Armor Up - Developer Diary #2

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Originally Posted by Scrabbler

I suggest what they do for that is put a toggle on the Skirmisher enhancement. Toggling it on will enable SWF feats with a Buckler, but disable the benefits of Shield-specific feats.

That would mean that normal Buckler Swashbucklers would have to choose at character planning if they want SWF, or Shield Mastery + Shield Bash.

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Sorry Scrabbler, but why? Do you think its soo powerfull for a bard to use the buckler and take Shield feats as well to benefit from both? If you make it so that you can't use both SWF and shields together, you can just as well drop the option to use bucklers (and what then about orbs in the off hand, as they currently work pretty much the same "shield" wise?). A buckler still offers little in defence, as it does not get much in the way of PRR or MRR even after this change. If a Bard spends a lot of their feats on it, let them. They still have to use only light weapons to stay in swashbuckler stance as well as light armors or robes/outfits

The buckler + light weapon choice is Key/central to the idea of the swashbuckler, if Turbine takes it away a couple of months after introducing it, why introduce swash at all in the first place?

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Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer

Even with a band-aid exception like that, it still doesn't make sense for SWF swashbucklers to be the only build in the game (other then bastard swords) that can combine 2 separate combat feat lines.
If SWF is too weak without shield mastery, then buff SWF.
If its swashbucklers that are too weak without shield mastery, then buff swashbucklers.

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I really don't see the issue with Swashbuckler and using "2 seperate combat feat lines", actually it was specifically DESIGNED to do that by offering a way to get SWF AND use something in your offhand (provided you limit yourself to light weapons and armor).
Yes, maybe its a good solution to avoid bucklers getting the added melee power. Maybe a better option is to just change the enhancement you can take (but who would take it if it can't be used with shield mastery?) to state this enhancement does not allow you to profit from the melee power newly added to the feat while using a buckler nor orb and being in swashbuckler stance.

250% damage for free... This really feels like a bad idea. Up until now i've been looking at it logically, but it doesn't feel good.

A lvl28 dps deals about 2000 damage per second. that's easily 10 times as much as a lvl20 did before epics. I'm fine with that actually, I'm not that concerned with power creep an sich. We are almost demigods.
Part of it is that thunderforged weapons deal 5 times as much damage as greensteels did.
Other gear improved likewise
Another part is destinies
More feats, ability increases, tomes etc. means better characters
etc.
(I mean Overwhelming Critical basically just says "+10% base damage", but is way way more interesting and a very popular feat.)
But just saying you now do 2.5x damage? It destroyes the magic of it and exposes the ugly number game beneath.

I'm sure I am a hypocrite in this; as you level you just gain saves and %HP as well.
Many games work the same way with 'strength' increasing a power modifier, or actually a class-bound predetermined 'governing ability'. But I have never seen a game with as good a multiclassing system as ddo, mostly because of that.
Making us choose between MP, RP or SP will not be good for the game. caster/melee hybrids by no means dominate the game so disturbing this balance that is achieved with feat and gear choices would be bad.
But at the same time granting power with no choice is even worse.
The solution really is to not do it.

Yes it is elegant. I usually adhere to the notion that elegance is almost always the right answer when designing games.
But my gut feeling screams 'cheesy'

You can still make explicit the power from blitz/action boosts (and have thise abilities scale on it. noone knows now what does and what does not scale with % increases, so you have carte blanche on that)
But the +150% autogrant... it's horrible.
Like I said before, "scales 100% with melee power" doesn't actually scale compared to regular melee damage.
And 6d6 that scales 200% with melee power can just as easily be written as "6d6 + 4 per epic level" to achieve the same effect.(2.5x as strong @28)

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Originally Posted by Wizza

They should be fair.

You wanna give melees 90% free damage and casters 10 Spell power? No. This is why this whole thing is pointless. Either they come up with something that is fair for every class and thus making Epic levels relevant in a fair amount for everyone or they don't. There is no middle ground here. There is no "we will give free 90% damage to someone and 1% damage to someone else".

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What do you mean fair for every class. Apart from the fact that casters are not having any issue at all (though some destinies could use some work) They are not buffing the top end strength of melee at all in terms of raw power.

To ask for an increase in usp similar to what is happening with the redistribution of power would require one destiny to have a huge single innate bonus to spell power that could be maintained thoughout a quest. It would then need to be reduced so that anyone using that destiny ability would not be able to benefit any more in total damage output than they are now.

This redistribution will mean that those forced to masters blitz because it is 350% damage output will have other options. This is still likely to be close to the max damage output but allows other destinys to be used without overall feeling of horrid dps.

The top dps will still be about the same. The difference between top dps and other dps will be just much much less.

Now if they would only get in there and have barbarian rage add to melee power :)

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Originally Posted by Severlin

My response was specifically to your concern that players could gain the benefit of both SWF and the Shield feats. None of those will make the Shield feats work.

Anyway the ability to take both SWF and the shield feats is a bug that should be fixed when these changes go into effect.

Sev~

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Originally Posted by Severlin

We will look into the specific case of Swashbucklers with bucklers to make sure they don't get the shield feats as well as SWF.

Sev~

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The more I think about this^ the more I think my goodness do your departments even talk to each other? I was on Lammania alot for Swashbuckler. No where did any dev mention the shield feats could not be taken with SWF and there was much discussion by the players about using said feats with SWF and Swashbuckling with bucklers and with orbs. If the issue is the new melee power concept, than exclude bucklers from the melee power gained by shield feats please. Its highly unlikely after this course of changes that a Stalwart defender or Paladin will even give a buckler a glance. Why allow the use of bucklers to Swashbucklers if you are then going to turn around and cripple their usefulness by disallowing the feats? What purpose does that serve?

There was some talk by devs about adding new named bucklers to a variety of levels to the game, during the Lammania Swashbuckler discussions, is that still planned? If so, and you still plan on disallowing the shield feats with SWF, then you had better make them extra special or its all wasted effort.

By the way, Swashbuckler is incredibly popular on live, alot of people have made alts or willingly even happily respecced characters to play that tree... there will be backlash at having to respec again so soon after because you guys didn't plan ahead or communicate or whatever the issue may be.

I'm glad I waited to reconfigure my pure bard.

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Originally Posted by noinfo

What do you mean fair for every class. Apart from the fact that casters are not having any issue at all (though some destinies could use some work) They are not buffing the top end strength of melee at all in terms of raw power.

To ask for an increase in usp similar to what is happening with the redistribution of power would require one destiny to have a huge single innate bonus to spell power that could be maintained thoughout a quest. It would then need to be reduced so that anyone using that destiny ability would not be able to benefit any more in total damage output than they are now.

This redistribution will mean that those forced to masters blitz because it is 350% damage output will have other options. This is still likely to be close to the max damage output but allows other destinys to be used without overall feeling of horrid dps.

The top dps will still be about the same. The difference between top dps and other dps will be just much much less.

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What. They are giving all melees 150% free damage boost. Add on top of that that they can now use Adrenaline/Divine Crusader/every other destiny.

Not even responding to the buff for casters once again. I made myself clear, read further.

You know what they should have done to make people have other options? Make those other options better. Weird right?

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Originally Posted by Wizza

What. They are giving all melees 150% free damage boost. Add on top of that that they can now use Adrenaline/Divine Crusader/every other destiny.

Not even responding to the buff for casters once again. I made myself clear, read further.

You know what they should have done to make people have other options? Make those other options better. Weird right?

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wow, so they add 150 power to other destinys while maintain the max at around 250 in the hope that other destinys will be used? oh no. adding mêlée power is a way to buff all areas neatly without nerfiing others. will other destinys still need work or balancing? yes and devs have said as much. 350% damage seems to be the revs goal for max cps across all mêlée destinies and I don't have any problem with that, now you might see some variation at least.

The problem with many EDs and some pre are not that some of the abilities are poor themselves but that they didn't stack up damage wise to LD. or in the case of pre scale to epic. this should address this.

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Originally Posted by noinfo

wow, so they add 150 power to other destinys while maintain the max at around 250 in the hope that other destinys will be used? oh no. adding mêlée power is a way to buff all areas neatly without merging others. will other destinys still need work or balancing? yes and devs have said as much. 350% damage seems to be the revs goal for max cps across all mêlée destinies and I don't have any problem with that, now you might see some variation at least.

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Yes, and I don't think this is the way to go ;) I'd rather have cooler and more useful abilities in the other EDs than a flat out dps increase. Not saying that MP is a bad thing per se, just saying I don't like how and how much they are adding it for free with epic levels.

I'd rather them work on Shadowdancer, Magister, Primal Avatar and Fatesinger specifically to make them much stronger than just giving melees 150 MP.

The problem with the game is not only melee power.

The EE setting need a complete overhaul.

Have you tried taking a level 20 character into EE lord of dust, with old epic gear or the forgotten realm level 20 to 22 gear? The mobs can almost instant kill a character when they hit for 300-400 per swing and the Character has little to no prr and or dodge gear to soak in the damage or to deal damage?

Then you take the same character, now at level 28 with all new level 27 and 28 gear, into EE Wheloon and stormhorm. The character all of a sudden is a lot more powerful and mobs melts away in a matter of seconds.

The current difficulty of the game is caused by imbalance of gear and EE settings at the different level of content. If you have people giving feedback using out dated gear, the result is going to be to give more attack power to help with the higher level contents.

Eberron EE settings have to be tone down a bit to reflect the gear, player has access to, at level 20 to 23.

I am not against giving melee power via innate ability to help out other less used Epic Destinies, but there is a lot more involved than giving more melee power with so many variables in play. The current proposal will make the end game (level 26+ content) on EE a snooze fest and EN and EH will be easier than current EC.

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Originally Posted by Nascoe

Sorry Scrabbler, but why? Do you think its soo powerfull for a bard to use the buckler and take Shield feats as well to benefit from both?

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Given that Shield feats need to be increased in power, yes I do think it's too powerful to let someone take both. Not too powerful against other classes, but too powerful against Bards who take only one or the other. I don't want to push Swashbucklers into feeling like they need to equip shields and train two lines of feats in order to have competitive DPS with other Swashbucklers.

Keep in mind that one way or another, the devs will have to buff S&B Fighters to have similar DPS to Bard Swashbucklers. My suggestion is based on assuming the Shield feats are getting improved that much.

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Originally Posted by Nascoe

The buckler + light weapon choice is Key/central to the idea of the swashbuckler, if Turbine takes it away a couple of months after introducing it, why introduce swash at all in the first place?

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1. The key/central aspect to the Swashbuckler concept is having an empty offhand, 2. This wouldn't take it away. If they prefer S&B feats they can use them, if not they don't have to.

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Originally Posted by Wizza

Yes, and I don't think this is the way to go ;) I'd rather have cooler and more useful abilities in the other EDs than a flat out dps increase. Not saying that MP is a bad thing per se, just saying I don't like how and how much they are adding it for free with epic levels.

I'd rather them work on Shadowdancer, Magister, Primal Avatar and Fatesinger specifically to make them much stronger than just giving melees 150 MP.

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Well no one is saying it but has anyone given any thought to how this affects players without access to EPIC Destinies? Giving a set amount of mp per epic level not only gives more boost to the levels themselves but it is also a boost to players who have not yet purchased epic destinies for whatever reason.

I would still rather be able to make choices about what my character receives each epic level.

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Originally Posted by Scrabbler

Given that Shield feats need to be increased in power, yes I do think it's too powerful to let someone take both. Not too powerful against other classes, but too powerful against Bards who take only one or the other. I don't want to push Swashbucklers into feeling like they need to equip shields and train two lines of feats in order to have competitive DPS with other Swashbucklers.

Keep in mind that one way or another, the devs will have to buff S&B Fighters to have similar DPS to Bard Swashbucklers. My suggestion is based on assuming the Shield feats are getting improved that much.


1. The key/central aspect to the Swashbuckler concept is having an empty offhand, 2. This wouldn't take it away. If they prefer S&B feats they can use them, if not they don't have to.

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I presume you have not been active part of the quite active discussion about swashbucklers and testing it on lamannia then Scrabbler, because SWF as such is about fighting with only one hand, the swashbucklers point was about allowing them to use the Bucklers.
This was discussed umpteen times and fine-tuned to give a choice for Bards what to put in their hands, ranging from nothing to orbs, and bucklers. You get doublestrike/-shot + extra damage from not using anything, or you get dodge from the buckler, BECAUSE you also have the option to take the feat if you want it. That is the choice, and it means not taking something else you will need if you do take the shield feat(s) (its not as if bards have that many feat choices, so it IS a trade off if you take them.

I fully understand and support that a bard with a Buckler does not need any more boosting currently from upgrading shield feats, but that is best addressed by either having part of it not apply to bucklers (one suggestion offered above) nor to orbs really. Or address it explicitly in the enhancement that the melee power boost does not apply or something.
Many people recently have happily picked up bard levels, started making swashbucklers with orbs, with throwing weapons and with bucklers - we even got 2 new bucklers added to the game specifically for this - and now you want to take away the new toys?

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Originally Posted by Nascoe

I presume you have not been active part of the quite active discussion about swashbucklers and testing it on lamannia then Scrabbler, because SWF as such is about fighting with only one hand, the swashbucklers point was about allowing them to use the Bucklers.

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Of course that's incorrect on both points.

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Originally Posted by Nascoe

You get doublestrike/-shot + extra damage from not using anything, or you get dodge from the buckler, BECAUSE you also have the option to take the feat if you want it.

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The dominant focus of the Skirmisher enhancement is that you have the option to use a Buckler item, not that you can also activate Shield feats at the same time as SWF.

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Originally Posted by Nascoe

I fully understand and support that a bard with a Buckler does not need any more boosting currently from upgrading shield feats, but that is best addressed

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The best way is by disallowing the use of any two kinds of combat style feats at the same time, such as SWF and S&B.

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Originally Posted by Nascoe

Many people recently have happily picked up bard levels, started making swashbucklers with orbs, with throwing weapons and with bucklers - we even got 2 new bucklers added to the game specifically for this - and now you want to take away the new toys?

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As I already said, I don't want to take away Bucklers. I'd let those players make the choice of using SWF or S&B feats. If the S&B feats aren't good enough for that option to be appealing, then that's the problem.

I am liking the new melee power granted each epic level, as I believe tying this into melee trees only (like some suggest) is a horrible idea. There was a time when characters who were a mix of magic/melee/and ranged were playable, over time that has devolved.


Why are Fury and Dreadnought so popular? Well lets see= they are the ONLY 2 trees that affect both ranged and melee. THE ONLY TWO.


Just because I can use a bow, doesn't mean I want to feel forced to use it 24/7 and same with melee. Every other destiny tries to pigeon hole you into 1 style of attack. I think EVERY destiny should have at least SOME viability to a second combat style.


Unpopular combat trees=
1. Grandmaster= Unscalling lilly petals that are always saved against for 1/2 damage even with a 80 wisdom, epic moment has a lower save and longer cooldown then Wail of Banshee. PASS (use this tree for twists only)
2. Primal Avatar= Aside from twists, the only melee this offers is +1 crit multi OR evasion, NOT BOTH. Epic moment is considered garbage due to a horrendous attack speed.
3. Fatesinger= This IS actually in part a melee tree, but fails at that. Its epic moment is weak with a long cooldown and doesn't work on bosses. ***?!
4. Shiradi= Aside from Shuriken users and Casters this tree fails for bows (easy fix would be to up % chance of procs for bows), no support for melee what so ever. Giving a 3-4% chance to proc on melee would be cool.

On the same token disabling ranged with Fury or Dreadnought will mean NO ONE will have a viable melee and ranged, you will either be one or the other.


If you want gameplay like that go play WoW or something.

I recently made a Con for damage based dwarf 12barb/6ftr/2rog. My question to the Devs is how will the melee power changes affect such builds? Just wondering is all.

One of the discussions here is revolving around whether or not an automatic increase to melee damage through epic levels is a good idea. I'd like to just toss something out there.

Let's say it's not automatic and the only source of melee power is options within the destiny trees. If the destiny tree carries all the power and 3 to 4 options in the tree have melee power attached to them would you feel you actually have a choice? Would anyone actually choose to have 50% less damage than someone else by skipping those options? We'd pretty much be forced into taking those options. On the flip-side if every option has melee power so we end up nearly at the same amount no matter what we choose then it may as well be an automatic thing granted with epic levels and just leave it out of the trees.

Part of me thinks the only way it can really work is when there's a real choice, which might mean you can choose your new Cleave with +3 crit multiplier and +1 crit range, or you can choose +15 melee power, but you don't get both on the same choice. That would be the purely evil way of doing the trees so there's actually choices involved, and I'm probably going to regret making that suggestion some point down the road :)

After reading through, I have a couple comments/concerns/questions:

1. I am still really uncertain whether I like the idea of melee/ranged power in general. I know you stated that it is just an idea that is already in game and being fleshed out in regards to melee and ranged power. Can you (as in Sev) give us a more detailed explanation with examples of how this is the same as what we have? I get the argument over spellpower being the same, but I don't really think it is the same entirely from a power standpoint, for many reasons, so examples that are melee/ranged based would be great.

2. I do, however, know that I strongly dislike separating melee and ranged power into two different things. My understanding from what has been posted already is that melee and ranged power will be different, in different EDs, and specified on items. I hate that. First of all, it removes some of the flexibility of EDs and funnels all ranged or melee toons into specific EDs. While one can argue they already lean one way or the other, I prefer people be able to be creative and think outside the box. The other huge problem with it is that it hurts those toons that swap back and forth, particularly rangers. Flexibility between ranged and melee is built into the ranger trees and feats. If I have to have two sets of "power" just to keep up with everyone else, why would I choose a flexible build instead of the FotM build? If I have to choose one ED and lose tons of power on the other end, again why would I? It limits our ability to be flexible in our builds, playstyle, and situationally in dungeons, and I don't think that's good for the game. Power using a weapon should not be divided up.

3. Aside from my dislike of the division, is your intention with ranged power to have it apply also to thrown weapons? There is too much in game that applies to ranged and not thrown already, and there isn't much to make up the difference.

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Originally Posted by Severlin

We will look into the specific case of Swashbucklers with bucklers to make sure they don't get the shield feats as well as SWF.

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This would be a terrible decision, because bards are already feat starved, and 2 feats + 1 twist is a high enough opportunity cost to justify leaving it in. Youll be nerfing doublestrike and survivability from something that already qualifies for it in every single other way, other than the arbitrary "we cant allow you have these both at the same time". Right now builds have them both and the game isnt more broken than it already was before.

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Originally Posted by Severlin

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k4...ps672faef7.jpg[/URL]
Anyway the ability to take both SWF and the shield feats is a bug that should be fixed when these changes go into effect.

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http://i59.tinypic.com/2mo8gop.png

According to this, which is how the in game description on the enhancement, and wiki descriptions read, it is not a bug, as skirmisher allows you to specifically use bucklers with SWF.