My thoughts of Repeating Crossbows and Doubleshot

Repeating Crossbows have been underpowered for years since Doubleshot finally fixed on this play style. The intention of the design which applies only 1/3 of Doubleshot value to Repeating Crossbows is because Repeating Crossbows can fire 3 bolts in a row. Looks reasonable? But it's not true, it's totally unfair. Repeating Crossbows really need a buff now.

Below is my thoughts of why it's unfair.

As we all know, each fighting style in DDO has its unique Attack Animation. Unlike melee attack, ranged attack does not have the concept of Attack Sequence, which leads to 4 animations while standing still and 2 animations while moving. Ranged attack uses a same attack animation for all attacks (except for same active abilities, such as Manyshot) in a specific type of ranged attack (Bow/XB/DXB/GXB/RXB). But all types of ranged attack animations (Bow/XB/DXB/GXB/RXB) differentiate from each other, and it's a huge difference.

For Repeating Crossbows, it has a far more slower animation than others due to its powerful inate ablity to fire 3 bolts in a row, which can easily kill almost everything in low-mid level contents. Overally, RXB shoot more plain bolts (before counting critical profile) than other ranged style per unit time, at a cost of fewer attack animations. You can treat each RXB attack animation as a minor burst DPS.

Now is the key part.

If we set DS as 100%, then 100% × 1/3 DS × 3 Bolts = 100%. According to this formula, RXB can shoot average 1 more bolt in each attack animation. But due to the rather slow RXB attack animation, that means RXB shoot less ammunition than other ranged style per unit time. Less ammunition from DS per unit time means RXB benifit less Damage per Second from DS!

This is my viewpoint of Doubleshot penalty on RXB since its first release, years ago. It's not a big gap/problem when there is no DXB, when there is no bow-revamp, when GXB is not popular among the players. But it's still a kind of unfairness.

A plain and non-named bow can have 17-20/×5 critical profile now. A 6 level Ranger can get up to 45 RP/DS for every bow on their hand at level 30. A DXB user can have +1 to both critical range and critical multiplier since character level 12. Even a GXB user can have TWO more critical range (inate) and ONE more critical multiplier (Mechanic C5) and there is NO Doubleshot penalty, which means far far far more burst DPS if you can get 'No Holds Barred' enhancement from inquisitive. Then what about RXB? You can only get +1 critical multiplier, that's all, and it requires you to be at least level 18 Rogue. And RXB even benifit less DPS from Doubleshot.

Devs, you really need to reconsider about the whole Repeating Crossbow fighting style (of course, some other fighting styles like Unarmed and Quaterstaff also need love), either reduce the Doubleshot penalty on RXB, or change the RXB related enhancements such as Mechanic/BattelEngineer, or BOTH!

Unfortunately, that is not how math works...

Also you completely miss time of attack animations as well as reloads. Differences matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dredre9987

Unfortunately, that is not how math works...

Also you completely miss time of attack animations as well as reloads. Differences matter.

Sorry I don't get what you mean. The math is correct, if you think there is something wrong please point out.
If you mean the Doublestrike/Doubleshot change in recent update, then I will tell you the result is same.

And I counted the whole attack animation, "Repeating crossbows have 3 animations: position to fire, fire, reload", Repeating Crossbow is obviously slower than other ranged style.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcattaii

Sorry I don't get what you mean. The math is correct, if you think there is something wrong please point out.
If you mean the Doublestrike/Doubleshot change in recent update, then I will tell you the result is same.

And I counted the whole attack animation, "Repeating crossbows have 3 animations: position to fire, fire, reload", Repeating Crossbow is obviously slower than other ranged style.

If we set DS as 100%, then 100% × 1/3 DS × 3 Bolts = 100%.

That is not how math works. You have a 33% chance at each bolt....That does not equal 100% when firing three bolts...That equals 33% at each bolt...so somewhere napkin math at 70% chance of firing an extra bolt per three shots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcattaii

If we set DS as 100%, then 100% × 1/3 DS × 3 Bolts = 100%.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dredre9987

Unfortunately, that is not how math works...

Dredre, you are correct, but you could have shown the correct forumla.

Arcattaii, continuing your assumption of 100 percent Doubleshot, all three shots would have a combined 58 percent chance of producing a fourth bolt. Why? While each bolt has alittle over 33 percent chance of being a Doubleshot, every probability subsequent to the original number is halved: .33 (first probability), .17 (second probability), and .08 (third probability).

I get what you mean. But maybe you misunderstand my expression of "1 more bolt". What I mean is not a real fourth bolt, but an mathematical expectation of "1 more bolt" of damage per RXB attack animation.

Here is the detailed formula:
Assumption 100% DS, each bolt have a 1/3 × DS chance to produce extra shot. In each RXB attack animation, you have:
1st----2nd----3rd
(1/3 × 2/3 × 2/3) × 3 = 12/27 chance to produce 1 extra shot, average damage increase = 1 × 12/27
(1/3 × 1/3 × 2/3) × 3 = 6/27 chance to produce 2 extra shot, average damage increase = 2 × 6/27
(1/3 × 1/3 × 1/3) × 1 = 1/27 chance to produce 3 extra shot, average damage increase = 3 × 1/27
If we add them together, the total damage increase is 1, per RXB attack animation. That's what I mean of "1 more bolt".

BTW,
After a long thought last night, I think there is a much more simple way to express my thoughts of the problem in the main thread:
I don't take "attack animation" into account now, the 1/3 DS penalty means each bolt of RXB only has a 33% DS (still assumption of 100% DS), so the net damage increase from DS is only 0.3333...

I just tested my two characters, lv27 Rogue for GXB & RXB & DXB, and lv30 Ranger for Bow, both with Blinding Speed feat, without counting the play style (e.g. Manyshot for Bow, No Holds Barred for XB, just auto attack), the basic result is here:
Bow: 82 shots per minute, multiplied with 100% DS is 164, net increase 82.
GXB-1: 88 shots per minute (Mechanic T5), multiplied with 100% DS is 176, net increase 88.
GXB-2: 80 shot per minute (Inquistive T5), multiplied with 100% DS is 160, net increase 80.
RXB: 53 × 3 shots per minute, multiplied with 33% DS is 211, net increase 53.
DXB: 76 × 2 shots per minute, multiplied with 50% DS is 228, net increase 76.

It looks quite reasonable again right? But, if we take the real game data and each build play style into accout, the conclusion will reverse:
For Bow users, especially Rangers. Their bow's critical profile is 17-20/×5, they can use Manyshot / Sniper Shot / Slaying Arrow plus Hunt's End (or Adrenaline, still effective currently) for an extremly large burst DPS. They gain 45% Doubleshot and 45 Ranged Power from two auto-granted feats. They can get 25%-45% Doubleshot from enhancement.
For GXB users, especially type2, they usually invest their points into extra action boosts, so they can keep the NHB active in almost every important combat. And the GXB critical profile is 15-20/×3 or ×4 if lv18 Rogue.
For DXB users, still decent style, because they fire most ammunition from plain shoot. And they gain +1 critical range/multiplier since character lv12, 16-20/×3.

And what for RXB users? They gain less DS and RP from feats and enhancements (GXB & DXB are the same at this point), the critical profile is too weak, 17-20/×3 which even requires lv18 Rogue. And what's even worse is that they should suffer a 33% penalty on the Doubleshot.

Repeating Crossbows really need a buff now, just like Bows. Either reducing the penalty, or giving them more DS, or buffing the critical profiles, or increase the base attack speed, or anything else to buff them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcattaii

I get what you mean. But maybe you misunderstand my expression of "1 more bolt". What I mean is not a real fourth bolt, but an mathematical expectation of "1 more bolt" of damage per RXB attack animation.

Here is the detailed formula:
Assumption 100% DS, each bolt have a 1/3 × DS chance to produce extra shot. In each RXB attack animation, you have:
1st----2nd----3rd
(1/3 × 2/3 × 2/3) × 3 = 12/27 chance to produce 1 extra shot, average damage increase = 1 × 12/27
(1/3 × 1/3 × 2/3) × 3 = 6/27 chance to produce 2 extra shot, average damage increase = 2 × 6/27
(1/3 × 1/3 × 1/3) × 1 = 1/27 chance to produce 3 extra shot, average damage increase = 3 × 1/27
If we add them together, the total damage increase is 1, per RXB attack animation. That's what I mean of "1 more bolt".

BTW,
After a long thought last night, I think there is a much more simple way to express my thoughts of the problem in the main thread:
I don't take "attack animation" into account now, the 1/3 DS penalty means each bolt of RXB only has a 33% DS (still assumption of 100% DS), so the net damage increase from DS is only 0.3333...

I just tested my two characters, lv27 Rogue for GXB & RXB & DXB, and lv30 Ranger for Bow, both with Blinding Speed feat, without counting the play style (e.g. Manyshot for Bow, No Holds Barred for XB, just auto attack), the basic result is here:
Bow: 82 shots per minute, multiplied with 100% DS is 164, net increase 82.
GXB-1: 88 shots per minute (Mechanic T5), multiplied with 100% DS is 176, net increase 88.
GXB-2: 80 shot per minute (Inquistive T5), multiplied with 100% DS is 160, net increase 80.
RXB: 53 × 3 shots per minute, multiplied with 33% DS is 211, net increase 53.
DXB: 76 × 2 shots per minute, multiplied with 50% DS is 228, net increase 76.

It looks quite reasonable again right? But, if we take the real game data and each build play style into accout, the conclusion will reverse:
For Bow users, especially Rangers. Their bow's critical profile is 17-20/×5, they can use Manyshot / Sniper Shot / Slaying Arrow plus Hunt's End (or Adrenaline, still effective currently) for an extremly large burst DPS. They gain 45% Doubleshot and 45 Ranged Power from two auto-granted feats. They can get 25%-45% Doubleshot from enhancement.
For GXB users, especially type2, they usually invest their points into extra action boosts, so they can keep the NHB active in almost every important combat. And the GXB critical profile is 15-20/×3 or ×4 if lv18 Rogue.
For DXB users, still decent style, because they fire most ammunition from plain shoot. And they gain +1 critical range/multiplier since character lv12, 16-20/×3.

And what for RXB users? They gain less DS and RP from feats and enhancements (GXB & DXB are the same at this point), the critical profile is too weak, 17-20/×3 which even requires lv18 Rogue. And what's even worse is that they should suffer a 33% penalty on the Doubleshot.

Repeating Crossbows really need a buff now, just like Bows. Either reducing the penalty, or giving them more DS, or buffing the critical profiles, or increase the base attack speed, or anything else to buff them.

Made up math is BS man.

...I'm done with this. Good luck

Do we really know how it works?

I mean it could be that the doubleshot scales of all three shots or both shots from dual wielding or it scales of from each shot.

If we have 100% doubleshot and shoot with a repeater and we assume it scales of all three shots we should see 4 shots each time and we should see no 5 shots.

If it scales of each shot we have 33% chance of an extra bolt on each shot. This means we have 0.67^3=0.300763 chance of not getting any extra shot. Meaning 3 bolts.

We have 3*0.67^2*0.33=0.444411 chance of shooting one extra bolt.

We have 3*0.67*0.33^2=0.218889 chance of shooting 2 extra bolts.

We have 0.33^3=0.035937 chance of shooting 3 extra bolts.

0.300763+ 0.444411+ 0.218889+ 0.035937=1. Checking it all adds up to one.

If we do: 0.300763×0+ 0.444411×1+ 0.218889×2+ 0.035937×3=0.99. so on average this is about the same.

Also one thing is that special attacks procs on all three attacks from a repeater.

I had an idea for a gnome fighter/paladin/ranger. With 6 levels of ranger and 6 fighter for +1 crit multiplier. Gnome for crit range.

This way you could use: Sniper shot, Aimed shot, Leg shot, Head shot, Divine sacrifice and maybe you could fit in exalted smite...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultinoob

I mean it could be that the doubleshot scales of all three shots or both shots from dual wielding or it scales of from each shot.

If we have 100% doubleshot and shoot with a repeater and we assume it scales of all three shots we should see 4 shots each time and we should see no 5 shots.

If it scales of each shot we have 33% chance of an extra bolt on each shot. This means we have 0.67^3=0.300763 chance of not getting any extra shot. Meaning 3 bolts.

We have 3*0.67^2*0.33=0.444411 chance of shooting one extra bolt.

We have 3*0.67*0.33^2=0.218889 chance of shooting 2 extra bolts.

We have 0.33^3=0.035937 chance of shooting 3 extra bolts.

0.300763+ 0.444411+ 0.218889+ 0.035937=1. Checking it all adds up to one.

If we do: 0.300763×0+ 0.444411×1+ 0.218889×2+ 0.035937×3=0.99. so on average this is about the same.

When helping hurts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultinoob

I mean it could be that the doubleshot scales of all three shots or both shots from dual wielding or it scales of from each shot.

If we have 100% doubleshot and shoot with a repeater and we assume it scales of all three shots we should see 4 shots each time and we should see no 5 shots.

I am pretty sure the Doubleshot scales with each shot. And I made a test for confirmation, still my level 27 Rogue Mechanic, with a 27% Doubleshot.
I recorded 100 effective attacks on training dummy, total 300 shots, 26 times of double shot observed, and 2 times of two double shot in one attack observed.
The average doudleshot is close to 9%, 1/3 of 27%. The result proved your (and my) formula.

Code:

No. 1st 2nd 3rd 0.086666667 1 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 3 0 1 0 4 0 0 0 5 0 0 0 6 0 0 1 7 0 1 0 8 1 0 0 9 0 0 0 10 0 1 0 11 0 0 0 12 0 0 0 13 0 0 0 14 0 0 0 15 1 0 0 16 0 0 0 17 0 0 0 18 1 0 0 19 0 0 0 20 0 0 0 21 0 0 0 22 1 0 0 23 0 0 0 24 0 0 0 25 0 0 0 26 0 0 0 27 0 0 0 28 0 0 0 29 0 1 0 30 0 0 0 31 0 0 1 32 0 0 0 33 0 0 0 34 0 0 0 35 0 0 0 36 0 0 0 37 0 0 0 38 0 0 0 39 0 0 0 40 0 0 0 41 0 0 0 42 0 0 0 43 0 0 0 44 1 0 0 45 0 0 0 46 0 0 0 47 0 0 0 48 0 0 0 49 0 0 0 50 0 0 0 51 0 0 0 52 0 0 0 53 1 0 0 54 0 1 0 55 0 0 0 56 0 1 0 57 0 0 0 58 0 0 0 59 1 0 1 60 0 0 0 61 0 0 0 62 0 0 0 63 0 0 0 64 0 1 0 65 0 0 0 66 0 0 0 67 0 0 1 68 0 0 0 69 0 1 0 70 0 0 0 71 0 0 0 72 0 0 0 73 0 0 0 74 0 0 0 75 0 0 1 76 0 1 1 77 0 0 0 78 0 0 0 79 0 0 0 80 0 1 0 81 0 0 0 82 0 0 0 83 0 0 0 84 1 0 0 85 0 0 0 86 0 0 0 87 0 0 0 88 0 0 0 89 0 0 0 90 0 0 0 91 0 0 0 92 0 0 0 93 0 0 0 94 0 0 1 95 0 0 0 96 0 0 0 97 0 0 0 98 0 0 0 99 0 0 0 100 0 0 1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultinoob

Also one thing is that special attacks procs on all three attacks from a repeater.

I had an idea for a gnome fighter/paladin/ranger. With 6 levels of ranger and 6 fighter for +1 crit multiplier. Gnome for crit range.

This way you could use: Sniper shot, Aimed shot, Leg shot, Head shot, Divine sacrifice and maybe you could fit in exalted smite...

Yes, maybe this is the only advantage of Repeating Crossbows. The CC ability - Pin and Otto - are more reliable on RXB than Bow and GXB. But, this advantage is way too minor.

BTW, I forgot one data: the Attack Speed curve. I created some lv15 iconic to test RXB and Bow.
The RXB can attack 49 times per minute on lv15, and 53 times per minute on lv27.
The Bow can attack 60+ times per minute on lv15, and 82 times per minute on lv30.

This is another serious problem on RXB, they become weaker and weaker as the player level growth.
This also fits the observation on real game, the RXB is the top tier attack style on low-mid level.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcattaii

I am pretty sure the Doubleshot scales with each shot. And I made a test for confirmation, still my level 27 Rogue Mechanic, with a 27% Doubleshot.
I recorded 100 effective attacks on training dummy, total 300 shots, 26 times of double shot observed, and 2 times of two double shot in one attack observed.
The average doudleshot is close to 9%, 1/3 of 27%. The result proved your (and my) formula.

Code:

No. 1st 2nd 3rd 0.086666667 1 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 3 0 1 0 4 0 0 0 5 0 0 0 6 0 0 1 7 0 1 0 8 1 0 0 9 0 0 0 10 0 1 0 11 0 0 0 12 0 0 0 13 0 0 0 14 0 0 0 15 1 0 0 16 0 0 0 17 0 0 0 18 1 0 0 19 0 0 0 20 0 0 0 21 0 0 0 22 1 0 0 23 0 0 0 24 0 0 0 25 0 0 0 26 0 0 0 27 0 0 0 28 0 0 0 29 0 1 0 30 0 0 0 31 0 0 1 32 0 0 0 33 0 0 0 34 0 0 0 35 0 0 0 36 0 0 0 37 0 0 0 38 0 0 0 39 0 0 0 40 0 0 0 41 0 0 0 42 0 0 0 43 0 0 0 44 1 0 0 45 0 0 0 46 0 0 0 47 0 0 0 48 0 0 0 49 0 0 0 50 0 0 0 51 0 0 0 52 0 0 0 53 1 0 0 54 0 1 0 55 0 0 0 56 0 1 0 57 0 0 0 58 0 0 0 59 1 0 1 60 0 0 0 61 0 0 0 62 0 0 0 63 0 0 0 64 0 1 0 65 0 0 0 66 0 0 0 67 0 0 1 68 0 0 0 69 0 1 0 70 0 0 0 71 0 0 0 72 0 0 0 73 0 0 0 74 0 0 0 75 0 0 1 76 0 1 1 77 0 0 0 78 0 0 0 79 0 0 0 80 0 1 0 81 0 0 0 82 0 0 0 83 0 0 0 84 1 0 0 85 0 0 0 86 0 0 0 87 0 0 0 88 0 0 0 89 0 0 0 90 0 0 0 91 0 0 0 92 0 0 0 93 0 0 0 94 0 0 1 95 0 0 0 96 0 0 0 97 0 0 0 98 0 0 0 99 0 0 0 100 0 0 1

Yes, maybe this is the only advantage of Repeating Crossbows. The CC ability - Pin and Otto - are more reliable on RXB than Bow and GXB. But, this advantage is way too minor.

BTW, I forgot one data: the Attack Speed curve. I created some lv15 iconic to test RXB and Bow.
The RXB can attack 49 times per minute on lv15, and 53 times per minute on lv27.
The Bow can attack 60+ times per minute on lv15, and 82 times per minute on lv30.

This is another serious problem on RXB, they become weaker and weaker as the player level growth.
This also fits the observation on real game, the RXB is the top tier attack style on low-mid level.

Nice work

I agree

Repeater penalty is too high with no trade off it needs to have something else to offer if double shot penalty

So much of ranger is built on Doubleshot even Battle engineer has double shot in the tree

It’s the only weapon that gets 1/3 benefits from its enhancements, also epic past lives, epic feat, epic destiny, items & gear sets, filigrees

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcattaii

I am pretty sure the Doubleshot scales with each shot. And I made a test for confirmation, still my level 27 Rogue Mechanic, with a 27% Doubleshot.
I recorded 100 effective attacks on training dummy, total 300 shots, 26 times of double shot observed, and 2 times of two double shot in one attack observed.
The average doudleshot is close to 9%, 1/3 of 27%. The result proved your (and my) formula.

I made an error, but you tests shows otherwise. I forgot i think they changed doublestrike and doubleshot to do double damage instead of proccing a second attack. So your test data confuses me...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultinoob

I made an error, but you tests shows otherwise. I forgot i think they changed doublestrike and doubleshot to do double damage instead of proccing a second attack. So your test data confuses me...

Sorry making you confused.. Yes they changed how Doublestrike/Doubleshot work, but the result is same. When DS happened, they now just double the damage (or tripple, if possible, but only on ranged weapon), and there will be an icon on the 1st number to show this attack is Doublestrike/Doubleshot/Trippleshot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultinoob

I mean it could be that the doubleshot scales of all three shots or both shots from dual wielding or it scales of from each shot.

If we have 100% doubleshot and shoot with a repeater and we assume it scales of all three shots we should see 4 shots each time and we should see no 5 shots.

If it scales of each shot we have 33% chance of an extra bolt on each shot. This means we have 0.67^3=0.300763 chance of not getting any extra shot. Meaning 3 bolts.

We have 3*0.67^2*0.33=0.444411 chance of shooting one extra bolt.

We have 3*0.67*0.33^2=0.218889 chance of shooting 2 extra bolts.

We have 0.33^3=0.035937 chance of shooting 3 extra bolts.

0.300763+ 0.444411+ 0.218889+ 0.035937=1. Checking it all adds up to one.

If we do: 0.300763×0+ 0.444411×1+ 0.218889×2+ 0.035937×3=0.99. so on average this is about the same.

Also one thing is that special attacks procs on all three attacks from a repeater.

I had an idea for a gnome fighter/paladin/ranger. With 6 levels of ranger and 6 fighter for +1 crit multiplier. Gnome for crit range.

This way you could use: Sniper shot, Aimed shot, Leg shot, Head shot, Divine sacrifice and maybe you could fit in exalted smite...

Yeah the average is not about the same if it was 99% we would get 5-6 shots consistently that is how it worked before the penalty was in place

Using shot attacks with repeater is wonky as well they can disappear into the reload cycle

I’d rather double shot penalties was removed that attempt to depend on wonky shots which don’t even close to bring it on with other ranged weapons