Nothing is Overpowered

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Originally Posted by MaxwellEdison

Nerf nothing.

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I oppose.

Nerf every player class so we get more challenging game overall.

More challenge ==> More fun. Right?

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Originally Posted by stille_nacht

SoS is overpowered at least in a "relative to every other two hander in existance" (i mean, its over 20 dmg/swing higher than a +5 holy burst of GEOB)

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Is it overpowered? Or is it extremely rare and a pain in the butt to get and thus the reward is equal to the effort. I don't see everyone running around with one, so I would say it is not overpowered but a rare and powerful piece of equipment.

:D

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Originally Posted by jortann

Nothing is overpowered.

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Well let me start a petion to get nothing banned, nerfed, and/completely removed from the game. I can't stand it when I join a shroud and another player does "nothing".
Or how about when I run to level up in the market and there is a player standing there doing "nothing".
Sometimes when I logon and I check to see what my friends are doing and they same "nothing".

This is gamebreaking. This is not acceptable. The dev's should really release an emergency 10.3 patch to address the fix to "nothing" before all the people in Antartica get to play in Dolruhh before I do because of all the "nothing" going on.

Nerf "nothing" or I will so no nerd-rage-quit!

BEST...POST...EVER.

/signed

Jortann,

Firstly, just a quick disclaimer; I'm not advocating nerfs of any sort, nor am I trying to make a point here about melees vs casters.

But Jortann, you really haven't made a very good argument to support your case. The fact that you still see all sort of class/race combinations in the game in no way proves what you are saying. Here are some of the reasons why:

1. There is still some dispute in the community about what the 'most powerful' character is. There is a good case for arcanes, but the FvS is also a strong contender.

2. Not everyone wants to play the most powerful character anyway. Some people want to have fun, others may want to excel in a role which does not necessarily lead to the highest kill count.

3. It takes time for players to respond to changes in the relative power of classes. Arcanes have always been powerful, but in my opinion are becoming more so. Part of this is due to changes to the game, but another part is because now there are now more multi-TR'd, geared-to-the-gills arcanes around than ever before.

4. Not everyone playing the game is aware of the potential of the classes. This certainly wasn't clear to me when I started playing DDO, even though I'd played PnP on and off since first edition. Not everyone reads the forums, understands enough about the game's workings, or has been able to see top tier players in action to make this judgement.

I think if you want to make a serious point about this issue, what you need to be looking at is how well different classes perform against the game environment, solo and in groups. And after that, it is another step again to say whether or not any class/race are overpowered, and then another to decide whether or not this is a bad thing.

Thanks.

Tl;dr

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Originally Posted by jortann

You ask, "Can this really be true?"

And I say, "Absolutely!"

Let me explain why...

No Proof
That is right there is no evidence that anything is overpowered. If it was then we would see evidence of this in the game itself.

Let’s look at an example. For instance let’s say that Warforged wizards are overpowered. If this was true then when I logged on to DDO I would expect to see Warforged wizards everywhere. All the LFMs would have 'WF wizards only'. If you were a cleric you could even find a group to be in because everyone would want WF wizards.

But the game is not like that. As a matter of fact we have a very diverse character base. We see all classes and all races played. There even seems to be a very even distribution of classes and races in the population. I would say that we may be a little short on elves, but that would be the only one thing I would point out.

And I would even say that the way characters are played and are built are very different. You could put two Warforged Wizards next to each other and you would find that they have a very different play style.

By looking at the diversity that we find in the game I would say that there is not anything that is overpowered.

The Game
We all play the same game. DDO software is the same for all of us. We all have the same version. Nobody has an advantage we all have access to the same base software. This is a constant. And because of this we all have the same access to everything the game has to offer. Now some of these options may require sacrifice from us but the options are there none the less.

So, if you find something in the game that is better, then go get it. There is nothing stopping you.

Why are some better?
So if nothing is overpowered and the game is the same for everyone why are some people better than others? Well there are several factors that lead to this some are variables that we can control and some are not...

The unchangeables
1. They have better reflexes - Let’s face it we all don't have the same nimble fingers and quick reactions. I know there are people that will always be better than me, because I cannot match their expertise with a keyboard.
2. They have better spatial ability - Some people are good with maps and memorizing dungeons. Some of us would get lost inside a paper bag.
3. They have a better memory - Some people can remember loads of information. They know right where all the monsters spawn. They know every bad guys immunities and DR.

The variables
4. They have a better interface - Faster machine, fancy mice and bigger screens will make you better
5. They pay money to play - Some of the best things in the game cost you money to get. And that is the way it should be. It is what keeps this game going. Without it none of us would be playing.
6. They play more hours - If you have been playing 10 hours a week for a year, you will not have the experience or the nice things that someone who has been playing 30 hours a week for 5 years.
7. They study the game - They research things on the forums and on DDO wiki. They perfect their craft and make their character better.


So what is the point of all this... well from my point of view I have seen many 'Good Players' and have yet to see anything that is overpowered.

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This post is overpowered +1

I will take DDO for 2000 Alex

The answer is: Nothing is overpowered.

What is more powerful than God, and rich people want it?


So bring in the nerf nuke and go apestuffing on it.

My rebuttal in yellow....

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Originally Posted by blerkington

But Jortann, you really haven't made a very good argument to support your case. The fact that you still see all sort of class/race combinations in the game in no way proves what you are saying. Here are some of the reasons why:

1. There is still some dispute in the community about what the 'most powerful' character is. There is a good case for arcanes, but the FvS is also a strong contender.
You mentioning that there is 'dispute' about the issue just backs up my claims. If something was truly overpowered it would be obvious. And just to clarify, I am talking about 'overpowered' not 'marginally better'.

2. Not everyone wants to play the most powerful character anyway. Some people want to have fun, others may want to excel in a role which does not necessarily lead to the highest kill count.
Again, this only seems to reinforce the point. If something was greatly overpowered everyone would want to play it because it would be no fun to play the gimped underpowered toon, but as 'nothing' is overpowered we can play a variety of characters and all be somewhat competitive with an enjoyable gaming experience. This comes from game balance. Which in my opinion Turbine has done a fairly good job of.

I never mentioned kill count as a qualifier, but it is good that you bring it up, because there are things that contribute to the success of a mission which will not get you a line in the xp report... heals come to mind.

3. It takes time for players to respond to changes in the relative power of classes. Arcanes have always been powerful, but in my opinion are becoming more so. Part of this is due to changes to the game, but another part is because now there are now more multi-TR'd, geared-to-the-gills arcanes around than ever before.
Time? It takes little time for the power gamers to respond. Did you see the duo that TR'd in 2 days? Ok, so for some of us it is slow, but we would see it in two places. First, in lower levels, because everyone would be rolling up the new thing and secondly, in the upper levels with the power gamers who got there first. But as we take a look at the current game, there is still a lot of variety at all levels, because nothing is still overpowered.

4. Not everyone playing the game is aware of the potential of the classes. This certainly wasn't clear to me when I started playing DDO, even though I'd played PnP on and off since first edition. Not everyone reads the forums, understands enough about the game's workings, or has been able to see top tier players in action to make this judgement.
This is very true. And it takes a long time to learn this game or even to just get a grasp of how it works. There is plenty of opportunities to gimp your toon. Even so, we would still see overpowered stuff with top tier players and again it is not there. There is still a lot of variety.

I think if you want to make a serious point about this issue, what you need to be looking at is how well different classes perform against the game environment, solo and in groups. And after that, it is another step again to say whether or not any class/race are overpowered, and then another to decide whether or not this is a bad thing.
This would be a good approach except for one thing you would need an unbiased constant behind the keyboard to do this test and that doesn't exist. Which brings me back to my point... anyway I think this is my point... The player behind the toon has a much larger impact on the character than having twink gear or the perfect build or something that is overpowered. I am certain that there are people that could step in a play my toons way better than I could.... and that, my firend, is overpowered.

Thanks.

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Originally Posted by jortann

The variables
4. They have a better interface - Faster machine, fancy mice and bigger screens will make you better
5. They pay money to play - Some of the best things in the game cost you money to get. And that is the way it should be. It is what keeps this game going. Without it none of us would be playing.

So what is the point of all this... well from my point of view I have seen many 'Good Players' and have yet to see anything that is overpowered.

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Multiboxing is overpowered, need nerf!

By not nerfing Everything, Nothing has changed!

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Originally Posted by Memnir

Only by nerfing everything will nothing be overpowered!

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QTF
something to think about :)


ps: how can you in your right mind think Greensteel is NOT overpowered?!

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Originally Posted by Memnir

Only by nerfing everything will nothing be overpowered!

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Eerie.


Clearly the use of nothing has but this game into an imbalance, if nothing isnt nerfed ill rage quit and take my stuffz with me.

You will see turbine! You will see!!!! You will miss my Priemium account, you will!

This thread is overpowered please nerf it!!

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Originally Posted by jortann

My rebuttal in yellow....

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Originally Posted by blerkington http://cdn.content.turbine.com/sites...d/viewpost.gif
But Jortann, you really haven't made a very good argument to support your case. The fact that you still see all sort of class/race combinations in the game in no way proves what you are saying. Here are some of the reasons why:

1. There is still some dispute in the community about what the 'most powerful' character is. There is a good case for arcanes, but the FvS is also a strong contender.
You mentioning that there is 'dispute' about the issue just backs up my claims. If something was truly overpowered it would be obvious. And just to clarify, I am talking about 'overpowered' not 'marginally better'.

Well, this comes down to a definition of terms, which can be argued all day long without any outcome. But do you agree that a character of any sort who can scroll farm epics or complete the hardest quests in the game by himself is not just marginally better than another equally well-geared character of another type who is played by someone similarly skillful but who cannot do the same thing without help of other players, hireling support or resorting to use large amounts of consumables? Or may even be unable to do it at all?

[Edit; to clarify, the comparison I am making here is between the classes whose job it is to kill enemies, not support classes]

2. Not everyone wants to play the most powerful character anyway. Some people want to have fun, others may want to excel in a role which does not necessarily lead to the highest kill count.
Again, this only seems to reinforce the point. If something was greatly overpowered everyone would want to play it because it would be no fun to play the gimped underpowered toon, but as 'nothing' is overpowered we can play a variety of characters and all be somewhat competitive with an enjoyable gaming experience. This comes from game balance. Which in my opinion Turbine has done a fairly good job of.

I never mentioned kill count as a qualifier, but it is good that you bring it up, because there are things that contribute to the success of a mission which will not get you a line in the xp report... heals come to mind.

This part of your rebuttal is demonstrably false. I am a person who does not want to play a multi-TR'd caster, although it is clear to me that it would be much easier to complete many quests and amass a huge amount of in-game wealth by farming epics. There are other people who have the same opinion, as evidenced by what people say on the forums. That means that 'everybody' does not want to play the most powerful/overpowered character. The terms 'powerful' or 'overpowered' do not necessarily imply most desirable - that very much comes down to a person's individual response.

3. It takes time for players to respond to changes in the relative power of classes. Arcanes have always been powerful, but in my opinion are becoming more so. Part of this is due to changes to the game, but another part is because now there are now more multi-TR'd, geared-to-the-gills arcanes around than ever before.
Time? It takes little time for the power gamers to respond. Did you see the duo that TR'd in 2 days? Ok, so for some of us it is slow, but we would see it in two places. First, in lower levels, because everyone would be rolling up the new thing and secondly, in the upper levels with the power gamers who got there first. But as we take a look at the current game, there is still a lot of variety at all levels, because nothing is still overpowered.

I am familiar with how long it takes a powergamer to level a multi TR toon, because I have read about this sort of thing on the forums. But it does take time, and it takes anyone other but the best players with a lot of time on their hands more time than that. Picking a very anomalous situation and using it to prove a point you are trying to make in general does not make a lot of sense to me.

The thing is, although there are differences in player skill and quality of a build, gear makes a huge difference. This is why people work towards improving it, power-gamer or not.

Skill is a huge factor, but these accomplishments don't happen without the gear. And if you don't already have the gear (which could be the case for someone TRing into a different class) it takes time to accumlate it and reach the peak of your character's power again.

4. Not everyone playing the game is aware of the potential of the classes. This certainly wasn't clear to me when I started playing DDO, even though I'd played PnP on and off since first edition. Not everyone reads the forums, understands enough about the game's workings, or has been able to see top tier players in action to make this judgement.
This is very true. And it takes a long time to learn this game or even to just get a grasp of how it works. There is plenty of opportunities to gimp your toon. Even so, we would still see overpowered stuff with top tier players and again it is not there. There is still a lot of variety.

This is not so much a rebuttal, as you just restating your opinion again. You are saying you think you do not see overpowered characters, but clearly other people (not necessarily me) disagree. Your opinion is not the same thing as an argument supported by logic or facts.

I think if you want to make a serious point about this issue, what you need to be looking at is how well different classes perform against the game environment, solo and in groups. And after that, it is another step again to say whether or not any class/race are overpowered, and then another to decide whether or not this is a bad thing.
This would be a good approach except for one thing you would need an unbiased constant behind the keyboard to do this test and that doesn't exist. Which brings me back to my point... anyway I think this is my point... The player behind the toon has a much larger impact on the character than having twink gear or the perfect build or something that is overpowered. I am certain that there are people that could step in a play my toons way better than I could.... and that, my firend, is overpowered.

What is the constant? It's not as difficult as you are making it out to be.The constant can be one person, ie, you or me, or anyone else who takes the time to play different toons. Same person, same game knowledge, same computer, ie, the variables you mention in your original post.

Without naming names, take a look at recent posts about whether or not casters are overpowered, and you will see that some of the people involved in them are playing at an elite level, and present their opinions about which type of toon is the most powerful. Again, I'm not taking sides here, but that work has already been done, and you could repeat it yourself if you haven't done it already.

Thanks.

If Nothing is overpowered then I REALLY want some of it.

I've been grinding for Nothing since I started the game and I still haven't got it.

I guess if Nothing is overpowered, it's certainly rare, so I guess that's OK then.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jortann

You ask, "Can this really be true?"

And I say, "Absolutely!"

Let me explain why...

No Proof
That is right there is no evidence that anything is overpowered. If it was then we would see evidence of this in the game itself.

Let’s look at an example. For instance let’s say that Warforged wizards are overpowered. If this was true then when I logged on to DDO I would expect to see Warforged wizards everywhere. All the LFMs would have 'WF wizards only'. If you were a cleric you could even find a group to be in because everyone would want WF wizards.

But the game is not like that. As a matter of fact we have a very diverse character base. We see all classes and all races played. There even seems to be a very even distribution of classes and races in the population. I would say that we may be a little short on elves, but that would be the only one thing I would point out.

And I would even say that the way characters are played and are built are very different. You could put two Warforged Wizards next to each other and you would find that they have a very different play style.

By looking at the diversity that we find in the game I would say that there is not anything that is overpowered.

The Game
We all play the same game. DDO software is the same for all of us. We all have the same version. Nobody has an advantage we all have access to the same base software. This is a constant. And because of this we all have the same access to everything the game has to offer. Now some of these options may require sacrifice from us but the options are there none the less.

So, if you find something in the game that is better, then go get it. There is nothing stopping you.

Why are some better?
So if nothing is overpowered and the game is the same for everyone why are some people better than others? Well there are several factors that lead to this some are variables that we can control and some are not...

The unchangeables
1. They have better reflexes - Let’s face it we all don't have the same nimble fingers and quick reactions. I know there are people that will always be better than me, because I cannot match their expertise with a keyboard.
2. They have better spatial ability - Some people are good with maps and memorizing dungeons. Some of us would get lost inside a paper bag.
3. They have a better memory - Some people can remember loads of information. They know right where all the monsters spawn. They know every bad guys immunities and DR.

The variables
4. They have a better interface - Faster machine, fancy mice and bigger screens will make you better
5. They pay money to play - Some of the best things in the game cost you money to get. And that is the way it should be. It is what keeps this game going. Without it none of us would be playing.
6. They play more hours - If you have been playing 10 hours a week for a year, you will not have the experience or the nice things that someone who has been playing 30 hours a week for 5 years.
7. They study the game - They research things on the forums and on DDO wiki. They perfect their craft and make their character better.


So what is the point of all this... well from my point of view I have seen many 'Good Players' and have yet to see anything that is overpowered.

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The above post is overpowered.

my response in white

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Originally Posted by blerkington

Well, this comes down to a definition of terms, which can be argued all day long without any outcome. But do you agree that a character of any sort who can scroll farm epics or complete the hardest quests in the game by himself is not just marginally better than another equally well-geared character of another type who is played by someone similarly skillful but who cannot do the same thing without help of other players, hireling support or resorting to use large amounts of consumables? Or may even be unable to do it at all?

To use your example... what I am saying is that people who can solo epics are good players. See the section in the original post titled 'why are they better'.

This part of your rebuttal is demonstrably false. I am a person who does not want to play a multi-TR'd caster, although it is clear to me that it would be much easier to complete many quests and amass a huge amount of in-game wealth by farming epics. There are other people who have the same opinion, as evidenced by what people say on the forums. That means that 'everybody' does not want to play the most powerful/overpowered character. The terms 'powerful' or 'overpowered' do not necessarily imply most desirable - that very much comes down to a person's individual response.

My arguement which you are missing is this... using your example again... If playing a caster was so overpowered it would make playing anything else so undesirable that people would not play it.

As for evidence... you state that my opinion doesn't count yet you use the opinions of other forum posts to back up your opinion. If you have facts lets see them. My facts are that the variety that exists in the game is there because nothing is overpowered.


The thing is, although there are differences in player skill and quality of a build, gear makes a huge difference. This is why people work towards improving it, power-gamer or not.

Skill is a huge factor, but these accomplishments don't happen without the gear. And if you don't already have the gear (which could be the case for someone TRing into a different class) it takes time to accumlate it and reach the peak of your character's power again.

Are you suggesting that all gear should be the same so nothing is overpowered? Gear is part of the game. Grinding for gear is part of the game. It is available to everyone equally (if you are willing to buy additional packs). Thus it cannot be overpowered as everyone has access to it.

You are saying you think you do not see overpowered characters, but clearly other people (not necessarily me) disagree. Your opinion is not the same thing as an argument supported by logic or facts.

But I have used logic several times, you are just not recognizing it. And yes, many people are complaining that things are overpowered but that they have no proof - they are just complaining. Which brings us to the point of this thread.... again.

What is the constant? It's not as difficult as you are making it out to be.The constant can be one person, ie, you or me, or anyone else who takes the time to play different toons. Same person, same game knowledge, same computer, ie, the variables you mention in your original post.

You seemed to skip over the word unbiased. Also it takes different skill sets to play different types of characters. Say wizard as opposed to barbarian. For example... Shade is someone who has lots of knowledge about the game, but I am sure that he would argue that Barbarians are the best. Some may say that his opinion is biased.

Without naming names, take a look at recent posts about whether or not casters are overpowered, and you will see that some of the people involved in them are playing at an elite level, and present their opinions about which type of toon is the most powerful. Again, I'm not taking sides here, but that work has already been done, and you could repeat it yourself if you haven't done it already.

I have a level 20 Wizard and a level 18 Barabarian. I would not say that one or the other is more powerful. They both have areas in the game where they excel. And they are both very different characters. I enjoy playing them both and find them equally powerful.

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Originally Posted by Memnir

Only by nerfing nothing will everything be overpowered!

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Fixed it

Jortann,

This issue is a matter of opinion, and I can see that I am not making any headway in changing yours. That's fine, of course you are entitled to your opinion, but presenting it as fact is quite another thing.

Getting to the points you raise in your re-rebuttal above:

1. Yes, you need to be a good player to solo an epic. But my point is, it is much easier for good players to do that with some classes than others. Only a caster can instakill a group of epic mobs, repeatedly, with little danger to itself in a solo setting. Some other builds can complete epics or scroll farm, with gear, support and consumables. Others may not be able to do it at all, or only with great difficulty.

2. Again, this argument is circular. You are restating your opinion and then using it as a conclusion. Being very powerful or overpowered is not inherently the same as being the most desirable. People play support classes (or flavour builds) for this reason. I am one of those people, and there are others. Making statements about 'everybody' is a generalisation, which is trivially easy to prove wrong. People play in different ways, and for different reasons.

3. Here you are just putting words into my mouth. I did not say that all gear should be the same. I think you should argue what I am saying, rather than inventing a position for me. Have you heard of the Straw Man Fallacy? This is a good example of it.

There was an odd post on the forums a while ago from someone who was suggesting (possibly as a joke, though it didn't seem that way) that you be able to buy a weapon from the DDO store which could instakill any enemy in the game.

Using your own logic, if such an item was available to everyone, so any character, no matter how badly built, played, or geared, could use it to complete the hardest quests in the game with little risk or effort, it would not be overpowered? Obviously it would be. The fact that something is potentially available to anyone is not the same as whether or not it is overpowered.

4. You believe that your argument is logical, I do not, for the reasons I have mentioned in this post and the two from before. I suspect there is not much more I can do to convince you of this.

As to the issue of proof, dismissing everything the other posters have said in their arguments to establish that some build is more powerful/too powerful as just being opinion is a standard that you are clearly not applying to yourself. Your post is an opinion, not fact.

5. Yes, there are diffences in playing different classes. That is just part of knowledge of the game. If you understand the game well, you will do well playing any class. Shade loves his barbarians, but that is not to say he would not do well as a caster.

I'm glad we've had this discussion, even though I don't think it has accomplished much. If you take anything away from it, maybe it will be that what sounded watertight to you when you wrote it, may actually not be, and that there are no simple answers to this question. Reasoned discussion improves the community, sticking to your guns no matter what maybe not so much.

See you around.

PS +1 rep for taking the time and effort to make your case.