Updated Death Penalty and Permanent Item Damage Changes

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Originally Posted by Riot

Riott's top 10.

10 Reasons you Repairman is going insane. (and subsequently why this system is BAD)

10 ) Repairing your bow from an Inflict Serious Wound Death.
9 ) Mending your belt from Finger of Death. (only living matter right?)
8 ) Repairing your gauntlets from a magic missile death. (always strike true eh?)
7 ) Repairing your Great Axe, from your Poisoned Con Loss Death.
6 ) Repairing your Muckbane after dieing from an ooze attack. (supposed to be immune right?)
5 ) Mending you cloak from the Phantasmal Force Accident.
4 ) Repairing your sword from your negative energy death.
3 ) Repairing you armor from the beating you took by a ghost.
2 ) Repairing your sheild from drowning.

and finally,

1 ) Repairing you boots because you got Vorpaled.

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Yes let's return to the xp penalty because it makes the most real world sense. In fact, I am sitting in a tavern right now trying to recoup my xp loss from when I got vorpalled at the grocery store and had to recall. If only the clerk hadn't rolled a 20 I'm pretty sure that my dr would have had me covered because I had on my +5 addy full plate of axeblock and actively blocking with my +5 addy tower shield and he only had a vorpal handaxe. (I think he might have had weapon finesse though he didn't look that strong but had good manual dexterity on the cash register). I tell you what, though, that is the LAST time I am going to Fred Meyer.

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Originally Posted by Lorien the First One

As for the XP, you misunderstand that system. XP is just a measure of your relative power and a way to scale your abiliities. The D&D system of level loss is designed to indicate that no one comes back whole from reserection, there is a cost to your spirit (well at least until True Res). The new debuff mimics that spirit nicely.

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I understand that XP plays different roles in D&D where you don't (usually) have to worry about capping and DDO where you do. They needed a new means to scale some penalty for dying and they've selected money as well as a quick level debuff. Basically you're now paying a percentage of your total equipment value for each death. Why people are seeking to rationalize this as a physical "that wouldn't happen" in their view of fantastical laws... I'm not sure.

I'm always game to throw out game based rationalizations for a change like this. Keeps things interesting.

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Originally Posted by Gratch

I understand that XP plays different roles in D&D where you don't (usually) have to worry about capping and DDO where you do. They needed a new means to scale some penalty for dying and they've selected money as well as a quick level debuff. Basically you're now paying a percentage of your total equipment value for each death. Why people are seeking to rationalize this as a physical "that wouldn't happen" in their view of fantastical laws... I'm not sure.

I'm always game to throw out game based rationalizations for a change like this. Keeps things interesting.

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Because it is much simpler to just pay for the material components used when you release back to the inn? 5000 gold or 10% of your cash- whichever is less- is simple, fair, and makes more sense.

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Originally Posted by The Raging Rodian!

Because it is much simpler to just pay for the material components used when you release back to the inn? 5000 gold or 10% of your cash- whichever is less- is simple, fair, and makes more sense.

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It wouldn't scale quite as well to the true "net worth" of the character, and would heavily encourage "plat mules" to hoard all your money. (Of course, then we could check "worth of account", but then we just end up with even more complicated solutions and ways to dodge around them.)

The current proposed system scales well because it automatically adjusts depending whether a character is a fully twinked out uber-lowbie, a true newbie wearing rags, a roleplayer that stops to visit all the sights and is still wearing that Masterwork Hide Armor because it just looks totally awesome, or the most extreme powergamer living on the edge with the best of the best gear.

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Originally Posted by Gratch

You're using "seriously" in a fantasy pen and paper game. You think using "serious physical laws" that most of your equipment shouldn't be destroyed much much faster than currently? Five giants just killed you and walked over your equipment... I'm sure nothing's bent. A warforged Titan just hit you with spinning laser blades causing forty kobold servant trying to pick up the pieces of the charisma cloak for 3 days... let's hope there's a good seamstress around.

So now you're going to tell me how it's magical equipment. Some form of fantastic materials that don't succumb to physical laws and instead use fantastic laws. If you're buying into that, then you can buy into your equipment getting trashed to a certain amount whenever the body inside it ceases to be. Whether the devs decide to code "fireball death equals damage to all equipment, but vorpal death just means your necklace is 100% damaged with a high chance of armor damage" vs. "all your items take a small amount of damage" is their choice.

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Wait. This is fantasy?

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Originally Posted by Eladrin

It wouldn't scale quite as well to the true "net worth" of the character, and would heavily encourage "plat mules" to hoard all your money. (Of course, then we could check "worth of account", but then we just end up with even more complicated solutions and ways to dodge around them.)

The current proposed system scales well because it automatically adjusts depending whether a character is a fully twinked out uber-lowbie, a true newbie wearing rags, a roleplayer that stops to visit all the sights and is still wearing that Masterwork Hide Armor because it just looks totally awesome, or the most extreme powergamer living on the edge with the best of the best gear.

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That's why there needs to be an end to twinking- but that's another matter.

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Originally Posted by The Raging Rodian!

Because it is much simpler to just pay for the material components used when you release back to the inn? 5000 gold or 10% of your cash- whichever is less- is simple, fair, and makes more sense.

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They wanted a means for the monetary amount to scale based upon character. Your equipped gear is a fairly accurate measure of how much free cash you have. A level 2 twinked to the teeth is going to pay more for repairs than a level 2 with a +1 sword and armor and the rest starter gear. Why? Because the twinked level 2 got fed from somewhere and if the penalty were the the same amount for each the twinked character(or plat buyer) could more readily afford the fee.

With your system I would mail ALL money to a mule so my "fee" for dying would be 10% of the 400 gold I pulled out of the chest, or 40 gold. That removes a bunch of incentive to prevent dying. In this system, not only is it costing you plat, but if you die too much in one quest you loose the use of some of your gear till you can repair.

I'm happy about the changes now. We won't take perma damage when we repair after death, so that problem is solved. The rest is simply the debt incured when you die. Its negative, yet not something that will upset the whole community. If its going to have to change, this current system I'm fine with. Thanks for working hard on getting the best system for us Eldrin!

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Originally Posted by The Raging Rodian!

That's why there needs to be an end to twinking- but that's another matter.

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End? I'd love it, but maybe a reduction in it would be more palatable to some of our player base.

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Originally Posted by Mercules

End? I'd love it, but maybe a reduction in it would be more palatable to some of our player base.

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A shame too. It would end yet another problem in the game.

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Originally Posted by The Raging Rodian!

That's why there needs to be an end to twinking- but that's another matter.

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Why yes, let's make your already-tricky proposal even more complicated and an even larger departure from the existing game system and almost inevitably alienate the vast majority of the playerbase.

Sounds like a perfect plan!





:rolleyes:

So if we log off now, will our Gear REPAIR ITSELF?

You did it for XP, turn about is fair play.

I must say, that the whole "repair bill is related to "net worth"" is a bit disturbing.
I think some people are under the wrong assumption, that great gear = great wealth.

Um,,, WRONG.

I don't do pointless loot runs for cash. Why? because it's boring!
Playing a quest to regain XP is one thing.... You want to talk about fun, lets talk.

It's more FUN, to regain XP on any ole quest.

It's LESS fun to quest to Earn Cash, because I failed a posion save, got all my gear broken from doing so (Don't ask how),
And have to pay someone to fix it!!!

That's called work.

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Originally Posted by MysticTheurge

Why yes, let's make your already-tricky proposal even more complicated and an even larger departure from the existing game system and almost inevitably alienate the vast majority of the playerbase.

Sounds like a perfect plan!





:rolleyes:

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AMEN *stands in pews*

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Originally Posted by Wulf Ratbane

I'm thinking arterial spray, here.

Nothing a little Febreeze can't handle.

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I was thinking, with no head you can't see where your going...

Stepped in something is my bet.

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Originally Posted by MysticTheurge

Why yes, let's make your already-tricky proposal even more complicated and an even larger departure from the existing game system and almost inevitably alienate the vast majority of the playerbase.

Sounds like a perfect plan!
:rolleyes:

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Already tricky? It's based on the 3.5 rulebook. That's a departure?

And like it or not eliminating twinking would fix alot of in game problems. Too bad it would be so hard to implement.

The undercurrent in this system is to bleed cash out of the economy, make characters bind more gear, and "charge" characters for having too much stuff. That sounds an awful lot like trying to fix existing mistakes in giving us too much gear and letting us pass it around too easily. I'm not that far off the mark, I'm just blunter about saying it.

Say I've had a heavy evening of questing and I know I've got some wear related damage (e.g. I whacked a few slimes by accident) and I also know I have some death related damage (e.g. Kargon rushed into a room shouting TASTYYY HAAAAM and wiped the party... it happens). Because this is my vorpal greaxaxe of disruption I'm repairing, I decide to go to the expert dwarven repair lady at the Desert.

My question is - does the repair bill come to the total that it would have been for the permanent damage plus the death related damage, or am I charged the normal price for death related damage but expert prices for the slime-related damage. I worry that if there are a lot of deaths mixed in with some real damage, I'm going to be paying far more for my repairs because I want to use the expert repair. Can I repair the death related damage (with no chance of perm dmg) at a normal repair person then repair the wear related damage at the dwarven lady?

Grateful for a clarification on this point.

Regards,

Garth

p.s. creds to the devs for the great communication we've had this week.

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Originally Posted by Riot

So if we log off now, will our Gear REPAIR ITSELF?

You did it for XP, turn about is fair play.

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No, the point is to avoid players logging off to fix their debt. Instead their is an instant way to fix the problem, which did not exist under the xp system.

I would have loved this when I let my 8 year old son finish a favor run on Healing Elixir the other day. He managed to get my 14 level WF wizzard killed by one of the scorpions from the lever I told him not to pull. He is relegated to his 6 level Pally on another server til the penalty change then I might consider letting him solo some stuff with my high level toons.

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Originally Posted by Riot

I think some people are under the wrong assumption, that great gear = great wealth.

Um,,, WRONG.

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This is true - my main fighter, Araina has the SOS, the Invader's Ring, the BAM gorget, the Kundarak Shield, +5 adamantine FP that she traded a wizard a wizardry item for, +5 mithril tower shield that she looted...etc, etc and guess what...she's never had more than 12k plat.

Being self-sufficient costs money and is a good money sink.

Just because you've pulled good stuff NOT from loot running but rather from repeating high end quests on elite to help others get raid ready, get 1750, etc, etc does not mean that you have an abundance of wealth.

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Originally Posted by The Raging Rodian!

Already tricky?

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Your response to Eladrin's "It would be complicated" was "Well add this too!"

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Originally Posted by The Raging Rodian!

That's why there needs to be an end to twinking- but that's another matter.

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Amen brother!

But it won't happen any time soon. Look at the outcry we had when they tried to make even the teensiest tinyest adjustment to the economy with the last iteration of the DP. And even now we have people complaining over a totally optional system they don't even HAVE to use because it would limit their ability to twink.

Any attempt to take away the "right" to twink is going to result in a massive outcry and about a million "I'm leaving!!!!" posts, hehe.