U45 Preview 1: Balance: Ranged Combat Changes

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Originally Posted by capsela

Heavy armor users getting one shot in high reaper doesn't make sense. PRR acts the same for cloth and armor regardless.

The PRR values wearing armor should not be on the same scale as cloth.

Keep the current PRR values in place for cloth and make a seperate PRR scale for amor. Pushing the damage reduction to 90%. So at least armor users could be hit more than once and not be instantly killed in high reaper.

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I agree with intent, but tying it to heavy armor has a number of problems. Most noticeably, nearly all casters can run around in heavy armor + tower shield with minor loss. Meanwhile, all light melee, and even some melee meant to be tanky like Mountain Stance monks, would be screwed. One either need to find fixes for these issues, or tie it to some other mechanic. I suggested earlier that they give increased %DR while swinging a weapon or actively blocking. That means they aren't casting spells or shooting stuff. Optionally they can increase DR when not shooting or casting, but that will let DC or burst nukers have it up most of the time.

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Originally Posted by catfumaster

Ranged combat in all forms suffers from the same balance issue vs melee combat; full damage from any distance. To get any of its damage a melee must be within melee range (IE close enough to trade blows with the enemy) while a ranged build can do all of its damage from anywhere like say including a safe spot. It's a risk versus reward situation that has never been addressed. Things like Inquisitive only amplify that inequity. Inquisitive needs to be re-balanced against other ranged builds and all range builds need to re-balanced against melee.

The changes listed here for IPS and AF aren't really reflective of the issues. A damage penalty for ranged combat based on distance to target is far more appropriate and would allow for more balance between ranged styles. Give a progressive damage penalty to each ranged weapon type that's harsher for some than others and overall encourages ranged players to move in closer to targets to get full damage. A hierarchy of the range weapon types of something like Throwing -> Light Repeating Crossbows -> Light Crossbows/Heavy Repeating Crossbows -> Heavy Crossbows -> Great Crossbows/Shortbows -> Longbows, for a scale of highest penalty for distance -> lowest penalty. Give Throwing weapons a bonus to damage at extreme close ranges. IPS stance increases these distance penalties and AF can reduce those penalties. Add some tweaks to underused enhancement trees like Deepwood Stalker to give them an identity which benefits from this system.

Players need to realize that IPS gives you full attacks vs everything in your line of fire. Cleaves being a single weapon attacks with no benefit from double-strike are woefully far behind that damage rate. At high difficulties cleaves are more of a liability than a boon while IPS remains a constant application of the character's full damage. Not to mention it operates best in ranged's best defense mode, running away. I don't want ranged to have zero aoe damage but we have be realisitc about how it balances out. While I don't like the lazy 20% they are imposing on it, IPS needs some kind of check on its power in place.

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You mean like the one that already exists, Point Blank Shot?

IPS gives me full attacks vs everything in my line of fire, that doesn't dip an inch or so below the target I'm actually aiming at, or isn't 1 or 2 degrees off that line, you mean. You can miss a kobold while shooting at an ogre, even if they're in a direct line from you. How often does that happen with Great Cleave? Wait, I have an answer, since my melee fvs actually uses it: It only happens if my attack roll misses, given the same circumstances as listed here, within range. Players, and developers, apparently, need to realize that there are downsides to IPS, in that it doesn't always hit targets in a line, and that all it takes is a slight dip in the terrain, or a size difference, Gods help you if it's both, to negate the benefits. This has been a thing forever, in so far as my time here is concerned. It's not the same as tab targeting in range and pushing a button for Cleave based attacks, you have to actually work to line up effective use of the feat. Then there's the whole "in a line" thing. If Great Cleave isn't 360 degrees, it's close to it. IPS is in a straight line in front of you.

Simple Thrown Weapon Expertise: Requires 13 Dexterity: You are skilled with the use of Simple Thrown Weapons (Throwing Daggers and Darts) and while using one, you gain Doubleshot equal to your Dexterity.

So are bows like long bows and short bows going to be getting this type of feat long bows and short bows are in need of help a deepwood sniper or arcane archer is at the very bottom of dps and your going to nerf more of their dps trying to even Inquisitor i realy hope you do somthing more with longbow users +1 competent crit modifier is insignificant if any thing


You are going to loss alot of players in ddo because of your foolishness

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Originally Posted by Lynnabel

This is false.

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I don't know what you're doing this update, or plan to do in the future. I don't read minds or control your future actions.

But I fully stand by, "history has shown". I've been seeing it happen for a decade. It is not false.

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Originally Posted by Lynnabel

Saying stuff like this makes it really hard to get good feedback.

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How do I in anyway control or prevent anyone else from giving whatever feedback they want? That's rhetorical; I don't.

Devs:

Please put an end to this madness.

There is no reason to nerf all ranged builds just because Inquisitive is "over performing".

Adjust Inquisitive, and only Inquisitive if you feel it is OP. Ranged (except for bows) were fine before Inquisitive came along.

One of my ranged toons is currently an Inqusitive and is competitive, but not OP compared to various other current strong builds in the game, IMO. There are many builds that outperform Inquisitive builds in terms of both DPS and kills per unit time.

Your proposed changes, taken together, will ruin ranged combat. Across the board. As well as taking away something that weak DPS builds, like healers, could at least have some decent DPS with little invested.

Oh well, I guess it is back to a caster.

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Originally Posted by Steelstar

To be very clear, the change to IPS does not specifically have to do with Inquisitive overperforming. It is the result of evaluating the way that Ranged Weapon Users interact with the overall build meta and (especially) melees.

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In other words, your were questing with a ranged toon that killed stuff before you got to it. Have you played with a Wizard or Sorcerer lately?

You don't get to add "challenge" to the game by making mobs 1 shot a non-tank melee AND be surprised when the meta shifts to "don't get near the bad guys." If you're trying to design the game to encourage melee play, maybe stop making content that 1 shots 90% of melee characters? You don't even need to be on R10 to see this. Go hop in Legendary Tempest Spine on Elite as a non-tank melee and see how fun it is.

I gotta ask:

Have you played any high skull reapers on Live? Were there any Sorcs in your party? Did they clear 98% of the dungeon by themselves? Cuz this has been my experience recently, even as a big bad scary Inquisitive.

The fact that you feel the need to nerf Inquisitive BEFORE you address the glaring issue of DPS casting is mind boggling. I.E. par for the course.

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Originally Posted by CaptainSpacePony

Why reduce Dual Xbow DS by 1/3? Why not 1/2? That's more inline with repeaters getting a 2/3 penalty.

2 xbows = 2x as many shots so 50% makes sense to me.

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They do not have twice the rof. That's why. Imo I think they might have gone a tad overboard on the nerds, less dice, less dice scaling, lower reload speed, reload animation on nhb, AND 66% doubleshot seems a bit overkill.

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Originally Posted by Xanthrawl

In other words, your were questing with a ranged toon that killed stuff before you got to it. Have you played with a Wizard or Sorcerer lately?

You don't get to add "challenge" to the game by making mobs 1 shot a non-tank melee AND be surprised when the meta shifts to "don't get near the bad guys." If you're trying to design the game to encourage melee play, maybe stop making content that 1 shots 90% of melee characters? You don't even need to be on R10 to see this. Go hop in Legendary Tempest Spine on Elite as a non-tank melee and see how fun it is.

I gotta ask:

Have you played any high skull reapers on Live? Were there any Sorcs in your party? Did they clear 98% of the dungeon by themselves? Cuz this has been my experience recently, even as a big bad scary Inquisitive.

The fact that you feel the need to nerf Inquisitive BEFORE you address the glaring issue of DPS casting is mind boggling. I.E. par for the course.

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Yeah unless melee get more of a boost than we see here I expect to see a lot more sorcs come the patch that used to be inquisitive. It's not like sorc is much harder.... Dbf and meteor swarm ftw!

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Originally Posted by Ashlayna

You mean like the one that already exists, Point Blank Shot?

IPS gives me full attacks vs everything in my line of fire, that doesn't dip an inch or so below the target I'm actually aiming at, or isn't 1 or 2 degrees off that line, you mean. You can miss a kobold while shooting at an ogre, even if they're in a direct line from you. How often does that happen with Great Cleave? Wait, I have an answer, since my melee fvs actually uses it: It only happens if my attack roll misses, given the same circumstances as listed here, within range. Players, and developers, apparently, need to realize that there are downsides to IPS, in that it doesn't always hit targets in a line, and that all it takes is a slight dip in the terrain, or a size difference, Gods help you if it's both, to negate the benefits. This has been a thing forever, in so far as my time here is concerned. It's not the same as tab targeting in range and pushing a button for Cleave based attacks, you have to actually work to line up effective use of the feat. Then there's the whole "in a line" thing. If Great Cleave isn't 360 degrees, it's close to it. IPS is in a straight line in front of you.

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I am keenly aware of all of these issues and yet IPS is still too strong. Its like saying my machine gun with armor piercing rounds is a little hard to aim but that dude with a baseball bat can bonk a few guys on the head so I should be left alone. Mobs naturally fall into a line when you kite making IPS more and more effective while removing you from harm; while cleave requires a tighter cluster of mobs to be its most effective increasing harm. Add in the many abilities which reduce mob movement speed and its even easier. There are no real ranged specific checks in things like champions or reapers so you are free to make Ben Franklin super jealous of all your kiting.

Cleaves only hit an arc in front of you, have a limited affect range and again place you in direct harm while being effectively weaker than regular attacks from the same weapon. Cleaves also: have a cool down, can't be used with special attacks and don't double strike while IPS is: constant, can be used with special attacks (IE Hunt's End) and can double shot.

There are some ranged tracking issues in the game engine that do need to be addressed but that can't hold back looking at an already over performing feat. By your own admission fixing this stuff will only make it more powerful.

Pointblank shot is a whole 1[W] extra damage. But sure that could be buffed to better fit with what I suggested.

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Originally Posted by Deathmaster35

Have you ever considered the fact that the world doesnt revolve around you? Please take the time to make constructive feedback as right now all of your posts make you sound like a spoiled entitled child that is throwing a tantrum because you cant get your way. I dont think you have left a single bit of constructive feedback in this entire thread, you are just crying and making gross exaggerations, which is not helping the situation at all.

These changes are bad and we need constructive feedback, not hyperbole

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You are party right, we do need constructive feedback. Problem is, you quoted a guy who might not just be the Sarlona expert on bows, but maybe even game wide. He is on the PC and does provide lots of feedback. Problem is, they tend to ignore it.

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Originally Posted by Xanthrawl

In other words, your were questing with a ranged toon that killed stuff before you got to it. Have you played with a Wizard or Sorcerer lately?

You don't get to add "challenge" to the game by making mobs 1 shot a non-tank melee AND be surprised when the meta shifts to "don't get near the bad guys." If you're trying to design the game to encourage melee play, maybe stop making content that 1 shots 90% of melee characters? You don't even need to be on R10 to see this. Go hop in Legendary Tempest Spine on Elite as a non-tank melee and see how fun it is.

I gotta ask:

Have you played any high skull reapers on Live? Were there any Sorcs in your party? Did they clear 98% of the dungeon by themselves? Cuz this has been my experience recently, even as a big bad scary Inquisitive.

The fact that you feel the need to nerf Inquisitive BEFORE you address the glaring issue of DPS casting is mind boggling. I.E. par for the course.

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This, apparently there were no sorcerers or wiz in his parties lately

Posting after closing time, so I guess this won't be read. But here goes anyway.

Once a ranged build gets IPS it gets turned on. We run with it basically 100% of the time. The only time we switch it off is if we don't want to kill a certain spider or that vengeance reaper lurking in the back. And occasionally we remember to switch to Archer's Focus for a boss fight. Occasionally we even remember to switch back when we are done.

So accepting for the moment the premise that IPS is just a toggle on and forget setting, you are basically reducing all ranged build damage by 20%. Think about that for a second. Something people have been using for more than a decade is suddenly 20% too powerful? It is just nonsense on the surface. I get that Inquisitive was powerful. But the nerfs, besides IPS, you hit it with are brutal. Hitting IPS with an arbitrary -20% just extends that brutality to every ranged class. Furthermore now the ranged player has to constantly toggle IPS off when he is going after a single target. No point taking a 20% loss right?Then he comes to a room with two things in there. Don't join the fight yet buddy, you have to go toggle IPS on again. And guess what? Thanks to the 1s secret cooldown on everything because we couldn't fix some obscure twitch move people were pulling off, it probably won't work. So don't join the fight just yet -make sure it's on first and click it again if it doesn't seem to be. And oh wait. It was coming on so now I have to wait another second to get it right.

I am sorry, but this is probably the second most horrible nerf of this update. Although it might be tied with the new Don't Move a Muscle While You Dance Of Death enhancement.

I wonder if there will be... Let's say 10% of threads asking for inquisite nerf... Demanding instead to leave IPS as it is before the changes

I doubt it, however i wonder if we'll see threads asking for alchemist nerfs

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Originally Posted by catfumaster

I am keenly aware of all of these issues and yet IPS is still too strong. Its like saying my machine gun with armor piercing rounds is a little hard to aim but that dude with a baseball bat can bonk a few guys on the head so I should be left alone. Mobs naturally fall into a line when you kite making IPS more and more effective while removing you from harm; while cleave requires a tighter cluster of mobs to be its most effective increasing harm. Add in the many abilities which reduce mob movement speed and its even easier. There are no real ranged specific checks in things like champions or reapers so you are free to make Ben Franklin super jealous of all your kiting.

Cleaves only hit an arc in front of you, have a limited affect range and again place you in direct harm while being effectively weaker than regular attacks from the same weapon. Cleaves also: have a cool down, can't be used with special attacks and don't double strike while IPS is: constant, can be used with special attacks (IE Hunt's End) and can double shot.

There are some ranged tracking issues in the game engine that do need to be addressed but that can't hold back looking at an already over performing feat. By your own admission fixing this stuff will only make it more powerful.

Pointblank shot is a whole 1[W] extra damage. But sure that could be buffed to better fit with what I suggested.

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Where were you all these years with Arti BE with EF and Mech GXB builds running around? I certainly never heard anyone complaining how IPS made those builds or an AA Ranger OP. No one said sh*t about IPS until Inq hit the scene. What suddenly makes it so OP? It's clear that a pre-nerf 41+ pt Inq + IPS may be OP, but that's due to multiple reasons within the Inq tree.

I'm not complaining about any of the changes to Inq or Rapid Reload, I understand those are needed, but all nerfing IPS does is bugger all ranged builds and there is no guarantee that the next band-aid will do anything to un-bugger it.

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Originally Posted by psykopeta

I wonder if there will be... Let's say 10% of threads asking for inquisite nerf... Demanding instead to leave IPS as it is before the changes

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Makes sense. No one calling for the inquisitive nerf suggested IPS was the way to do it. I mean, I said that's what Steelstar probably would do, but I don't support it.

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Originally Posted by Deathmaster35

The reason you dont see pure mechanics is because they are flat out inferior to the inquisitive tree. You are much more powerful putting 41 into inquisitive and then getting tier 4 mechanic than just doing mechanic alone. Pure mechanic was also inferior to having 4 levels of artificer for a rune arm plus Endless Fusillade because fusillade was overpowered. The great crossbow talk in this thread isnt about a pure rogue using one, it is about players with Endless Fusillade using one. For some reason they have picked to nerf the entire ranged concept instead of just addressing the overpowered abilities

past lives mostly add durability, not damage. You are looking at extra stat points, which are fairly minor increases to damage as a few points in a stat dont amount to much in the long run, the biggest increases would be the 9% double strike and double shot. reaper points only add to your ability to function in reaper mode. Gear is the biggest factor in performing well, you have to have good gear that is appropriate for your role

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Past lives are
+6 to hit
+12 damage
+9% doublestrike

and the durability you mentioned.

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Originally Posted by Lynnabel

This is false. Saying stuff like this makes it really hard to get good feedback. We've already announced significant changes to many of the things written up for preview (and seriously, these are PREVIEW notes) such as Dance of Death, Archer's Focus, and even the entire bow combat style.

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Sorry, Lynn, but he's right. Historically, what you see is what you get (btw, how is that NOT a quest name already?) with Lammania.

If you want to prove us wrong, reconsider the blanket 20% ranged DPS reduction via IPS.

Buff Archers. I can't (but totally CAN) believe that in a pass targeted at Ranged playstyle where multiple devs admit bows are... lackluster, all they get is a 20% DPS reduction via IPS.

Did you all test the Inq changes? On paper, it looks like WAY too much of a swing the other way. Y'all either didn't do the initial testing you said you did if it really is THAT far off, OR y'all didn't crunch numbers and do any testing now. There is no possibility reality in which you designed Inquisitor to be balanced, as has been repeatedly claimed, yet have to make these broad sweeping changes to bring it back in line. It can't be both, so which is it? Inquiring for future purchasing decisions.

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Originally Posted by cave_diver

I approve of these changes...now melee and ranged can run in groups again

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If the ranged you ran/run with make it hard for you to attack, try running with different ranged characters.

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Originally Posted by palladin9479

Doesn't say by how much, and it still won't be enough because max out Dual Xbow is the fastest shooting.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ddo/comment...ight_vs_heavy/

Type Bolts Seconds Bolts/Second
Single Light xbow 300 267 1.1235
Dual Light xbows 300 150 2
Single Heavy xbows 300 268 1.1194
Dual Heavy xbows 300 164 1.82
Light Repeater 300 129 2.3255
Heavy Repeater 300 130 2.307

This was with a level 4 character without all the goodies that enhance that to stupid levels.

Dual Shooter was SSG's attempt to make Light / Heavy XBows competitive against Great/Repeating builds and it was far too big of an increase. The second shot should only proc 50% of the time, not a full 100% with all the double shot silliness. There is a reason half the games population is running inquisitives as their DPS build, instead of mechanic or archery. You can't hand waive away all those drones running around with their arms permanently stuck in front of themselves like some sort of robot shooting out long streams of bolts nonstop.

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Don't your numbers show that repeaters are fastest? Then dual, then single...???

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Originally Posted by Lynnabel

This is false. Saying stuff like this makes it really hard to get good feedback. We've already announced significant changes to many of the things written up for preview (and seriously, these are PREVIEW notes) such as Dance of Death, Archer's Focus, and even the entire bow combat style.

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Well, I like how this sounds.

May I suggest that (at some point) you post the progression of "preview" notes. By that I mean, show what you first posted. Then show what you changed and comment on why. Show all the iterations between when you first show them to us and when it goes live.

Right now you have people like me no longer test on lama because we were burned out trying to help only to see Turbine not consider our testing. It is my hypothesis that you will need to show in clear terms that you are actually acting on feedback received to get more people back into helping test on lamania. With that, the test window also need to be longer.