RE: Patch 1 combat improvements

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Originally Posted by Borror0

One possible solution would be to nerf Haste from 25% to 15% and increase the base attack rate by 10%.

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/signed, I don't like playing my hastebots anyways this mod :)

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Originally Posted by Ciaran

Yeah, I know this. I don't think I said that it did...

I was soloing out in the Vale and seeing what I could get my attack speed animation to without using haste pots. Zeal lasts for 2 minutes, haste pots last for 30 seconds. Zeal is much more economical to use. I was just saying that in order for it to be acceptable I have to have Zeal runnig and Jorg's Collar equipped. Doesn't something seem wrong with that scenario?

My point is base combat speeds (before adding items/spells/enhancements speed them up) are too slow as they are and that directly affects my ability to enjoy combat in this game and judging by other responses, the same is true for quite a few other players.



So change the spell, not attack speeds! Not directed at you, just saying. They already changed the run speeds from Haste, why not the combat speed as well? It makes no sense to slow down non-hasted combat at all. Even at the upper levels it's too slow.

If they were trying to offset the problems that Haste working as it does created, they actually made things worse as now Haste is even MORE important and necessary now...

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not really, since zeal stacks with haste and haste is a level 5 potion; i generally expect that a level 15-20 character will be hasted all the time.

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Originally Posted by Emili

Axe weilding Maxed out Human build + items + My decent twitch > Axe weilding Dwarf 2HF Build + items + Someone lacking twitch
is now:
Axe weilding Dwarf 2HF Build + items > Axe weilding Maxed out Human build + items

etc... they took my ability to compensate play and put it all in build.

Simply put Build + Items > playing skill : they took away my way of compensating for the weakness of my three year old based build.

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humans still rock, the extra 30% healing amp is awesome. A human barb can get to 245%, which makes many gaming scenarios alot easier... and you still get an extra feat.

I am confused. As I understood the original post, THF had been sped up a little. Yet, I just logged in with a level 11 THF toon, and swing speed is unmistakeably slower than before. Have I mis-read something?

It should look... Supernaturally fast.

A fighter attacking normally should look... normal. I can swing a khopesh faster than what it is now.

Haste boost should look like... actually I'm not sure what it is. A guy trying to bring in the rice super fast I suppose.

If you drink a magic potion, it should look like magic. Not look like slow mo until you use magic and then look normal.

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Originally Posted by justagame

I am confused. As I understood the original post, THF had been sped up a little. Yet, I just logged in with a level 11 THF toon, and swing speed is unmistakeably slower than before. Have I mis-read something?

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its now more dependent on your BaB to reach prior levels, additional your attack swings have been rebalanced a bit & the last terribly slow animation is now missing. Yes, you swing slower, but you now do more swings/minute. I know that makes no sense at all; but losing that last animation saves ALOT of time (as did cutting out a few other animations if you twitched)

consider you went from roughly 80 swings/min to 90 swings/min. or 100 hasted to 110. (give or take a few swings on all these numbers) additionally you gain a higher percent of glancing blows ( 60% to 75%)

twitch attack dropped down by 10.

autoattack seems feasible now, particularly in a large group of monsters. altho the hit to single target DPS is going to hurt.

After playing my toons it feels like my 1/1 BAB characters are exactly the same as they were and they used that as a baseline speed, and anyone not having 1 BAB/level was simply scaled down. I dont think they sped anyone up, they only slowed down anyone not having full BAB.

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Originally Posted by BlackSteel

its now more dependent on your BaB to reach prior levels, additional your attack swings have been rebalanced a bit & the last terribly slow animation is now missing. Yes, you swing slower, but you now do more swings/minute. I know that makes no sense at all; but losing that last animation saves ALOT of time (as did cutting out a few other animations if you twitched)

consider you went from roughly 80 swings/min to 90 swings/min. or 100 hasted to 110. (give or take a few swings on all these numbers) additionally you gain a higher percent of glancing blows ( 60% to 75%)

twitch attack dropped down by 10.

autoattack seems feasible now, particularly in a large group of monsters. altho the hit to single target DPS is going to hurt.

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Is the point then at cap, I will be faster than under the old system, but in the meantime, at level 11, where I didn't have the 5th attack in the first place, I am now slower -- but that will go away as I level?

18 Sorcerer BA 9

Unhasted w/ THF = ~68 swings/min (~1 swing/sec?)
Hasted w/ THF = ~86 swings/min

Unhasted seemed like a slow spell and hasted still seemed slower than before. This has to be the worst idea yet. Yes, I said it, worse than Grazing hits and Dungeon Alerts.

Take the best thing the game has going for it and then screw around with it and make it less exciting....great idea.

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Originally Posted by justagame

Is the point then at cap, I will be faster than under the old system, but in the meantime, at level 11, where I didn't have the 5th attack in the first place, I am now slower -- but that will go away as I level?

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you'll be faster with AUTOATTACK, otherwise you'll be slower.

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Originally Posted by Junts

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not really, since zeal stacks with haste and haste is a level 5 potion; i generally expect that a level 15-20 character will be hasted all the time.

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Then you're either missing the point or we just disagree that relying on external spells (Zeal, Haste, etc) to make attack speeds acceptable (as in, not painful to watch), if for no other reason than to make combat feel more fast paced is a bad thing.

Before today, a melee with Zeal, Haste, Jorg's, Tempest, w/e didn't look they were swinging a weapon with an 8 strength. Adding any or all of those boosts sped them up considerably, which is understandable.

Doesn't mean that attack speeds should be like they are.

Some more numbers:

16 Fighter BA 16

Single weapon = ~76 swings/min unhasted
Single weapon = ~93 swings/min hasted

THF = ~77 swings/min unhasted
THF = ~97 swings/min hasted

About 10 more swings/min than a BA 9 sorc......

all amounts with just holding down the attack button

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Originally Posted by smatt

All you need for twitch is about 4 liters of Mountain Dew, or a couple lines of meth and you'll be a fine twitch player, with the added benefit of being about as annoyingly anal, self-aggrandizing, and jerkish as most twitch players are as well..... :D

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Shade is NOT self-aggrandizing!

Well...sometimes he's not. ;)

+1 Rep for you!

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Originally Posted by Borror0

Unhasted, it was atrocious. Once hasted, it felt fine. It barely saw the difference once hasted and the combat looked less silly without the last swing.

So am I. Actually, that was why I proposed the change: low level combat looked ridiculous.

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Now low level combat looks and feels ridiculous. This is horrible. I'd rather have the 1 stupid swing back then have this. It looks like I stop to pose for pictures between swings. I wonder if taking swim will help my fighting since it looks like we're fighting underwater now.

just my impression but after running some at various lvls imo this just makes temp types that much better. the animation speed is **** (almost feels like lag at times and the combat log moves faster than your swings) but the attacks are there and the dps is sweet.

twitch is less it seems but, but not so slow that its a gamebreaker and it feels like there is a sweet spot somewhere in there. (i say this cause i cant stand still even if it hurts me ;) )

whoever said haste is manditory now is 100% right. how many 1:30 haste clickies can you craft is the question?

at low lvl its ugly, and for no ac types you are gonna get creamed while you are waiting forever to swing, thf especially. it seemed like forever for that cross attack to come thru.

one thing, when all maxed out tempest+haste+haste boost seems waaay faster now because of how slow normal speed is.

i would like to see some real numbers from the smart guys at some point but as has been said above, the rich just got richer and the poor, well the poor got ****ed again.

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Originally Posted by Vua

Now low level combat looks and feels ridiculous. This is horrible. I'd rather have the 1 stupid swing back then have this. It looks like I stop to pose for pictures between swings. I wonder if taking swim will help my fighting since it looks like we're fighting underwater now.

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WOW. I hopped on my lowbie after reading this. Effing ******** Turbine. I mean this change is completely stupid. And this was on a 5th level character. I am going to roll a 1st with 0 BAB just to see the maximum level of stupidity you have applied to a previously good game. If this is truly based on feedback you will change it back, because the feedback on this retardation cannot be good.

To improve the active combat and to give players different animations from the start the number of attacks and the attack speed should be the same from BAB 1 to 20. A player should perform the four different attack animations in the same order with an attack speed of perhaps 1 attack / 2 seconds (ranged), 1 attack / 1.5 seconds (one handed and two handed) or 1 attack / 1 second (two weapon fighting and unarmed).

The damage of main hand and off-hand attacks is increased at BAB 5, 10, 15 and 20 by the base damage of the weapon. For example a dagger would have a damage of 4D4 at BAB 18 (1D4 base + 1D4 at BAB 5 + 1D4 at BAB 10 + 1D4 at BAB 15).

Two weapon fighting feats should reduce the attack penalty (Without Two Weapon Fighting: -10, Two Weapon Fighting: -4, Improved Two Weapon Fighting: -2 and Greater Two Weapon Fighting: +0). Power attack should have a -2 attack penalty and should increase the damage by BAB x 0.5 (one handed weapons) or BAB x 0.75 (two handed weapons). Rapid shot should increase the attack speed of ranged weapons to 1 attack / 1.5 seconds.

These changes could improve the active combat of DDO, could reduce the need of inflated monster AC / HP and could make grazing hits useful at high levels.

Tell me about it.

A Monk, level 14, without the Wind Stance on? I look like I've got slow on and have an Anti-Grav unit attached to me. My grandmother would be able to dodge that in her sleep.

I can level up to 15 and look at the improvmenet with BAB15 and GTWF but I doubt it'll impress me that much more...

Personally, I feel the animation change to a slower one was poor. But that's my opinion only.

:: Edit More to say ::

Whilst I don't mind the standing there and hitting back as much as I'm taking. Anyone even looked at what those Ogres are doing with each hit and each round in Gianthold? I'm NOT standing there to let them hit me! Unless THEY get tuned down. I would very much prefer my old way of fighting back, where I can land hits whilst dashing around them like a mad blizzard. Either that, or give my toons more ways to be beefed up so I can stand tall like an Adamantine full plated Fighter, save like a divine Paladin, Evade like the most experienced monks...

J1NG

The funny thing is, guess what new players see first? Low-level attacks. Which look completely stupid. You have time to think of a catch phrase before every swing connects. "Coooome get soooome mutha-----kaaaaa!"

Anyway it would be a turn off for me if I were just starting this game.

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Originally Posted by Gleipner

Bc there is a bounch of crybabys out there? ;)

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Isnt that the reason for EVERY patch and nerf?