Player Character Balance

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Originally Posted by sephiroth1084

PRR also needs to become more meaningful for characters investing in it, and less meaningful for those characters running around in no armor and rocking 25% dodge. Right now the pajamas crowd are getting the best of everything.

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I do find myself wondering if perhaps there might be something that could be done there related to, say... the flanked condition, assuming they haven't just gone and optimized that out entirely at this point (Really, could we even tell if they had?). At least when it comes to the situational utility of dodge vs PRR.

Either remove the extended lockout timer for doubleshot on Manyshot outright, or give high level rangers a way to remove it (in the DWS core at 18 or 20, or as a granted class feature at level 15+); that will help close the gap between archers relying on doubleshot and those relying on 10K Stars. Also consider giving high level rangers either an extended Manyshot, or a reduced Manyshot cooldown.

Give rangers some new spells at 3rd and 4th levels that affect their combat abilities. The Spell Compendium has a lot of options there for both TWFing and archery. I'd like to see rangers not eclipse monkchers for archery rate of fire, but have some unique apples to oranges abilities, like AoE shots or crowd control. Leg Shot in DWS is nice, but there's too little in the tree to make it worth investing that far, and is eclipsed in epic levels by Pin and Otto's Whistler.

Give fighters an ability to use tactics feats (Stunning Blow, Improved/Trip, Improved/Sunder) at range to differentiate them from monkchers and rangers.

Provide a ranged version of Assassinate for rogues.

The problem with Ten Thousand Stars isn't that it's too good, it's that there really isn't any alternative that's worth considering. Simply upping doubleshot a bunch won't really help, because if it's made truly competitive with 10K Stars, you just relegate 10K Stars to the dung heap, since the DS will free up build decisions rather than forcing monk 6.

Look at Paizo's Pathfinder...compare the Zen Archer monk archetype to the Archer fighter archetype, and the various ranger archetypes. The ranger, despite its name, doesn't need to be the best archer--it just needs to be competitive while also offering some strong additional abilities. The switch-hitting set-up in DDO is one of the bigger draws of the ranger, but it's kind of rough essentially dumping a lot of your focus when you swap to melee, especially since there are so few places in DDO where we're strongly encouraged to put away our melee weapon(s) and pull out a ranged weapon to do anything besides hit a switch.

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Originally Posted by Scraap

I do find myself wondering if perhaps there might be something that could be done there related to, say... the flanked condition, assuming they haven't just gone and optimized that out entirely at this point (Really, could we even tell if they had?). At least when it comes to the situational utility of dodge vs PRR.

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/shrug

I'd like to see more emphasis placed on tactical positioning and movement: flanking is important in DDO for avoiding being hit (if the creature doesn't have an AoE attack, and isn't aggroed on you), but doesn't do much else at this point.

We can't really tumble or block to avoid most attacks while we're in melee range.

DDO hasn't ever employed flat-footed AC (which contributes to the ongoing issues with AC, and AC balance across the different classes/armor types).

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Originally Posted by Thumbed_Servant

*snip* clerics should not be powerful combat casters *snip*

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While I agree the power creep in DDO has gotten out of control, I don't have time to write a proper response to this and just wanted to say: Please don't advocate that Cleric's shouldn't be respectable casters based on PnP rules. This is simply not true.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericSpells.htm
http://dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Cleric_Domains

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Originally Posted by patang01

Look at the current upper end content and ask yourself if it favors melee or evasion and ranged? To 'nerf' the few viable options in order to balance classes will only make everything weaker across the board while the real issue remains. The content have gone off the rails. A EN Giant in a quest with 55k HP? That keep knocking you back? Of course I will use a blitzer or a ranged with manyarrow fury. Or a Shiradi caster or something using all the heavy draconic spell damage. That favor the classes that can put most spell power or ranged or whatever into such a silly idiotic encounter.

Or the red named battle ragers in the Shadow raid. I mean seriously; what kind of absurd encounter is that? Of course I will range with maximum SP and since there's no end to spawns I don't want to be anything but a Shiradi caster because I don't feel to sludge against the flow of trash with a limited SP pool and I'm sure healers don't want to SP sponge a fragile heavy hitter.

You created this; not by making blitzing good or Shiradi resources saving fun. Not by allowing manyarrow to be fueled by adrenaline - but by making lazy encounters using the worst mechanics (lots of HP and no way to use tactics on them). Thus your reaction is now to change the reaction so maybe you can balance the critter imbalance.

Here's a miuch better idea. Start working on mechanics. Make smarter critter encounters and where tactical feats are more useful than brute force. Allow people to think outside DPS and figure out how to reduce the overall effectiveness of Shiradi in all cases. Be smart and don't be afraid of making it fun. Right now it's all DPS.

Think about it; how many red named regular critters do you have right now? Look at haunted hall. TONS. Look at the raids, TONS. Players reactions will therefore always be to find the most effective way to deal with those kind of lazy mechanics. if you increase HP we will go or the most cost effective way to DPS that. If you go for resource wasting encounters we will try to find the most resource saving.

Then finally it's about fun. Some stuff is just not fun. Others are. Fun is the essence of playing a game. If you nerf everything to a gray mass of sameness you remove fun. You remove incentive to do something and you will make people look for content that allow fun. I don't want to play the equivalent of 'caster'. I want to play a draconic earth sorc.

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This. A thousand times.

If you design content that is designed to smash melees into a greasy puddle in a heartbeat, then expect people to stop making melees. We're not idiots. I'm not aware of many players who enjoy playing a soulstone lying in a pool of fail.
I have a BF 2WF tempest ranger who I love playing in EH content. In EE, he gets out a bow and pretends to be a monkcher. In EE melee, the first time a quickened reconstruct fails to fire for reasons of lag or he takes more than 800 damage in 6 seconds, he dies. In ranged combat, he runs around doing low-budget damage, but he stays alive to do it.

EE Trackers Trap. Red Named Giant. Mandatory encounter, cannot be bypassed. 370,000 hit points.
Your options:
Ranged Toon: Kite from Point A to Point B and back. Bow goes pew pew pew. Occasional manyshot/furyshot goes Pew Pew Pew. Giant dies after several minutes of tedium. Challenge Rating = yawn.
Shiradi Sorc: Kite from Point A to Point B and back. MM goes pew pew pew with some interesting shiradi procs giving the odd Pew Pew. Giant dies after a few minutes of tedium. Challenge Rating = yawn.
BF Melee: Run in, swing, get knocked back, reconstruct, run in, swing, get knocked back, reconstruct fails to proc. Dead. Challenge rating = get a ranged toon or caster to fight him for you.
Non-BF Melee: As above, replacing reconstruct with 'drink pot'.

How did someone 'design' the above encounter, and decide that 370,000 was the CORRECT amount of HP and 350 the CORRECT amount of damage per hit to make this a balanced encounter for a group of players, and decide that the giant should be a mandatory encounter? The mobs are bad enough, with saves high enough to basically turn most tactical abilities and combat effects into a 'fail on a 1' scenario, 6000+ hp and they hit like trucks. So people invis past them if at all possible.

In short - if you want to start hitting things with the nerfbat, sure - fury/blitz/shiradi are places to start looking - but not without looking at mob hp + damage AT THE SAME TIME.

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Originally Posted by sephiroth1084

[*]They're more survivable than basically any other melee thanks to having Evasion, Improved Evasion, 3 good saves, enough PRR to get to the point at which investing more is just wasteful (around 80, which is easily achievable with some combination of enhancements, Earth Stance, items, augments, Destiny abilities, past lives, etc...), fairly easily maxed Dodge (and the ability to exceed the 25% cap), healing amp, 25% Incorporeality, an AoE healing ability, a buff that can grant immunity to Stun, very fast movement, and Abundant Step. They basically get everything you'd want for a character's defense.

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And pure monks gain DR 10/Epic also.

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Originally Posted by sephiroth1084

Part of the problem in the game right now is that dodge, concealment, and incorporeality are almost always effective, and their effectiveness scales with difficulty: getting missed on a hit that would have done 50 damage isn't a big deal, but getting missed on one that would have dealt 500 is a big deal. Meanwhile, AC becomes entirely useless, and while PRR also scales, it doesn't account for the same level of survivability, particularly when you look at the typical figures of a character with 20-25% dodge and 60-90 PRR vs. a character with 150 PRR and 3-6% dodge.

<snip>

PRR also needs to become more meaningful for characters investing in it, and less meaningful for those characters running around in no armor and rocking 25% dodge. Right now the pajamas crowd are getting the best of everything.

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This is why there needs to be some sort of PRR cap based on armor, similar to Dodge. My gut says that Heavy Armor should probably be getting double the PRR that it currently gets, while Medium Armor should be capped in the 150-200 PRR (50-57% reduction) range and Light Armor capped at 100 PRR (40% reduction) and no armor capped at 50 PRR (25% reduction).

*edit: Also Epic levels needs to include full BAB. It's silly that 5 levels of Wizard or Sorc can gain full benefits of BAB, such as more PRR from armor than pure Barbarians, Fighters, Paladins and Rangers.

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Originally Posted by MangLord

The solution is simple to me. Shiradi abilities no longer work with spells. Fury adrenaline is changed to melee only. At the very least, it would force people to squeeze more out of other destinies, or perhaps prefer the destiny that was intended for their class, instead of phoning it in with the standard stuff.

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Then instead of 4 builds we could drop back to 2?

Not much needs to be done to races with one notable exception and that is bladeforged. Bladeforged self reconstruct ability is game breaking and should be removed.

Melee vs. Ranged vs. Tanks vs. Spellcasters is much more complicated. There is something wrong with the damage melee take and the damage that they do vs. what ranged and spellcasters do. I would love it if the devs improved mob AI to concentrate more on ranged and spellcasters, but that is likely more expensive. Easier solution is improving melee dps or reducing the damage that they take and decreasing the damage range and spellcasters do. You could decrease ranged attack speed by 10% and increase melee by 10% and remove the shiradi procs from the spellcasters. I am not sure what you do with the damage mobs do it without making the game easier.

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Originally Posted by sephiroth1084

It's not a balance issue, rather a fun issue, but the whole ED system, and the insane grind through off destinies to unlock twists, gain fate, get to the destiny you want, needs to be looked at. It's a chore, and the reason I stopped playing DDO 2 months after MotU came out for almost a year despite enjoying most of the new stuff--I spent a few days in the destiny I liked on my characters, and then spent weeks in destinies that were not at all enjoyable to be slogging through.

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I couldn't agree more. My dwarf is pretty fun in Fury or Dreadnaught, but his damage goes to hell when I'm not in those. I actually get depressed running my daily VON3 to grind out some more destiny xp, particularly now that the XP has dropped. Like a never ending chore.

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Originally Posted by EllisDee37

The proper balancing for monkchers is to make 10k stars and manyshot share a common cooldown similar to how flasks work. So, for example, if you use manyshot, both manyshot and 10k stars go on cooldown for 120 seconds. If you use 10k stars, both 10k stars and manyshot go on cooldown for 60 seconds.

The other fixes are general balancing fixes for all monk splashes, not just monkchers:

1) Stance feats require 6/12/18 monk levels instead of character levels
2) Move +1 crit multiplier on 19/20 from earth stance to fire stance

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Since this has gotten lost a bit in the thread at this point, I just want to highlight it again.

These are all excellent simple suggestions, and are among the few nerfs that I think really need to be made to actual class abilities (as opposed to destinies). Additionally, I would say that the crit multiplier should be split between master and grandmaster (currently, it's +1 on 19-20 at master level; I think it should be +1 on 20 at master level and +1 on 19-20 at grandmaster).

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Originally Posted by Ancient

Then instead of 4 builds we could drop back to 2?

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Haha. I think it's a solution to work in addition with the most common overall adjustments people are suggesting.

The overall trend towards jumping around with no armor says a lot about the over the top nature of end game. People are playing those 4 builds because that's the easiest path to solving what the designers have thrown at us. I'm not willing to build a cookie cutter character, so I just stick to epic hard and that's tough enough for me on my melee and artificer.

The other solution, which I think would actually benefit the vast majority of the DDO population, would be to dial back the difficulty a bit. All the people claiming the game would be too easy might want to try it on a pure barbarian if they need a challenge.

I also agree with the above post.

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Originally Posted by Kmnh

I don't think the balance is being affected by combat stats, with once class or build doing too much damage or anything like that. Different classes do damage in different ways but I don't think there is any class that cannot solo EE quests if built and played properly. If anything, the game is too easy.

There are two things that stick out as broken: The no-save helplessness procs from shiradi champion and adrenaline multiplying all arrows during manyshot. That's the sort of stuff that's so broken that it warps quest design - All the anti-burst boss invulnerability stuff and the hordes of undead in the new raids look like they were meant to mitigate that. I would prefer to have crowd control be tied to DCs and the damage to be more consistent instead of 20s bursts of insanity.

The AIs inability to fight back while being ranged feels bad. The trash on the new raids is more stupid than the kobolds on the harbor: The kobolds will at least stop chasing and throw stuff at you. Maybe add some snare effects that let people keep fighting but not run away, or give the mobs some sticks to throw at flying monks.

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Hi,

I agree with you on furyshot being broken in its current implementation, and that the mobs' AI generally doesn't handle ranged combat well. Although we are starting to see some improvements in the mobs' abilities to handle ranged attacks in the newest content, by giving them abilities like impede movement to prevent kiting.

Regarding your comments about nerve venom procs from shiradi champion, just remember that a 7% chance of a proc occurring for a no save effect is equivalent to a DC based ability which has a save where the mobs only fail if they roll a one.

So even if you changed that ability to be DC-based, it's likely the only effect would be that it would go off more often in lower level content, where saves are lower, and only slightly less in endgame. Changing those abilities to be DC based won't really affect anything in upper difficulty content.

If any adjustment needs to be made to that ability, it needs to account for the difference between high and low rates of fire. In a way that makes the ability equally useful to a pure, non 10k stars archery build as it is to 10k stars users, repeater users, and missile/AOE spammers.

So maybe there should be only one proc chance per missile set instead. Or if each missile is to retain a proc chance, maybe a single missile should have a higher chance of generating a proc than individual missiles in volleys. The same solution could be applied to other shiradi on-hit proc effects too.

Regarding Pin and Otto's Whistler, which are also no-save, there is a long list of other things which can make them fail and put you back on cooldown. These include: lag, mobs moving unexpectedly, sideways movement of the target relative to the archer, and some monster immunities to those abilities. In particular, there are a lot of non-boss monsters which aren't affected by Otto's Whistler. Pin is somewhat better.

I said it earlier, and I'll say it again; the problem of balancing even something like an ED requires consideration of what else it interacts with. Shiradi may seem too strong for certain caster builds, but if anything it's too weak for low rate of fire archers, like pure rangers. So looking at evening out how some of these abilities work with various builds is part of the solution to getting a more balanced game.

Thanks.

Nerfing one class to make another class feel more powerful is definitely a step in the wrong direction. First off there is no pvp. Not real mmo style pvp at least. Pvp in ddo is a novelty nothing more. Usually when there is a need to make classes more equal has pvp more of an in game focus.

The adjustments over the years really has things out of whack from where they used to be. I remember the decision to make everyones attack speed go up to make the game feel more exciting. Then the need to make the spell haste nerfed due to the increase in attack speed made months earlier.

The decision to give everyone vorpal weapons during the crystal cove event. Then the need to nerf vorpal weapons because everyone had one.

These are just a few examples but hundreds of these changes then post changes to correct the previous changes took place. Turbine please get a grip on your game. And quit listening to the few that come in here begging for x class to get nerfed because they messed up some build they made on a whim.

I added this to the comments when taking the survey:

I think it is hard to say what class is least powerful. With all the multiclass options these days. Also available equipment and level range matters for which class is more powerful than others. So questions about one's playstyle and preferred levelrange might put this survey's result in a different perspective.
Also, please do not change the classes away from D&D setup too much. Some are frontloaded and others are not, but not all classes have to be liked equally!

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Originally Posted by EllisDee37

The proper balancing for monkchers is to make 10k stars and manyshot share a common cooldown similar to how flasks work. So, for example, if you use manyshot, both manyshot and 10k stars go on cooldown for 120 seconds. If you use 10k stars, both 10k stars and manyshot go on cooldown for 60 seconds.

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I think this is overly punitive (basically, you get to use 10K Stars once a minute or you get to use Manyshot once every two minutes, why bother with 10K Stars then, since doubleshot + Manyshot would be better DPS, particularly if 10K still has the extra DS cooldown), and I don't think it addresses the real problem.

It's not that 10K Stars is too good, it's that it has no competition, no significant draw to stay out of 6 monk. If ranger 15+ received some better abilities that were good, and useful, but not simply +Rate of Fire, there could be a decision to make. If fighter gained some at 15+. If Assassinate were usable at range...

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Originally Posted by sephiroth1084

I think this is overly punitive (basically, you get to use 10K Stars once a minute or you get to use Manyshot once every two minutes, why bother with 10K Stars then, since doubleshot + Manyshot would be better DPS, particularly if 10K still has the extra DS cooldown), and I don't think it addresses the real problem.

It's not that 10K Stars is too good, it's that it has no competition, no significant draw to stay out of 6 monk. If ranger 15+ received some better abilities that were good, and useful, but not simply +Rate of Fire, there could be a decision to make. If fighter gained some at 15+. If Assassinate were usable at range...

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Hi,

I think the solution to this is to make doubleshot useful. It should be possible to build for useful doubleshot both as a ranger and as a non ranger archery build too. Both at heroic and epic levels.

At the moment the very low doubleshot numbers achievable taken together with the preposterous penalty after manyshot mean, as you said, you need to be a 10k stars build to be optimal as full-time archer.

The level of sacrifice, in gearing, selecting APs, and feats, for doubleshot far exceeds the sacrifice required to be a 10k stars build. In fact, by taking a deep monk splash, or having monk as your main class as an archer means you get access to a lot of other very nice abilities too.

Plus of course, a good 10k stars build can generate two or three additional arrows per shot, whereas doubleshot is restricted to one at most. Apart from the dps mismatch, anyone firing more arrows gets more chances of per-hit special effects from other abilities, so the inequality continues.

This is a balancing failure clearly, when there is one choice which is clearly strongest, and all others are well behind. It's not the most unbalanced thing in the game, but it's pretty ridiculous.

Thanks.

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Originally Posted by arkonas

enough with the mass mobs as well. make them stronger or more miniboss type then 50+. i don't want to see ee become a joke either. i want it still to challenge everyone even the best. what would they do if they can steam roll everything?

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Yes. I hate mobs. My computer hates mobs. I'd much rather struggle with one or two big, tough ogres than 20 skeletons bogging down everything. When they each have 1000's of HP, it becomes a gigantic chore to thin them down enough so the lag settles down.

I don't want to see EE be a joke, either, but I equally dislike the ivory tower that it is right now.

I can't imagine how difficult it is to create content that provides a challenge to the very best players that put a lot of time into the game, but still accessible enough to keep players with jobs and families from being completely excluded. My friends and I are pretty good players, but finishing an EE quest at level is such a challenge that I just feel disgruntled after the experience. It's fine if I die a couple times, but not being able to engage a boss because he'll demolish me in a couple hits just sucks. If named items and drop rates weren't so much better at EE, I would have no problem just leaving EE to the pros.

I don't have an archer or caster currently at epic levels, so this comes mainly from the perspective of a melee guy.

Something sadly important when nerfing "small things" like abilities, skills, or feats, is that it does NOT nerf a single class, or a single Mix. It nerfes EVERYONE who uses such skill, whether it's a Overpowered Class Mixture or a Useless Multiclass, but the damage the nerf does only hurts players.

Why is it that OP is always seeked:
-Powercreep: New weapon does ALWAYS does more damage. And unless you're the strongest, you're dead.
-Damage: The glorious battle of whoever does the biggest numbers or the most steady outputs when armor class or damage reduction are meaningless.
-Ranged vs Melee: The sad moment when a single 800hp baloon has to fight a group of 20k hp needles means that the one that is not in harm's way is the sole survivor.
-Uselessness X Feat/Skill/Ability: Who cares about a static small bonus when you can have a big cumulative bonus laying around? Flexibility long ago turned into weakness.
-LAG: 1 second delay can make the difference between a bad moment and a bad wipe.

There are too many variables to count but I strongly believe those are the most damaging to the game.

There are also small issues:
-Flawed feats and skills with bugs.
-Unintended Delays: Monk's Cleave/Great Cleave takes too much animation time to very little damage. Improved Feint takes forever.

There are too many things in DDO, be it equipment pieces, or mostly feats, that end up being niche or pure flavor.
-Wolf's Whistle, or Sonic Damage Spells.
-Light versions of Heavy weaponry. Xbows or picks.

These are just personal picks, and I can be hideously wrong.

The True Nerf should start on mobs. If they could fail a save on an "everyone achievable high number" instead of a "5% chance in the roll of a d20" it would make every caster take hold, every melee take trip or stun, and every ranged take a paralysis weapon.

If i could, i would vorpal everything for ol' times sake....And not for a flimsy 100 or so damage...

Before I can really answer balance questions I need some more info .....

1. Who you are trying to make EE for - the top 1%, 10%, 30%, or ?? of the population
   
   • I would like to think 25% but feel it is more like 5%
   • The top 1% will stomp all over anything you make no matter what you do
   
   
   
2. How big of a jump is wanted between EN to EH to EE
   
   • I think a 1:3:5 ratio is good but I feel it is more like 1:2:15

Some changes that could be made:

1. Make tanks relevant in EE (EE mobs hit so hard ranged/spell builds are required)
2. Buff weak trees and weak epic moments (tree form useless now, fate singer, etc.)
3. Decrease EE monster saves (this is why people use no save things like shiradi)


There will always be powerful builds compared to others, but this is what you get from customization. Building uber toons is DDOs BEST feature! This builds change with each new addition to the game, and I believe there are enough variants to be balanced.


There isn't one build to rule them all in ddo ATM, but rather a bunch of builds that can dominate EE. LD, FoW, Shiradi are good trees (tree form was good, now useless). Other destiny so just need some love!