Zerging

Zerging represents doing the quest as fast as possible. Also means ignoring everythying else except getting to the end goal. Involves mostly being invisible, hasted and taking care of yourself along the way to the final goal.

New players like to explore the dungeons and take encounters slowly and safely. The zerger will rush ahead, either kill everything, aggro everything or leave everything behind, finish the goal and exit the dungeon. This may cause grief for the rest of the party that stays behind and wants to explore.

A zerger will not come back for your soulstone and tow you to the shrine. A zerger will not explain the quest to you. A zerger will not care for the optional fights, chests or dungeon exploration unless they are necessary. All of these actions highly conflict with new and inexperianced players.

An idiot will cause a Red Dungeon Alert and die. A zerger will cause a Red Dungeon Alert only when he knows that he can ignore it safely.

I need to zerg to the bathroom brb. :)

Slaughter with confidence and efficiency.

And it really must be a first. Zerging is starting to mean the very professional completion of a quest without actually interacting with the quest in more than a minimal way to maximize XP/minute. As a TR, seeing the toons that take apart normally challenging quests in minutes can be impressive. While for a new player, I'm sure it is just confusing. But when I started, and there were lots of new and first life toons on the server the "no zerging" instruction in an lfm was very much an instruction to the newest players not to just charge into a mob/boss/trap filled quest causing a wipe. The noob zerg involves running rapidly through a quest without knowledge, the professional zerg involves running rapidly through a quest with a great deal of knowledge. Why the same word is used for both is fascinating.

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Originally Posted by Tusket

Why the same word is used for both is fascinating.

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It's that exception that proves the rule thing. It has both uses in DDO, because 1 of those uses is ONLY used here, and the other is the widely accepted definition since 1998.

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Originally Posted by Vestriel

The second big reason new/casual players dislike zergers is that when they zerg successfully, they leave nothing interesting for the rest of the party to do. It's not much fun to walk through an empty quest behind a zerger who already killed everything and solved all the puzzles etc. Most people prefer to play a game rather than have someone else play for them.

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The toons I like to zerg on are generally those whose most effecient fighting style is to kill masses of mobs in one cast. Its not mana effecient to cast an implosion or energy burst or divine wrath on a couple of mobs. Run through them until you get to a choke point with a lot of mobs, then kill everything with one energy burst, maybe throw a commet fall on top of it to kill anything that is left. Now you kill 15 mobs with one or two casts instead of 15 mobs with 7 or 8 casts. So it becomes a matter of effeciency...its more effecient to round em up. If you want to contribute, the best way to do that is to help round em up into a tight ball :)

People use the word zerg to describe players that are do not conform to another players way of playing.
I put people in to 1 of 3 category's (Can|Cant|Wish they could) question is where you stand.

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Originally Posted by Eth

I was always a bit puzzled about the way zerging is used in DDO.
Seems like most view it as running something as quickly as possible, which is not what it seems to mean in other games though.

For example in urban dictionary it is described as follows for MMOs:

"Nowadays term zerg is used in mmo games to describe force consisted of large group of lower level players (often with only basic equipment) who use numbers rather then strategy to defeat the enemy, therefore requiring no skill. This tactics is commonly known as zerging."

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Well - the DDO Zerging doesn't follow the definition literally - but if you look on the wider picture it's not that different.

If you take a higher level of abstraction - Starcraft's strategy to use zerglings have one ultimate goal - win the game / crush your enemies as soon as possible from the start.
In that aspect DDO's Zerging is the same - you play through quests to finish them ASAP to maximize your XP/min output.

Zerging is simply what less experienced players conceive people knowing a quest in and out doing. Oh yeah, and possibly people who think they have that knowledge but fail miserably :)

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Originally Posted by kanbeki

What does it mean to you? and as a side question why are newer players/casual players so heavily opposed to what they consider zerging. I'm interested in hearing about what is and what is not considered zerging from different sides of the player base

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Zerging literally means a fast and furious frontal assault with little to no strategy involved what so ever. The term comes from Starcraft where players would quickly create large numbers of weak characters to rush a relatively defenseless and grossly outnumbered opponent who had, in stark contrast, spent the early stages of the game acquiring resources and building an infrastructure.

It's always been used in a negative connotation because it's completely devoid of strategy. Rush in and overpower with brute force. In most games this tactic isn't very effective because it requires an unsuspecting opponent or extremely weak AI that never improves from a clueless developer.

DDO has extremely weak AI and the many years it has continued to exist unchecked demonstrates that Turbine is clueless as to what to do about it. The best strategy in DDO is no strategy at all. Run in face first, kill stuff, move on. There's less than a handful of places in the entire game where a group needs to even slow down and think twice before running in. Because of this, the game has been reduced to its lowest common denominator. Max offensive power combined with the largest slop buffer (HP) attainable is the build of choice across the board.

I don't blame the players. It's like bell surfing for ED XP, it's entirely Turbine's fault. They require 16 MILLION XP to cap all destinies. They make a couple of quests where you can literally run right in and fight the end boss directly. Of course people are going to bell surf. Turbine slops a giant pile of XP on your plate and tells you to eat it all or you won't get desert. Of course you're going to feed it to the dog when they aren't looking.

Yet the question arises, if everyone spends all their time avoiding playing the game so that they can instead quickly progress their characters, when do we actually play the game? Sadly, for DDO, the answer is never. All face roll, all the time.

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Originally Posted by Qnevven

Well - the DDO Zerging doesn't follow the definition literally - but if you look on the wider picture it's not that different.

If you take a higher level of abstraction - Starcraft's strategy to use zerglings have one ultimate goal - win the game / crush your enemies as soon as possible from the start.
In that aspect DDO's Zerging is the same - you play through quests to finish them ASAP to maximize your XP/min output.

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Well but zerging always involves huge amounts of cheap replacable things to achieve that goal, which is just not the case in DDO. If you know Starcraft - zerglings only cost 25 minerals, they are the cheapest (producable) unit in the game ;)

I think in DDO it's just a bit the other way round. The high quality player just gathers up the whole dungeon and kills all the poor zerglings with a few blows *g*

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Originally Posted by brickwall

People use the word zerg to describe players that are do not conform to another players way of playing.
I put people in to 1 of 3 category's (Can|Cant|Wish they could) question is where you stand.

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I'm a mix between this (wish they could) and the faster/slower.

I consider anyone who can move through quests faster/more efficiently than me to be a zerger. I'm an aspiring zerger :), meaning I keep working on being able to run the quests more efficiently. I'm good at survival, and I can even plow through many quests like a steamroller. But every now and then I get in a group with what I consider a true zerger and I'm just amazed at the way they move through the quest.

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Originally Posted by Juduss

To my understanding, zerging can be most simply described as getting through from quest beginning to completion in the most efficient mannor possible. Drag mobs till they rebound or arrive at a predetermined kill zone. Really only effective when you know a quest well enough to: A) predetermine where said kill zones are, B) what specific gear you need (ie. having{knowing what} a sufficient # of invis clickies is) C) know the map so as to avoid taking any "long ways around" D)probably some stuff I'm not thinking of ATM.

I believe newer players don't like this for lots of reasons, such as they want to do something really weird like, *gasp* explore a new environment. So they join or put up an lfm, then some TR toaster enters the quest and finishes it in a flash, leaving the new people A) bewildered about what just happened & B) saddend that any further time spent in the quest yields no rewards (no ransack/onslaught/trap bonous), and disappointed that they didn't even get to see the boss, let alone play with it.

Yes, I said play.
While some people get the most enjoyment out of crushing content in as dominant a manor as possible, others like to poke around, explore and experience what they (may have) paid for.

Also an (I feel) often overlooked situation is that non-VIPs often have limited access to content, and may be more interested in maximizing xp/quest than xp/min. So they put up an lfm and someone joins & zergs it "doing them the favor of completing it fast" and leaves the poster annoyed at not getting the amount of xp they expected or needed from a run with complete opts/ ransack/ etc...

Obviously these are situations that could've worked out better with sufficient communication, but that's a whole 'nother thread ;)

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now i dont mind zerging because i do it quite often or am behind another one. Now if i do know someone is new in the party i might hang back with them and clean up the stragglers that are left behind or rubberband. I dont mind doing either or i just keep up with the zerging.


honestly i think if more people knew zerging when its going to happen they wouldnt mind it so much. i think what ****es them off most is not being able to join in the fun or its too fast for them. some really love it because it can be fun and fast.

not every zerging moment will be good either. a lot of zergers fail as well because they get more then they can handle.

Personally, I dislike zerging. I like to take time and enjoy the quests, even if I have done them a thousand times over through the years. No breakable goes unbroken when I'm around :3

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Originally Posted by arkonas

not every zerging moment will be good either. a lot of zergers fail as well because they get more then they can handle.

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I have a pro-zerger bias (My Zerg definition is doing the quest efficiently).... but I would refer to the above as a failed zerg attempt. Dying, wiping out, running back to hide behind the cleric are not efficient ways to move through the quest. To use a basketball analogy, you can't have a dunk where the ball doesn't go through the hoop. A missed bucket means a missed dunk. Not being able to do the quest efficiently means the quest was not done efficiently.

All of that said... I agree 100% that some zerg ATTEMPTS end quite poorly. The DDO equivalent of hold muh beer.

Zerging, or completing the quest in a minimal amount of time works fine when everyone in the group either can do it well or can do it well enough to at least keep up and stay out of trouble. When some of the group try to zerg and can't manage it, that leads to reduced xp and/or resource consumption. The ugly is when a zerger joins, takes off, is no support to the rest of the party, and lets the party deal with dungeon alert.

As long as the LFM states clearly what is expected and the joiners know what they are joining, there is plenty of room for all types.

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Originally Posted by csivils

I have a pro-zerger bias (My Zerg definition is doing the quest efficiently).... but I would refer to the above as a failed zerg attempt. Dying, wiping out, running back to hide behind the clerics skirt are not efficient ways to move through the quest. To use a basketball analogy, you can't have a dunk where the ball doesn't go through the hoop. A missed bucket means a missed dunk. Not being able to do the quest efficiently means the quest was not done efficiently.

All of that said... I agree 100% that some zerg ATTEMPTS end quite poorly. The DDO equivalent of hold muh beer.

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exactly what i was talking about was both failed zergers or ones who do it right. i wont say this is for all to start doing because for some its not fun. that is ok. i think more of them would be happier if we let them know we are zerging. Either they will stay behind, drop or keep up. which is all good choices. play the style that fits best to your abilities.

Doing the quest fast and efficient. For me it is all about earning XP, favor, TP, and end rewards. No deaths. Repeat, NO DEATHS.

I prefer to skip optionals. I despise red DA, so I stop and kill stuff. I despise DA in general, but I consider it part of the game, just like the broken ladder animations or the silly benches near rest shrines that you cannot sit on nor will your character get smart and climb over them. Your character will just be stuck on them if you don't jump.

I won't mind running a quest nice and slow if someone is new to the game and speaks up.

It mostly does not pertain to me anyway as I mostly solo so I can plod or zerg.

I define zerging in DDO to mean completing quests in a fast and efficient manner, prioritizing speed over everything else, and if no greater completion time can be achieved, increasing the xp/minute by getting more xp while the faster members of the party complete the quest.

While an outsider might view a great zerging party to lack any communication, often seeming like a bunch of people running off on their own, each trying to solo the quest, or at least part of it, nothing could be further from the truth. Since people know the content, a lot of the communication is less verbal and more about visual clues. Namely, the direction a character is running. A typical idea is that everyone can handle themselves and someone who's running down a corridor is telling everyone else they've got that side and the rest of the group can go deal with other parts of the quest. For example, there's 3 towers in Chamber of Raiyum that have to be climbed up to get most xp out of the quest. If one person goes up the first tower, everyone else can ignore that tower unless the person's asked for help.

This said, zerging is something most zergers have grown into after learning the content instead of a playstyle one starts out with. This type of play challenges zergers in a way that normal dungeon crawling simply doesn't anymore. A good zerger can complete any quest he can zerg, but the constant need for speed is always there to give them a challenge to overcome, when the quest itself doesn't provide sufficient challenge anymore. A zerger always aspires to beat the best completion time he had in a quest. Of course, with epic destinies added in the expansion, some characters actually have an easier time if they go through the quest as fast as possible to keep their master's blitz up throughout the quest.

Newer people might not like zerging, because it relies on knowledge of content, which they might not have experienced dozens of times already. Also, newer people are likely to have a hard time keeping up with zergers even if they don't stop to fight at all, since zergers tend to be hasted as soon as it becomes possible to be hasted, and using expeditious retreat before that. This has the effect of leaving people without striders or other speed boosting methods in the dust, just running through empty corridors after empty corridors, which isn't even remotely fun.

There's also the zergers-in-training, people who think they can zerg better than they really can who give zergers a bad name. These people make the whole quests more difficult for everyone involved, usually by running ahead, activating the whole dungeon at once, causing red alert, and dying when a zerger would clear the dungeon alert and be on his merry way. Few people enjoy playing with this type of player.

For this soloist it means watching for yellow alert!
1nth