Player Character Balance

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Originally Posted by Delacroix21

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE allow barbarians and bards to be lawful. It will open SO MANY build options for them, and they really suffer from being locked out of paladin and monk.

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Er, no. Lawful barbarians and bards are not within the class rules on which this game is based.

Barbarians and bards are chaotic by nature.

• "Barbarians are never lawful. They may be honorable, but at heart they are wild."
• "Bards are wanderers, guided by whim and intuition rather than by tradition and law."

Monks and paladins, on the other hand, are lawful by nature.

• "A monks' training requires strict discipline. Only those who are lawful at heart are capable of undertaking it."
• "Paladins must be lawful good, and they lose their divine powers if they deviate from that alignment."

The alignments oppose each other, as they are meant to.

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

Dungeons & Dragons: Online isn't perfectly balanced. We're interested in discussing what balance means, and how important balance is to you, the players. We want to know how often you'd like to see balance changes.

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We'd love to also get feedback from as many of you as possible from this survey!

• Character Balance Survey

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Thanks for listen and doing a survey. However in my opinion some of the questions or answers are really bad.

Example:

1. When they are in conflict, ... who is in conflict, which conflict? I had to read this sentence I guess 5 times to get a grasp what you want from me.

2. If something is potentially overpowered or underpowered, how soon and often should changes be made? If something is over/underpowered it should get fixed right away. However for something that is in game since ages the boat has sailed and shouldn't be nerfed. You can not answer this question with just black and white, it depends on the context.

3. Please rate the overall power of each of these playing styles from 1-5 This really depends on the level. At lower levels, a melee is nice and easy for starters but it will pale in later levels against a caster who click on his instakill button. This isn't per-see an issue with the caster, but that the melee has nothing to hold against. So for which level range I choose my answer? Also which melee, a monk is a total different boat then a fighter!

Frenzied Berserker - Too taxing for healers (if you can find one)

Ravager - meh

Occult Slayer - Lives for weapon bond. Weapon bond takes too long to cap. 200 at 1 per second = 3 minutes 20 seconds. Much longer realistically since you generally aren't fighting constantly. Bond should be per hit. 200 hits isn't outrageous. Sucks having to stand around while other players take out the cube or rust monster because you would lose your bond if you switch to a rust beater weapon.

Weapon durability ties into the bond problem also. Being stuck with one weapon will inevitably turn that weapon into dust before you make it to the end fight. I have two adamantine rituals on my gaxe and it still falls apart. When running a caster or ranged, I will often forget to repair, because I don't take damage. It's ridiculous that melee have it so much worse.

Just to reiterate what I said previously based on something that just happened.
I've been to Wheelon many times. Ranger, Paladin, Healer, Sorc, 2 Arti's. Lots of deadly firepower (no Shiradi tho, just your basic draconic stuff). Selfhealers fine, evaders and ranged, fine. Not that many mishaps.
So I just took my pure horc fighter. Your run of the mill blitzer. I was blitzing mind you, I was saving that to the quest.
Came close to thrill of the hunt, ambushed brutally by those idiotic assassins, hag, casters, those spikey doggies etc. Dead. Despite hireling. Knocked down, slowed down, using all kind of swings, dead.
The reason? No self healing (Duh, fighter) but more importantly - not using things like blitzing and not being able to evade to mitigate damage).

That's your issue; not the fact that some decide to range instead or use as much maximum dps as a result. Because your added mechanics of things stunning, holding, knocking down, crippling, swinging a stupid chain around infinity and slowing down kills anyone that's not evasion, ranged EIN, Shiradi, blitzing. Anyone not doing that including using some of the lesser useful destinies will be toast.

I understand why you guys feel like you need to 'balance' player power. But maybe you need to take a serious look at WHY people move towards those classes? It's not just because they're cool or save resources and kills fast - it has to do with the lousy sordid failure of damage mitigation. I don't use my tank - I've tried. EE content. Unless he selfheal he'll die quick. No amount of PRR will change the fact that he can't evade all kind of spell damage - and when things hit for 400 and you reduce the damage to 200, you won't live long. See - I actually miss as a player. Sometimes a lot. I seldom see enemy critters miss. Unless I have evasion, deflection, dodge, blur, displacement. Now I can do ghostly and blur on my fighter. I can create a displacement clicky. But I won't evade, can't dodge effectively and PRR is just not worth to pursue beyond a bare minimum.

You made tanking useless unless there's a lot of dodge and displacement. AC and PRR means nothing. So the result of this horc heavy dps hitter NOT blitzing was death. Death is okay; I don't lament death. it happens. What I lamanet is the stupid mechanics you put in place, making people gravitate towards the very things you now want to make lesser. Guess what.

It won't change the fact that the mechanics are still stupid.

You cannot rebalance this game until you realize that some classes are not stronger; they're about the only reasonable classes you can play without being a burden to healers. There's no point nerfing the current good DPS if you're also not understand that some classes have no effective way of mitigating some of the current mechanics.

I don't want to play a Monkcher. I got a monk. I don't want to play a triple multiclass hybrid for max saves max evasion and cheesy dps. I want to play my horc. I like the idea of a burly horc fighter beating the snot out of stuff. But your idea seems to be to make blitizing less useful, therefor reducing the only thing he got to be effective to zilch.

So lets talk mechanics before we talk reducing players; I bet if you make all destinies useful in their own niche you will rebalance what people play. If you move away from making everything ranged and evasion you will create content where heavy dps outside blitzing has a niche. Now I'm going to have to rerun out there and blitz cheese myself to the quest entrance, then stand inside and rebuild blitz again because there's no other reasonable way for me to destroy that cheesy stupid chain swingers before they slow me down too a crawl. Remember - you created the cheese, now I need to use it to overcome your dumb mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Delacroix21

A pattern forming here in posts that the real problem lies not in the characters in EE, but the monsters.

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Not only monsters. I now exaggerate a bit, but the thing is that a Sorc is meanhwile quite a potent class, however it isn't really the issue of the class itself, but the fact that years ago we had to collect the mana pots to use them solely for the raids. Meanwhile the casters don't really take care anymore of mana consumption but just burn one pot after the other. Previously you used diplomacy to push the mob back to the melee to have them to deal with it, now you instakill everything while the melee sit in the corner as they are tired that each mob infront of their weapon just go puff.

So except of some epic destiny + class combos, it is not the class, it is the environment, the tools and utilities which are the issue.

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

Dungeons & Dragons:
We'd love to also get feedback from as many of you as possible from this survey!

• Character Balance Survey

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i wish there was a N/A or no opinion.

I have played 7 classes through at least one life, but some i never have. So i am left guessing that a bard sucks but a druid is better? survey should have a no opinion option so you get good info.

note: no class by itself is particularly overpowered , but some synergies with specific race/multi-class/ED combos are better than others.... Some a lot better.

Still, they are only better becasue of the environment they are in. A shark might be a great predator, but not in a parking lot. EDs/races/classes need an environment that favors them.

I'm glad ranged is now viable, and even powerful. I'm also happy that casting works, even if I think shiradi casting a little silly. But I like that more and different combat styles are getting supported. It's a better game than when melee-with-support was the only way to go.

I think the combat mechanics lately has led to too much focus on ranged, though. Melee gets hit with all sorts of damage (that no reasonable amount of damage mitigation makes a noticeable dent it) and debuffs, but ranged just kite and never run into the same issues.

So what should be done?

Ranged it not really that OP for much of the heroic levels, so any nerf would have to be very selective. And I don't really find nerfing ranged a good option, anyway - it's not the damage of ranged that's a problem as such.
So, rather, make defenses actually mean something in epics (especially EE). AC should be much more useful, and debuffs shouldn't just land on melees over and over with no save. Damage from mobs might be lowered a little, as well.

OK, these things might help melee compete a little better, but ranged would still be safer and easier. So maybe some lowering of run speed while firing ranged weapons to make kiting less attractive. Yes, people will hate me for suggesting this, but it's an option at least.

These are rules changes that could make a difference. Some or all of them.

But...

The largest issue is simply that the encounter designs lends so heavily to this way of playing. Design different encounters that make ranged more challenging and melee more approachable and this would really settle the issue with little or no need for "rebalance" (aka nerf). Traps that open up under characters away from the boss monster, knockdown effects the same, archers or stuff that can fire on characters too far out from the center of the battle area. Whatever. Something, at least, that makes ranged less easy.

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Originally Posted by Teh_Troll

This.

I mean seriously . . . is ANY pure 20 build close to OP?

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Capstone enhancements could be buffed for those that take 20 levels. If they were all powerful and desirable in a significant portion of the given game environment we might see more diversity of builds.

Biggest problem of the game are 2 lvl splashes of monk and paladin. The benefits these give should extend over the progression of the class and not be front loaded like they are now. This is comming from EE endgame view.

Also ranged characters should not come close to meele blitzing characters. And atm they do. Action boosts + Manyshot + adrenaline + slaying arrow is not a dmg that should be posible in the game. Or at least not consistently.

Capstones and higher cores require significant boosts.

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Originally Posted by Dandonk

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So what should be done?

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OK, these things might help melee compete a little better, but ranged would still be safer and easier. So maybe some lowering of run speed while firing ranged weapons to make kiting less attractive. Yes, people will hate me for suggesting this, but it's an option at least.

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An interesting option but maybe this is just a black/white thing again that could easily throw the pendulum in the opposite extreme. How about providing a toggle that either reducing precision the longer you kite or decrease run speed, this way you have at least a choice depending on the encounter.

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Originally Posted by SisAmethyst

An interesting option but maybe this is just a black/white thing again that could easily throw the pendulum in the opposite extreme. How about providing a toggle that either reducing precision the longer you kite or decrease run speed, this way you have at least a choice depending on the encounter.

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This sounds great. I'm completely open for other ways of solving the problem at hand. But as I said lower down in my post, I do believe the biggest issue is the encounter design.

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Originally Posted by madmaxhunter

Frenzied Berserker - Too taxing for healers (if you can find one)

Ravager - meh

Occult Slayer - Lives for weapon bond. Weapon bond takes too long to cap. 200 at 1 per second = 3 minutes 20 seconds. Much longer realistically since you generally aren't fighting constantly. Bond should be per hit. 200 hits isn't outrageous. Sucks having to stand around while other players take out the cube or rust monster because you would lose your bond if you switch to a rust beater weapon...

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I second this. Take as an example the new Thunderholme area. The first floor are exclusively skeletons which need a blunt weapon, but on the next floor with the hags, spiders, cultists and horrors you need to change and loose your bond. In some quests you need to change however a lot more often.

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Originally Posted by Dandonk

This sounds great. I'm completely open for other ways of solving the problem at hand. But as I said lower down in my post, I do believe the biggest issue is the encounter design.

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I agree but even go further as already said to say one have to take it in a full context. Not only the encounter design itself, but as well level range, solo or group, ship-buffed vet or newcomer with starter gear, cash or willingness to burn through SP pots... I would already assume if SP pots had a massive timer or side effect like silver flame pots a loot of things would already look different.

Let's be honest about the real problem, the current game mechanics definitely favours certain classes/races over others.
I'll discuss the good, the bad, and proposed fixes:

THE GOOD:

• ability to create very versatile character and customize them for specific functions
• some classes/races are better suited for character specialization
• giving players the freedom to make decisions and mistakes in figuring the right mix out
• feats, skills, destinies, and destiny twists can make an "ok" build decent, even at end game content

THE BAD:

• certain play styles are overlooked in their potential
• key features of some classes are broken (i.e.: bards)
• First life toons cannot keep up with those who are Legend builds
• Melee combat currently underpowered compared to ranged and spellcasting
• Quests have gone from needing skill, just just button mashing
• Threat generation is seriously messed up

PROPOSALS:

• DON'T NERF ANYTHING, doing so will just create more whiners and the overpowered will just find a way to stay overpowered.
• Melee combat should be given incentive to play (lead the horse with a carrot, don't beat with a stick)
  
  • We hate chasing down mobs that the ranged players are just kiting around
    
    • Fix intimidate to work like it did years ago, to properly draw agro from mobs.
    • give us a "Stand Ground" ability to force mobs to attack closest player for 5secs, c/d 30secs
    
    
  • If we're going to stand and fight, give us a bit more protection, or damage output
    
    • EITHER: give us a stacking DR+2/- for every 3secs standing still, stack up to 10 times (similar to caster +1 stacking spellpower while standing still, stack up to 10 times)
    • OR: give us a stacking +0.25[W] for every 3secs standing still, stack up to 10 times
  
  
• Threat needs to be reworked to engage players (tank draw agro, others just beat on the boss...this is dumb)
  
  • Introduce new Aggression Management System (AGS):
    
    • Every player is assigned an AGS value while in a PvE combat area
    • AGS = (1 + Total player kills in zone) * Threat Value * (1 + Damage dealt over past 15secs)
    • Threat value = either subtlety (i.e.: 0.8), or hate (i.e.: 1.2), or neither (i.e.: 1)
    • intimidate grants AGS value * 2 for 30secs, cooldown 60secs
    • Diplomacy grants AGS value * 0.5 for 30secs, cooldown 60secs
    • The monster then attacks whichever player has the highest AGS value

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Originally Posted by Seljuck

I'll say only: SHIRADI CASTERS...

Who play with them, don't need explanation. Who don't know that build, check YT, plenty of Solo EE video.

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But you should watch them cry when they die in a trap that a monk just walked through without noticing. delicious.

First, I will tell you that I am a casual player who uses the DDO environment as a backdrop for my creative endeavors. I have used the game that way since I began playing several years ago. My creativity was ignited by D&D many years ago and DDO provides a ready-made environment in which to involve my characters. The characters that I play are based on the D&D PnP characters that I left in limbo all those years ago and their stories have been adapted into the Eberron world view from my own campaign world.

I like the class system as it is based on D&D. At the lower levels, the characters are designed to struggle, particularly the more cerebral classes (i.e. magic users). They are just learning their craft, they are going to make mistakes. The higher in level they go, the more they learn. On the other hand, melee classes are stronger at the beginning because they are in the prime of their lives. As it should be. As others in this thread have noted, some classes are more powerful at lower levels, others are more powerful at mid levels, and still others at higher levels. Again, as it should be.

This game is called DDO -- Dungeons & Dragons Online. To stray too far from the Dungeons & Dragons part of that title is to risk losing the customers that are attracted to the Dungeons & Dragons aspect of the game.

You have two issues here:

1. The power players: These players play for the end-game challenge and whatever bragging rights that come with it.
2. The new and casual player: These players play for a variety of reasons but probably are less concerned about end-game challenge than power players.

If you try to only satisfy one player base, you run the risk of alienating the other. Turbine must decide what the ultimate goal of the game is to be. Is the goal to be a Dungeons & Dragons game that is played online? Or is the goal to compete with WoW, Rift, NWO, and the like?

Personally, I prefer this to be a Dungeons & Dragons game that I can play online. I like that the game of the past was designed around the need to find other players to help reach the goal. DDO used to be more of a social game that in the past few updates has lost that need. Too bad.

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Originally Posted by knockcocker

My biggest problem really is that your 'four builds' - with which I don't disagree much (Zeus?) - is
actually mostly only relevant to EE. In fact, what a lot of this discussion has boiled down to,
materially, is what builds work on EE. This is a different subject to the OP - but one which is mainly
more relevant?

Most things work just fine on EH- so I'm struggling to see what the fuss is about.

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Yes, because EH is flawed because it is too easy.. EH is so bad that it really does not matter what you play on it build wise. That right there is a huge problem in and of itself.

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

We're happy to hear general thoughts on character balance, what you'd like to see, and also why you'd like to see certain changes (or non-changes.) We don't want to change any particular things without good reasons, so convince us!

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All of the complaints you see in this thread about monk splashes, paladin splashes, ranged attackers, spellcasters, etc.? These are symptoms of the problem, not root cause in and of themselves. The reality is that these strategies are popular because the game makes them necessary. The only effective defensive strategy in EE quests is to not get hit. Because enemies do so much damage in EE, there are only two meaningful defenses - miss chance and evasion.

Miss Chance
Acquiring any semblance of a meaningful AC/PRR requires a substantial investment in the form of feats and enhancements. On top of that, as monsters get more powerful the return on that investment diminishes. Just as with the pen and paper system DDO is based upon, miss chance rules at high levels.

1. It requires minimal investment because there are plenty of places to get it - dodge bonuses, displacement, blur, epic destiny abilities, etc.
2. It creates defense in depth. A monster has to overcome a series of defenses to get through, whereas AC is an all or nothing deal.
3. It ignores a monster's attack score; so no matter how powerful the monster gets, miss chance retains its effectiveness.

Evasion
The only spell type that is dangerous to a prepared player is the direct-damage/reflex save variety, and they are all-or-nothing. Either the player evades and survives or doesn't and dies; there is no middle ground. Part of the problem lies in the fact that damage mitigation for energy damage scales at a pathetic rate. It starts at 5, scales up to 30 at level 11, and tops out at 45 in late epic levels. Meanwhile, energy damage scales at a minimum of around 5 points per level. That 30 damage resistance has to defend against a minimum of 100 damage at level 20. It gets worse in EE, where such spells typically deal 500-1000 damage and energy resist gives a measly 45 points of defense. Even a 33% absorption item still leaves 330-660 damage coming through. Other spell types are no better; it's just that no one complains because immunity to those can be had by anyone at the cost of a spell or gear slot. Energy damage is the only spell effect that requires a class feature for defense.

The bottom line is that EE monsters deal so much damage that the only effective defense is immunity. Whether that takes the form of remaining outside a monster's reach, miss chance, deathward, evasion, freedom of movement, etc., makes little difference. The common theme among the most powerful builds and classes is their ability to take advantage of damage immunities while maintaining useful DPS. If you want to stop seeing homogeneity among endgame builds, things like evasion need to be choices and perks, not necessities.

Some suggestions

• Make PRR a straight percentage damage resistance to physical damage. It should scale so that heavy armor and a tower shield are required to reach the PRR cap around 85-90% damage resistance. While that may seem high, a sword and board tank makes a huge sacrifice in DPS to maintain that defense.
• Give shields a percentage damage mitigation versus damaging effects that offer a reflex save - 25% for buckler, 35% for medium, 50% for heavy, 75% for tower. Again, these may seem high but there is a serious trade-off when one uses a shield.
• Eliminate damage resistance entirely in favor of strictly absorption percentage. It would eliminate the immunity that low level characters enjoy thanks to ship buffs, and energy resistance would remain useful at high levels. It should scale from around 10% at low levels to 75% at high epic. 75% of 1000+ damage still leaves one taking at least 250 damage.

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Yes, because EH is flawed because it is too easy.. EH is so bad that it really does not matter what you play on it build wise. That right there is a huge problem in and of itself.

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On the contrary, epic hard makes more than just 4 builds viable. It is perfect. It is too easy for guys like you madmatt but guys like you should be roaming in epic elite only. In epic elite is the flaw. Making only 4 builds viable is the flaw.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5195980

A bunch of idea being bantered around, one has merit where the OP mentioned give heavy armor a baseline 25% miss. it's an interesting idea but I'd like to make it trollerific.

In the current state of the game heavy armor just plain sucks. The defensive system needs another pass along with hefty monks nerfage. But since the likelihood of this happening is about the same as me having sex with two women at the same time without paying for it here's my proposed solution.

Take a toons Armor bonus and shield bonus bonus and give each of them a separate roll like how dodge works in the game now.

I haven't had a stalwart for months now so I'm pulling these numbers our of the air. Say a "tank" had a 34 armor bonus and 15 shield bonus . . . in addition to the incorporeal and dodge (which is low on an armored build) there would be another 34% chance the armor would "deflect" all of the blow and a 15% chance the shield would deflect the blow.

Since the effects are multiplicative there is no god-mode . . . a 34% of armor deflection * 15% of shield deflection * 10% Dodge (can you get that high in heavy armor?) * 10% incorporeal = 45% chance of getting hit

Monks with armor 25% incorporeal and 25% dodge now are at a 56% chance of getting hit . . . so it's only a little bit better than what the OP Pay2win monks are getting now.

If a monk had the armor bonus of 10 and 4 from a shield wand added it in they'd only get hit 48% so perhaps this ability should require a Stalwart/DOS stance to gain the benefits?

It's quick and dirty, but that's the only thing we get for fixes these day. It would significantly increase the defense of heavy armor toons but since they are so terrible right now they really need it.

Make it so Turbine.