Idea for Caster Druid for Hardcore

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05-15-2021, 09:22 PM
Gnominal_Aphasia

Idea for Caster Druid for Hardcore

Hello,

I love Druids... Wolf form casters are very fun.

So, playing on HC at the moment, and last night was looking at build ideas on google and saw a Sorc 9/Wiz 7/FvS 4 build... I know right, that isn't anything to do with druid. But yeah, but no, but yeah...

the build (and I forget where I found it and have no browser history... if anyone recognises it, please advise below... thanks!) was a Shiradi build utilizing Efficient Metamagics... so that got me intrigued and I thought of Druids and an idea grew

Druid 18 Wiz 2... mega nuker, with 7 SLAs and all other evocation spells using Maximize for 1 SP by spending 16 AP into Efficient Maximize from 3 Enhancement Trees. Druids don't get the most SP so I think that by maximizing the DPS per SP that it should perform well.

Race: I will probably take Aasimar

32 point HC build stats:

STR 8
DEX 8
CON 16
INT 14
WIS 20
CHA 8

HEROIC FEATS: Maximize, Empower, Quicken, Extend, SF Evocation, Mental Toughness, Improved Mental Toughness

Skills: Spellcraft, Heal, UMD, Spot, Balance and whatever you like

Enhancements:

Season's Herald 47 AP
- 5 Cores
- Produce Flame III, Wax and Wane
- Creeping Cold III, Wax and Wane, Efficient Maximize III
- Call Lightning III, Wax and Wane, Autumn's Wind, WISDOM
- Salt Ray III, Spring Resurgence I, Strength of the Solstice, WISDOM
- Word of Balance III, Elementary Mastery III, Time and Tide, Winter's Heart

Archmage 9 AP
- Shield SLA
- Traditional Caster II, Spell Critical
- Efficient Maximize II

Palemaster 11 AP
- Dark Reaping
- Deathless Vigor II
- Efficient Maximize III

Nature's Protector 6 AP
- 2 Cores
- Enchanted Defence III, Fey's Blessing I

Aasimar 7 AP
- 5 Cores

Epic Destiny: Primal Avatar
+6 Druid Caster Levels
+3 Evocation and Transmutation DCs
Tsunami (Quickened and Maximized)

Epic Feats:
- Master of the Wilds
- Burst of Glacial Wrath
- Embolden
- Intensify or Epic Will

Epic Destiny Feats:
- Epic Power Cold
- Epic Power Electricity?
- Mass Frog

Legendary Feat: Scion of the Plane of Air

NOTE on Caster Levels and Maximum Caster Levels:
- Produce Flame default MCL 15 (*25) (**27)
- Creeping Cold default MCL 18 (*28) (**30)
- Call Lightning default MCL 15 (*25) (**27)
- Salt Ray default MCL 10 (*20) (**22)
- Word of Balance default MCL 20 (*30) (**32)
(* all the above spells receive +10 MCL from Epic Feat Master of the Wilds)

Season's Herald full 6 Core version provides:
+2 CL from Cores 2 and 6
+2 MCL from Cores 3 and 6
+1 CL and +1 MCL from Tier 5 Time and Tide
TOTAL +3 CL and +3 MCL

** Season's Herald 5 Core version provides +2 CL and +2 MCL

Primal Avatar + Season's Herald provide +8 CL, so the 5 SLA affected by Master of the Wilds would end up looking like:
- Produce Flame MCL 27, CL 26
- Creeping Cold default MCL 30, CL 26 (which effectively makes this CL 24)
- Call Lightning default MCL 27, CL 26
- Salt Ray default MCL 22, CL 26
- Word of Balance default MCL 32 CL 26

The main two drawbacks being Creeping Cold and Word of Balance losing a potential of 6 CL each. On the upside, now when your Druid Caster faces almost any enemy, you can use normal spells between Cooldowns such as Greater Creeping Cold, Ice Flowers, Envelopping Swarm with Maximize at only 1 SP extra cost for a 10-20% increased damage in End Game (and much more so in later Heroics and Early Epics).

So, do you think it would be a viable alternative to pure Druid?

Thanks for your comments.
05-15-2021, 09:59 PM
unbongwah

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gnominal_Aphasia

Sorc 9/Wiz 7/FvS 4 build

There have been various iterations on this concept but that particular split sounds like the Gold Shiradi build. You'll also find undead Shiradi variants. They fell out of favor when Shiradi spammers got nerfed in the ED revamp a couple of years ago. Although I saw Tilomere post a new build so hey everything is cyclical in this game.

Quote:

Efficient Maximize from 3 Enhancement Trees

I thought they nerfed this and you're not allowed to take the same Efficient Metamagic from multiple classes anymore. I know you can't take Efficient Maximize from Pale Master + Archmage; taking one will lock out the other.

https://i.imgur.com/CNeA68d.jpg

I have Efficient Maximize maxed out in the Archmage tree. When I select Efficient Metamagic from Pale Master, notice the red outline around Efficient Maximize and the Accept button is greyed out preventing me from selecting it.
05-16-2021, 04:51 AM
Gnominal_Aphasia

Quote:

Originally Posted by unbongwah

I thought they nerfed this and you're not allowed to take the same Efficient Metamagic from multiple classes anymore. I know you can't take Efficient Maximize from Pale Master + Archmage; taking one will lock out the other.

I have Efficient Maximize maxed out in the Archmage tree. When I select Efficient Metamagic from Pale Master, notice the red outline around Efficient Maximize and the Accept button is greyed out preventing me from selecting it.

Thanks very much, Unbongwah! Yes, it was the Gold Shiradi Build... I did wonder about the possibility of a nerf and did try to check on wiki and found this [https://ddowiki.com/page/Efficient_M...%20metamagic.] which states "These effects stack with the similarly-named enhancements, but do not stack with like item effects" which must have been correct when the Gold Shiradi Build was viable.

Ho hum, back to the drawing board... thanks again!

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EDIT... Cross-Class Efficient Metamagic enhancements DO [can] STACK... I created a test Iconic Bard and took 2 levels of Sorcerer and Wizard... I can select both Efficient Maximize from Air Savant and Archmage, but as Unbongwah correctly wrote, the Palemaster Efficient Maximize was sunsequently blocked, as it was from the other Savant Trees. This means, for example, a vanilla spell like Sonic Blast [non-SLA] costs 11 AP with Maximize (instead of 29)... Greater Shout would cost only 34 SP with Maximize (instead of 55); the loss of 4 Bard Caster levels for this spell from taking 2 levels each of Sorcerer and Wizard would be somewhat compensated by +1 Bard Caster Level from Song of Arcane Might and another +1 Sonic Caster Level from the 1st Core of Air Savant (CL 18 instead of CL20 for pure Bard).

https://mega.nz/file/nEcHkCDQ#bOTCaW...iAjU9Jl0EBYPJg

If only I knew how to post the image?!

I need to rethink the build idea, though needing to further multi-class is a little frightening...

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EDIT2... **** their eyes... created an Iconic Druid Sorcerer and ran into the same old problem... wanted to test if Efficient Heighten would stack between Season's Herald and Water Savant (they don't) but found that neither did Efficient Maximize from SH and WS.

************************************************** ***************************

EDIT3... tested compatibility between Alchemist, Sorcerer and Wizard... Alchemist has same incompatibility as Druid.

************************************************** ***************************

EDIT4... tested Efficient Maximize compatibility for a Druid/Cleric/FvS... doesn't work; subsequently tested a Cleric/FvS build and it doesn't work either.

************************************************** ***************************

EDIT5 [last one]... tested out compatibility between Druid and Alchemist, just to try and complete all permutations; of course it didn't work.

************************************************** ***************************

CONCLUSIONS (TLDR):
Cross-Class Efficient Maximize optimization does not work now in general. It does still work between Sorceror and Wizard (example Archmage and Air Savant) but this seems to be the only case. Tests using Druid and Alchemist, Druid, Cleric and FvS, and Druid, Sorcerer and Wizard DO NOT allow Efficient Maximize stacking. It would seem that only Bards could effectively benefit from Efficient Maximize splashes in Sorceror and Wizard, and truth be told it would be fairly limited as outside Spellsinger's SLAs, standard evocation spells are limited: Sonic Blast [11 AP for Maximized version], Soundburst, Shout and Greater Shout.

For Druids, my wishful idea of being able to obtain Maximized non-SLA spells for 1 additional SP (via Season's Herald and two other Class Trees) is not to be. Oh well, I wish I could say its been fun.

Stay safe!
05-16-2021, 01:14 PM
unbongwah

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gnominal_Aphasia

Cross-Class Efficient Maximize optimization does not work now in general. It does still work between Sorceror and Wizard (example Archmage and Air Savant) but this seems to be the only case.

Honestly I would presume that's a bug / oversight because I can't imagine SSG blocked every other Efficient Maximize combo EXCEPT this one deliberately. Like "yeah let's leave this Easter Egg and see how long it takes the minmaxers to exploit it so we can nerf it muhahahaha" *Lightning flashes behind Severlin in SSG's evil lair*
08-09-2021, 03:43 PM
Gnominal_Aphasia

Hey, just to close the loop on some other various Efficient Maximize combos...

I was reading this excellent build where Tilomere shows that Sorc Savant + FvS AoV Efficient Maximizes DO STACK.

Was trying to build a fun CHARISMA-based SWF Death Knight Priest (10 Cleric / 2 Fighter / 8 Wizard) to grab the tier 4 Negative Energy Burst SLA from Divine Disciple, with 14 AP into Pale Master, 4 AP into War Priest, 11 into Feydark and the rest into Eldritch Knight... until I realised (doh) that I didn't have enough AP to do everything. Anyways, I tested if DD and PM Efficient Maximizes stack and THEY DO NOT.