Printable View
please stop with the forgotten realms stuff and continue developing the eberron campaing please his infuriating that you make the shadarkais (a 4ยบ edition race) and dont have a eberron specific race.
I understand that adapt the skills of the kalastar and replicants is very difficult but you could have put the changeling.
Also having introduced the quori you could have put some psionic class
sorry I just realized that if there is a race of Eberron the warforged. My bad but seriusly stop with the faerun campaing please if I wanted tho play in the faerun campaing I will be playing the neverwinter game I play ddo because is eberron based.
This post is... interesting, and illustrates the divide between people that play DDO because it's a good MMO and those that play because it's based on D&D. The thought that you would go play a badly designed, exploit filled game like Neverwinter, simply based on its "campaign" tells us the type of player you are, which is fine, but DDO is still releasing content in both setting, which should be enough to keep you happy. Some of us like Forgotten Realms and shouldn't have to play an inferior game to experience it.
I'm from the group of people who like Eberron over Forgotten Realms, and one of the reasons I got hooked into DDO was because it offered the setting I liked (Eberron) with the rules edition I prefer (D&D 3.5).
Currently, I don't like that much the direction the game is taking. The game is shifting away from Eberron and delving too much into Faerun. I can understand the reasons: Forgotten Realms is better-known that most of the other D&D settings (Greyhawk, Ravenloft, Mystara, Planescape, Spelljammer, Dark Sun, and even Al-Qadim), perhaps more than the other setting that also have loads of lore (namely, Dragonlance). The company that publishes the rules, Wizards of the Coast, is embracing Forgotten Realms for this very same reason: D&D Next is pretty much adopting Faerun as its core campaign setting.
That doesn't mean I have to like it. I begrudgingly accept it because it's the will of the majority, because they prefer a "classic sword & sorcery" game rather than the myriad of offerings Eberron grants. You can pretty easily play sword & sorcery/high medieval fantasy just by focusing between the areas of Aundair and Breland, but that'd be limiting the wealth of the setting's main continent (which is Khorvaire, north of where Stormreach, the current city, lies). However, an entire setting allows handwaving away the things the rest of the players don't like (but, note, have agreed to use. Don't tell me you'd throw away airships in a heartbeat because they don't belong to Faerun, considering just how few people actually know about skyships and how increasingly RARE they are; never mind having Warforged).
However, what I can say disgusts me about the current direction of D&D is that they're pretty much abandoning Eberron. jalont, I can't really agree with your argument that Turbine is releasing content for both places: what it's really doing is releasing a wealth of new content for Faerun, and if the claim is high, then it updates some of the stuff from Eberron. For example: how many times have people claimed for, say, updating Restless Isles to make it worthwhile? On the other hand, what new content has been released for Eberron (the rearrangement to the Harbor doesn't count)? Stormreach and Xen'drik are not the only places in Eberron, just like Eveningstar is not the whole of the Forgotten Realms. I mean, why not show Fairhaven, or Wroat, which are almost right in the middle of "medieval fantasy" and Renaissance? Or, go wild and show Riedra and its dystopic nightmare, towering Sharn, virtuous Flamekeep (and see the Silver Flame in all its splendor), or the architecture of Argonessen? For purposes of the game, Eberron is not even 25% explored.
Perhaps if they limited a bit to expanding both realms, it'd be decent. However, they also took to slightly shift the rules from 3.5 to a hybrid of 3.5 and 4e. The X[W] notation, using "Channel Divinity" instead of Turn Undead, the Enhancement Pass showering all classes with loads of powers...the 4e creep is intense.
Coincidentally, there's another system that uses 4e and that has its main setting as Faerun; Neverwinter. This is basically the OP's argument: "if I want to play 4e Faerun, I might just shift to Neverwinter, as it's designed with both by default". Arguing that it's a "badly designed, exploit-filled game" and that the thought shows the type of player the OP is...doesn't really make much sense. What kind of player the OP is? From what I can interpret (which is a rage-induced post; OP, next time, try to post with a clear head instead of posting on impulse), he's unhappy with the direction where the game is headed, and that is basically to compete with Neverwinter by becoming its clone in just about every aspect (a bit exaggerate, but the "just about" basically includes its favored setting and most of the rules, with the underlying assumption that "all characters must be balanced and things should grow with the character", which is inimical to 4e and a good deal of why some people like me are repulsed by the rules). Personally, while I understand that attempting to pass a system such as Psionics into MMO game mechanics is an exercise in futility (aside from the fluff, it'd be basically like the existing magic system, and hence unoriginal), so a great deal of Eberron lore (Kalashtar, Half-Giants, Eneko, Half-Ogre, the Inspired, Riedra, Adar, the remainder of Sarlona, and the existence of psionics) cannot be translated. On the other hand: what about gnomes, which are part of the Core books and the only race needed to complete the Player's Handbook? Illusions are pretty common in the game, Halflings already exist, and the fluff of Zil gnomes is vastly superior to any interpretation of gnomes ever (including Tinker Gnomes; in fact, BECAUSE of Tinker Gnomes). Also; what about Shifters? They are part of the first 4e Monster Manual, they are an intrinsic part of Eberron, and the only things that might make them impossible to make were pretty much solved when Turbine released the Druid (namely, how to work their Shifting). These are pending assignments for Turbine, if they intend to pad Eberron a bit more.
However, we've seen the second X-Pac, and it mentions the Shadowfell. Not the Plane of Shadow, not Mabar or Dolurrh (which together comprise the Eberron Shadowfell), but its 4e notation. Before even thinking about adding missing races, they add a race that's not part of the 3.5 edition (the closest thing would be the Dark Creeper and the Dark Stalker from either MM2 or Fiend Folio, and even then...) I'd love to see an X-Pac that took you to the true ending path for all Epics and potential Immortals: Sigil, the City of Doors (the setting of Planescape), instead of treating Eberron as "Hero-Land' and Faerun as "Epic-Land". I really want to see DDO becoming the MMO of Dungeons & Dragons, not the MMO of Forgotten Realms (but you start on Eberron)...if that's the intention of the Developers, that is. I wouldn't personally mind having DDO be Eberron-exclusive, but I'm willing to make compromises. Which is the reason why I keep playing whenever I have the time, and why I might consider, if I simply had the money to do so, in buying more points for stuff like Epic Destinies and Half-Orcs and maybe one or two Adventure Packs in Faerun. That's the kind of compromises I'm willing to make; not watching my favorite parts of the game being replaced by those I don't. Giving equal trait to everyone (and by that, I mean those who might want to see an X-Pac dealing with Ravenloft, and those who might want to get their characters to near-godlike levels in Sigil), even if people who wish to play expressively on Faerun don't like that, just as how people who like to play expressively on Eberron have to withstand playing on Faerun to bring completion to the game.
I believe that's a good (albeit subjective, with interjections of my opinion scattered in) way to explain the feeling of the OP. He feels like the developers are abandoning Eberron in favor of Faerun, and that if he really was interested in playing in Faerun like most of the other people, he'd rather play Neverwinter. That doesn't mean he wants to play NW, or that he cares about the bugs or the exploits in the other game (isn't the list of Known Issues here large enough? Isn't every MMO plagued with their own bugs and exploits?); his argument is that he's disgusted with the idea of Faerun-glomping. Perhaps I might be wrong, but that's what I feel when I read his posts (aside from some exasperation). Perhaps his mistake is that he's unwilling to make a compromise, but he's not very clear on that regard. On my part, I'll remain playing this game because of all the time and effort spent on it, and because I haven't even reached a fourth of the total content (and perhaps less than half of all the F2P content), but I expect that when I reach Epic levels, I see Eberron remain a viable setting to play in.
Neverwinter is actually almost completely unlike 4E, in terms of mechanics. It borrows some terminology, but that's about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by TGOskar
DDO is actually far closer to 4E mechanics than Neverwinter. Which is great, since 4E is an excellent game. Neverwinter would have been better if it had actually used it.
Having played both NW and DDO as well as 2nd/3rd/3.5/4.0 and finally pathfinder (kinda like 3.75). i do understand greatly where the op comes from.
The story line for the forgotten realms we had so far was not up to par. definitely not worthy of epic level story telling.
We are supposed to be the heroes, not a bunch of baby sitters to a bunch backwater hicks. I have seen higher level writing in slash fiction.
Turbine departed the Eberron lands it seems, since U14 no Eberron packs came out, yes GH was revisited but all the ground work was already laid out, the EGH build leaked out years ago on lamania.
Dev's rarely realize what their customer want, they might have tried though.
people asked for gnomes for years: still not here,
people asked for shifters for years: still not here, we have the tech now,
people asked for the continuation of Shaverat and the 2 other teleport points for years: still not here,
people asked for Khorvaire content for years: still not here,
people asked for WF to be fixed for years: still not done, remember them being meant as a melee race?
seeing what they did change, although we didn't ask for it:
poison immunity nerf
WF race nerf
gear nerfs
randomly generated "Named" loot.
And the list goes on...
makes me think that turbine does what it wants or is ordered to from above, to DDO as it sees fit without caring too much about its customers.
Are there really people in DDO who think they got forgotten realm material because they asked for it?
Part of that decision might have been:
Some where on top, some one wanted more cash and thus needed more customers. and thus picked forgotten realms over Eberron because its older and more well known.
money mattered, not the wishes of the customers. Cold? Cynical? Close enough to the truth?
Another factor might have been Wizards of the coast. when they kicked out the best developers and designed 4.0 many people dropped WotC and followed most of the old dev's to Piazo's pathfinder .
loosing so much customers, WotC might have been inclined to slim down other settings for the most well known setting. We all know that turbine is more then inclined to take hints from WotC.
So what to do about it all?
Keep playing the Eberron content and refuse to buy/play forgotten realms stuff, warn away people from it. Use social media, gaming websites etc.
Turn evening star into a waste land and all the newbies will feel just as abandoned as they did in the harbor, making them leave asap.
Your voice isn't important to them, money is.
The proof is everywhere in DDO, shard options, DDO store, all filled with enticement to spend money.
They could have made that same money if they: cleared all the bugs, stopped the server lags that came with U19 and was supposed to be helped with U19.1. Created proper gear, stopped nerfing old gear, fixed in game bug reporting, etc etc etc.
i would even payed 50 bucks for having that shard mess removed from the UI.
Balance the following things out:
the bugs, the lag, the ingredient/crafting inventory mess, the lr bug, the bad writing, the blatant money grabbing, bland evening star quests, the horrid new loot and many more....
against:
Having fun with friends, running old Eberron contentand story telling, enjoying the character building.
If the negative part outweighs the fun consider playing less to no DDO, its no shame, half my old friends list consists of people who only log in for daily dice and a chat, they all gave up on DDO a long time ago.
another option is: play less DDO, get a bunch of 3,5 Eberron books toghether with the 3.75 pathfinder books i mentioned(my bet is that you have those already), Google the original Eberron Dev's (i know Keith baker is still at it), set up a real life D&D group.
Experience Eberron as it was intended. A great steam punk setting. Something certain dev's seem to forget.
why this advice?
I think fighting the forgotten realms will only cost you energy, energy that would have been better spend enjoying life.
Calculate the chance of success (specially with turbines track record) and the amount of energy needed to accomplish this.
All your frustration might eat away at you like a malignant growth, similar to how DDO seems to be getting tainted in your eyes. Will you engage this hopeless, futile battle or evade it entirely?
Not only does it seem that DDO is gradually abandoning Eberron, it also seems like they're really de-emphasizing low-level content with the addition of iconics and what we've heard about the epic true reincarnation so far where a character might start out level 10 or 15 or whatever because of all the epic destiny experience he'd accrued before TRing. I don't really mind this direction the game is taking but I might end up missing all the harbor content my characters used to run and which in the future may no longer be necessary.
Fist of all, I'm a huge fan of the Eberron Campaign setting. I mean big time fan. The reason is simple. If you want to be a real hero and make a difference, you play Eberron. If you want to be another mook, then play Forgotten Realms. It's that simple. But, let's not go into that right now. Let's stick to DDO.
The main problem I'm finding with the developers is that, as some of the other posters have mentioned, there has been little addition to the Eberron campaign setting. There are many things that can be expanded upon. You guys felt limited here? Why not make Sharn? There are a multitude of options there. Not enough? Send us to Sarlona. Home to the psionic races, the Inspired and the Quori. Not enough? Well there's always the Mournlands for those of us who wish to into suicidal final climatic battles in which you cannot heal. Not enough? How about adding Book of Nine Swords and sending us back into the middle of the Last War to stop someone from trying to alter the end result? I'd pay anything for an expansion like that. As far as available options, there was really no reason to expand into Faerun. There were plenty of places to explore in Khorvaire. That's not even going into the politics between the houses and governments.
However, I'm willing to become a pragmatist and compromise. You want to add FR stuff. Okay. That's fine. Just do me one little favor. Add Psionics (both races and classes), Gnomes, Half-Giants (my fav race), Shifters and maybe Incarnum (cause its fun to play a totemist). Basically, just try and add as much Eberron as you do Faerun so that all players can be happy. Really guys. It's not much to ask. I know you guys can do it.
Also as a side note consider giving the Kensai tree the ability to do elemental weapons. They are supposed to basically customize their weapons to however they wish and it would really fit.
Last adventure arc to Eberron was U13. More than a year ago. While they finished the Stormreaver arc, its development basically boils down to the missives in the explorer zone and Fall of Truth, since the flagging quests' lore (not only map/mobs) are basically the same as their heroic version.
I have not yet played through all the quests in the expansion to talk about them. But I really hate that we switched to fight Daelkyr, god-like liches, high-ranked devils, and an Overlord to go back to the woods fight CR 30 wolves and bears. This just doesn't "feel" right. I mean, CR 30 spiders in demonweb is expected, as Lolth is a goddess of spiders. But randomly meeting CR 30 wolves and bandits in a high-travelled road is something that breaks my willing suspension of disbelief.
They wanted to raise the level cap to 30? Fine, but make stories and sceneries and locations and lore that match that.
In the interest of fairness, there are legendary bears, but they aren't meant to be very challenging. At most, they're CR 9-10. Behemoth creatures are CR 18-19, on the other hand. Not sure about it, but I don't think those CR 30 wolves are either Legendary, or Colossal Outsiders that just HAPPEN to be animals. Sigil, on the other hand, definitely would allow for those...Quote:
Originally Posted by nibel
It suggests something a tad horrifying, on the other hand. Harry? The Abbot? Demon Queen? They're high CR creatures in Eberron, but are essentially short change in Faerun. Really, it'd feel like the great heroes of Eberron are almost meaningless in Faerun. I know that Eberron is meant to be a setting where low-level heroes are meant to shine, but this...is kinda ridiculous...
Actually is the opposite. Eberron is a place to the high-level player characters to shine because almost all high-level NPCs in the setting are either evil (Daelkyr, Lord of Blades, The Shadow in the Flame, Lords of Dust, Inspired), impotent outside of very limiting borders (Oalian, Jaela, the Undying Court), or just don't care about Khorvaire (Argonnessen, Erandis). Thus, the player's characters that reach two-digit levels are very probable to be ones of the most powerful human being in Khorvaire, and the only ones capable to defeat powerful threats like what we fought in DDO mid-high heroic levels.Quote:
Originally Posted by TGOskar
It is not that is try to make low level characters shine. Is that it assumes that almost everyone is low level, and player's characters are special because of their innate ability to quickly grow in power. A great veteran soldier from the Last War might be exceptional for being a 3rd level Warrior (not Fighter), not a 24th level Fighter, no matter that he fought dozens of hard battles and have years of experience. For the average 1st level commoner he is very skilled. Not too much for your average Fighter PC.
And that is why every Eberron fan simply hates Io'lokar.
eberron vs the realms.
i must say that in pnp i had problem with both campaign worlds.
in eberron the god system is a piece of **** (really. you can tell they never got far into it). even the high prists never sure if their gods really exist .what's more everyone who die goes to the same place the gray realm of deloria where they slowly turn into nothingness.were you good or bad? evil or just? doesn't matter you end up in the same place as the other guy. which is why undead are actually worship by the elven courts. i made my first toon in an eberron world an undead fighter. only to find out i was fighting the wrong side. that aside. since the gods are a big ?? in the sky high level toons have only themselves to look for help.
the realms.... i like to use a phrase a friend of mine used about them:
"forgotten realms,where you can't spit out a window without hitting an epic level elven wizard"
so many npc that even if you let the high level evil dush-bag get away. some other do-gooder will stop him.
me?
why, i much prefer Ravenloft. where there is no such thing as challenge balance. you are level 1 cleric. and yes that is a master vampire in front of you. have fun...
I love both worlds, but yes, more eberron quests, please!
Sound to me like you didn't actually "got" what they intended with Eberron deities.Quote:
Originally Posted by masterzzan
First of all, Eberron is a world with shades of gray, and very little black and white. But this couldn't play well with D&D black and white philoshophy, where you have things like protection from evil, detect evil, and smite evil, all acessible for 1st level characters. So, the way they chose to play with this is not enlarging the "neutral" tier, where almost everything would be Neutra, but actually make the bad/good flag less relevant. There is a nice article from Keith Baker that goes deeper on this side of Eberron, but it is very important to understand why the deities are not something you can plane shift and say hi.
The major point behind the unknown gods is that it returns to being a matter of faith. If you can go to the astral sea and guarantee that Onatar is real and directly interested in Eberron, worshipping him is a matter of affiliation, not faith. Faith is believing without proof.
So, since you have direct conflict as ebrron bread and butter (conflicting sections of the same faith, throne wars throwing brothers of faith in opposite sides in the battlegrounds...), keeping the gods out of interfering make things less clearcut. Eg, if you can fight Aundair and not lost your divine powers while your brothers of faith lost theirs, this mean you are on the right side. But if both side have divine casters of the same faith working on conflicting objectives, the lack of divine intervention just mean that either of them can be "right".
Note that we DO have proof of some forces that grants divine power and can physically be verified with your own eyes (in theory): The Silver Flame and The Undying Court. And in some cases, people that carry divine power without any known deity supporting him (Lord of Blades' clerics and paladins, Blood of Vol priests, godless clerics that are an option on 3e...). Thus, making even the argument that "divine power comes from devotion" discussable.
Erm...I feel this post is a good example of "pot calling the kettle black".Quote:
Originally Posted by masterzzan
As nibel says, the system of divine magic in Eberron was left deliberately ambiguous in order to reinforce the concept of blind faith (as redundant as it may seem). Eberron is the first game that takes advantage of "philosophical" clerics and the ambiguity of divine magic. In vanilla 3.5 (for those who don't know), Clerics are not necessarily bound to a patron deity to acquire their powers (this is something that only appears in Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance); instead, they can follow a philosophy of life from which they draw their power. As Greyhawk, the core setting of D&D 3rd Edition, had an incredibly strong influence from its deities (much like FR), this idea was just kept mostly hidden within the rules of Clerics. Eberron, on the other hand, doesn't force its Clerics to follow a patron deity, and plays fast and loose with the existing ones.
Notice that, in many ways, the core concept of Eberron involves "the DM has more tools to shape the world". In one table, the deities may be real and present: Onatar might appear and act a miracle in front of befuddled mortals. In another table, Onatar might have never existed at all, and nobody knows who figured this out. In fact, many of the existing faiths of Eberron are philosophical in concept: the Blood of Vol and the Path of Light are akin to Taoism than to any faith whatsoever. The Silver Flame doesn't follow a deity at all, but the concept of good; in a traditional system, something like the Hidden Flame or High Cardinal Krozen couldn't exist (the former is a cult within the faith that worships the dark aspects of the Flame, the latter is one of the high priests of the faith, a LE high priest of a religion of Good who doesn't plan on undermining the faith, and oddly enough thinks of the faith's glory days). The Lord of Blades is literally a charismatic movement where an entire race follows a walking, talking being who lacks deific power (one of the reasons you can fight it as a raid boss over here before going Epic). The Godforged believe that they have to construct their god. And then there's the druidic sects, such as the Gatekeepers (the orcish druidic sect that protects Eberron from otherworldly incursions) or the Children of Winter (a druidic sect that actually wants the end of the world to happen). The Undying Court is really ancestor worship, and the Valenar follow a similar faith: one is more physical, the other more philosophical.
If the gods were real (namely, the Sovereign Host and the Dark Six, and maybe the draconic gods from Argonessen), then the other faiths wouldn't have that much traction, as the Mockery could easily appear to a Vol or Dragon Below cultist and say "I'm real, what you follow isn't as powerful as me", and probably instantly convert them to their faith (note, the latter cultist follows ancestral fiends from the first ages of Eberron). Only those with physical presence (mostly the Silver Flame, and potentially the Lord of Blades, the Undying Court and the Path of Light because of what implies) might retain some traction, but the rest would basically cease to exist. It's not impossible for a DM to justify their physical existence, of course, but that doesn't mean it's the Word of God of the setting's creators (unlike, say, FR, where Ao is the overdeity and gods are born and die and people can reach the stature of deities through several means, as that's part of the setting made by Ed Greenwood and he hasn't opposed to the idea).
As for Dolurrh: note that 4e has everyone cross into the Shadowfell, which is an extension of what happens in Dolurrh. There are several ways to bypass that (you forgot to mention that the followers of the Silver Flame believe in "joining with the Flame'; a.k.a. becoming part of the godhead (which is one of the possible outcomes of a soul in the "afterlife"). Kalashtar never go into Dolurrh; they are basically reborn, and if their entire lineage is exterminated, then the reassembled Quori returns to Dal Quor and is reborn again). It's unknown what happens to the Warforged, and it's suggested that the Valenar ancestors exist within Valenar territory, as part of ancient artifacts and through the deeds of people. Thus, Dolurrh isn't necessarily the final destination, but it's the most common one, and it brings a very different perspective on the typical afterlife.
That cleared (though you're welcome to clear it further, nibel), I don't understand how you can have problems with two campaign settings and yet not have troubles with a setting that's far more brutal than the former two. Ravenloft is a horror setting, and for a multitude of reasons: the Deathlords that rule each terrain are prisoners of their domains, and suffer terrible punishments. People drawn into Ravenloft don't merely face master vampires, or powerful death knights; they face tortured master vampires and imprisoned, punished powerful death knights, whose domains are mere reflections of their personal torment, and cannot escape from it. I can understand that you like the fluff of Ravenloft, but this setting is a world best read about than played within.
TGOskar and Nibel
Thank you for explaining the beauty of Eberron far better then i ever could. (darn language barier)
Yes to more Eberron content!