Tanking Universal Tree - a player request

Hello Hack and Slashers,

I am hoping to start the conversation of what a Tanking Centric Universal tree would look like.

I am a big fan of the Eldrich Knight tree becoming universal but i was thinking why not do something that is a bit different and increase the fun factor of playing tanks.

Here are some of my thoughts.

1) Con to hit with weapons and Shields
2) Con to damage with weapons and shields

This would be the draw to use AP in this tree much like the CHA, DEX and INT adaptions in other trees. This should not be exclusive to weapons WITH shields to allow for the HP DR tank to make a come back.

3) +3/6/9 Profane Shield bonus when raged
4) +1/2/3 Profane PRR boost when raged

allows for barbarians and druids to shield up but also allows for racial rages to provide more of a benefit.

5) +1 Con x2 only stat increase option (no need to add str or other dps stats) tier 3 and 4

6) Monkey Grip - Tier 5 - allows for use of a Two Handed weapon to be wielded in one hand with a shield in off hand.
This is simply to assist with tank dps and threat generation. For balance you COULD (though i don't like it) restrict this to heavy shields and lower only and not tower shields. Could add a stat drop like -2 wis or int and/or add a str requirement of 17 to use.

7) Threat generator 1%/3%/5% tier 1
8) Shield of hate - additional 1%/2%/5% when wearing shield only. tier 2 requires Threat Generator.

9) Hps 10/30/50 - tier 2
10) PRR Action boost / Armor class Action boost / Temp Hps Action boost



I think these alone would encourage many more people to make tanks .. but it would also allow for more survivability in Clerics encouraging more people to play healers if they can use this tree as a secondary tree to boost their hps and make leveling easier.

Of course i am no expert ... Just wanted to get this out there .. would love for the community to come together around this sort of Idea and have the DEV's input so we can work toward finding a well balanced and mutually beneficial (for all classes) to enjoy playing and leveling tank role characters.

There are different types of Tanking - I don't think a single universal tree could be created that would either be very watered down, or would be too specific to a specific type

1. Hate Tank - Does lots of damage and can take lots of hits - This could be through miss-chance or simply having lots of hit points coupled with damage absorption
2. AC Tank - Toe-To-Toe takes less hits/damage by being missed
3. Evasion Tank - Spell cast avoidance

Each of these have a different focus, only some of which overlap

I think honestly, it would be better to Augment the specific class's Trees

Something for the Barbarian Tank
Something for the Druid Tank (Nature's Protector Tree)
Something for the Arcane (Edrich Knight)
Something for the Divine (War Priest/Soul)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Enoach

There are different types of Tanking - I don't think a single universal tree could be created that would either be very watered down, or would be too specific to a specific type

1. Hate Tank - Does lots of damage and can take lots of hits - This could be through miss-chance or simply having lots of hit points coupled with damage absorption
2. AC Tank - Toe-To-Toe takes less hits/damage by being missed
3. Evasion Tank - Spell cast avoidance

Each of these have a different focus, only some of which overlap

I think honestly, it would be better to Augment the specific class's Trees

Something for the Barbarian Tank
Something for the Druid Tank (Nature's Protector Tree)
Something for the Arcane (Edrich Knight)
Something for the Divine (War Priest/Soul)

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Some classes have a built in tanking spec - paladins and fighters for instance. to make a Universal tree the only thing that has to be considered is what makes a tank vs a healer vs a dps vs a DC Controller/instakill

Typical Tanks as a Role are very specific:

High Hit points - able to take a shot
High defensive stats - DR / PRR / AC / maybe dodge and MRR depending on class and armor types. damage avoidance
Threat and intimidate - to hold mobs/bosses

All three of these should be addressed in any Universal tree.

Traditionally the TANK role is anyone who holds aggro ... but to differentiate it from a DPS or Healer you need to add restrictions to a universal tree which would force a player to pick a tank role when using a tank specific universal tree.

The key trick is how do you do a universal tanking tree which can let any class play a tank the same way inquisitive lets any class play ranged while still providing some build options for classes who have tanking trees to improve their stats without breaking them vs Raid bosses and mechanics.

This is why i provided options in my example for Barbarian for instance that would gain benefits from raging on defensive stats making them able to beef up while raged and tanking.

But like Inquisitive which does not let you be a BOW ranger, or vistani which doesnt let you use dwarven waraxes or longswords, there has to be some limitations.

I think the most obvious one would be shield centric WITHOUT a focus on shield bash for DPS. The tree should include many options for barbarians and monks and other classes which can be tanks currently, but should also force a play style like all other universal trees do.

Example of this could be to add a teir 4 that allows monks to use shields as a monk weapon. or allows someone to dual wield shields like inquisitive does for crossbows?

double the defensive stats but lose the offensive damage?

I definitely think no matter how it is done adding dodge bonuses and lots of threat generators is key. Both single target and AOE.

that can be done through core abilities and capstone should have a massive threat increase and +4 con.

Maybe like the diplomacy function in inquisitive they could include a large area auto intimidate when tank receives healing from any source. This would allow even partial healers to make the tanks life easier just but healing them but also allow them to drop their own agro by getting in close and tossing the tank a heal. This would be great for rangers and casters who have healing abilities and tend to grab agro easily.

It would also be a big deal for monk and barbarian tanks who have self healing procs.

Three rules of Tanking

1. Be able to get and keep aggro
2. Be able to survive aggro (goes with rule one)
3. Cost less party resources than if that damage was spread amongst the other party members

The "lots of hit points" is a fallacy if on its own, easily proven when you see a character with lots of HP die quickly

I still would argue a universal tree would be too watered down, or worse become a must have for non-tank builds simply looking to add survivability.

As a general rule, I like global trees when they don't step on anyone's toes.

Harper is a bit too weak. Inquisitive a bit on the strong side.

A tanking tree's main role should be grabbing aggro, not surviving it.
Give that tree a way to deal absolutely no damage, but multiply the hate that those hits would have generated to high heavens.
Things like "reset all aggro, then generate a boatload".

If you want to survive doing that, find it somewhere else, in your class, in your equipment, in your ED. The Universal tree is about hate generation, and nothing more.
If there's a single tank tree, it should be about the things all tanks have in common.
All tanks want attention. Not all of them survive it the same way. Damage negation/avoidance, damage reduction, temp HP, constant self-healing, all of that is useful to some tanks, but not all of them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drfirewater79

1) Con to hit with weapons and Shields
2) Con to damage with weapons and shields

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I suspect this will sound odd in the days of INT or WIS or CHA to hit, but, I seem to recall a dev (I think) suggesting 1 stat builds were not something they wanted to do?
Currently you need at least 2x stats in most builds - piling everything into CON...? I wouldn't get behind that.

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Originally Posted by Xgya

Inquisitive a bit on the strong side.

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No it isn't not by a long way!

Inquis was "balanced" around people who have every past life there is and optimal. Take that all away and it is painfully slow going. Meanwhile casters are walking round and 1 button clearing rooms.

Give Inquis back the Law Dice that was removed and remove the beyond stupid penalty to Improved Precise Shot and then maybe, and only maybe, might you have a small point but it will still be behind casters.

Also they can remove the stupid wind up animation for No Holds Barred that causes us to lose 3-4 seconds of the Action Boost. It should be instant.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PedXing20

I suspect this will sound odd in the days of INT or WIS or CHA to hit, but, I seem to recall a dev (I think) suggesting 1 stat builds were not something they wanted to do?
Currently you need at least 2x stats in most builds - piling everything into CON...? I wouldn't get behind that.

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That boat sailed away a long time ago.

Stoner81.