enervation vs con-op

getting ready to TR my first life wizard and have enough green steel mats accumulated to make 1 item to take with me. goal for 2nd life is just to get back up to 20 and TR again, so not really worried about epic content this next life.

my plan is to construct a 45 HP glove. question I want to throw out to the arcane community is which would the better second attribute - enervation or con-op. I was leaning towards con-op but have read a few posts that extol the benefits of enervation. though I think they were mainly concerned with end game Epic Elite where negative levels can shave off significant HPs.

or is there a better attribute to add that I am overlooking.

next time through, I will probably create a spell pt item but figured the HPs would be better. I have an ioun stone to help cover the SPs for now.

Con-op all the way

the enervate is nice but it never seems to trigger all that much.

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Originally Posted by thegreatneil

Con-op all the way

the enervate is nice but it never seems to trigger all that much.

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I concur.

You didn't say what your next life build would be, but even for a straight melee the temp HP proc from con-op is great. If you're playing anything with a blue bar then con-op is miles ahead of the other options except possibly if you already have a torc.

Agreed with the group, concop all the way.

On a side note: +45 HP gloves w/concop is possibly the most perfect arcane caster gs item you can make. Good choice on the gloves spot. Now watch, the new xpack will introduce some unbelievably uber caster gloves just to mess up all our greensteel gloves, heh.

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Originally Posted by kendo

getting ready to TR my first life wizard and have enough green steel mats accumulated to make 1 item to take with me. goal for 2nd life is just to get back up to 20 and TR again, so not really worried about epic content this next life.

my plan is to construct a 45 HP glove. question I want to throw out to the arcane community is which would the better second attribute - enervation or con-op. I was leaning towards con-op but have read a few posts that extol the benefits of enervation. though I think they were mainly concerned with end game Epic Elite where negative levels can shave off significant HPs.

or is there a better attribute to add that I am overlooking.

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I'd also vote concordant opposition. Although it is only about a 4% proc rate, it is nice to get some SP back every once in a while. The extra hp procs are not that big of a deal unless you are using a lot of concordant opposition items at once (which according to the devs is not WAI and may be subject to a fix at a later date).

I think it is worth mentioning however that concordant opposition has a legacy effect on players who have been playing for years. There used to be a time when turtling up with a shield used to be a valid tactic to regenerate SP on tough elite quests with few shrines or epic quests back when the cap was 20. Many folks have fond memories of this time and thereby continue to swear by concordant opposition. Fact of the matter is situations where you now NEED to do so are so rare in the game now that they have added so many shrines and given casters so many SLAs that their SP expenditures are vastly reduced. So concordant opposition is simply a nice benefit now as opposed to a superior and practically must-have ability. You will not be able to turtle up like that in Epic Elite because the mobs hit so hard and Epic Hard is not challenging enough to warrant the need for the extra SP in the vast majority of cases. And I know you said you are only planning to TR again and not go into epics anytime soon, so I will also say that in heroic levels, with the current state of the game, the concordant opposition is practically never needed. I haven't had to turtle up in ages. Many good players are adept enough at avoiding being hit in the first place (jumping, kiting, etc.) and practice efficient SP use.

In summation, in my opinion, in the current game environment concordant opposition is a bit overrated, but still a fine option.

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Originally Posted by kendo

next time through, I will probably create a spell pt item but figured the HPs would be better. I have an ioun stone to help cover the SPs for now.

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Bear in mind you won't be able to equip two Green Steel accessories at once unless you have used an essence of cleansing on at least one of them. And the only way I am aware of to get an essence of cleansing is to get 20 Shroud completions. So unless you have a lot of raid timers stocked up to run 20 quick Shrouds before your next life, or you are planning to make your second GS item a weapon (in which case you don't need the essence of cleansing), or don't mind spending 60 days at epic levels while you rack up those Shroud completions before you TR again, you will not be able to equip that second Green Steel accessory.

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Originally Posted by EllisDee37

Now watch, the new xpack will introduce some unbelievably uber caster gloves just to mess up all our greensteel gloves, heh.

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Only if you're a Gnome. ;)

big thanks to everyone for the feedback, especially Sam.

little more background. I am looking for a change of pace from my melee druid, so going to work on my wizard a bit. will be TRing back into wizard, want at least 3 past lifes and then see where it goes from there. which is why I will probably TR shortly after hitting 20 on this second life.

will have to see how it works out for shroud runs. I saved a set of stones, so I can flag for it as soon as I get the quests and head over to Meridia. most groups will let an 18 or 19 tag along, so hoping I can get in several runs while finishing up that last few levels to 20. so second GS item would be nice but can live without it if it's taking to long to get the 20 runs in to get the cleanser.

you make a very good point Sam about the reduced "need" for con-op. I have played DDO from the beginning, so definitely remember the "turtle days" which is partly where my plan to create the con-op item comes from.

still see it as being a nice luxury item with the main benefit being the 45 HPs. would there be a second attribute besides con-op you would recommend to go with the HPs?

thanks again for all the thoughtful replies, all additional feedback welcome

Enervation I found weak as a proc.
got much more use out of con-opp in the heroic levels, really only drops off in Epics as mobs at the endgame hit too hard to benefit the con-op.


If you are planning TR lives.....

I would suck it up and run 20 shrouds on the current life before TRing,
(I would even consider using raid bypasses to get it done quicker.)
Once you start TRing, it is hard to commit to getting in shroud runs.

Build your HP item that you never take off..
(con-opp gloves in your case.. I went min2 for the heavy fort). (20 runs for cleansing stone and cleanse this one)

Then secondary SP item (I went with helm ).
This can be a swappable item that you equip at shrines..buff then swap to minos or whatever.. or leave equipped.
You can carry multiple secondary items .. swap in clickie and rinse repeat....more usefull for no caster lives where blur and haste clickies are desired...

Then craft a 3x healamp offhand item
(I went with a kama to not break stance when doing monk tr lives..equip when self scroll healing.. doubles as a rez clickie)

Get any other TR life usefull gear lined up

Now you are TR ready..

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Originally Posted by JOTMON

(con-opp gloves in your case.. I went min2 for the heavy fort). (20 runs for cleansing stone and cleanse this one)

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Strongly disagree, as I learned from experience.

Assuming your second GS item is a SP shrine swap (plus a raise dead 1/day clickie for good measure) that you just wear for buffing then swap to your normal gear, absolutely cleanse the shrine swap. The reason is because the shrine swap will never need to move because it's not normally worn. The always-worn item could conceivably need to move with the introduction of new uber gear in that slot.

If you have any plans for torc, necklace is the ideal place for your SP shrine swap item.

thank you Jotman

definitely some new things to think about with your post. I debated going with a HP + hvy fort gloves as con-opp is not quite as meaningful as it was. but if some of the changes being discussed recently regarding exceptional bonuses goes live, the con-opp has the advantage of providing skill bonuses to two stats instead of just one. maybe a minor thing but take all you can get :)

as to the discussion on which item to cleanse, I have been giving some thought to that as well and think it really depends on how many GS items you have and how you use them. if you are planning on carrying only 2 GS items, a temporary SP shrine swap and one other item, where the one other item could change depending on what class you were playing or other gear setups, then I would see cleansing the swap item

but if you have 3 or 4 swap items you use for various clickies or whatever, then you would want to cleanse the gloves (or whatever item is on all the time). otherwise, if the gloves were not the cleansed item, you would have to either cleanse all of the other swap items or remove the gloves to be able to equip the swap items.

so a lot to think about because right now, the idea of running enough shrouds to have even two items + possibly a weapon or two is way out there in the future. much less thinking about having 3 or 4 items to swap around a main item. though I hope to have that worry some day :)

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Originally Posted by kendo

but if you have 3 or 4 swap items you use for various clickies or whatever, then you would want to cleanse the gloves (or whatever item is on all the time). otherwise, if the gloves were not the cleansed item, you would have to either cleanse all of the other swap items or remove the gloves to be able to equip the swap items.

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This is a fair point. A workaround could be to just make your clickies gloves, but yeah, I see what you mean.

I prefer to cleanse the item I never take off making it easier to swap in uncleased items for clickies or situational use items.

For example... I do things like a cleansed HP belt and 4+ clickie/situational helms on every toon.
This allows me to swap it whichever uncleansed helm as needed.. (actual gear will vary, but scenario is the same ).
Even as new better gear may come out, I can allways go back and recraft shroud into different gear locations.

There is no downside to more shroud gear.

Shroud still has the best clickies and the most usable versitle gear/weapons in the game usable by every possible class.
I have not come across any player that can say shroud has nothing to offer.

I have yet to see anyone tell someone ...why are you still using shroud... or you have too many shroud items, you should get rid of those...

Shroud is the pack I recommend to any ftp player and is in my opinion the most run and most long term repeated of anything DDO has brought out.

If only the Dev's and loot designers would replicate this success into the upcoming loot... all the new stuff is soo sad looking.

The loot designer really need to come up with an evolution of gear that would make me consider trading in shroud gear, not work around it...

...until then... more shroud....

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Originally Posted by JOTMON

I prefer to cleanse the item I never take off making it easier to swap in uncleased items for clickies or situational use items.

For example... I do things like a cleansed HP belt and 4+ clickie/situational helms on every toon.
This allows me to swap it whichever uncleansed helm as needed.. (actual gear will vary, but scenario is the same ).
Even as new better gear may come out, I can allways go back and recraft shroud into different gear locations.

There is no downside to more shroud gear.

Shroud still has the best clickies and the most usable versitle gear/weapons in the game usable by every possible class.
I have not come across any player that can say shroud has nothing to offer.

I have yet to see anyone tell someone ...why are you still using shroud... or you have too many shroud items, you should get rid of those...

Shroud is the pack I recommend to any ftp player and is in my opinion the most run and most long term repeated of anything DDO has brought out.

If only the Dev's and loot designers would replicate this success into the upcoming loot... all the new stuff is soo sad looking.

The loot designer really need to come up with an evolution of gear that would make me consider trading in shroud gear, not work around it...

...until then... more shroud....

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Well said, +1

I didn't feel this question warranted a new thread but hopefully can get answered. I'm working on making my first Green Steel item now for my Wizard. By reading this thread, it seems the general thoughts are that a ConOpp glove with hit points are the best way to go? Are there many counter arguments for this?

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Originally Posted by Blaiseblah

I didn't feel this question warranted a new thread but hopefully can get answered. I'm working on making my first Green Steel item now for my Wizard. By reading this thread, it seems the general thoughts are that a ConOpp glove with hit points are the best way to go? Are there many counter arguments for this?

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Well, there's some named gloves in the xpack with +11 int and +5 illusion DC, so if you're illusion-specced (ha!) you'll want to keep gloves free. Otherwise there's not much of anything on gloves. Note that you can find high int lootgen, so you don't need those gloves just for int.

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Originally Posted by Blaiseblah

I didn't feel this question warranted a new thread but hopefully can get answered. I'm working on making my first Green Steel item now for my Wizard. By reading this thread, it seems the general thoughts are that a ConOpp glove with hit points are the best way to go? Are there many counter arguments for this?

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Not really a counter-argument, however, it depends on what you're looking to accomplish with your equipment setup. I went with con-opp bracers with the expectation of salvaging some SP in encounters. It doesn't proc enough to really make a difference. Maybe with a Torc it might be worth it, but alone they are fairly useless. They have given me some wiggle-room in rough encounters, but that is on rare occasion. It's better than nothing, but they certainly aren't worth relying upon.

A concop item is similar to that shrine-swap cove trinket that gives you +50 stacking spell points. A concop alone will essentially give you 50 extra spell points per shrine. This makes it a worthwhile investment.

A concop alone isn't going to work as a battery charger, but it will speed up the process if you have a torc as well.

Also, be careful of bracers. That's where I made my first greensteel concop hp item, cleansed it, and then later when I realized that I'm a pale master and bracers of the demon's consort are the clear best-in-slot bracers for PMs I actually deconned those cleansed bracers to salvage a few parts toward a new pair of gloves. That hurt. (But I lurve my new gloves. heh.)

Getting hit in Shadowfell EE content is something you want to avoid altogether. The days of using ConcOpp/Torc to get back to full mana from archers is a thing of the past. Before damage reduction, archers in EE Lines of Supply hit for 60.

If I was to remake Green Steel, I'd choose one of the following:
* Go for +6 INT skills for +6 Spellcraft.
* Heavy Fort (frees up a green/blue aug slot for something useful)