they were being nerfed. This is a clear-cut example of poor dev communication - the kind that ruins games.

For those saying that "slayer arrow" has the word arrow in the name, therefore you clearly should know it wasn't WAI. In the thread where they finally made the statement that ranged combat was supposed to work with fury of the eternal; there was widely discussed the popular furyshuriken builds who used slayer arrow as a base. Additionally, if you are hung up about the name thing: final strike (no indication in the name of it being an arrow only attack, labeled since conception with ranged attack just like sniper shot, etc) also doesn't work.

Also, you don't "shoot" a shuriken so if we are going to be hung up on semantics here: sniper shot, head shot, etc. etc. shouldn't work. We can NEVER trust again that these won't be turned in the next update to only function with bows.

The issue here is that the devs straight up knew this was going to happen and decided not to communicate it with us. This is honestly one of the biggest betrayals they've committed over the entire lifetime of the game as far as I'm concerned.
Once again this has absolutely NOTHING to do with the imbues. We are talking about the active shots which have been labeled as WAI with all forms of ranged combat.

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Originally Posted by Morroiel

The issue here isn't the imbues: electric, force, paralyzing, terror, etc. arrows. The issue is that ALL of the active abilities in the arcane archer tree were made so you can only use them with a bow in hand. There was no indication this would be the case by the devs on lamannia or in recent years, whereas the imbues have clearly not been WAI for years and the devs forwarned us that they were being nerfed. This is a clear-cut example of poor dev communication - the kind that ruins games.

For those saying that "slayer arrow" has the word arrow in the name, therefore you clearly should know it wasn't WAI. In the thread where they finally made the statement that ranged combat was supposed to work with fury of the eternal; there was widely discussed the popular furyshuriken builds who used slayer arrow as a base. Additionally, if you are hung up about the name thing: final strike (no indication in the name of it being an arrow only attack, labeled since conception with ranged attack just like sniper shot, etc) also doesn't work.

Also, you don't "shoot" a shuriken so if we are going to be hung up on semantics here: sniper shot, head shot, etc. etc. shouldn't work. We can NEVER trust again that these won't be turned in the next update to only function with bows.

The issue here is that the devs straight up knew this was going to happen and decided not to communicate it with us. This is honestly one of the biggest betrayals they've committed over the entire lifetime of the game as far as I'm concerned.
Once again this has absolutely NOTHING to do with the imbues. We are talking about the active shots which have been labeled as WAI with all forms of ranged combat.

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oh that is alarming, simply because there were already too few active ranged abilities in the game

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Originally Posted by jakeelala

I've just gotten around to confirming that Dev's have in the last update changed every single ability in the Arcane Archer tree to function only with a bow.

Between this and the stealth nerf to wolves and tree builds, why even play this game if you want a challenge or complicated playing mechanics?

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So, why even play this game if you can't exploit non-WAI functionality to make massively OP builds that destroy challenge and trivalize content? If that's how you feel, maybe this isn't the game for you. Build crafting should be done around WAI features. It is more challenging and rewarding, even if the results aren't quite as spectacular.

I think what frustrates me is this: AA is released. People find the bug and makes non-WAI builds and says on forums how AA tree is great. One of the best trees. SSG thinks: people are using AA tree, we have succeeded. When, in reality, the tree is only being used to combine high RoF weapons with features scaled based on lower RoF bows. It is not, as you have said, particularly a good set of features for a bow focused player. (which is the intended design). So the revamp is flawed, but that is obscured by the popularity of the broken builds.

Rather than help them fix the tree to be good for bow focused users, you resist attempts to correct the mistake, because it will damage your pet thrower builds, and rather than stay around to help make bow and thrower better after the errors are corrected, you are quitting.

Sorry your exploit builds got fixed, Jake, and that you don't want to play if you can't use them. I'd rather discuss what can be done to improve bow usage and thrower builds in the game. For bows, some mods to AA or DWS might make sense. For Throwers, they need either some racial trees that synergize with throwers, or a specific tree, maybe in monk ninja spy or a harper style patron tree, or a feat line (similiar to SWF, TWF, THF, and shield master) that can be taken to add value to throwers.

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Originally Posted by DDOTalk71

So, why even play this game if you can't exploit non-WAI functionality to make massively OP builds that destroy challenge and trivalize content? If that's how you feel, maybe this isn't the game for you. Build crafting should be done around WAI features. It is more challenging and rewarding, even if the results aren't quite as spectacular.

snip

Sorry your exploit builds got fixed, Jake, and that you don't want to play if you can't use them. I'd rather discuss what can be done to improve bow usage and thrower builds in the game. For bows, some mods to AA or DWS might make sense. For Throwers, they need either some racial trees that synergize with throwers, or a specific tree, maybe in monk ninja spy or a harper style patron tree, or a feat line (similiar to SWF, TWF, THF, and shield master) that can be taken to add value to throwers.

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People learn to freaking read. The issues he and others (myself included) have aren't the non WAI imbues. It is the active abilities (slayer arrow, true strike, inferno shot, final strike, etc.) and how they have been labeled WAI since conception for shuriken builds AND the fact that there was literally zero dev communication on the matter.

I'm okay with the devs removing attack capabilities they don't find WAI - (though they should detail all their changes - weird Steelstar would document so much but leave these details out if it's intended).
It would be nice if it came at the same time with either new abilities or promise of new abilities specifically towards thrower.
They have talked about adding another faction-type (harper) tree. Throwing in two lanes of thrower active abilities - anything to add variety, options, and bring all combat styles to some level of output balance from heroic to epic is appreciated... though obviously very complex... and sort of tough with the neglected combat styles.

I was hoping during the racial re-balance of two updates ago they might have kicked one new ability per race for everything but shuriken to bring all the other throwers up to task, but now I'm more in favor of a portion of a new faction-tree to give a variety of attacks and kick throwers up a notch.

Also, add whips or polearms. Hasn't been a new weapon-type in a long time. And that Sharar-Kai whip attack needs something. Well - other being referred to as "instant-soulstone-move" in Reaper groups.

DDO is just becoming more and more generic. Homogenization with each class update, with each nerf. Instead they would take a look at all the spells that are in the game and make them useful, they make ruin. Instead of creating new tactic abilities for melees, they add +1 crit range. Instead of offering more build possibilities, they support generic pures. Instead of taking look at some old game systems (i.e. augments), they flood the game with more nonsense. Nothing to see here.

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Originally Posted by jakeelala

This has eliminated the following extremely popular ploys...

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Fixed that for ya.

I think they could have adjusted the AA tree to still work with xbows & throwers--just toned it down. Like halve the imbues or something, & keep the active attacks. I am all for nerfs but not for killing builds/playstyles.

You should join the dirge in the stealthplay community! We were gimp to begin & then got proxy swatted. Like slow food menus were gutted of healthy fats because the fast-food gluttons were needing stomach pumps.

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Originally Posted by jakeelala

Between this and the stealth nerf to wolves and tree builds

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Sorry if this is off topic, but I gotta ask. I'm aware of the nerfs to both shuriken and wolf builds, but what happened to tree builds?

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Originally Posted by Morroiel

People learn to freaking read. The issues he and others (myself included) have aren't the non WAI imbues. It is the active abilities (slayer arrow, true strike, inferno shot, final strike, etc.) and how they have been labeled WAI since conception for shuriken builds AND the fact that there was literally zero dev communication on the matter.

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It's nice when people can read and take the time to be thoughtful about what they read, instead of just knee-jerk reacting to whatever bias and inborn preference they bring to a discussion. I expected more from Aheras (DDOTalk71), but he's been getting smoked by me in kill counts for a long time now using a crossbow, so I understand his pent up frustration.

Morro hit the nail on the head:

I don't care about a new challenge to make a new amazing thrower build. I've been doing for years now, I'm more than up to the task. I have 2 or 3 I was working on pre-Nerf that are still viable, but now I'm pretty much over it. I can't count on the devs to release working abilities or communicate changes in a timely way for me to plan around or build around. Or worse, allow the impression something is staying the way it is for years, and then changing it without notice and without documentation. But WORST of all, eliminate build options without providing new functionality that would allow for new builds to replace the old ones.

There is no plan.
There is no communication.

It's funny how some jonnycomelately's are on here telling me "oh use DWS".

I have builds, in my build thread linked in my sig, of DWS T5 thrower builds. Where do you think you got that clever idea Thrudh? Lord knows you aren't contributing over time to thrower build canon. But thanks so much for the helpful advice.

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Originally Posted by Morroiel

The issue here isn't the imbues: electric, force, paralyzing, terror, etc. arrows. The issue is that ALL of the active abilities in the arcane archer tree were made so you can only use them with a bow in hand. There was no indication this would be the case by the devs on lamannia or in recent years, whereas the imbues have clearly not been WAI for years and the devs forwarned us that they were being nerfed. This is a clear-cut example of poor dev communication - the kind that ruins games.

The issue here is that the devs straight up knew this was going to happen and decided not to communicate it with us. This is honestly one of the biggest betrayals they've committed over the entire lifetime of the game as far as I'm concerned.
Once again this has absolutely NOTHING to do with the imbues. We are talking about the active shots which have been labeled as WAI with all forms of ranged combat.

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All of this

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Originally Posted by jakeelala

I think you're forgetting to actually think about what I'm writing instead of coming in here and rudely accuse me of whining about losing exploits.

There was NO REASON AA stuff couldn't work with throwers or crossbows. There was no reason to nerf fun and interesting builds into oblivion from space because the word "Archer" appeared in the enhancement tree. If DDO had actual, important differentiating qualities to ranged combat, I could see your point. As it stands however, you're basically just making an argument for ultra literal interpretation of the name of a thing in a made up video game about made up fantasy stuff. That isn't what matters. What matters is DDO is, and has always been, about BUILDS.

They just destroyed what are arguably three of the most creative and fun builds in all of DDO, in one update (Wolves, Trees, and Fury Throwers, with honorable mention to DC throwers). They invalidated (completely, thoroughly, 100%) the AA tree with these changes. They took away any reason to play a druid at all, and any reason to use an entire epic destiny (Primal Avatar).

If you want to gloat about some pseudo-exploitative nonsense and feel holier than thou while DDO sheds creative and hard working builder/players go ahead and play the violin while Rome burns. Good luck with that attitude and have fun holding down your right mouse button and not really ever doing anything else.

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Precisely nail it! THIS is what the DEVS should do , Devs should give a **** about if it being WAI or Exploited build options, what makes DDO so good is first and foremost its combat (live action ) and equally important the choices in builds .
I totally agree with the OP , DDO is a fun and exciting game because of options to build your toon. Give players prefer ranged combat to have more build possibilities, give us feats or enchantments that gives chance to throw multiple thrown weapons ( like daggers, throwing axes, throwing hammers, darts, etc..) base on stat
and active attacks similar to Shadow Lance that throw x (arrows/bolts/throwing weapons) base on stat mod.

Thank you OP for posting this thread ! +10. Good post!

While shuri builds aren't ruined as Jake claims, these unannounced changes to the Arcane Archer tree do reduce it to "bows only". Given that bows are a poor DPS outside of Manyshot, it essentially makes the Arcane Archer tree a newbie trap. Why put 30 or 40 APs into a tree to get T5 or Capstone for something that's only going to provide mediocre damage output at best? There are many other ranged builds that put bows to shame. Mech rogues, BE Arties, shuriken builds, etc. Hell, you can probably roll a Kensai Swashbuckler thrower that puts out more overall damage than an Arcane Archer.

Secondly, if the Arcane Archer tree is for bows only, where's the shuriken only tree? Throwing axe tree? Throwing dagger tree? Don't forget throwing hammers. They need a tree, too. :rolleyes:

Jake may be acting overly dramatic about the change, but he's 100% right in stating that it reduced build diversity. DDO's build diversity is the best thing it's got going for it so it seems like doing anything to reduce that in a significant manner would be a bad idea for the long term health of the game.

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Originally Posted by LT218

While shuri builds aren't ruined as Jake claims, these unannounced changes to the Arcane Archer tree do reduce it to "bows only". Given that bows are a poor DPS outside of Manyshot, it essentially makes the Arcane Archer tree a newbie trap. Why put 30 or 40 APs into a tree to get T5 or Capstone for something that's only going to provide mediocre damage output at best? There are many other ranged builds that put bows to shame. Mech rogues, BE Arties, shuriken builds, etc. Hell, you can probably roll a Kensai Swashbuckler thrower that puts out more overall damage than an Arcane Archer.

Secondly, if the Arcane Archer tree is for bows only, where's the shuriken only tree? Throwing axe tree? Throwing dagger tree? Don't forget throwing hammers. They need a tree, too. :rolleyes:

Jake may be acting overly dramatic about the change, but he's 100% right in stating that it reduced build diversity. DDO's build diversity is the best thing it's got going for it so it seems like doing anything to reduce that in a significant manner would be a bad idea for the long term health of the game.

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You say drama, I say 4 years of time and effort into this game helping people play a combat style that no one wanted for 4 years. But thanks for the support in any case. I would truly be first in line to make builds if they did something about throwing as a combat style, outside of shuriken.

Shuriken are still playable, but for end game reaper it's simply irresponsible compared to a proper xbow build at this point.

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Originally Posted by jakeelala

Shuriken are still playable, but for end game reaper it's simply irresponsible compared to a proper xbow build at this point.

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http://i.imgur.com/p8aeBoI.jpg

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Originally Posted by Morroiel

The issue here isn't the imbues: electric, force, paralyzing, terror, etc. arrows. The issue is that ALL of the active abilities in the arcane archer tree were made so you can only use them with a bow in hand. There was no indication this would be the case by the devs on lamannia or in recent years, whereas the imbues have clearly not been WAI for years and the devs forwarned us that they were being nerfed. This is a clear-cut example of poor dev communication - the kind that ruins games.

For those saying that "slayer arrow" has the word arrow in the name, therefore you clearly should know it wasn't WAI. In the thread where they finally made the statement that ranged combat was supposed to work with fury of the eternal; there was widely discussed the popular furyshuriken builds who used slayer arrow as a base. Additionally, if you are hung up about the name thing: final strike (no indication in the name of it being an arrow only attack, labeled since conception with ranged attack just like sniper shot, etc) also doesn't work.

Also, you don't "shoot" a shuriken so if we are going to be hung up on semantics here: sniper shot, head shot, etc. etc. shouldn't work. We can NEVER trust again that these won't be turned in the next update to only function with bows.

The issue here is that the devs straight up knew this was going to happen and decided not to communicate it with us. This is honestly one of the biggest betrayals they've committed over the entire lifetime of the game as far as I'm concerned.
Once again this has absolutely NOTHING to do with the imbues. We are talking about the active shots which have been labeled as WAI with all forms of ranged combat.

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All descriptions should be clear what they apply to and don't apply to. This was difficult for a long time with TWF and handwraps. They had to go back and specifically say "does not work with handwraps" or "does work with handwraps" and so on. With SWF and swash, some abilities work with a buckler/orb some work only with an empty off hand.

Any ranged abilities should specifically state if they are limited to certain weapon types or exclude specific weapon types.

I would say that, in general, however, I expect that most AA features should only work with bows. BE features only work with crossbows. Although for BE it says this in all the descriptions. Rogues have some features that work with all 3, some with just throwers and xbows, some with just xbows. They are pretty explicit there too. In AA such descriptions are either absent or vague. I think it is fair to expect that any ability that doesn't state a limitation doesn't have one. SSG should clarify and it is unfair to impose limitations and not document them in the release notes or in-game descriptions.

If AA is going to work with other weapon types for the active attacks, that is fine, but they should do something like mechanic tree where it is X for all weapons and X+Y for bows. Mechanic tree often gives a benefit (like damage) for all, and then a better benefit for repeating Xbows, and then an even better one for non-repeating. Why not match the benefit with the RoF and the weapon type focus of the tree? Rather than Bow or go home?

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Originally Posted by DDOTalk71

Sorry your exploit builds got fixed, Jake, and that you don't want to play if you can't use them. I'd rather discuss what can be done to improve bow usage and thrower builds in the game. For bows, some mods to AA or DWS might make sense. For Throwers, they need either some racial trees that synergize with throwers, or a specific tree, maybe in monk ninja spy or a harper style patron tree, or a feat line (similiar to SWF, TWF, THF, and shield master) that can be taken to add value to throwers.

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It's not an exploit if the devs know about it and dont change it. It's a mislabeled mechanic. Deal with it.

I stated very clearly: I dont give a **** about a single build being nerfed, I care that an entire type of build (builds, actually) has/have been wiped out, and it was not communicated, discussed, or in any way alleviated by new interesting mechanics being added. This was 100% devs listening to squeaky wheel tryhards who don't like getting outgunned by throwers and making a huge but predictable tactical error. No one was leaving the game over throwers before, but some might now. Not just because they liked playing FoTW throwers, but because they see the devs use little discretion and hamfisted decision making when it comes to balance, and there's no predictability to their decisions.

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Originally Posted by LT218

Secondly, if the Arcane Archer tree is for bows only, where's the shuriken only tree? Throwing axe tree? Throwing dagger tree? Don't forget throwing hammers. They need a tree, too. :rolleyes:

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Yeah, can't have a tree that's narrowly focused without also having focused trees for every other conceivable option! I guess this means that Vanguard also needs to work with runearms, orbs, and offhand weapons! Even though there's a perfectly functional Ranger tree that works with all melee and all ranged right next to it! All the benefits in the Mechanic tree should apply with bows, thrown weapons, and melee weapons! Thief acrobat only has staff! That's just wrong!

The fact that literally every ability in the tree says it's a RANGED ARCHERY ATTACK and included the word ARROW wasn't enough of a clue for you that working with anything other than ARCHERY and ARROWS wasn't WAI?

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Originally Posted by Morroiel

People learn to freaking read. The issues he and others (myself included) have aren't the non WAI imbues. It is the active abilities (slayer arrow, true strike, inferno shot, final strike, etc.) and how they have been labeled WAI since conception for shuriken builds AND the fact that there was literally zero dev communication on the matter.

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Settle down. He never made that distinction, so there was no reading comprehension fail on my part. So your personal attack is invalid. The only thing I, apparently, failed at was mind reading, since Jake didn't state any of what you said above. Unless I should know that your post and his are connected. Because you aren't the same poster. So why should I make that connection?

Hmmmmm...