Help me explain to my guildies why dumping Con is bad

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Originally Posted by sephiroth1084

Oh yeah, I forgot about the days where if someone with Disintegrate shot me, I was dead, guaranteed. More Con and more HP means not dying to Disintegrate!

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Yup. The Paragon Kobold Shamans in EV1 have Heighten, and their Disintegrates hit for roughly 400 points of damage on a failed save. Even on McPhail, who I think has a pretty tasty Constitution Score (So, what, 32 Rage, 34 Ship, 36 Yugo?) -- even with that, I find he frequently fails that save. Their DCs aren't a joke, and I don't know many casters that can survive 2 simultaneous hits of 400 points of untyped damage.

That's just one example, of course - Disintegrate isn't an uncommon spell, but their DCs seem a bit higher than would be expected. For a caster with a lower Fortitude save, I could see many of the mobs my casters shrug off suddenly becoming a PC killer.

three questions:

Are they having fun when they run into trouble?
If yes, no point ruining it. The game is really boring IMO being a huge hp person who steamrolls everything.

Do they play a -lot-?
If no, then you're asking them to shelve their characters (or pay $15), and repeat a bunch of content they've already done with their limited time instead of exploring new interesting stuff.

Do they die often, when just a tiny bit more HP would've saved them, & then complain?
If no, then this topic is silly.

Not everyone has to min/max & take DDO as seriously as forum posters & the elite crowds to enjoy it.

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Originally Posted by Crazyfruit

three questions:

Are they having fun when they run into trouble?
If yes, no point ruining it. The game is really boring IMO being a huge hp person who steamrolls everything.

Do they play a -lot-?
If no, then you're asking them to shelve their characters (or pay $15), and repeat a bunch of content they've already done with their limited time instead of exploring new interesting stuff.

Do they die often, when just a tiny bit more HP would've saved them, & then complain?
If no, then this topic is silly.

Not everyone has to min/max & take DDO as seriously as forum posters & the elite crowds to enjoy it.

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well I had my choice of con over dex questioned, or my not picking mental toughness. they play enough to have mid level characters, something not even i have :P (terrible altoholic that gets bored easily)

Just adventure normally.
Get them up to level 10...then 15 and finally head out to endgame regions

They'll learn a lot, pick up death avoidance skills (Where possible) and, later on, they'll consider grabbing a bit more hp when they roll toons to make their own lives easier.

That's basically how I played my first ranger and wizard. 10 con wandering about in Shavarath. you eventually learn and the game gets a lot easier and a lot more fun.

Thanks to the update that allows people to see hp I think there will be a point where they will realise that it is pretty shamefull to have 1/3 the health of the same class wisley built with CON instead of DEX. Perhaps then they will add a bit more.

If not it won't take long before they get to a level where their low hp will get them kicked from a few groups.

I don't think of it as hit points, but margin of error. PnP is turn based, you can rationalize yourself to victory. DDO is real time, and as such things pop up beyond your control. Lag can be an issue. The larger your margin of error, the better chance you can respond to threats. Side note: AC 40 or less is irrelevant once you hit about level 13, that's an automatic hit at that point. Weapon speed is no factor in DDO, so really every reason to use dexterity is marginalized here.

I had plenty of sadistic DMs, and my philosophy became if you can't kill me I would win. I often won player duels because I could withstand punishment well beyond what they thought possible.

Edit: Mental Toughness is nice, depends on what you are doing though. I wouldn't sacrifice Toughness for Mental Toughness.

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Originally Posted by Boombastic

I tried explaining that to him. the main offender is my RL DM. in pnp its easier and safer to dump con, but in this game, its a hack and slash basically. but he dumped con.....in favor of dex......

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Ah, There's your problem. Another Victim of too much outside information. Sometimes it's easier for people to play this game if they had no PnP background. My first Sorcerer dumped Cha, because in 1e, cha wasn't needed for magic-users... He really didn't make it far.

As for what to do, best thing you can do is to roll up a similar toon, and show them how much better they can be. However, it is also important to remember it is a game, and if they are having fun, don't worry too much about their builds.

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Originally Posted by TheDearLeader

Yup. The Paragon Kobold Shamans in EV1 have Heighten, and their Disintegrates hit for roughly 400 points of damage on a failed save. Even on McPhail, who I think has a pretty tasty Constitution Score (So, what, 32 Rage, 34 Ship, 36 Yugo?) -- even with that, I find he frequently fails that save. Their DCs aren't a joke, and I don't know many casters that can survive 2 simultaneous hits of 400 points of untyped damage.

That's just one example, of course - Disintegrate isn't an uncommon spell, but their DCs seem a bit higher than would be expected. For a caster with a lower Fortitude save, I could see many of the mobs my casters shrug off suddenly becoming a PC killer.

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Circle kiting is your friend. Disintegrate can't hit you if you are moving laterally with respect to the caster.

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Originally Posted by sirgog

Circle kiting is your friend. Disintegrate can't hit you if you are moving laterally with respect to the caster.

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I'd like to replace "can't hit you" with "less likely to hit you".

I've literally spun around a caster as they've begun their animation, been behind them when the spell went off, and still taken full damage/effect from a ray-based spell.

"Tactics" sounds great... in a game that functions exactly as it should. But last I checked, we still have mobs scooting around while tripped, dancing their way *out* of dancing balls, etc.

Also, telling a new caster to get moar HP is normally easier to impart than trying to teach caster vs. caster kiting techniques off the get-go.

Wizard = max con/ max int...anything left into str imo...also if there pumpin up dex on a wizard inform them that there is a feat called insightful reflexes that adds ur int mod to ur reflex save instead of dex...gl wit all that bro

You could add that increasing CON will help their Concentration checks.