Do you know how fortification works?Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow
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Do you know how fortification works?Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow
Yes. The gulf in the difference in damage taken is way too large. Melee absorb 10s of thousands of points of damage and do comparitively little damage in return. Casters and ranged are far too safe at distance and their damage is generally quite a bit higher. And they can outrun the bad guys while still doing that damage should things get up close and personal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Powerhungry
This is the largest single aspect of balance that is out of whack.
Reaper champs can bypass fort. Any amount. From 10% to 1000%. Most players are doing good to bypass 50% of the monsters fort. This makes no sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Helmet
I've decided to stop playing the game entirely now as a result of this. Just deleted the client off my machine, and it will be at least another year or two before I even consider trying it again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow
The expansion pack will not tempt me either. So SSG will not be getting any funds from me for a long time.
When your groups are filled with warlocks only, and they can take all the aggro of an epic reaper 1 skull quest and survive the onslaught and the you, a so-called exploit build with the best gear possible, high resistances, high ac, high prr/mrr, high saves, heavy armor, and a sturdy build that focusses alot on defenses, are getting one-shotted with simple non-crit melee hits doing about 1000 damage a shot: Its just stupid and ridiculous. I get that reaper is meant to be a challenge, but its not a challenge, its just a load of random rolling nonsense. The reapers themselves are hardly a problem, its the mobs (not even champs, just regular mobs) doing 1000 damage on a standard melee swing.
This game is totally broken in my opinion, not just melee.
The stupidness of the decision that level 18 and 19 quests not allowing level 20 players on reaper to enter is beyond me.
The fact that named loot is mostly useless now, and SSG has been quoted to say that fixing this would require unsurmountable work aka "we won't fix this", another ridiculous concept beyond my logical comprehension which just discards all reasons to try get named loot for your toon.
And then SSG just adds insult to injury by announcing racial past lives, another carrot on a stick aka hamster wheel for people to roll more warlock lives? What a fat joke.
I get the feeling that SSG just no longer places any considerable thought into the game any more and that their leadership has become significantly misguided as to what is making the game fun to play.
Development efforts going into new content may seem cool for some players as new content gets introduced, but ffs, just fix the **** that isn't working first, jeeslike.
I mean, still, the ladder bug, after how many years??? You cannot possibly tell me they have architected their code that each ladder in the game requires fixing separately???
I could carry on for ages about how many things in the game require attention, but I've wasted enough time and hating on this game, time for me to find something to play thats fun and rewarding and logical, and not just an endless grind on a warlock.
I used to really love this game, but now I can go so far as saying as: I hate it now and will be finding something else to spend my time and money on.
As much fun as I've had playing with friends I've made in this game, I won't be returning for a long time as a result of the uningenuitive way the developers have tackled systematic game progression.
I stand (well, I'm sitting) corrected.Quote:
Originally Posted by AzB
On the OP topic I have found fun play in melees with a heavy cc component. Monk and fighter to be specific. On fighter I am currently enjoying a pdk great axe kensai up to capstone, and tier five. Stalwart defender up to 2nd core and tier 4. Enough harper for know the angles. Picking most of the heavy armor feats and tactics feats slash spec line and 2handed line cleaves stunning blow and improved trip. Second lifer with most ed's filled. In epics he can self heal ok. Not strong enough for reaper or soloing l.e. but good in a party on that setting with solid gear. I think Gear may be the issue that sends most melee builds on the daily and reincarnate path. With proper gear and use of tactics feats and game play most quests can be soloed on EE some will require having a healbot hire parked in safety for emergencies and mistakes for me.. In a good or guild group I think it becomes a very viable cc and dps addition. I dont think he will ever solo LE slavers or high level low skull reaper quests as easily my warlock though.
Its just the simple fact that melee do not bring anything to the table that ranged do not bring easier at a lower resource cost. In matter of fact, properly built ranged characters will get similar levels of defense statistics, while being ranged, as melee. Further, trip and stun are terrible cc options when compared to their competitions, para arrows, holds, webs, dance, sonic burst, and flat out death spells. At bare minimum the cds on trip and stun need to be dropped to 3 seconds or so to compare with sorcs casting cds, and melee dcs need streamlining. As it stands now, melee toons are easily the most gear intensive for the least reward in the game.
imo melee is balanced.
imo casting is pretty much balanced (except for shiradi, though to what extent and etc idk exactly, i dont think much about it anymore).
imo ranged is what is causing balance issues between character archetypes in this game. the reasons are obvious, but it doesnt matter because the cause of the issue was an unintended snafu that was legitimized.
i dont think r10 scales in melees favor, and i dont think reaper was executed the absolute best way possible, but in all honesty melee players have never been happy unless they were very dominant in what i consider poorly balanced eras of ddo. the conclusion that i feel is most accurate when assessing the melee in this game, is that in and of itself, the biggest problem with the playstyle is not the design of it or the content, but the people who play it.
Ok, lots to work with here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow
This is a difficult thing. To start with the word 'enjoy' is of course very subjective. One of the largest barriers to this enjoyment is, IMO, the game mechanics and the 'advice' the game gives to new players. Are you aware that there is an NPC on Korthos Island who tells new players that moving in combat is a bad thing? Yes indeed, here we have an NPC designed to give valid play advice to brand new players who actively lies to them and tells them to act contrary to how the game actually works. This should have been corrected years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow
Yes, high DPS is always desired. But high DPS has never been coupled with the ability to take a hit. So here we must agree with the OP, whilst also wondering what his point is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow
This has not been my experience. Sure, some melee builds are not typically as BYOH capable as a lot of other melee builds, but that does not make them 'very, very needy.' It makes them 'party members.'Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow
Nice. And characters w/o ranged feats should be just as valid as those who did buy those feats? The game is nothing if not an exercise in trade-offs. No character can be all things at all times. Those who bought ranged Feats will be good at ranged damage, and those who bought melee Feats will be good at melee damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow
So players who didn't invest in areas of particular strength should be just as effective in those areas as are players who did not so invest?Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow
I am not sure I am understanding you correctly.
....and several types of monsters (and player abilities ...which more monsters could get if the Devs wanted them to) can bypass it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Helmet
There are some changes I think that should be made to ranged weapon damage and Warlock damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by AzB
Or rather certain monsters should be resistant or immune, under certain conditions.
Deflect arrows, protection from missiles spell, perhaps doing more damage within melee range to someone holding a bow. Maybe another monster being a tower shield bearer (and making tower shield do a lot of DR vs ranged. Things like that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_one_dwarfforged
Yes.. I had meant to say more about "the mindset: of melee players in my OP..... ;)
I am a Ranger fan. And in awe of Warlocks...
I am a tactics and stealth fan. A Shadowmage Fan... etc.
I am definitely not a fan of charge, hit one button, curse my hireling/player Cleric fan. (you Haste me, you heal me, and since there's no trap here, you Rogue, hold my cape... I'm going in... !)
A lot of these guys do not deserve much sympathy.
But I do see their arguments.
and I am frustrated that my Rangers have to range in any difficult content and cannot enjoy the other half of their feats...
I am not a fan of kiting. Or of any of my characters having to run in fear from every melee swing of a monster.
That just isn't fun to me.
Plus I want to be able to play any class and enjoy it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Niminae
The "needy" part has many meanings. but to avoid problems, let's just stick with needing healing from others.
The feat thing. Of course someone who invests should do better.
But we have a situation now where, "your class is proficient with all martial weapons, yet you must never consider using any you have not further invest in, because other players will laugh at your uselessness."
... that just ain't right IMO.
and contribute to the problem by not giving melee characters another option to use when it would otherwise make sense for a warrior to use a ranged weapon, for example.
What is the point of being trained to use a weapon..... and not being able to use it?
I am not proposing a fix here. Just stating a problem IMO.
I really don't know how to fix things at this point with that one.
This problem (like most others) was caused by power creep. I do not believe I saw such a problem in table top D&D. (although someone is sure to tell me I am wrong on this one too....)
It's interesting to me that monsters have to stop and stand still while casting/ranging. And ranged critters weapons arc through the air at a speed that I can step out of the way of. While I get to Legolas around the battlefield casting spells or using a ranged/thrown weapon that shoots like a laserbeam. Also interesting that my fighter can throw a weapon for enough damage to make it worth carrying, but melee critters chasing a ranged/caster don't bombard them with handaxes that shoot like lasers. Might be interesting to see enemy archers and casters coded to kite as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by AzB
A good dm in pnp dnd would have fixed most of these things along the way by discouraging min/max and never allowing power creep to get out of hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow
I remember one campaign where we had a fighter getting ridiculous with his min/max concentrating on nothing but his a/c and dps. No other skills or abilities. Suddenly, his life became more and more difficult as he was forced to realize the game was about role playing and many of those other skills came in handy. Helped along by the dm, of course. ;)
Now ddo is a video game and a great deal of those other skills are worthless, and AI is not up to the task of replacing a thinking human being. But quite frankly, I think the devs have dropped the ball by not using thier imagination to use tbe tools they have at hand to stop some of the cheese.
justmyonionheadedopinion
Also, in PnP if you face off against an enemy using the same weapons as you are, say like a longbow, they don't employ a completely different rules system. In fact if they were a pc class you could expect an almost fair fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by AzB
This is certainly true in higher level epic elites, where the difficulty of the game demands specialization and the game punishes anything other than that. But a build can be more general and do fine in HE, where the quests aren't as stupid. If you run in epic you are just saying,"I'm not concerned with fighting L80 kobolds to evict a used LLama dealer so that I can get a hat with a slightly better Int bonus."Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow
Very important topic for the playerbase.
Hard to stay classy and not be ****ed off about it all...
Which is why there are 100+ such threads about this.
Or more
For anyone who wants to build a Melee to cap and feel useful these days, please don't. Save yourself the wasted time.
This is seriously good advice, don't fall into this boring trap thinking to put a magic spin on it.
Because you will find a lot to be angry about.
Because anything you think you can do, Kiters do better.
Warlocks do better.
And you will be straight up filler.
At endgame in every group you're in, 3 Warlocks will have already decided that they don't mind carrying your ass, and if they didn't you wouldn't be there.
Because you might be Uber, but you can't tank for ****.
Because you might be tanky, but no you still can't tank for ****.
And because you run slow as molasses in Risia, and you shrine occasionally.
No one cares how well you've built your toon. There is no specific place in the group where running
up and tapping things with your stick is a necessity, or even a good idea.
If it comes down to a meticulously constructed Fighter monk, with a hint of pally (if you're into that =/ )
Versus a cookie cutter Warlock
So long as the b a s t a r d can shine through, they're picking the Warlock.
You would be a fool not too. It's not hyperbole it's just true.
Here's some more
There really should never have been a time where any other playstyles (especially casters) could eclipse Melees for tanking,
and the proof was in the pudding when Warlocks were the ones tanking Legendary Elite Sorjek.
Of course not the pally... he was dead a long time ago.
The fighter?
Please.
No, it was the Warlock, and with relative ease,
turtling with no fail intimidates like a champ, with next to no trade offs in terms of dps.
Speaking of deeps? Who does it better than Johnny Fury-Cannon.
Serious, in the absurd post-modern DDO, those are the 2 people completing your runs for you.
Next time your on top of Tempest's Spine, show some gratitude. They definitely could have done it without you.
And I love it
The Warlock express was an amazing ride to 30 and I can't wait to do the same when dragonborn rolls out.
:):p:)
Melees have only 2 ways to cc mobs dire charge and lay waste.
Both need a high investment to work properly, require a hit roll, mobs have a chance to save, last just a few secs, lots of mobs are immune, lay waste have a long cooldown.
With the fact you need to be in close range to use those abilities, in higher skulls this is the main problem.
Are we just talking end-game here? I just did three melee lives (pally, barbarian, fighter/monk) soloing r1/2 in heroics and ee in epic. It was lots of fun. Sure, no where near as strong as my warlock lives, but in many ways more enjoyable.
With this game you just have to take it for what it is. It's not balanced. It never was, and it's only gotten worse. It is however a lot of fun. And IMO it's generally been more fun when you try to make things work that are hard.
If anything reaper is the most fun on a melee. On a warlock you basically do the same thing on reaper as you would on normal. On a melee it involves some real tactics and quick reactions. I'll actually get some adrenaline and an increased heart rate during a good reaper fight on a melee. I love my lock and all, but sometimes it's a snooze.