Stunned/Held monsters not really stunned?

Ok, I know people have posted about this already but it's making me really frustrated.

My barbarian throws stunning blow which happens to connect with target.

At the same time you hear the ding the creature attempts to move to another location and DOES! With the little whirly birds circling it's noggin too boot!.

Now, depending on the length of travel it has been programmed to use during a fight, I find myself chasing it for over half the time stun lasts before I can bang on it again.

The only hold type that seems to work for me is when my hammer turns them to stone. They stay put then.

Please in next update get this fixed--it's very annoying.

If it can't be fixed allow the players the same ability.

Even better, if a monster has started an attack/spell before you land the incapacitation it will continue and even kill you, then stand around with tweety birds over its head for a few seconds.

The lie people will tell you is that what happens on your client isn't indicative of what's happening on the server, yadda yadda yadda. This is obviously a lie because the problem doesn't happen when the incapacitation effect is specifically death.

It's frustrating, but it's been going on forever and is never going to change because Turbine doesn't care.

Cheers! :)

The other day, I was running the cannith challenges with those allied kobold npc's (they have a health bar and can get attacked, but are programmed to not fight) and an enemy came and cast a hold spell on one. Being a weak, stupid little kobold, it failed it's will saves for the full minute+ duration, but continued to keep collecting crystals with a hold animation on it. Pretty funny to watch.

Ooh, so there's a way it can benefit the players - NOW they'll fix it!

I've noticed the same thing myself. My monk will stun or jade a mob, and the mob either runs around like crazy or keeps casting or both. Was soloing Devil Assault, stunned a caster, watched his head droop and the swirly lights go around his head, and he still raised his arms - AFTER I stunned him - and cast Sleet Storm or something like it.

But since I really would like this to be fixed, I should note that every time this happens, I've noticed 100 Turbine points appear in my account balance...

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Originally Posted by Evennote

But since I really would like this to be fixed, I should note that every time this happens, I've noticed 100 Turbine points appear in my account balance...

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Half the time I cast a hold spell, the enemy still keeps sliding around in the pattern of someone's credit card number...

Here's a non technical explanation...

The client is behind what's happening on server. There's this thing called network latency. It introduces a lag between when something happens on server and you see it in your client. It's unavoidable without giving the server a time machine to go back in time and apply your stun.

What you are seeing in your client already happened at least half a second ago (possibly more than a second). When you stun something the client shows the stun graphic immediately, however stuff that has already happened is still being relayed to your client. That attack the monster hit you with "after" you stunned him, had already happened before you stunned him.

This is one of the issues with online gaming and is impossible to change without bending the laws of physics. You could have all the combat happen on the client and divorce the server from handling it. Unfortunately that would open DDO up to some serious issues with hacking and cheating. To keep things fair it must be done on the server.

Either it works this way, or you stun something and you have to wait for it to reach the server and send the info back before you see the graphic. This would be visually disturbing.

Either way people would complain. There is NO way around it. I am a network software engineer myself. I really don't care if you don't buy it. Not believing me or Turbine doesn't change the physics of how network traffic, communications buffers, and server command queuing works.

This is a turn based game. It has been built to appear to be "real time", in order to impart the feeling of a twitch game. If they applied the stun so it would be synced with the things that have already happened on server everyone would be complaining "Why do I stun something and not see it til a second later!?!?!?"

It's one of those things you just have to let go. Just let it go... The stun/hold is really being applied correctly. However the timeline of when you see it take effect is behind the "real" timeline of events.

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Originally Posted by hermespan

Here's a non technical explanation...

The client is behind what's happening on server. There's this thing called network latency. It introduces a lag between when something happens on server and you see it in your client. It's unavoidable without giving the server a time machine to go back in time and apply your stun.

What you are seeing in your client already happened at least half a second ago (possibly more than a second). When you stun something the client shows the stun graphic immediately, however stuff that has already happened is still being relayed to your client. That attack the monster hit you with "after" you stunned him, had already happened before you stunned him.

This is one of the issues with online gaming and is impossible to change without bending the laws of physics. You could have all the combat happen on the client and divorce the server from handling it. Unfortunately that would open DDO up to some serious issues with hacking and cheating. To keep things fair it must be done on the server.

Either it works this way, or you stun something and you have to wait for it to reach the server and send the info back before you see the graphic. This would be visually disturbing.

Either way people would complain. There is NO way around it. I am a network software engineer myself. I really don't care if you don't buy it. Not believing me or Turbine doesn't change the physics of how network traffic, communications buffers, and server command queuing works.

This is a turn based game. It has been built to appear to be "real time", in order to impart the feeling of a twitch game. If they applied the stun so it would be synced with the things that have already happened on server everyone would be complaining "Why do I stun something and not see it til a second later!?!?!?"

It's one of those things you just have to let go. Just let it go... The stun/hold is really being applied correctly. However the timeline of when you see it take effect is behind the "real" timeline of events.

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Talk about only looking at half the problem, and then totally removing control over that part. let me try to explain. For arguments sake I'll run with a 200ms latency
A casting animation takes a certain amount of time, for arguments sake lets say 500ms.
If I throw a stun before the casting animation then at worst case thats a 400ms round trip then the server should be aware of the stun. It isn't.
Certain NPC actions on the server cannot be interrupted.
Universal laws of physics have nothing to do with this, quality coding does.
The same way a trip/stun/hold happens and the mob flies around the map like a fly on heat. This is because the NPC has decided it wanted to move, and move it will, held/stunned means nothing, however network latency has nothing to do with it.

Also, a little clue. Buffs are sent, and activated on the server, then sent back, cast a heal or a haste etc and you'll soon see the terrible 'lag' you're saying no-one would accept for stuns.

Network latency exists (and it is a harsh mistress indeed), but that's only one part of the equation. There's a whole bunch of code/techniques/algorithms written to deal with that fact, and that's where you (meaning the devs) do have control and "can" make gameplay experience better.

It is a hard problem. I remember a dev saying as much so, but popping up and crying "network latency! nothin' we can do about it... deal." is wrong. It ignores things that could and should be done to fix things such as mobs sliding around the map.

I'm no techie, but blaming it all on network latency doesn't cover it. What about when my ranger hits a mob with her paralyzer - the mob's pose freezes, the swirly green lines appear, and yet AFTER THAT, the mob is still able to move and sometimes even cast/fire/hit. And if it does cast/fire/hit, sometimes that starts AFTER it's obviously paralyzed. Same thing with my monk stunning stuff, or my casters using Hold or Otto's. Running Servants the other night, a "stunned" caster actually fired off THREE spells after the stun "ding" and swirly stars showed up.

The problem with the animation is tricky, claims of fixes have been in various release notes and variants still happen.
e.g. at one time it was getting crazy with paralyzing weapons, then was fixed a bit but apparently not entirely.

One idea is to do the opposite and let them finish the attack before the stun kicks in.
That way we don't waste our time and actions.
Should be easier to code a catch-all like this than going after each hook in the code.

The network latency issue is a non issue I think, put it this way :

Take a monk, use touch of death (lol or whatever it's called), and a mob is insta-killed, use stunning blow, and it kites all over the place while 'stunned'.

If latency was the issue at the heat of this, then when you use your insta-kill the mob would still complete actions it "had already completed on the server", and would either be missed or die afterwards, this is not the case, if it lands the mob dies and that's that.

I've had stunned creatures move through dungeons, agro another group and then come to a halt in amongst the 'new' group of mobs.

We must find a way that this can benefit players so it gets fixed.

(much like when mobs have less than %1 of their HP left they suddenly become unhittable, miss miss miss miss miss, and they also happen to crit you on every hit at that same point).

I'm going to point out that I've held/stunned mobs, and then they hit me in melee, and trigger my damaging guard, which hits for +50% damage as they are helpless. That isn't network latency.

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Originally Posted by ZeebaNeighba

I'm going to point out that I've held/stunned mobs, and then they hit me in melee, and trigger my damaging guard, which hits for +50% damage as they are helpless. That isn't network latency.

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Means there's a delay in the stun. Your client show them stunned right away but it's only a visual, in the server their attack ran first and the stun comes afterwards.

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Originally Posted by hermespan

Here's a non technical explanation...

The client is behind what's happening on server. There's this thing called network latency. It introduces a lag between when something happens on server and you see it in your client. It's unavoidable without giving the server a time machine to go back in time and apply your stun.

What you are seeing in your client already happened at least half a second ago (possibly more than a second). When you stun something the client shows the stun graphic immediately, however stuff that has already happened is still being relayed to your client. That attack the monster hit you with "after" you stunned him, had already happened before you stunned him.

This is one of the issues with online gaming and is impossible to change without bending the laws of physics. You could have all the combat happen on the client and divorce the server from handling it. Unfortunately that would open DDO up to some serious issues with hacking and cheating. To keep things fair it must be done on the server.

Either it works this way, or you stun something and you have to wait for it to reach the server and send the info back before you see the graphic. This would be visually disturbing.

Either way people would complain. There is NO way around it. I am a network software engineer myself. I really don't care if you don't buy it. Not believing me or Turbine doesn't change the physics of how network traffic, communications buffers, and server command queuing works.

This is a turn based game. It has been built to appear to be "real time", in order to impart the feeling of a twitch game. If they applied the stun so it would be synced with the things that have already happened on server everyone would be complaining "Why do I stun something and not see it til a second later!?!?!?"

It's one of those things you just have to let go. Just let it go... The stun/hold is really being applied correctly. However the timeline of when you see it take effect is behind the "real" timeline of events.

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Why doesn't this ever happen when you kill a creature? How is it an unsolvable problem for stun, knockdown, dance, and hold, but works perfectly fine for death?

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Originally Posted by donfilibuster

Means there's a delay in the stun. Your client show them stunned right away but it's only a visual, in the server their attack ran first and the stun comes afterwards.

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No, it means it got an attack off while it was helpless, because otherwise it couldn't have taken extra damage from my guards.

I've snuck up on self-healing monsters (specifically, hobbie shamans in GH) on my ranger, hit them with dual paralyzers from behind.

Para procs. The whole time I'm hitting them, they're paralyzed. And yet... they're somehow healing. While paralyzed. Unless the melee hobbies around them are using Korthos Curative Cloaks, he's self-healing while paralyzed. That ain't lag or latency or anything like that.

Programming a monster artificial intelligence that is effective, efficient, and just in general good takes skilled programmers, resources, time, hard work, and dedication. But almost anyone can program the monsters to cheat: infinite mana pools, reduced cooldown timers, ignoring debilitating effects, etc.

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To keep things fair it must be done on the server.

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The irony...^^

This problem reduces utility of tactical feats and is impeding flawless tactical gameplay. I am at the point that I do not care why it happens, it generates an unpredictable variable while soloing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hermespan

Here's a non technical explanation...

The client is behind what's happening on server. There's this thing called network latency. It introduces a lag between when something happens on server and you see it in your client. It's unavoidable without giving the server a time machine to go back in time and apply your stun.

What you are seeing in your client already happened at least half a second ago (possibly more than a second). When you stun something the client shows the stun graphic immediately, however stuff that has already happened is still being relayed to your client. That attack the monster hit you with "after" you stunned him, had already happened before you stunned him.

This is one of the issues with online gaming and is impossible to change without bending the laws of physics. You could have all the combat happen on the client and divorce the server from handling it. Unfortunately that would open DDO up to some serious issues with hacking and cheating. To keep things fair it must be done on the server.

Either it works this way, or you stun something and you have to wait for it to reach the server and send the info back before you see the graphic. This would be visually disturbing.

Either way people would complain. There is NO way around it. I am a network software engineer myself. I really don't care if you don't buy it. Not believing me or Turbine doesn't change the physics of how network traffic, communications buffers, and server command queuing works.

This is a turn based game. It has been built to appear to be "real time", in order to impart the feeling of a twitch game. If they applied the stun so it would be synced with the things that have already happened on server everyone would be complaining "Why do I stun something and not see it til a second later!?!?!?"

It's one of those things you just have to let go. Just let it go... The stun/hold is really being applied correctly. However the timeline of when you see it take effect is behind the "real" timeline of events.

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All very technical and it's nice that you took the time to write this.

However...

It does not explain the following scenario:

First, cast Otto's Dancing Sphere in an area, then pull un-aggro'd monsters to the disco. They hit the sphere, start dancing, and then continue to move through the sphere until they exit it's area of effect, and then are released from the dance.

How does your fancy-shmancy latency explanation explain this?