Winners and losers in the expansion

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Originally Posted by sirgog

Winners:


Defensively specced melees in armor. Huge increase in mitigation except in the situation that you massively outgear content.
Rangers and Rogues. Significant damage mitigation for the first time (excluding some niche builds like Dex-based AC pure rogues, which I haven't seen since the cap was 16 anyway).
Melees in general. The instakill nerfs mean your DPS matters outside of corner cases like epic drow and super-high elemental resistances (LOB). After all on Live, even if you somehow did 700 DPS on a melee you'd still be out-performed by a medium-geared first life Wizard in most content.
People that open chests. Serious improvements to random lootgen.
Divines (on the healing side). Between the substantial reduction in damage players take and the SP increases in destinies, the healing aspect of divines will cost a lot less SP.


Losers:

Unarmored melees, especially light monk splashes.
Casters that stick to U9-U13 strategies. (Casters that 'shock horror' do different things will probably still be top of the heap, but not as dominant as they are on Live).
Bards.
9th level spell classes are generally down in power a bit, but not to a ridiculous degree.

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I've read many posts by sirgog over the last two years. He's quite knowledgable about the game, and I certainly hope he's correct about Wizards not being completely nerfed.

Last year I TRed my Ranger to a Wizard due to initial changes in Shroud's blades of death. Ranger just died too much and I wanted a character that could farm gear and be self sufficient. I decided on Pale Master because I am not the most skilled player and need every edge I can get.

I have been leveling the wizard over the last month and looked forward to scroll farming and being "uber". With the epic changes, I have to reconsider what "uber" is (obvious answer: MrCow). I just hope my wizard isn't neutered before I get a chance to play it at cap.

If it's no good, there are other classes to play. These notes are from Beta, so things may change. I do agree that "blanket" immunities are lazy, but with the code being what it is, it's probably easier to do that than have mob casters buff their minions. There's suspension of disbelief ("hey, I'm made of wood and metal and cast spells!"), then there is "mob casters have bottomless sp bars and can hit you from around the corner with Hold Person".

I love the game and agree there needs to be balance between classes. I would just like to see balance between players and mobs.

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Originally Posted by Ape_Man

That's wrong.

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I stated that my assessment was purely based on my particular builds so I was clear that I made no absolute, universally applicable statement. Based on my toons I am correct. I agree that in general this might not be the case.

Most of my unarmoured toons seem to be a little (but not much) better off under the new system. But my three low level ones are worse off.

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Originally Posted by luvirini

Trying to analyze what type of characters are builds are winners and losers. I have had the following thoughts:

Most the changes happen in the epic levels, except the AC and related effects happen also in heroic.

List of probable losers:
Anyone in pyjamas who is not a pure/near pure monk-As other armor types get a buff, the unarmored category gets much harder to get a relevant AC unless you are mostly a monk that thus gets the extra increases for monks.

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likely true.

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AC tanks: you cannot get the near invincibility you had before.

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AC did not work in epic or quests like the epic lord of the blades whereas now it does so this is really a neutral although they will get hit my suspicion is ac tanks can still be pretty close to invincible if build differently.

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Palemasters/necro archmages. The new epic ward makes the bad old days be back where wizards are there for holds only.

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True this is a big nerf.

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Bards: They will fall further and further into a role of buffbot, with the difficulty of getting things like the heal spec epic destiny.

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A bard can get any destiny they want including the exalted angel which is the healing one you speak and they can twist the bard one for better songs if they so desire. The fatesinger destiny adds positive power as well which if you bothered to read it you would know this. Bards do lose displacement which was one of their 5 best spells they had and is a rather big nerf for them.

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Healers: as the tanks will likely take more damage.

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Healing was not really that hard anyway and on epic quests the tanks will take less damage because ac will work there, but on heroic quests they will take more damage so on this point it is mix. Although healers do have to have a devotion item and more items equipped so it limits their gear and build flexiblity a little.
So more hurt then helped.

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Clonks and other melee divines: The stance changes, AC changes and such makes it much harder to melee at same time as you cast.

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Clonks and other melee divines have more difficulty because of item usage, but ac is a mix bag for them as well.

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Caster divines: will get also hurt by the epic ward and with the healing difficulty..

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Yes they will get hurt by epic ward, but I am really unconvinced that healing will be anymore difficult and may in fact be easier if you add the exalted angel to the mix which boost postive spell power.

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Probable neutrals with changes:
Barbarians: They can again get damage migation level armor class, but the cleave nerf and not hiotting always on 2 hurts.

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Shrug melee damage goes up so barbarians are more happy then sad I think.

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Rangers: The AC changes likely hurt as in getting hit more, but likely benefit from the hit probability as many such had hard time hitting the tougher enemies and if range specked from the ranged epic destiny.

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Rangers will still have a hard time hitting with the combat pass changes. Rangers do not really benefit as much from teh destiny system unless they are ranged specced.

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Rogues: the AC changes should benefit them as most rogues should reach reasonable AC and good dodge. But the epic ward will make assainate useless.

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Ac changes help all classes mitigate damage although with the nerf to displacement it is sort of a wash. Assasinate recieves an unwarranted big nerf.

Probable winners:

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Sorcerors: the epic destinies give them more nuking than ever, along with the lower enemy HP on epic quests.

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We still do not know what will be the enemy hp on epic quests other then normal, but yes sorcerors appear to win when combined with the draconic destiny.

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Any melee that did not have top to hit probablity as they will hit a lot more often and can also often get reasonable damage migation with armor.

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Quite the contrary everybody will miss more often.

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(More thoughs and changed ideas likely after actual testing, above is based on earlier beta versions, release notes and other reading)

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You have not read anything on the forums or tested anything so my conclusion here is what you posted here has little to no value, but I was happy to make corrections.

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Originally Posted by JasonJi72

Why are Bards placed in the 'loser' category. Can someone clarify this please?

Does fascinate and song of capering still work, and/or do you need to have an insane dc?

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I am not sure that bards are in the loser catagory exactly, but they are not in the winner catagory. First, off the destinies are very nice for bards specifically: fatesinger, magistrate, shadowdancer, dreadnaught, and exalted angel all work well for various bard builds. There are some really good twistable abilities for bards too so I would say the epic destiny's are a win for bards. Bard healing is about the same through after destinies as they are now, etc. You compare this to for example tempest rangers who arguably do not get a temendous benefit from the destinies.

The nerf to instakills is a bump for bards. Anytime instakills get nerfed bards get a buff. Melee and ranged dps get a bump through this and because bards add to damage and have no instakill themselves they are buffed. Bard ccers greatly benefit because it will no longer be a situation where hey why cc because the wizard or FVS will just instakill right away it will be more of oh man better do some cc because they can not instakill mobs until they are at 50%.

The nerf to displacement is a big nerf for bards. Bard have very few really effective spells specifically: haste, displacement, dancing ball, charm monster mass, and cure moderate wounds mass, and cure critical wounds. Taking one of those away from a bard limits their effectiveness.

Bard healing is a mixed bag because although displacement is gone they do get blur + everyone has an ac increase. In the end though it is probably less then 50% damage reduction between blur + ac so it is a net nerf, but bard healers will still be able to do it with the combination of more spell points devoted to healing and likely better party cc capabilities when you add up all the funky destiny abilities and the obvious increase in interest in cc of one type or another.

In the end Bards probably not winner or losers but the base class needs a couple of useful spell options added and the prestige enhancements added because bards have been losing ground since the level cap was 14 in the gianthold which was the golden age of bards..

there are no winner really.. with the nerf from % to spell power and many of the top casting gear.. arcane an never do as much as it use to.. sigh.. when turbine try to buff all class they end up nerf them all to hell.. lol kinda dramatic..

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Originally Posted by decease

there are no winner really.. with the nerf from % to spell power and many of the top casting gear.. arcane an never do as much as it use to.. sigh.. when turbine try to buff all class they end up nerf them all to hell.. lol kinda dramatic..

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I disagree if you combine the spell nerf with the destinys increase in dps there really is not a nerf and quite possibly a buff. Look at the spell power nerf with draconic destiny for sorcerers and the exalted angel for fvs.

1. Levelling a divine is actually going to be more painful, with party members getting hit a lot more often due to the impact of AC changes on low/mid-level defenses, and the loss of displacement
2. Divine offensive casting at the high end is getting clipped by hard-to-kill (implosion is hurt worst than wail and the others, and unlike arcanes have little backup alternatives)
3. Any generalist divine (including melee focused, as well as those who just mix in a little melee ability) is going to have equipment slot / swapping issues with the changes to spell power -- either that, or suffer a disproportionate damage nerf compared to savants.

So, above level 20, offensive casting is going to be seriously nerfed, and mixing in melee is going to be much more difficult. Oh, but healing is going to be cheaper, so at least they'll be able to throw more heals.

lol

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Originally Posted by Stillwaters

Its higher on a dwarf defender:
Heavy armor = Planetouched LIGHT fullplate (MDB6)
+3MDB dwarf armor mastery
+3MDB fighter armor mastery
+3MDB T3 defender prestige
+2MDB mobility feat
(+2 gtr nimbleness slotted assuming we find epic slots on these armors)
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17 (19)

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T3 defender prestige is only +2MDB for heavy armor, +1 for medium (so if it was mithral) and +3 to tower shields. Additionally the great nimbleness needs to be slotted on BOTH your shield and your armor for it to apply and like i said, there ARE NO EPIC LIGHT PLATES THAT HAVE SLOTS FOR GREATER NIMBLENESS. Again you theorycrafted but your numbers are wrong, you can't get that high of a MDB on even a dwarven fighter and for non dwarven fighters the numbers are even lower. If your light armor builds were investing 24 AP from heroic levels into +6 MDB (or dodge) then it would also be more of a comparison, but plain and simple the feat/AP investment to reach moderately high dodge values for heavy armor are both very class/race specific AND take way more of an investment than a rogue or monk doing the same thing.

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You cannot twist ALL of those!!! lets assume maybe +6% more from ED?

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Yes you can twist all of them if you are a GMoF or Shiradi and do so quite easily. It's 4 total ED abilities, 5 if you include the water stance. All you need is either GMoF or Shiradi selected as your active ED to stack dodge like that. This is for the passive boosts only, the various clickable abilities likely won't be slottable.

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Best case scenario:
a 18rogue 2 monk splash in cloth....
So far you got +15% dodge avg ahead in cloth, and sacrificed nearly ALL PRR% and a fair bit of AC% to boot!!!
Plus your boost takes you to 60% 1/4 of the time anyhow?!!?
I could switch down to MEDIUM/LIGHT armor and accomodate that, and STILL have higher AC and PRR%

Normal scenario:
didnt take rogue (-5%) and only got 3%(-3%) from ED cause you twisted other things...
Total +7% dodge
The other guy is in Heavy armor and a HVY shield!!!

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And your rogue can do signicantly more dps than a heavy armor and heavy shield type build, has evasion and other utility effects as well. Again you are calling for boosts to dodge to create equivalent amounts of mitigation on characters that invest less in defenses and ignoring the other features of the characters on the way there. Those heavy plate/armor builds are getting better mitigation SOLELY because they invested more feats/enhancements in the build for defenses than your typical 18/2 splash and all of your arguments ignore evasion and higher reflex saves for most of the light/no armor builds.

Try to play the builds rather than armchair developer, or at least get your numbers right in possible dodge% for heavy versus light/no armor.

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Originally Posted by orakio

T3 defender prestige is only +2MDB for heavy armor, +1 for medium (so if it was mithral) and +3 to tower shields.

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oops, my bad, I forgot t1 pre didnt add to armor MDB (and its all armor not just heavy): 1 less max dodge so 16% not 17% in HEAVY armor :eek:

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Originally Posted by orakio

Additionally the great nimbleness needs to be slotted on BOTH your shield and your armor for it to apply and like i said, there ARE NO EPIC LIGHT PLATES THAT HAVE SLOTS FOR GREATER NIMBLENESS.

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a) I never used the extra 2% from gtr nimbleness slotted in my comparison. :cool:
b) in my comparison the fighter was using a hvy shield not a tower so its irrelevent having the gtr nimbleness on the shield.
c) he could also be a TWF build losing shield AC and PRR but adding in TWDefense feat and gaining AC and PRR that way.<-- this wont work with monks in wraps.

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Originally Posted by orakio

Again you theorycrafted but your numbers are wrong, you can't get that high of a MDB on even a dwarven fighter and for non dwarven fighters the numbers are even lower. If your light armor builds were investing 24 AP from heroic levels into +6 MDB (or dodge) then it would also be more of a comparison, but plain and simple the feat/AP investment to reach moderately high dodge values for heavy armor are both very class/race specific AND take way more of an investment than a rogue or monk doing the same thing.

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My original point you still cant deny was HEAVY armor (min-max'd) can reach almost the same level as cloth with MUCH higher AC, and PRR than cloth..
Even pulling out ALL the stops (max Earthstance+ED twists) you wont cover the ground you lose.

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Originally Posted by orakio

Yes you can twist all of them if you are a GMoF or Shiradi and do so quite easily. It's 4 total ED abilities, 5 if you include the water stance. All you need is either GMoF or Shiradi selected as your active ED to stack dodge like that. This is for the passive boosts only, the various clickable abilities likely won't be slottable.

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Can you post a build where Cloth is working for mitigation? cause i'm having trouble believing you.

I THINK you are saying it's ok that from lvl 1-23 a heavy armor guy could be equal on dodge over a cloth build, and that in late epic levels (after your twists activate) with MASSIVE investment in switching/twisting 3 or 4 separated destinies it might catch up, but still not enough to make a difference?? and for that reason Cloth isnt broken???? ;)

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Originally Posted by orakio

And your rogue can do signicantly more dps than a heavy armor and heavy shield type build, has evasion and other utility effects as well. Again you are calling for boosts to dodge to create equivalent amounts of mitigation on characters that invest less in defenses and ignoring the other features of the characters on the way there. Those heavy plate/armor builds are getting better mitigation SOLELY because they invested more feats/enhancements in the build for defenses than your typical 18/2 splash and all of your arguments ignore evasion and higher reflex saves for most of the light/no armor builds.

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I used rogue as it was best case scenario for a dodge user (adding +5% more) and I had used best case scenario for heavy armor...
18Rog/2Monk is a DPS build not a defense build, and also would have MASSIVE issues trying to fit all the 3 of the dodge feats.. but I let that slide....

I never talked about Light armor evasion builds which actually turn out ok.. I talked about CLOTH/NO ARMOR!!!! Which used to work well, and be close(ish) to armor builds.

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Originally Posted by orakio

Try to play the builds rather than armchair developer, or at least get your numbers right in possible dodge% for heavy versus light/no armor.

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I have playtested as much as possible during closed beta,
not having time to work on a cloth build going through 4 ED to add in every smidgeon of dodge (including switching to waterstance and losing WAY more defense than it gained:rolleyes:)
And you say I'M the one theory-crafting - i'd love to see you take a toon from 1-25 in cloth :rolleyes:



You originally said it was only possible to get 15% dodge in mithral (read MEDIUM ARMOR) light plate... you were wrong, you can do better in HEAVY ARMOR!!
I originally said that you can reach nigh 19% in heavy armor (I was 1% off, 3% if no planetouched lightplate, EVER, gets a slot for nimbleness)
Not to mention I can ADD mithral or drop an armor category and STILL end up higher on AC, and PRR%, and equal nearly any cloth build on dodge.
Dropping to Light armor I could equal even a minmax'd Dodge specialist,
and retain higher AC and PRR% and gain evasion by splashing 2 monk on a dwarven stalwartIII.

TLDR: Cloth is broke without MUCH more leveling/endgame dodge%, do the math!!

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Originally Posted by sirgog

Winners:


Defensively specced melees in armor. Huge increase in mitigation except in the situation that you massively outgear content.
Rangers and Rogues. Significant damage mitigation for the first time (excluding some niche builds like Dex-based AC pure rogues, which I haven't seen since the cap was 16 anyway).
Melees in general. The instakill nerfs mean your DPS matters outside of corner cases like epic drow and super-high elemental resistances (LOB). After all on Live, even if you somehow did 700 DPS on a melee you'd still be out-performed by a medium-geared first life Wizard in most content.
People that open chests. Serious improvements to random lootgen.
Divines (on the healing side). Between the substantial reduction in damage players take and the SP increases in destinies, the healing aspect of divines will cost a lot less SP.


Losers:

Unarmored melees, especially light monk splashes.
Casters that stick to U9-U13 strategies. (Casters that 'shock horror' do different things will probably still be top of the heap, but not as dominant as they are on Live).
Bards.
9th level spell classes are generally down in power a bit, but not to a ridiculous degree.

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Agree with some points. Defensively specced heavy armour winning not so much but the kensais and other heavy/medium armour wearers certainly are.

The rangers you talk about are pretty much in the minority unless AA's the others are splashes. Though the improvements to light-heavy are long long overdue.

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Originally Posted by luvirini

Probable winners:
Sorcerors: the epic destinies give them more nuking than ever, along with the lower enemy HP on epic quests.

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Wow, big turn around for sorcs!!! It was what, two weeks ago, that you doomsayers said that sorc was dead forever?

And as someone with a defensively speced melee who's *actually played my toon in epics on lamania* I can say they are in GREAT shape. Ok, so I'll get hit a bit more in sins of attrition... I run that once per life to flag... oh the horror! Maybe a few more times to help guildies flag, and I'll have to be healed once per fight instead of twice over the whole dungeon... oh the humanity! Now my AC (and new PRR!) means something in epics. I'll take that trade every day.

And while the displacement thing seems silly and will blow for healing (please consider upping bard healing enhancements, or giving us some stronger mass cure spells), fatesinger rocks and is going to synergize with my AA bard better than I could have possibly hoped for.

People are so short sighted with changes. I don't get it. Adapt, improve, meet new challenges :)

Ok, "hard to kill" is a lazy way of making new challenges, but even that is better than no new challenge.

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Originally Posted by Dolphious

Wow, big turn around for sorcs!!! It was what, two weeks ago, that you doomsayers said that sorc was dead forever?

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Trying to make some kind of point by exaggerating excessively? Fail.

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Originally Posted by Dolphious

And as someone with a defensively speced melee who's *actually played my toon in epics on lamania* I can say they are in GREAT shape. Ok, so I'll get hit a bit more in sins of attrition... I run that once per life to flag... oh the horror! Maybe a few more times to help guildies flag, and I'll have to be healed once per fight instead of twice over the whole dungeon... oh the humanity! Now my AC (and new PRR!) means something in epics. I'll take that trade every day.

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Not everybody wants to make that trade. Glad you do, and good for you, but I don't see how you reporting your personal desires is some kind of evidence of good game design. On the other hand, if everybody (or most folks) shared your desires, it would be a wise economic decision for Turbine to accomodate them.

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Originally Posted by Dolphious

And while the displacement thing seems silly and will blow for healing (please consider upping bard healing enhancements, or giving us some stronger mass cure spells), fatesinger rocks and is going to synergize with my AA bard better than I could have possibly hoped for.

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So great for you. Have fun. I'm sure the changes are great because you're having fun. In fact, the fact that you're having fun must be proof that the changes are great. The rest of us should just go shut up because you're having so much fun!

At the moment:
Winners:
High AB melees (kensei fighters, barbarians)
Healers (more defenses=easier healing)
Moderate AC characters (most)

Losers:
Low AB melees (every one else)
Casters
Bards
High AC characters (epic geared DoS/SD/Acrobat/Monk builds)
Super Low AC, aggro magnet characters (barbarians)

Fair mix here, as long as "Hard to Kill" doesn't stand as it is I'll be optimistic.

I have to agree with Decease: There is no winner. Much like elections boil down to picking the lesser of evils, this update will contain a class that is hit the least. Currently it looks like it might be Sorcs, but I might be perceiving incorrectly.

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Even though there are alot of losers, I think the big one this update is the Acrobat. Much like Update 12 stripped everything unique about Mechanics and applied those features with extra boosts to Artificers, a similar thing has happened with Acrobats. This update has stripped the core features of Acrobats and given them as autogranted abilities to the Grandmaster of Flowers: no knockdown and immunity to slippery surfaces.

So the only unqiue aspect to Acrobats is now the increase speed to quarterstaves and Dex mod to quarterstaff sneak attacks. (Well, there is the continued broken Showtime clicky also...) On top of that, some of the best named quarterstaves are Dex to-hit while all the DR breakers are Str to-hit (unless you slot an Epic Nat Gann). Without giving Acrobats the ability to use Dex or Str when using quarterstaves, there continues to be no consistency with the favored weapon of prestige class (and it appears to be that way until the enhancement changes in a future update, maybe).

Add on to the fact that it appears that the Epic Destiny that Acrobats (and about 90% of the other melees) are being shuffled off to is Legendary Dreadnought. The only upside for the Acrobat in this update is that at least this Epic Destiny is in the same Power Source sphere as the rogue one.

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Originally Posted by sirgog

Defensively specced melees in armor. Huge increase in mitigation except in the situation that you massively outgear content.

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I would rephrase that as "classes that can be defensive melees in armor". Whether they're defensively specialized already seems less important, because apparently anyone unburdened by evasion, centering, or ASF can put on strong armor and get moderately good AC, bringing their miss rate up from 5% to 50%+. But someone who works hard stacking on a lot of additional bonuses only gets a little more protection, not the 95% rate they could shoot for in non-epic live.

In a way, AC-spec people are nerfed: someone who laughed at Suulomades grazing him can't do that anymore. His incoming damage could quadruple in some situations.

The spell Displacement is now self-only.

I found it only about the displacement nerf. So it still remains a bard spell, not hurting my bard, hurting the healer in the group.:)

I still can fascinate with her. Can use otto's irresistable on some mobs if needed. Can self buff very well, and buff the party as well, but can't use displacement on them. Can use manyshot with slaying arrows for a burst dps. Can self heal more than any other non-divine in party. I don't see the bard nerf here... unless if you saw them as buffbots before.:)

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Originally Posted by Yalina

The spell Displacement is now self-only.

I found it only about the displacement nerf. So it still remains a bard spell, not hurting my bard, hurting the healer in the group.:)

I still can fascinate with her. Can use otto's irresistable on some mobs if needed. Can self buff very well, and buff the party as well, but can't use displacement on them. Can use manyshot with slaying arrows for a burst dps. Can self heal more than any other non-divine in party. I don't see the bard nerf here... unless if you saw them as buffbots before.:)

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Bards do a lot of other things besides buffing, but it's certainly one of their core features. Have we really gotten to the point where everyone is so selfish that even the bards don't buff?

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Originally Posted by luvirini

Barbarians: They can again get damage migation level armor class, but the cleave nerf and not hiotting always on 2 hurts.

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WHAT?

You just make a random guess there?

Show me a single barbarian with any AC that gains ANY benefit from AC.

It's simply not gona happen.

My bbn has a freakin -19 penalty to armor class. I have the best epic gear in the game. Even my relatively good AC armor - epic deneith chian - I was always getting hit 95% of time in everything I ran.

Bbns get VERY nerfed in this update.

Nerfs:
-Supreme cleave (massive unjustified nerf no one asked for)
-Ucanny dodge (vs casters and traps as the +6 reflex was nerfed)
-Proxy nerf by not being able to take the better epic feat fighters can take.
Buffs:
- None.
- Ok fine: they get a minor amount of PRR for medium armor, and uncanny dodge is somewhat useful in a pinch vs melee monsters.

Real Winners:

Same who win on live:

- Favored Souls . They solo freakin epic raids. Your class doesn't. What more do i need to say?
- Clerics. Same as fvs minus a bit, but their auras get a pretty large boost and they can gain wings to close the gap some.
- Wiz/Sor (Way too much complaining over nothing imo, they are still the 2nd most powerful class (archtype rather) in the game only slightly behind favored souls/clrs, they do insane damage and have VERY powerful destinies)
- Wisdom Monks (Very powerful epic destiniy, tho it is geared more towards wisdom monks so str monks might not gain as much)

Tanks?
- Only if they actaully put content in tough enough for them to be useful. ATM thats not clear to me. Regardless they stay in that weird zone where they arent wanted on most quests, but are very desired in tough raids.

Neutral:
- Fighters. They can get the epic feats other classes cannot. Plus buffs to some older feats also benefit them more then most. On the other hand, they are a melee class, which is not monk... Thats a serious downside. Ultimately if your fighter gets better or worse depends on your build and how you play it, the potential is certianly there tho at least.

Losers:
All the rest.

I think Artificers are going to be among the winners. The changes to spell amplification will help them achieve stronger results on their evocations with less expenditure to help their smaller SP pools; they won't be the "new guy" any more and Druids will take over the novelty following, making the remaining Artificers more unusual; Their infusions that increase enhancement ratings will be even more useful (higher implement bonuses for casters, AC more relevant for everyone); If they take heavy armour (adamantine warforged) or medium armour then they'll benefit from the new PRR and AC rules; and if they stick with light armour then they have the choice of acquiring evasion at epic levels to help them perform their duties as a trapper. Lots of good news for these guys.

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Originally Posted by Shade

WHAT? You just make a random guess there? Show me a single barbarian with any AC that gains ANY benefit from AC. It's simply not gona happen. My bbn has a freakin -19 penalty to armor class. I have the best epic gear in the game. Even my relatively good AC armor - epic deneith chian - I was always getting hit 95% of time in everything I ran.

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Your barbarian will have plenty of opportunities to achieve very nice AC in the new game. Don't lie. Maybe you won't have epic AC if you swing your eSoS, but you can put that bad boy away and pick up another great weapon and still achieve insanely high AC. Stop whining. Your barbarian just got buffed to high hell with these changes.

Yes, you saw some nerfs. Supreme Cleave is the big one. The changes to Uncanny Dodge are not exactly a nerf. It's not like you need the REF vs. casters/traps anyway. You say you didn't get buffed? I call total BS. Previously, you couldn't mitigate damage at all. Now you can achieve way too much damage mitigation via the free damage mitigation that's being granted to any mook with the changes to AC.

Your post makes no sense. Where is the real Shade?