U5 combat feedback THF exclusively

So from what I'm gleening, DPS we build our DPS melee characters for comes down to a luck based system.

On occasion, I've not been extremly fond of it on my casters. Ie; max out your crit enhancements, items, etc you have about an 18% increased chance of getting a crit. You may get lucky and land 3 crits every 3 spells cast, or it could be 1 in 30.

I'd like to know on average how much less DPS we're looking at before understanding the effect it may have on everyone else. Are we talking an extra 3-5 mins in raids to beat down a boss?

I can't believe this is even being considered....

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Originally Posted by ragwa1

I can't believe this is even being considered....

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Lag can be frustrating and can cause raid wipes, but I'm sure most people who play a TWF toon would gladly deal with the lag if it a 25% nerf to dps. So yeah neither can I.

I'd like to leave twitch attacking out of this discussion. While the devs havent said its unintended, or an exploit or whatever, they also haven't officially said its an intended combat style either. (Even though they should. As a bottom line, it adds fun to the game for many players like myself, and fun makes players stay)

So on to "officially legitimate combat"...
Autoattacking vs Constant movement.

Currently (assuming no misses) TWF autoattack does around the same dps as TWF while constantly moving. These changes wont affect that relationship at all.

Currently (assuming no misses) THF autoattack does around the same dps as THF while constantly moving. The problem now, is that removing glancing blows from moving attacks effectively makes mobile combat undesirable (approximately 10-15% less dps then autoattack)

Regardless of what any1 thinks of twitch attacking (or what the dev's official position on it is) this change would be a heavy nerf on mobile combat for THFs. Maybe its just me, but the whole role reversal here doesnt make much sense...

For all the talk about how TWF is affected, I seriously worry that this will cause more of a downgrade to the THF playstyle. Unless I misunderstand, it's basically eliminating MOST of the gain one gets from the GTHF feat.

I'm not even talking about full-time twitching against a single stationary target -- I'm talking about the hit-and-move style many THFs use when fighting in groups, partly to avoid being hit, but also to get their DPS to a somewhat respectable level (compared to TWF). I can really see this really downgrading the fun factor, and making combat less active. Furthermore, what would the purpose then be of the GTHF feat? (It really needs to be more than just one glancing blow late in the chain -- heck, GTWF grants a whole additional attack (with full proc of all bonuses and extras), but all GTHF would to is add a glancing blow, which at best is a fraction of an attack, and only a miniscule chance of proc-ing stuff).

If twitch THF is not liked by server (too much speed, too much calcs, move detect, colision detect, damage...), then why not:
- move glancing blows to 3rd and 4th
- increase proc rate of glancing blows by alot because it's now on slower attack
- let 3rd and 4th attack roll high number. So not 1-12 for axe, but 6-12. Maybe 4th attack would simply do "max" damage

Change things in such a way, that average damage output is more or less the same. Less speed (twitch not wellcome), but as reward, random generator is on your side.

Maybe?

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Originally Posted by Eladrin

It’s likely that we’ll change Glancing Blows to operate in a similar manner in the future as well (chance to proc based on feats/enhancements rather than guaranteed on swing X), but right now I have to stay pretty focused on TWF and monk unarmed combat.

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If i can go out on a limb here...
Ideally the above statement would mean that any hit (moving or stationary) would have a chance to proc glancing blows... maybe at the same rate as offhand attacks.

hmm... /signed? :)

Personally, I'm tired of the game going into slideshow mode during large DPS sequences. I'm tired of standing at the base of the stairs in Phase1 of the Shroud for 3 minutes after the last portal is destroyed waiting for the barrier on the stairs to go down so I can join everyone else at the shrine/chests. I'm tired of people dying without even seeing they are being hurt. I'm tired of raids wiping because we all freeze for 10 seconds while the monsters have a free reign.

If it means losing a bit of damage? Good deal.

Course, I think there are also other ways to improve it. Like not spreading out burst damage on crits apart from the normal hit. Shocking burst should do +15, not +5 +10 with all the separate resist checks etc that involves.

Personally I hate the negatives to moving. Regardless of twitch, I like to move when I fight in DDO. Its what makes the game fun to play.

If we have to stand still, this game is going to be stale and boring like other MMOs. If we have to live with this new system, how about giving player arcanes unlimited mana. Then we can all switch to arcane, and reduce DPS lag :)

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Originally Posted by Pyromaniac

Personally I hate the negatives to moving. Regardless of twitch, I like to move when I fight in DDO. Its what makes the game fun to play.

If we have to stand still, this game is going to be stale and boring like other MMOs. If we have to live with this new system, how about giving player arcanes unlimited mana. Then we can all switch to arcane, and reduce DPS lag :)

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I thought arcanes already had unlimited sp, its just controlled by their wallet.

I personally get barely any DPS lag, taking the end of shroud part 1 as an example I'm straight up those stairs and the first one to open the chest, however when I play on an older machine then I start to get lag.


I don't want to have to stand still and Autoattack portals or stop infront of every mob I see. One thing I love about THF is the reach of the weapon and the fact that I can move relatively quickly from mob to mob while twitching.


Taking a game like this that has an endgame heavily focused on DPS and then nerfing the DPS of all players seems to be a step backwards.

I think this is an opportunity for the devs to add glancing blows back in via the mobility or spring attack feat. By doing so, they allow the fighter with tons of feats to inch just that much closer to a barbarian in DPS. Just a thought.

I also want to mention that I'm running a quad-core 3.1ghz machine with 4G of ram and an 8800GT nvidia card.. and I have approximately 3 minutes of lag after every beat-down session in the shroud.. where I don't have ANY lag in any other part of the game. I would like to contribute to shroud runs again, please. At this juncture I just hide my character in a "safe spot" and let everyone carry me through.. and it's not fair to ME, or the other players who got stuck with me in their raid. This isn't about having an "older machine" which causes the lag, because my machine has yet to find something I can't do at full settings.

As much as I mislike TWF nerf, this one is worse.
FPS-like combat is what makes DDO fun. Constant moving, jumping, changing position, avoiding attacks is the part I like about this game. Take twitching away and DDO will lose half of its appeal.

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Originally Posted by Krag

As much as I mislike TWF nerf, this one is worse.
FPS-like combat is what makes DDO fun. Constant moving, jumping, changing position, avoiding attacks is the part I like about this game. Take twitching away and DDO will lose half of its appeal.

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Only half?

Let's be honest here. DDO's appeal is directly tied to the real time, fast combat. It remains a highly enjoyable game if and only if the combat remains real time and fast. DDO is NOT going to win if it tries to compete against any of the auto attack and sammich games on their own terms.

Even those I rarely, if ever agree with about anything are coming to the same conclusion. And when people rarely see eye to eye, and yet do here that is a good sign that whatever is causing them to see eye to eye is A Big Deal (tm).

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Originally Posted by Durnak

From my understanding thus far, You have a 100% chance to land 11 instead of 10 hits with the capstone.

Now with the change implemented, its a 10% chance to proc an additional hit aka "doubletrike" every hit, or in an attack sequence?

That still is effectively <100% chance of laying an 11th hit in a 10 hit sequence.

If you are hasted boosted, then in a 20 second interval you have an additional 30% chance to land a doublestrike effect?

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True, you get about a 65% chance to get at least one extra swing in 10, but you have an increase in the chance to proc TWO extra hits in 10 swings from 0% to about 40%, as well as chances to proc three, four, five, even up to ten extra hits in ten swings going up from zero to some chance of happening. Over the long run, the change from an attack speed increase to a "double-strike" system is a wash, even if you see some attack sequences of 10 swings that generate no extra hits, there will be an equivalent increase in times you see more than one extra hit and the dps will come out to the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Durnak

I am already NOT happy seeing that "Attacks with two handed weapons while moving no longer perform Glancing Blows."

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I find this will be more, realistic, if anything. And also reduce some 'twitching'...

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Originally Posted by Durnak

Why the nerf thus far?

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To better the game

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Originally Posted by Durnak

And please explicitly explain the mechanism behind fighter haste boost and alacrity either by someone who understood it thoroughly or by eladrin himself. I'm quite concerned.

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Yes please. This is important stuff, I want my fighter to be able to attack as fast as he has always been able to...

In addition to serious concern about the reduction in effectiveness and enjoyment factor of THF, I also wonder just how much this will address the issue.

My experience has been that lag has been an issue during specific times and quests. (For example, shroud parts 4 and 5, during peak play hours). Are moving glancing blows really the problem here? I've played a THF pally, and find that during single-target beatdowns in raids, there are so many massed melees and effects, that it is challenging to impossible to track your own swings precisely enough to "twitch" (while also executing smites, action boosts, whatever). Maybe there are others that do this consistently in raid beatdowns, but I find it impractical.

It's not here, but in more routine combat, that the fun and effectiveness of moving glancing blows is more apparent. But that's not where the lag is, by and large.

So, if removing this (moving glancing blows) is going to put a serious dent in THF, the kind that will do more than the TWF nerf in many ways, in that it will change the nature and feel of the combat -- yet, won't do much to address shroud part 4 and 5 lag, why do it? It seems to me a change that gains relatively little where lag is worst, yet costs so much in terms of the hit to players.

JMHO

The only reasoning I can think of for this change is to discourage "twitching" while THF.

If the original post is to be believed, then the simple act of determining if a weapon actually "touched" the target is causing lag. Checking every 0.15 seconds in the case of a "stationary" TWF.

So, consider if you will that a "twitch" THF is getting almost as many attacks as a TWF, but that those attacks are being made while being "in motion" therefore requiring a "new" collision detection calculation for every swing. Then you have to factor in the collsion detections for the glancing blows as well, which would place your total calculations GREATER then a stationary or moving TWF as they get no glancing blows.

Effectively, a twitching THF causes more "lag" then a stationary TWF if the information we are being provided with can be believed.

By removing the glancing blow calculations from a THF you eliminate the need for those calculations while at the same time discouraging what I believe to be an unintended combat style "twitching".

If it is seen as a "nerf" thats unfortunate but considering that both THF and TWF are getting "nerfed" for the same reasons.

Now I cant wait for the Archery/Manyshot nerf "Sorry, too many to hit calculations in the 20 seconds you have manyshot going so we decided to just make archers attack slower in general:rolleyes::D"

Now this is all just conjecture on my part, but someone asked "why" and that's the best explanation I can come up with.

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Originally Posted by Consumer

I personally get barely any DPS lag, taking the end of shroud part 1 as an example I'm straight up those stairs and the first one to open the chest, however when I play on an older machine then I start to get lag.

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If you do not get DPS lag, you aren't doing enough DPS. Part 1 isn't that bad, part 4 and part 5 are the worst. Once you get to epic von6, or ToD or epic dq, tell me you do not get lag. Please.

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Originally Posted by Nezichiend

If you do not get DPS lag, you aren't doing enough DPS. Part 1 isn't that bad, part 4 and part 5 are the worst. Once you get to epic von6, or ToD or epic dq, tell me you do not get lag. Please.

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Lol

Its funny that Shade can film a epic von 6 with fraps and barely get any lag and you don't insult his toons for not doing enough DPS.

I used part 1 as an example as someone already had earlier in the thread. Don't get annoyed because I don't experience the lag you do.

Maybe the first person I squelch on the forums.

Look at shades video or my own of epic dragona and tell me if thats enouth dps for ya.

The point is this: THF'ers do not contiute to lag to the extent that TWF do because of how epic dragon, for example reacts to the group makeup. Lag ensues only when you have TWF'ers beating on the dragon in addition to two handers, as opposed to two handers alone. This is tested and seen by everyone who run the quest.

So fix the cause, allow the doublestrike mechanism to apply ONLY to twf'ers, if thers a decremental decrease in dps- then adjust it by a percentage. Leave THF untouched- problem solved.

Or beteter yet, apply the doublestrike affect only in the sense of physics etection- leave the dps unhanged, I don't think ther was much complaint about its performance.