Does this tree work for artificers using repeaters?

Maybe a slightly odd question, but when I first looked at FotW I assumed it was a pure melee destiny, but then I noticed that AAs / Monkchers can get some nice burst damage from adrenaline.

So my question is, does adrenaline work with repeaters? If so, has anyone tried it, and is it effective?

I'm still not entirely clear how it works for Monkchers in all honesty, as the key ability seems to be fury eternal which allows you to refresh your adrenaline uses, but it states melee only per ddowiki. Am I missing something, or is DDOwiki wrong?

I'll probably get round to trying FotW at some point in the grind for fate points, but it'd be interesting to know if this is a potential burst dps ED tree for an artificer.

FotW was made to not work with ranged for a bit, then in (I think) u16 it was added back (it's in the release notes, but the descriptions for the abilities were never updated to show that they now work with ranged).

Assuming it works the same for repeaters as it does for bows, it'd be awesome, though slightly less so than it is for monkchers, as your damage isn't derived from strength (therefore, abilities such as primal scream won't increase your damage...however, things like adrenaline and sense weakness most likely will).

I'm torn a bit between shiradi and fury, in all honesty...fury is better as a burst, but shiradi seems better for longer fights where sustained damage is most important - especially with nerve venom (though pin, another ability for making enemies helpless, is a REALLY good twist).

Overall, I can't give direct experience with a repeater, but I can give ranged experience with FotW, and my response is to DEFINITELY try it out.

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Originally Posted by WruntJunior

Overall, I can't give direct experience with a repeater, but I can give ranged experience with FotW, and my response is to DEFINITELY try it out.

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How do you increase the number of times you can use adrenaline? Fury eternal seems to be on vorpal melee attacks only, or is this a display error and bows too get this? If ranged can't proc Fury eternal, is 7 uses of adrenaline sufficient?

Similarly, the epic moment talks about melee vorpals adding to the fury count, so how does a bow user make use of it?

*info taken from DDO wiki as I'm not currently logged into DDO.

Edit: also, I just got level 2 in shiradi, so I'll be able to try FotW soon, but am still a few hundred thousand xp away from doing so hence the questions.

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Originally Posted by Loriac

How do you increase the number of times you can use adrenaline? Fury eternal seems to be on vorpal melee attacks only, or is this a display error and bows too get this? If ranged can't proc Fury eternal, is 7 uses of adrenaline sufficient?

Similarly, the epic moment talks about melee vorpals adding to the fury count, so how does a bow user make use of it?

*info taken from DDO wiki as I'm not currently logged into DDO.

Edit: also, I just got level 2 in shiradi, so I'll be able to try FotW soon, but am still a few hundred thousand xp away from doing so hence the questions.

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That's all the same description bug.

I've started levelling up FotW, and its not too bad so far - boulder toss is great on an arti, and adrenaline really does pump up damage (although because I'm only at Level 3 in the ED, its not sustainable as such).

As I don't want to spend a small fortune respec'ing, can anyone say yes/no whether the following abilities work with ranged attacks:

i. tunnel vision
ii. sense weakness
iii. overwhelming force
iv. fury eternal (i.e. ranged vorpal replenishes 1 adrenaline use)
v. unbridled fury (specifically, do ranged vorpals count to build fury)

Based on the posts above, I assume that the answers are yes to at least iv. and v. I'd test them all myself if it wasn't for the ridiculous reset costs that now apply to the EDs.

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Originally Posted by Loriac

I've started levelling up FotW, and its not too bad so far - boulder toss is great on an arti, and adrenaline really does pump up damage (although because I'm only at Level 3 in the ED, its not sustainable as such).

As I don't want to spend a small fortune respec'ing, can anyone say yes/no whether the following abilities work with ranged attacks:

i. tunnel vision
ii. sense weakness
iii. overwhelming force
iv. fury eternal (i.e. ranged vorpal replenishes 1 adrenaline use)
v. unbridled fury (specifically, do ranged vorpals count to build fury)

Based on the posts above, I assume that the answers are yes to at least iv. and v. I'd test them all myself if it wasn't for the ridiculous reset costs that now apply to the EDs.

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i. not sure, but I think so
ii-v. yes

Edit: Just realized I posted something inaccurate here...haven't tried Overwhelming Force yet, but it should work (everything else in FotW that says melee only is a description error, it seems).

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Originally Posted by Loriac

..SNIP...
i. tunnel vision
ii. sense weakness
iii. overwhelming force
iv. fury eternal (i.e. ranged vorpal replenishes 1 adrenaline use)
v. unbridled fury (specifically, do ranged vorpals count to build fury)
...SNIP...

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As far as I know:

I-III: not working properly at the moment
IV-V: Yes

I've got a Repeater focused character that uses Fury of the Wild as her main ED, and it's great for burst DPS(I've gotten crits of between 500 - 900 damage on a bolt, with Adrenaline). And much like procs on a monk's handwraps I've seen Adrenaline "multi-proc" on a set of bolts, but it's rare and unpredictable.

I'll have to check the u16 Release Notes, I didn't know they changed a lot of the abilities to work with ranged. I'll also do some respec-ing to check if they actually work or not. Last I remember Sense Weakness wasn't adding the damage properly, hadn't tested the others.

Side note, Extra Action Boost from LD is an AWESOME Twist(8 Endless Fusillades instead of 5!). The Pin ability is another twist worth having. Still trying to play around with what other twists are going to be worth it(Reign, Critical Damage, Grim Precision, ect...).

Also have to agree with the above, Boulder Toss is great for an Arty. It is effected by force based Spell Power items/enhancements/potions. The build I use it on only has 6 Arty levels(up to 3 of the enhancements, 60 Spell Power I believe, and Toven's Hammer as my only caster equipment, 48 potency if I recall), but I get the ability to hit for 900-1500 and crit for 2000+.

***EDIT:
At a glance, looking at u15/1/2 and u16/1/1.1 release notes. Adrenaline was disabled for working with ranged in u15, then enabled again in u16. None of it mentions the other Fury of the Wild abilities effecting ranged combat.

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Just an opinion before I start the testing, having just looked over the other abilities again. Tunnel Vision, Sense Weakness, and Fury Eternal are the only ones that don't claim to work with ranged combat and should if they don't already do so(Fury Eternal does, extensive testing). Overwhelming Force shouldn't, it just doesn't make sense for that to work in ranged combat(unless you're a Barbarian AA with insane Str to Damage bonus...but even that's a stretch).

***Test Results:
Tunnel Vision: Not applying extra damage while under the effects of a House K Rage Potion. I did however gain the +3 Intim/Will Saves and loose 5 AC and 10% Fort.
Sense Weakness: Not applying extra damage to a mob as it's health goes down. Only helpless target I was able to test against was the Training Dummy(once killed and a helpless version spawned), no noticeable difference in weapon's base damage(other than what helpless does already, from previous experience).
Overwhelming Force: Does not apply a knock down effect to ranged attacks under Adrenaline.

I hope this helps.

I still think the Epic Destiny is really powerful for burst DPS, even though these abilities don't work for ranged(though Tunnel Vision and Sense Weakness should). Fast Healing is nice, the HP bump from Primal Scream is nice(and as an Arty you can bump it's damage through sonic enhancements, it's also a party buff), Boulder Toss is a great 1 shot ability with possible CC effect(damage increased by your kinetic enhancements, and it doesn't cost SP), and the PRR bonus from Damage Reduction is nice(every little bit counts). There are still many benefits to the ED for a ranged character.

This is how I normally have it set up.
Tier 1: Primal Scream(3 points), Boulder Toss(3 points), Fast Healing(3 points), +1 Con(2 points)
Tier 2: Damage Reduction(3 points), +1 Con(2 points)
Tier 3: None
Tier 4: Gird Against Demons(4 points)
Tier 5: Fury Eternal(2 points)
Tier 6: Unbridled Fury(2 points)

If they did end up changing however, I would sac Primal Scream and Boulder Toss for Acute Instincts(prerequisite for -->) and Sense Weakness(Helpless/Boss DPS).

My testing also indicates that overwhelming force, sense weakness, and tunnel vision don't work with ranged.

The adrenaline boost on xbow bolts is strange; usually you proc 1 bolt, sometimes 2, but I've never seen all 3 proc.

On balance, in its current state I don't think this is a great tree for artificers. The burst damage is definitely very good; hitting 7 adrenalines in a boss fight helps them go quicker, but ultimately we're talking maybe 500 per bolt (non-crit) which isn't competitive with shiradi.

However, when I TR my guy (probably into juggernaut), its going to be hard to choose between this tree and LD; for a melee, FotW looks excellent.

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Originally Posted by Loriac

My testing also indicates that overwhelming force, sense weakness, and tunnel vision don't work with ranged.

The adrenaline boost on xbow bolts is strange; usually you proc 1 bolt, sometimes 2, but I've never seen all 3 proc.

On balance, in its current state I don't think this is a great tree for artificers. The burst damage is definitely very good; hitting 7 adrenalines in a boss fight helps them go quicker, but ultimately we're talking maybe 500 per bolt (non-crit) which isn't competitive with shiradi.

However, when I TR my guy (probably into juggernaut), its going to be hard to choose between this tree and LD; for a melee, FotW looks excellent.

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I'm curious, why LD over FotW(for a repeater focused Arty?)? Extra Action Boost is nice for three extra Endless Fusillades, but that's all I could see using other than maybe Critical Damage. Haste Boost is a joke when it comes to repeaters, makes you reload faster...but that barely helps.

Another question if you don't mind. Why do you think Shiradi is superior to FotW for an Arty?

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Originally Posted by ormsbygore

I'm curious, why LD over FotW(for a repeater focused Arty?)? Extra Action Boost is nice for three extra Endless Fusillades, but that's all I could see using other than maybe Critical Damage. Haste Boost is a joke when it comes to repeaters, makes you reload faster...but that barely helps.

Another question if you don't mind. Why do you think Shiradi is superior to FotW for an Arty?

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The juggernaut is a melee build which uses artificer as the base class (its similar to the tukaw concept). http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=404822

LD was absolutely useless for me when I was levelling up in it as a ranged artificer, but obviously its one of the top melee EDs. My comments about FotW and LD are from a melee perspective, as I have decided that playing the max-DC caster game when Turbine keeps raising mob saves arbitrarily and assigning evasion to unlikely mobs (e.g. I have no idea how zombie mobs could possibly have evasion, but go figure...) is simply frustrating.

The problem that both Shiradi and FotW present for a max-DC casting/ranged artificer is that they don't allow you to boost Int. For my character its not too bad as I have 3x sorc PL, but even then I doubt that I'd get much to land in EE content with an Int around 44ish.

Shiradi at least offers cc through pin, otto's whistler, and nerve toxin. FotW in contrast offers nothing (I'd hoped overwhelming force would work, but it didn't). This is a big problem in content where your tactical detonation isn't reliable (more and more I find that tac det is the key arti spell rather than blade barrier, as it allows you to manage aggro in emergencies).

Damage wise, shiradi provides around 15-16 damage per shot plus double rainbow effects on top, which is around 30dps. You also get 25 spellpower, which boosts your runearm shots by around 120 per fully charged shot, or another 20dps. The double rainbow procs can be quite powerful; more than once I've laughed as an orange mob was hit with violet beam from prismatic spray - one memorable time was in an EH Trial by Fury where I killed Shufarix in the first volley of repeater fire - I actually had to go back and look at the combat log to work out what had happened lol.

FotW meanwhile with adrenaline gives you say 1200 damage per use at max level (this may be high tbh, but by the numbers +400% damage and autocrit of 2x should be giving you around 1000 per bolt assuming base damage around 100). Recharge rates on adrenaline by the numbers would be 60 shots fired = 1 recharge, or 2 per min (again, this seems higher than what I was actually getting). Sustainable damage is therefore 2400 per minute from adrenaline, or 40dps. Note that 40dps is almost certainly an overestimate, and quite broad-brush.

FotW pulls ahead I think if you need to dump out a lot of damage in under 2 mins; in that situation, you can use up all your adrenaline charges plus maybe 3 recharges duing the 2 mins, theoretically that'd be 100dps added. Theres also boulder toss which gives a decent 1500 non-crit damage per shot and even primal scream can be used offensively (my arti is 7/1/1 in lightning for toven's, so also gets around 600 damage to all mobs around me when I hit primal scream), but all in all you're trading a lot of survivability by going FotW. On the flipside, you have a much larger hp pool which does mitigate this.


Edit: however, to be very clear, if I had to pick a best destiny for artificer, it would be shadowdancer. Even with all the instakill abilities in that tree broken, it still offers more for the artificer than any other ED (which is very sad when you think about it).

My AA has Fast Healing instead of tunnel vision, and I'm rather tight on plat right now (regearing my sorc from being a wizard, and getting some gear for leveling my Juggernaut), so I can't test Overwhelming Force (which I originally had mistaken for Fury Eternal, which works fine >_>) or Tunnel Vision, as I could only afford to reset the tree once.

Sense Weakness seems to work somewhat for me: I could be mistaken, but I believe I'm getting the +30% damage, even though +1d8/1d12/1d20 procs don't seem to work (tested by taking 50 shots with sense weakness and 50 shots without, without no outside buffs, counting just the first number with Pinion, against a helpless training dummy)...I don't know how much further crits would skew it, but for some reason (with precision on) I didn't roll a single crit this time. From my results, without sense weakness I was averaging 80.74 damage a hit, with it I was at 91.82 damage a hit (a ~13.7% increase). Could use much more testing (I only did the 100 shots quickly, because I wanted to get back to Jugg levleing), but you should probably try it out with a crossbow.

My table for computing this is visible here.

As a side-note, I had to twist Pin into FotW on my AA to make it REALLY work for me.

Edit: Loriac, Master's Blitz made LD for me. LD will seem a little lackluster until you get there, but once you get it, you'll only probably want to swap to FotW when you can't maintain a blitz.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Loriac

The juggernaut is a melee build which uses artificer as the base class (its similar to the tukaw concept). http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=404822

LD was absolutely useless for me when I was levelling up in it as a ranged artificer, but obviously its one of the top melee EDs. My comments about FotW and LD are from a melee perspective, as I have decided that playing the max-DC caster game when Turbine keeps raising mob saves arbitrarily and assigning evasion to unlikely mobs (e.g. I have no idea how zombie mobs could possibly have evasion, but go figure...) is simply frustrating.

The problem that both Shiradi and FotW present for a max-DC casting/ranged artificer is that they don't allow you to boost Int....snip...

Shiradi at least offers cc through pin, otto's whistler, and nerve toxin. FotW in contrast offers nothing (I'd hoped overwhelming force would work, but it didn't)....snip...

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Yeah, I've seen the Juggernaut, it looks boss.

I haven't played a full artificer myself, but I can totally understand how it wouldn't be appealing to a caster/ranged spec. I will agree though Shiradi is a lot of fun(and I've actually run across the same exact situation, with that same mob, that violet ray is awesome).

Last I remember hearing about the zombie evasion, was when the Epic House D chain came out. Why do zombie pirates have evasion?(answer was it carried over from their previous life) But I totally understand and agree, too many different mobs have evasion.

As for cc, it's a bit of a joke on a ranged character, but Boulder Toss does have a knockdown effect based on a Str DC. It's rare but I've seen it work. Pin and Otto's are awesome, hadn't tried the Nerve Toxin. Was planning on possibly Twisting in Pin.

But my perspective on this matter is very skewed, as opposed to the OP's original question I guess. As I'm planning on using a 13 Rogue/7 Artificer. The character's current build is an abomination, but it still works, 12 Ranger/6 Arty/2 Rogue. Ranger for past life and DWS(which is nice, extended range on PBS and SA), 2 Rogue for early evasion, was too lazy to use a +1 lesser heart.

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Originally Posted by ormsbygore

Yeah, I've seen the Juggernaut, it looks boss.

I haven't played a full artificer myself, but I can totally understand how it wouldn't be appealing to a caster/ranged spec. I will agree though Shiradi is a lot of fun(and I've actually run across the same exact situation, with that same mob, that violet ray is awesome).

Last I remember hearing about the zombie evasion, was when the Epic House D chain came out. Why do zombie pirates have evasion?(answer was it carried over from their previous life) But I totally understand and agree, too many different mobs have evasion.

As for cc, it's a bit of a joke on a ranged character, but Boulder Toss does have a knockdown effect based on a Str DC. It's rare but I've seen it work. Pin and Otto's are awesome, hadn't tried the Nerve Toxin. Was planning on possibly Twisting in Pin.

But my perspective on this matter is very skewed, as opposed to the OP's original question I guess. As I'm planning on using a 13 Rogue/7 Artificer. The character's current build is an abomination, but it still works, 12 Ranger/6 Arty/2 Rogue. Ranger for past life and DWS(which is nice, extended range on PBS and SA), 2 Rogue for early evasion, was too lazy to use a +1 lesser heart.

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Nerve Toxin works very, very well - I highly recommend it.

My Boulder Toss never knocks down opponents, but it often crits for 3k damage - killing most mobs outright. And with a 15 second cool down, I use it between rune arm shots.