New Monster Type

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Originally Posted by Ghoste

For what it's worth, Keith Baker disagrees with you.

The End.

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I look at it this way.

You cannot cast Repair on a dead Warforged and expect it to live again so why should you be able to repair an undead WF (Livewood to dead wood?)

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Originally Posted by TreknaQudane

I look at it this way.

You cannot cast Repair on a dead Warforged and expect it to live again so why should you be able to repair an undead WF (Livewood to dead wood?)

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No fair using logic and common sense on these forums!

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Originally Posted by Uskathoth

So warforged appeal to kids but pretending to be an elf or a dwarf while playing a computer game appeals to a more mature client base. Obviously.

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Strawmen are fun. But I expected that. Distorting my sentiments don't score points.

Yes, as I've said many times, this is a Video Game with Elves and Dragons. Therefore anyone who gets themselves too worked up over anything in game or on these boards prolly needs a game break to reconnect with reality. (hint hint).

D&D was, however, invented my adults to (originally) have fun with miniature combat (ie chainmail).

And from that we have many campaign setting - this one was geared towards a younger, less sophisticated power gaming audience - the Magic the Gathering type of crowd.

Really, if they had been targeting mature players we would have seen a Greyhawk Setting .. or maybe Birthright .. but that obviously wouldn't sell as well.

So .. cue Ronald McDonald.

You know that clown and the swing sets aren't there because they care about your kids, right? It's a marketing ploy just as warforged and the over the top magic everywhere setting of this world is.

It's the situation Piers Anthony found himself in .. a great writer not making money until he got really really dumb .. with Xanth.

So really, it kinda laughable when people complain about the "Dumbing Down" of this game.

I would have thought we all realized that the day we first played this game.

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Originally Posted by TreknaQudane

I look at it this way.

You cannot cast Repair on a dead Warforged and expect it to live again so why should you be able to repair an undead WF (Livewood to dead wood?)

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But you should be able to cast a heal spell on any other race in undead form?

i dont think undead can have a sub type...
Besides, its the construct type that gives a WF repair-ability, not its living subtype

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Originally Posted by Ghoste

For what it's worth, Keith Baker disagrees with you.

The End.

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Kieth Baker also disagrees with warforged not being able to manifest dragonmarks. The ones forged get will always be abberant though.

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Originally Posted by Atenhotep

For what its worth Warforged have always seemed like the kind of thing that appeals to children.

edit: to be clear, that's not a personal insult .. to each their own .. but imo the warforged are the Ronald McDonald of D&D .. a marketing ploy to appeal to a younger audience base. And clearly the warforged builds are the "casual mode" of character creation.

With all the shark jumping this campaign setting does though it would be fairly pointless to harp on the idea of a Warforged Lich. Just silliness heaped on silliness.

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What? lol What? Lots of grown, mature, and what I consider sophisticated people love their Warforged. This is an assumption on your part imo. The grown mature players who love their WF characters in game are evidence they aren't just marketed to or enjoyed by casual mode children.

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Originally Posted by Ghoste

It would seem Wizards may have changed their rule about warforged not being able to become undead.

Did a search and came up with the following links:
Look under heading "The Dark Six" near bottom: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/as/20061113a
Here's another one. this guy really goes off about the reasoning behind all the details: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...ic=4164.0;wap2
And here are some links from the Wizards forums. Some of them discuss adventures already made by Wizards that contain undead warforged:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...1078#332191078
And here's one refering to a post by Keith Baker himself on the Wizards board about how warforged can be undead, although not liches specifically since that requires one to begin as a humanoid: http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...2154#332102154

Only thing I'm not having any luck finding any info on is whether or not this affects repair spells. Since they are from the transmutation school, and are not influenced in any way by the polarization of the target's life force, then in theory it should still work. However, if Turbine insists that becoming an undead construct changes this, then shouldn't the cause damage (opposite of repair damage, just as inflict is to cure) spells be available to use in the same way?

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Fascinating! I was dead set against Warforged becoming Pale Masters until I read these links. Very interesting..

I think the repair/reconstruct question needs to be considered.. the thing is if you cast reconstruct on a dead warforged you would still repair the body, and it isn't positive energy (as opposed to heal). The better question would be whether harm/necrotic touch should work.

I say yes repair should work becasue, Machines arent dead or alive its a different type of magic i guess.

Now a Pale Master Warforged should get half the healing from harm and all the inflicts etc as any warfoged gets half healed by any healing spell in the game.

That is how I would DM it.

The Pale Master undead forms in DDO fully convert the character to Undead type, with many of the benefits and drawbacks of the type. Repairs do not function on Pale Master Warforged.

There's a bit of conflicting lore regarding Warforged and the ability to become undead in the Eberron source material - one of the theological arguments against them being "real people" and having souls was supposedly their inability to become undead. We didn't want to lock them out of the Pale Master PrE, so we permitted them to gain identical bonuses to the other races.

So now they're "real people" and have souls? Hehehe.

This thread makes me think about this:
http://www.hecklerspray.com/wp-conte.../roy-batty.jpg

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Originally Posted by Ghoste

Wow, you sure put a lot of thought into that.This is not a discussion about how it does work in DDO, this is about how it should work.

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They can no longer be repaired therefore we can infer the devs believe they are no longer constructs. It's an appeal to authority(and likely based on the needs of game balance) but the story reasons are/will be constructed myths to serve the needs of game balance anyways. Where they can't connect the two, they'll kludge.

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Originally Posted by Ghoste

Four fire savants? No. A fire savant, an earth savant, an air savant, and a cold savant will be able to stack their walls, they just wont all be firewalls. Take out the fire savant, and you have what everybody's going to want in their Shroud groups. 3 crit walls are a lot of DPS for that pitfiend. Not that fire savants should feel left out, what with their total immunity to the Abbott's inferno. They can just be main repairer in Shroud groups while the other 3 handle dps.

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Iirc, they changed the Inferno damage to untyped rather than fire a long time ago. Been a very long time since I've stood in it though so not 100% sure.

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Originally Posted by Eladrin

The Pale Master undead forms in DDO fully convert the character to Undead type, with many of the benefits and drawbacks of the type.

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If they are fully converted, why not gain all the benefits and all the drawbacks?

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Originally Posted by Ghoste

Four fire savants? No. A fire savant, an earth savant, an air savant, and a cold savant will be able to stack their walls, they just wont all be firewalls. Take out the fire savant, and you have what everybody's going to want in their Shroud groups. 3 crit walls are a lot of DPS for that pitfiend. Not that fire savants should feel left out, what with their total immunity to the Abbott's inferno. They can just be main repairer in Shroud groups while the other 3 handle dps.

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Oh that sounds interesting. Where can i read more about the savants in DDO?

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Originally Posted by Eladrin

The Pale Master undead forms in DDO fully convert the character to Undead type, with many of the benefits and drawbacks of the type. Repairs do not function on Pale Master Warforged.

There's a bit of conflicting lore regarding Warforged and the ability to become undead in the Eberron source material - one of the theological arguments against them being "real people" and having souls was supposedly their inability to become undead. We didn't want to lock them out of the Pale Master PrE, so we permitted them to gain identical bonuses to the other races.

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Nice try, now let's get down to the REAL issue.

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Originally Posted by TreknaQudane

I look at it this way.

You cannot cast Repair on a dead Warforged and expect it to live again so why should you be able to repair an undead WF (Livewood to dead wood?)

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Live? Repair has nothing to do with life or unlife.

Look at it this way: you can cast repair on an iron golem, a being without a spec of life in it, and it does indeed repair damage to the construct.

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Originally Posted by Eladrin

The Pale Master undead forms in DDO fully convert the character to Undead type, with many of the benefits and drawbacks of the type. Repairs do not function on Pale Master Warforged.

There's a bit of conflicting lore regarding Warforged and the ability to become undead in the Eberron source material - one of the theological arguments against them being "real people" and having souls was supposedly their inability to become undead. We didn't want to lock them out of the Pale Master PrE, so we permitted them to gain identical bonuses to the other races.

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My main point with this thread was this: was it intentional to fully convert them? It's pretty obvious that was the end effect, but was that the aim from the beginning?

If so, then it is what it is. It's not like you guys have a lot of precedents to go off of with this. What I think I'm hearing from you is that the warforged pale master in undead form basically ceases to be a warforged anymore in any sense of the word except for appearance. This notion alone (losing one's warforgedness), forget the whole idea of whether repair works or not, will seriously make me reconsider whether or not I go pale master.

If heal has a direct opposite in harm why doesn't reconstruct with its speed enhancer have a direct opposite with a speed de-enhancer? Or is positive and negative only thought of within the devine spells?