Crafting Viability

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Originally Posted by pjw

Yeah, if you are hoping to craft, say, a 'Flaming X' then you need to be at least level 23 in Arcane. To get there requires on average, using an optimal path, about 480 Lesser and 98 Greater. By the time you have made it to level 4 you have probably only pulled ML1-3 items, which typically return 1.7, 3.6 and 7.5 Lesser for 1,2,3. Assuming you got an average mix with only a prefix or a suffix (big ask), then you would get about 4.3/item. So you would have to deconstruct 120 items.

I suspect this is a big ask for any level 4.

The other killer for the system is that it get worse at higher levels and has scaled badly.

If I am someone who expects to get from level 50 to level 60 in, say, 1 year of dedicated crafting levelling, then I will make it from level 1 to 30 in 18 days, and I will go from 30 to 40 in 42 days.

Whatever you think about friendliness to new players, it is also balanced in the sense it is quite unfriendly to everyone.

Personally I would prefer a system where going from level 1 to 30 took about the same time as going from 50 to 60. ie. linear resource requirements for level.

Secondly, I would like two things to be true (and I have no data to determine how this might be possible):

1. New players should be able to craft basic useful weapons at level: +1/2/3 Element of PG, then bursts, banes etc etc

2. 'Dedicated casual' players should be able to craft most things withing 6 months.

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What I highlighted in color

That was what I find troubling, I get a lot of Pure good drops between levels 4-6, so why would I not be able to craft a Pure Good around that level.
That is a lvl 43 Recipe, at the rate I get items to decon for Mats, I might as well give up on that idea Unless I want to pump $100 for TP to be spent to help out, and that's not to say Benjamin Franklin would be enough or more then plenty enough. It's the Failure /Success Factor that could determine. But based on how much Lama TP I Have used to get my crafting levels to be able to attempt Pure good, Ole Ben would not been enough.

What do you think crafting levels need to be to make this {Image} it's not one of the weapons I'm trying to replicate , but almost same. Doubt a lvl 4 will had gathered the materials needed (w/out TP, or others Plat donations). They may have a better chance getting the drop then crafting it :(

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Originally Posted by simsiim

What do you think crafting levels need to be to make this {Image}

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+1 True Chaos of Pure good;

'True Chaos' and 'Pure Good' are both Divine schools, and '+1' is Level 10 Arcane.

Assuming you are happy with a 50% chance to craft each shard, and don't spend any TP, then you can avoid levelling Aracane and just take Divine to 33.

This would cost (roughly) 1540 Lesser and 280 Greater essences of various sorts.

Thanks for the numbers (amount needed), and that I would guess is what's needed if all were Success getting there ?

This was the item I wanted to replicate It's Lvl 2, [Image] but I think if I craft it, it'll end up being a lvl 3. It's the one I wanted to show, but the Screenshot is saved on the other computer, had to log in and take this one :o I love this weapon, it rips through Skelies like a Hot Knife cutting melted Butter :D:p
Also wanted to make a +2 version not this +1, and without the Half-Orc requirement
And to see my progress of Quest and what I have been able to acquire so far. Tho some of the Materials are lvl 1,2,& 3. [Image] I would consider this at casual pace

I keep meaning to ask what one gains from the different levels,?? does it increase success ? or something totally different ?

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Originally Posted by simsiim

Thanks for the numbers (amount needed), and that I would guess is what's needed if all were Success getting there ?

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Actually it's my best attempt at expected cost based on repeatedly choosing the most eficient recipe and using the expected cost of each attempt combined with the expected number of attempts. There is probable a non-trivial +/- factor, but it's in the ballpark.

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Originally Posted by simsiim

This was the item I wanted to replicate It's Lvl 2,

+1 Flaming of PG, RR HOrc
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Also wanted to make a +2 version

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There is no way to create RR items, so it will be higher ML. I really hope they introduce RR some time.

For this you would need at least L23 in Elemental (436/90) and L33 in Divine (1540/281) for a total of 1,976/371 Lesser/Greater of various types.

For +2 you would also need L20 in Arcane which would take about 47/12 Lesser/greater.

I am pretty confident of these numbers, but spreadsheets combined with copious quantities of wine being what they are, who knows....

Note: I have assumed no expenditure of TP here, and further assumed that when this goes live they will prevent crafting recipes more than 10 levels above your own. If you change either of these factors, the costs drop drastically.

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Originally Posted by simsiim

...I would consider this at casual pace...

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This is the hardest part of the equantion. I went into the vale and looted one chest (not statistically valid, sure) and got 20-ish Greater ingredients. That is a lot. If that was normal for vale (or similar) chests, then the system is clearly designed for twinking, not new players. (Edit: I have since looted 4 more and got none).

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Originally Posted by simsiim

I keep meaning to ask what one gains from the different levels,?? does it increase success ? or something totally different ?

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AFAICT, level etc makes no different in returns. The only difference is in the individual prefix/suffix Base Price Modifier. So, a '+5 Holy Burst Greataxe of Pure Good' will yield no more than a '+1 Holy Burst Club'.

I've just spent the afternoon playing on Lama, trying to get my head round how it would feel for a new player. I genned a new character and started them off in Snowy Korthos, just to be retro.

I did some quick N/H/E runs of three out of the four Korthos Village quests, then went on a brief charge round the island to get to Stormreach. Levelled up to two and then ransacked KNR as that gens a lot of chests quickly. Should have probably done Haverdasher too but didn't think about it before I got kicked out.

Thoughts:

1. Wow, lots of stuff to craft from on Korthos, and nice to have some elemental options if you chose, as I did, to take the Eternal wand! Nice to see some interesting bits and pieces turn up in chests, as well as the essences. Backpack space is an issue, however.

2. It would be very helpful, as a new player, to get handed a small ingredient bag as well as the gem and collectable bags on stepping off the boat. And, by the way, at the moment a level 2 toon can't even get in to SEE Jeanselme to claim the free small ingredients bag, it's blocked for some reason on Lama (and even if that bit of the Twelve wasn't blocked, new players aren't going to know about it - I know it was months before I discovered this on my first toon). Given the lack of backpack space on a starter toon, I felt like I was running backwards and forwards a lot to crunch items for crafting materials just to keep the space clear, and ended up with practically a full tab of ingredients. Even a small ingredients bag would make a lot of difference to this. I know you can get the Medium Ingredients Bag from a vendor, but brand spanking new players with no sugar daddy won't see 8k plat for quite a while....

3. It felt like the drop rate of guild items was higher to me. Thought it was a good thing. Looked like you would probably get some interesting options that way. Love that armour retains its skin once crafted, big plus. Plus, as your toon levelled, you could strip the armour back and recraft it.

4. Backpack space wasn't helped by being unable to crunch smaller essences to larger ones, in my opinion.

5. I'll admit I'm not a crafter, so this isn't really aimed at me. But to my mind it felt like a lot of running around to dump stuff off to deconstruct, even with access to the bank.

6. Reiterate what 5246 people have said already about allowing shard deconstruction at the shard crafting altar.


TL : DR - Devs, please consider moving the small ingredient bag donator. Perhaps to the crafting guy at the front of the crafting hall? Next best thing, please reinstate access for low level toons to the Twelve (although this is not the best option for new players IMO).

Again....I would have to say this crafting system was almost specifically made to make extra money from the store for people unwilling to wait out the time needed to do it without TP's.

Like I said....there is absolutely nothing in this crafting system that is more powerful than gear that can be obtained through questing in the game.

This implementation is basically a giant fishing trip for Turbine. Not saying it's bad or good.....but just calling it what it is........this system will not be made easier until Turbine has determined how much profit they will rake in from the way it is now...so don't hold your breath.

It's basically how it was when the game went F2P.......the game was actually made free......to anyone who wanted to truly get the most out of it, it requires grinding favor and/or spending RL money.

This crafting system came about AFTER the F2P micro-transaction game model......what made you think it was going to be any different?

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Originally Posted by vVAnjilaVv

Like I said....there is absolutely nothing in this crafting system that is more powerful than gear that can be obtained through questing in the game.

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Sure there is. Life-stealing Scimitars are more powerful neg-levelers than any other items in the game.

And "more powerful" is only part of the equation. The cost of obtaining something matters too. A +4 Holy Silver Khopesh of Evil Outsider Bane is much easier to get from the crafting system than from questing. That only requires mid 30s in crafting, and a couple attempts.

I'll state, once again, as I do every time I comment here, that I have not yet tried this myself, and am going on only what I've seen here in the forums.

People are complaining that the system is not fair to lowbies. From what people are posting, it doesn't seem that way to me. In my eyes, the system is not meant to replace twinking, the AH, etc. It's not even meant to replace random loot. It's meant to, once in a while, allow you to pick your own custom loot, that has bonuses roughly equivalent to what you might pick up, just distributed how you want. At the highest levels, it probably switches over a bit to a huge grind for the SUPERIOR WEAPON OF ULTIMATE POWER, MUWAHAHAHAHAH!!! ahem.

Anyway, I only play permadeath, and equip what you find, but off the top of my head, I'm going to list what I think are some level appropriate items we could use to compare. If you can't make one of these every few levels, THEN maybe its too slow.

Using weapon as the example.

Level:

1: +1 weapon (masterwork really, but I'll be nice)
2: +1 weapon
3: +1 weapon of lesser X bane, or +1 elemental damage, or a +2 weapon
4: same as 3
5: +3 weapon or +1 of pure good, or +1 flaming, or even +1 flaming of righteousness or +1 keen of pure good
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10: +2 adamantine holy of pure good (yes, I know metal type isn't counted in crafting, but this would be a sweet drop at level 10, so I'm putting it anyway. If you can craft it earlier, that's a nice bonus.)

It is what it is....a hook to get people to spend money on the store and something new to add allure to the game for new players coming in.

We didn't need it for 5+ years...why would it have to be something we HAVE to HAVE easily accessible to us now?

Cripes...I think Turbine should have just released two 15-17 content packs this Update and skipped the new crafting system altogether.....:D

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Originally Posted by vVAnjilaVv

It is what it is....a hook to get people to spend money on the store and something new to add allure to the game for new players coming in.

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I see absolutely nothing wrong with either of those things. I mean seriously, why wouldn't you want a nice steady stream of new people coming in all the time? Why wouldn't you want to provide a way to conveniently purchase what you can't find out of chests? A business is about two things: making money and keeping customers. Everything a business does revolves around those two basic concepts =D

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Originally Posted by wonkey

It's meant to, once in a while, allow you to pick your own custom loot, that has bonuses roughly equivalent to what you might pick up, just distributed how you want.

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If that's the goal, it fails.

Almost all the grind is in leveling. Once you level to a certain point, you can create new items of that level almost at will. You don't get what you want "once in a while". You get nothing for a while, and then get everything.

Furthermore, the system doesn't really support "redistributing" what you get, or getting bonuses roughly equivalent to what you break down. You can break down great things, like Pure Good, but you still have to get a lot of crafting XP to actually make something with Pure Good. By the time you do, you'd almost certainly be near cap, unless you send over a bunch of ingredients from an alt.

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1: +1 weapon (masterwork really, but I'll be nice)
2: +1 weapon
3: +1 weapon of lesser X bane, or +1 elemental damage, or a +2 weapon
4: same as 3
5: +3 weapon or +1 of pure good, or +1 flaming, or even +1 flaming of righteousness or +1 keen of pure good
...
10: +2 adamantine holy of pure good (yes, I know metal type isn't counted in crafting, but this would be a sweet drop at level 10, so I'm putting it anyway. If you can craft it earlier, that's a nice bonus.)

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I would be surprised if a permadeath player, or any new player without a high level alt feeding their lowbie, could manage that progression.

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Originally Posted by vVAnjilaVv

We didn't need it for 5+ years...why would it have to be something we HAVE to HAVE easily accessible to us now?

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Same could be said for anything ever added to the game.

It's in Turbine's best interest to have new gear (and the crafting system is full of new, and so-rare-previously-it-might-as-well-be-new gear) be hard to get, so we keep trying, but still within reach, so we don't get frustrated and leave.

It doesn't have to be easily accessible. But a system that encourages mindless grind above all else to reach its most potent items, is a bad system.

The progression was the kind of equipment I'd expect to find, not what I meant the character would be crafting.
So the crafter might, in my imaginary example, craft a +2 khopesh at level 4, and then a +2 adamantine holy falchion of pure good at level 10, crunching up every pull they don't want, and collectible-granted trash they get until then.

but, if you can't do that, then maybe it IS too slow for lowbies, after all.

And, don't the levels grant different effects at different points? Is it that everything you might actually want comes together?
Otherwise, what did you mean by, "You don't get what you want "once in a while". You get nothing for a while, and then get everything."

And, finally, I disagree with "It doesn't have to be easily accessible. But a system that encourages mindless grind above all else to reach its most potent items, is a bad system. "

I wouldn't expect an abundance of mindless grind to get ANYTHING from the system, but to get the BEST items, tons of mindless grind is what I'd expect from an MMO. Sure, I'd prefer a super-hard challenge instead, so that it takes a long time to overcome, and the items are still rare, but an abundance of grind seems to be the modus operandi, in general. Not the best, but I wouldn't call it a bad system.

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Originally Posted by wonkey

The progression was the kind of equipment I'd expect to find, not what I meant the character would be crafting.
So the crafter might, in my imaginary example, craft a +2 khopesh at level 4, and then a +2 adamantine holy falchion of pure good at level 10, crunching up every pull they don't want, and collectible-granted trash they get until then.

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You say you were listing equipment you'd expect to find, but then say a crafter might craft those items at those levels.

My point is, while it is reasonable to find those items at those levels, I don't think it is at all reasonable to craft those items at those levels, on a non-TR character not being twinked by a high level alt.

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And, don't the levels grant different effects at different points? Is it that everything you might actually want comes together?

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They do come at different points, but good effects tend to come together. Say you want to make an Acid, Shock, Cold, or Fire weapon. Those are all early/mid-30s levels. It takes some grind to get there, but once you do, you can pretty much make all the Acid, Shock, Cold or Fire weapons you'd want. The cost per weapon is negligible compared to the cost to level to that point.

Suppose you want Holy. That's mid-40s. Much more grind to get there, but again, once you get there, you can make all the Holy you want.

You don't get items you want every once in a while. You get new levels every once in a while, and once you hit those levels, you can make all the items you want at that level with little cost.

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I wouldn't expect an abundance of mindless grind to get ANYTHING from the system, but to get the BEST items, tons of mindless grind is what I'd expect from an MMO.

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Between 20 Shrouds, and 200 level 10 quests on a level 20 character, which you prefer to make a good boss beater?

Shroud is an easy grind, but not quite a mindless one. Farming low level quests on high level characters is mindless and appears to be the best way to progress in this system quickly.

It's probably unrealistic to expect high challenge, low grind gameplay in an MMO, but when we have a moderate challenge, moderate grind already, why should we settle for a new no-challenge, huge grind system?

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Originally Posted by dkyle

Same could be said for anything ever added to the game.

It's in Turbine's best interest to have new gear (and the crafting system is full of new, and so-rare-previously-it-might-as-well-be-new gear) be hard to get, so we keep trying, but still within reach, so we don't get frustrated and leave.

It doesn't have to be easily accessible. But a system that encourages mindless grind above all else to reach its most potent items, is a bad system.

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Mindless grind......haha.....that's funny. This game is as grindy or ungrindy as you MAKE it.

Do people need all GS, EPIC, and raid gear to be good or even great......no.
Do people need TR's with 10 different class stacked feats to be awesome.....no.
Do people need a crafting to system to easily obtain raid-like/epic gear or best possible gear you can have at any given level of your first life experience.....no.

Psshhh...I can easily make it to level 8-10 with just stuff I get out of chests even to cap actually.......sure it's more of a challenge for a brand new player but the passion is sometimes in the risk....and it's an aspect I relish reliving sometimes when I start fresh on a new server.

We will see if the system is feasible or not after it goes live.......if Turbine makes good money off of it....it could go either way to change it.....I mean this is brand new...give it some room to breathe.

It's tied to the store like it or not......now it's a matter of Turbine testing the waters to see what implementation will gross the greatest profits.....simple as that.

This is PHASE I.

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Originally Posted by dkyle

They do come at different points, but good effects tend to come together. Say you want to make an Acid, Shock, Cold, or Fire weapon. Those are all early/mid-30s levels. It takes some grind to get there, but once you do, you can pretty much make all the Acid, Shock, Cold or Fire weapons you'd want. The cost per weapon is negligible compared to the cost to level to that point.

Suppose you want Holy. That's mid-40s. Much more grind to get there, but again, once you get there, you can make all the Holy you want.

You don't get items you want every once in a while. You get new levels every once in a while, and once you hit those levels, you can make all the items you want at that level with little cost.

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Because the nice things on weapons come in level 30/40, early weapons, like a longsword of pure good (ml 2), will not be available until much later. The system is not based on minimum level but on effect, therefore the goodness comes in chunks instead of gradually. This doesn't seem right, because you'd want to make items more or less at the same rate you are leveling.

I have only been focusing on low level weapons crafting for Viability , I actually keep forgetting we have jewelry and Armor items that can be crafted. I think why I've been mainly focused on Weapons it's probably the easiest for every one to relate too.
I think I need to switch my crafting of just weapons and look into the other items that can be crafted.

Since I started with the crafting , and see the results of gathering and crafting levels, I wonder what was considered low levels when that statement was made. If it meant for lvl 17+ I would most likely agree that low levels could make some good weapons.

There's definitely an easy button to crafting once a player has Maxed Crafting levels.

I been pondering on the thought that crafting cannot be started till a later level. Even if one does spend real money to increase their levels , is it still a Vialble for a lvl 2-8 to consider crafting ?
It's nice to think I could have specific weapons for some of the Adventures I would enter at those levels, but would they be necessary. So is crafting needed at the low (newb) levels, I think a consensus would say Not.
But the fact that player at low levels can craft, they will want to reproduce that rare drop.
So maybe the Crafting Hall can be set for like lvl 8+ ?

Terebinthia mentioned something I keep forgetting to mention, "the bags". Most new players would not have a clue that there is even an free small Ingredients bag (or is it Tiny). Not sure if they had planned to include the person you talk to before going to Stormreach for the first time, lets you know you may want to talk to Such-n-Such, about ingredients , I like the idea where when you first go into the crafting hall the Guy there would give you your tiny bag, but that kinda goes against my lvl 8 entry idea :o, maybe need to move him outside the hall, to work with my lvl8+ concept.
Collection of ingredients still work as now, but with better drops.

another thought, is the Shard and combining device just be level 8 +, but the Deconstruct device is open to everyone lvl 1+. The thought here is that the Player will had time to have had collected the mat's to actually create some Viable items at level or lower, it could be enough to get the addiction to want to spend TP (tossed that last bit just for PR :p) .
Without making this the Great wall of Text, think I'll stop here , gotta go down to the barn and fix a corner the horses Broke and knocked over :mad:

In NWN i was never a big crafter, ok no crafting actually. until i found a drow in the under dark who for a price would craft for me . He had alist of things he would put on my weapons. This is the kind of crafting id'e like

1. take said item too a master dwarven smith for a price.

2. take weapon armor too a master wizard and have magic placed on said armor or weapon.

3. take weapon armor too a cleric too have divine magic cast on the same items all for a price mind you.

I just hate crafting my self, go cut a tree down ,then get some metal blanks, bah..with that said i have alot a GS ,thats not so bad this may not be that bad, i just wish for guys like me we could just go too a wizzy, and say how much for a ..???? and then decide if its too much and how much you need to save. lets face it thier are people who will craft even if they could just buy it then thiers guys like me who think's it's a waste of thier time too craft and would rather just quest and buy the effect from a dwarven master or wizzy or cleric.. thats my 2 cents

They also said this is just the initial roll out of a larger crafting system, it WILL evolve and change. As it is its just an experiment on turbines part. I'll make judgements in 6 months or so after it has been modified a time or two and hopefull into a proper crafting system. Maybe the devs should go over to Star Wars Galaxies and look at the system they have set up.

True this is just the start, and it needs adjustment, But I wouldn't reserve till what is felt to be final to be the time to grade/judge the crafting system.

on another note, only problem I might be able to foresee is if the crafting is made Viable for low levels, it most likely will make it too easy for higher levels