non self-sufficiency

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Originally Posted by Leyoni

You are an idiot. This is my statement, "The good and skilled cleric is the one that performs either function with ease depending on the party composition and need."

A good cleric heals when needed. A good cleric banishes when needed. A good cleric blade barriers when needed.

What I think a cleric should be is all of these things. It is you and Aranticus and the others that are pigeon holing the clerics.

I'm just telling you all what the problem is -- clerics that refuse to heal are self-centered and useless to a group oriented game AND clerics that do nothing but heal are self-centered and useless to a group game. Neither is living up to it full potential. The good and skilled cleric fits the role needed by the group.

A point lost on those of you who are self-centered.

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Ahhhh. We are a special one eh?

It is not refusing to heal, its refusing to babysit, and this it what YOU do not get. THIS was the original point of the op. If you get cursed, dont ask for remove curse, drink a potion. If you can wand whip, then at the end of a fight, top off.

Yeah, if I see someone drop 50+% in one shot, I'm throwing a heal and I'm throwing one quick. But I am NOT babysitting some gimpy !#@ character who refuses to be self sufficient in any way.

Healbots are gimp clerics, they are the antithesis of everything D&D and any other class that refuses to be self sufficient in any way are also gimp

Also buddy, if you like your posting privilages, watch with the name calling.

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Originally Posted by Leyoni

I see that I missed the "me" in the final like regarding the socerer killing. Apologies. I guess I need to go back to school for reading lessons as well.

And, I notice you still fail to answer the question regarding completion. But now I have other questions. You and the sorcerer together had 115 kills, the others together only 35. So what was your share? Why did you need to draw the sorcerer into the discussion? Is it possible that the other fighter and the sorcerer had 100 kills? I see you posted that you had the top kills but I'm wondering how truthful that is given your initial post. But, it is really irrelevent isn't it? If you completed the quest then what difference does it make who had the most kills.

i'm quite well known in khyber and people can attest that i'm not one that fakes

Let me repeat myself. You were in two pick up groups. You get what you get. Don't like it, don't play in PUGs. Complaining won't change anything.

wrong, the top people in khyber frequently post in the forums. such behavior when highlighted make them more aware. when these people do not get into the raid groups, they will have no choice

You shouldn't engage in guess work as you are not equipped for the task. As with other parts of your posts it is an effort at exaggeration that has no bearing on the important points of the discussion. It is similar to your posting a link about top melees. There is nothing valid about the listing other than it is the opinion of the people who posted. It doesn't make you special, just egotistical and arrogant.

you are the one who suggested my poor ability. i just use it to prove that khyber server think otherwise ;)

You quote me on what a good cleric is all about and then still rant. You just like to read yourself in print don't you? When you're all done you agree that a cleric does what is required in the group if it is a good cleric. What part of my post makes you think that different tactics in different quests isn't appropriate? Once more it is you that has trouble reading I suppose since this is what I said, "The good and skilled cleric is the one that performs either function with ease depending on the party composition and need."

your experience with a bb cleric. unless every melee in a devils group is using w/ps, else, the cleric is better off using bb than healing

The real problem here is that you have a fetish that you can't let go of. Self sufficiency does not hurt any one, but it is not such an issue that it merits your level of crying over it. If it is that important to you then you need to not join PUGs. PUGs are a mess. You get what you get. Sometimes it is good. Sometimes it is bad. That is what makes them fun. If you can't deal with that then don't play in them.

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Crimsoneagle got it right. a little self sufficiency goes a long way. most people in ddo are adults, its hilarious to see that they need babysitting :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Leyoni

Clerics have become what DDO and Turbine development have made them to be. Some people have the notion that clerics should be primarily healers. It seems a waste to have such ability in a group member and have that player so self-centered that they cannot use the skills for the good of the group.

Having said that, healing mitigation (as you put it) has legitimacy. Any cleric that is purely a healbot is missing out on abilities that would help the entire party and are equally self-centered in that they are not using all of the class ability for the benefit of the entire party.

The good and skilled cleric is the one that performs either function with ease depending on the party composition and need. The selfishness of the "dorf cleric" that brings the attitude "you will be sorely lacking in that regard and probably wind up dead" is what give battle clerics a bad reputation. It usually translates like this: battle cleric = bad cleric. Probably don't want to be running in groups with people that are that self-centered.

DDO is a group game. Each character needs to contribute to the group. In the case of clerics that means being both willing and able to heal along with whatever other skills they possess.

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In your original post mate, you said Cleric = healer, curse remover etc, etc, so lets readdress your thoughts on self centred and party play. To quote you about each character contributing, a cleric can heal and do all the other remove curse etc, but doesnt mean that if they arent doing that that they arent contributing in some way.

As far as skills go, lets look at that for a minute, the remove curse/disease etc, comes in a potion form as well as spell last time i checked, therefore EVERYONE has the availability to access it, so therefore can contribute to the group by buying some. Why be a lazy ass and rely on a cleric to do it all for you. Oh thats right you have them pigeonholed as a healer.

DDO is a group game as you pointed out, and a cleric can contribute quite adequately to a party without having to just stand there and remove that curse you have. If you have zerged off and left the cleric way behind, and you get cursed, what do you do? Im betting that based on you other posts that you would expect the cleric to be right there holding you hand and removed that curse for you.

Self sufficiency can make a quest go a lot easier. Do you expect clerics to carry numerous heal scrolls and mana pots, i would be guessing the answer is yes, so i dont really think its beyond a stretch for the faithful healer in your group to reasonably expect that you may use a little bit of that there plat you have in abundance to buy a few pots. After all you expect them to use their plat for scrolls rather than things that could be useful to them.

Please feel free to correct me if i am wrong there, but that is what i can gather from the nature of your posts.

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Originally Posted by Aranticus

Crimsoneagle got it right. a little self sufficiency goes a long way. most people in ddo are adults, its hilarious to see that they need babysitting :rolleyes:

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Lol, you mean like a wizard with only 180 HPs that doesn't cast fire prot and cold shield on himself when fighting the fire ellie?? :p
The fire ellie says" Hold on Orc, Gnoll, and Devil... I got the wizard prepped"

Not everyone has the same playstyle, some are gimpier than others. I agree that there needs to be some common sense used( like no madstone when the devil pops in Shroud or while fighting Sally) Have some curse pots. But I generally don't expect melees to take care of all their problems themselves. If a melee stops to chug a bunch of pots he's not doing what he was designed to do... kill stuff.

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Originally Posted by Boldrin

Lol, you mean like a wizard with only 180 HPs that doesn't cast fire prot and cold shield on himself when fighting the fire ellie?? :p
The fire ellie says" Hold on Orc, Gnoll, and Devil... I got the wizard prepped"

Not everyone has the same playstyle, some are gimpier than others. I agree that there needs to be some common sense used( like no madstone when the devil pops in Shroud or while fighting Sally) Have some curse pots. But I generally don't expect melees to take care of all their problems themselves. If a melee stops to chug a bunch of pots he's not doing what he was designed to do... kill stuff.

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Fair point mate, speaking on behalf of clerics, well at least mine, i dont expect them to be chugging mid fight, but i dont think i am being unrealistic in expecting them to do something between fights if able to. I mean while im busy taking care of that curse, two others could be dying from the one shot DBF they just took with their 180 hps :)

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Originally Posted by Boldrin

Lol, you mean like a wizard with only 180 HPs that doesn't cast fire prot and cold shield on himself when fighting the fire ellie?? :p
The fire ellie says" Hold on Orc, Gnoll, and Devil... I got the wizard prepped"

Not everyone has the same playstyle, some are gimpier than others. I agree that there needs to be some common sense used( like no madstone when the devil pops in Shroud or while fighting Sally) Have some curse pots. But I generally don't expect melees to take care of all their problems themselves. If a melee stops to chug a bunch of pots he's not doing what he was designed to do... kill stuff.

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if i heard correctly, the cleric told the wizard to go ahead and will keep him up. The fire ellie high fives the cleric "good job there helping me prep the wizard!"

you are basically saying the same thing, everyone should at least be able to take care of him/herself in an emergency. its kinda sad that i still hear people asking for restore in shroud part 4/5

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Originally Posted by seldarin

In your original post mate, you said Cleric = healer, curse remover etc, etc, so lets readdress your thoughts on self centred and party play. To quote you about each character contributing, a cleric can heal and do all the other remove curse etc, but doesnt mean that if they arent doing that that they arent contributing in some way.

As far as skills go, lets look at that for a minute, the remove curse/disease etc, comes in a potion form as well as spell last time i checked, therefore EVERYONE has the availability to access it, so therefore can contribute to the group by buying some. Why be a lazy ass and rely on a cleric to do it all for you. Oh thats right you have them pigeonholed as a healer.

DDO is a group game as you pointed out, and a cleric can contribute quite adequately to a party without having to just stand there and remove that curse you have. If you have zerged off and left the cleric way behind, and you get cursed, what do you do? Im betting that based on you other posts that you would expect the cleric to be right there holding you hand and removed that curse for you.

Self sufficiency can make a quest go a lot easier. Do you expect clerics to carry numerous heal scrolls and mana pots, i would be guessing the answer is yes, so i dont really think its beyond a stretch for the faithful healer in your group to reasonably expect that you may use a little bit of that there plat you have in abundance to buy a few pots. After all you expect them to use their plat for scrolls rather than things that could be useful to them.

Please feel free to correct me if i am wrong there, but that is what i can gather from the nature of your posts.

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First off I did not post what you claim. Here is the post you refer to:

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Originally Posted by Deval

Cleric = healer, remover of curses, diseases, etc etc.

Build a bridge or dont run a cleric.

Lets see ya finish a raid without tanks!

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Note that Deval and Leyoni are not the same person.

Here is the relevant part concerning clerics from my second post to the thread -- made after Aranticus went off on his cleric tangent:

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Originally Posted by Leyoni

When I run my clerics (and I have none that are high level, I've only started them because I know there is a need for clerics) I don't whine about healing or removing curse or doing whatever else it takes to help the group.

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Note the part that reads "doing whatever else it takes to help the group." That is how I play this game, not complaining about others but doing whatever it takes to help the group succeed. No brownie points or props for that, it is just what people do who are less concerned about themselves than about the group's success.

The issue isn't whether people have access to alternatives for curse or blindness cures. It is the effectiveness of using the forum to rant about it and the immaturity of believing ranting will cause people to change their behavior.

Aranticus still has not answered the question -- did he complete the quests? By his own admission he was grouped in a PUG with at least 2 people who are relatively inexperienced. How does ranting on the forum help?

And, you also miss an important point -- pick up groups are what they are. You get whatever it is you get when you join one.

Like Aranticus, you shouldn't guess at what I expect because you are not good at it. This thread isn't about my expectations. It is about Aranticus carrying on like a cry-baby because he was in 2 PUGs where people were not prepared according to his definition of self sufficiency.

Now, Aranticus is one of Khyber's best known players. Let's ask him what he did before the quests started to help the newer and less experienced players prepare themselves? Did he say, "I've run this a zillion times and I know we are going to need transmuting weapons to by pass DR. How many of you have transmuters?" Did he say, "There aren't many shrines and the cleric is going to run out of mana. Everyone needs to stock up on pots or wands." Did he say, "This quest people get cursed a lot. Everyone needs to go buy curse removal pots so that they're ready."

No? Did he come to the forums to rant? Yes....

Ranting doesn't help. Helping helps -- in the game, at the time of the quest, with the people you are gaming with.

I've had people tell me "You need this or that" for a quest and if I have the means I go get what is needed. If I don't I ask if I'll be too much of a burden. I participate or leave group depending on the answers. But, since neither group was Aranticus's he doesn't have the right to complain. The most he should have done was a) offer his experience and b) either go along regardless of how the group responded or choose to drop group.

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Originally Posted by Aranticus

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Originally Posted by Leyoni

Let me repeat myself. You were in two pick up groups. You get what you get. Don't like it, don't play in PUGs. Complaining won't change anything.

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wrong, the top people in khyber frequently post in the forums. such behavior when highlighted make them more aware. when these people do not get into the raid groups, they will have no choice

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It looks to me like you were the one without a choice as you had nobody to group with other than the two pick up groups.

And, since you still haven't answered the question about completion we'll just accept that the answer is yes, you did complete. That means the people in the pick up groups didn't learn anything meaningful from you.

Then by blacklisting the people you ensure that they never get into groups where the might actually learn something of value. Sharing that with your buddies helps guarantee that the server dwindles to just you and them.

You already proved you don't have enough people to group with as it is -- after all, you were in two PUGs back-to-back and you need the players to round out raid groups (again by your own admission).

Seems unlikely that you'll be getting many converts using your methods but drive on with it.

Grouping with people that are prepared is easier than grouping with people that are not. I've been in 1.5-2 hour Shroud runs on my cleric with people that weren't prepared, and spent a stack of heal scrolls and many major mnemonics. I've been in 35 minute Shroud runs on my cleric where I spent nothing. Similar things can be said for just about any other quest.

Aranticus leads a lot of pugs. He sees a lot of people that are and are not prepared. He has seen first hand the difference it makes in the group's success. Success is more than just getting the completion.

Yes there are more factors than just being prepared. But being prepared is one of the easy ways to make a group more successful. Not the easiest, but certainly not the most difficult.

Ink

PS - I'm not saying I'm perfect. I have one character that is a joy to play because I have him tuned well -- both in equipment and support gear (potions, etc.) I have another character that I like to play, but isn't tuned at all -- that's the one that gets me in trouble and occasionally gets a bad name.

It looks to me as though some are so bored without having Shroud raids to run that they've decided to aspire to Goolie Award stature.

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Originally Posted by Deval

Cleric = healer, remover of curses, diseases, etc etc.

Build a bridge or dont run a cleric.

Lets see ya finish a raid without tanks!

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Unbelievable, man. Your words read like the post of someone who has never run a Cleric, before. A certain measure of self-sufficiency lends itself to more efficient team play. If you think the ideal tank is the walking target for writing on the whiteboard that it's the Cleric's job to erase, then I hope I'm never forced to group with you while I'm on my Cleric. Having three main melees, an active Cleric, a Rogue, and two capped casters (one Wizard, one Sorceress), I see the tank's job as follows:

1. Hold aggro.
2. Preserve the healer's mana pool.

It looks to me as though you have learned the first duty of playing a tank and tried hard to avoid learning the second.

People who exhibit the attitude you have are usually the ones who should feel morally obliged to roll a Cleric and play a healbot just in order to round out your life experience.

You didnt just use the top 40 melee thread as validation for an argument did you or say that most of the top players post in the forums? Both would be misleading, one is a popularity contest amongst mostly Riedran players who happen to me more outspoken and the other is generalization that favors the loud who surf the forums at work like me. Resume flame war.

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Originally Posted by Tulsa Doom

You didnt just use the top 40 melee thread as validation for an argument did you or say that most of the top players post in the forums? Both would be misleading, one is a popularity contest amongst mostly Riedran players who happen to me more outspoken and the other is generalization that favors the loud who surf the forums at work like me. Resume flame war.

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oh does that make me popular or loud.....? am i considered self suffcient or not?

I think all 3. Oh and Aussie says you are cute as well.

Good post, good original intention... sorry it digressed into reading comprehensions...

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Originally Posted by Boldrin

Lol, you mean like a wizard with only 180 HPs that doesn't cast fire prot and cold shield on himself when fighting the fire ellie?? :p
The fire ellie says" Hold on Orc, Gnoll, and Devil... I got the wizard prepped"

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ok this made me LOL.... prolly cause I have been there done that and got the t-shirt.... fire prot ran out and I didn't notice... I really am not gimpy I just don't always pay attention :p

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Originally Posted by Aranticus

if i heard correctly, the cleric told the wizard to go ahead and will keep him up. The fire ellie high fives the cleric "good job there helping me prep the wizard!"

you are basically saying the same thing, everyone should at least be able to take care of him/herself in an emergency. its kinda sad that i still hear people asking for restore in shroud part 4/5

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Didn't realize how few hit points you have , and am used to throwing heals on whe caster I'm healing down there. You got 1 or 2 shotted. But , as I said, if you're going to expect others to be self sufficient, ya gotta practice what ya preach :) Gotta mess with you cuz I'm bored and no Shroud, lol.

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Originally Posted by Tulsa Doom

I think all 3. Oh and Aussie says you are cute as well.

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yes i am the big winner!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

self-supprting I agree with, it allows the cleric to focus on actually keeping the group alive. That doesn't mean just throwing heals about, a well placed greater command or mass elemental protection is as much keeping in line with saving of the bacon as a heal.

It does seem sad when level 16 toon doesn't even have a lesser restore potion or a stack of cure serious wounds potions which are available at your friendly Qwijy-Mart for a substantial discount of the previously mentioned 8k plat per 100.

I am a big believer in self-sufficiency.

However, it's dog gone expensive! If you have to rely on pots (no wands) for healing it is very, very expensive.
Most of my chars are flat broke because of it.

But the game is so much more fun, when I don't have to beg to be healed by someone. (actualy I would never beg....I'd just stay in back and range or something if needed)

I was embarrassed the other day when I needed a remove curse on my monk. (darn turbine changed my enhancement so I can't remove my own curses)

I immediately went and bought 10 pots (about all I could aford after replenishing my CSW pots).

I am often amased by people who are unprepared. Granted Clerics are cheap, and inventory space limited. But a stack of 100 pots or a clickie on an otherwise useful item....especially things you know you will use. ......Come on.

Be a professional adventurer. Have the right tools. At least the commonly available ones.

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Originally Posted by Leyoni

It looks to me like you were the one without a choice as you had nobody to group with other than the two pick up groups.

And, since you still haven't answered the question about completion we'll just accept that the answer is yes, you did complete. That means the people in the pick up groups didn't learn anything meaningful from you.

Then by blacklisting the people you ensure that they never get into groups where the might actually learn something of value. Sharing that with your buddies helps guarantee that the server dwindles to just you and them.

You already proved you don't have enough people to group with as it is -- after all, you were in two PUGs back-to-back and you need the players to round out raid groups (again by your own admission).

Seems unlikely that you'll be getting many converts using your methods but drive on with it.

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i really find your train of thought funny, if i pug, then i must not have people to group with. there were plently of people to group with in fact i was with some players from twilight alliance (that is if you know who they are) before and after. did 1 titan and 3 vods today. unfortunately you could not have known and therefore twisted up some crappy excuse to validate your words

there are 2 kinds of players that are not familiar with ddo, newbs and noobs. newbs learn and i have my fair share of teaching them. they are willing to learn and tries to their best of abilities. noobs on the other hand are fixated in their ways and will not bludge from their ways. if actually pug as much and teach as much as i do, you will be able to differentiate that

the main question is, do you play on khyber?