Transform stacking hitpoints from gear to be based on class HDs.

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08-31-2012, 03:20 AM
janave

Transform stacking hitpoints from gear to be based on class HDs.
Problem:

Stacking Hitpoint sources apply to each character class equally, basically letting classes meant to be less survivable getting very close to dedicated tanky/survivable classes. Every class has other options for increasing survivability, stacking HP just creates weird unbalanced scenarios.

Examples:

A Sorcerer lvl12 = 16con = 84HP {toughness item } ~ 24% gain
A Fighter lvl12 = 16con = 156HP {toughness item } ~ 13% gain

One possible solution: Link stacking gear hitpoints to the hit dice.
- Toughness item = 2x HD = Fighter{20HP }, Sorc{8HP }, Barb {24HP }
- Lesser False life = .5x HD
- False Life = 1x HD
- Improved False Life = 2x HD
- Greater False Life = 3x HD
- GS T1 = 1x HD
- GS T2 = 1.5x HD
- GS T3 = 2x HD
- ...
Im not gonna be popular for this, but that never really bothered me :). And yes i play casters mostly, but its still weird to find myself on a human sorcerer being more beefy than the dwarf barbarian. Hitpoints really only helped me survive some nasty traps, monsters on any caster are trivial anyway
08-31-2012, 03:25 AM
sirgog

Suggestion as-is doesn't really work with multiclasses.

As well, the Defender PREs do scale up HP from gear - my Stalwart gets 54hp from his Mineral 2 HP belt whereas my Bard gets 45 from an identical helmet. (As well as that the Stalwart benefits from the AC on the belt too but that's another issue).

What does scale with HP is PRR, which we are starting to see on gear (witness the Cloak of the Bear). The more HP you have, the more HP a set amount of PRR is worth to you.
08-31-2012, 03:33 AM
janave

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirgog

Suggestion as-is doesn't really work with multiclasses.

As well, the Defender PREs do scale up HP from gear - my Stalwart gets 54hp from his Mineral 2 HP belt whereas my Bard gets 45 from an identical helmet. (As well as that the Stalwart benefits from the AC on the belt too but that's another issue).

What does scale with HP is PRR, which we are starting to see on gear (witness the Cloak of the Bear). The more HP you have, the more HP a set amount of PRR is worth to you.

Yes, multiclassing kinda borks my simple formula, however it could apply a more complex /class level formula -or- check for the highest level class in a multi-class setup. The PRR was a nice move, for many classes on lower levels its still really unnoticeable however, usually translates to 1-2DR. Somewhat better on crits but we strive to be immune to them asap with hforti.
08-31-2012, 04:01 AM
Angelus_dead

Quote:

Originally Posted by janave

Problem:
Stacking Hitpoint sources apply to each character class equally, basically letting classes meant to be less survivable getting very close to dedicated tanky/survivable classes.

That's an anti-problem: it is a good thing that factors exist which narrow the spread in hitpoints between different kinds of characters. Even with +hp items as equalizers, having high hp is still a bit more important than it should be.
08-31-2012, 11:00 AM
licho

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirgog

Suggestion as-is doesn't really work with multiclasses.

It may work, just need a little tweaks.
For example:

Base dice d6.
Every class with d6 gets 100% of the stacking health.
So wizzies gets 66% while barbs gets 200%.

If multiclassing final multiplier depends on class split.
So for example Rogue 10/ Barbarian 100 will receive 150% multiplier.
Or... Fighter 12/Barb 6/Rogue 2 will benefit from 170%.
Not so hard math i suppose. But may be hard to explain in tooltips. (still nobody said everything must be explained in details in tooltips)

IMHO its not a bad idea, to introduce something like that. Since now HP dice dosnt matter much, and as well it may be equal for all for no real difference.
08-31-2012, 11:12 AM
Shade

I like it.

Yea feels prety broken that I feel far more invulnerable and survivable on my 0 toughess, low con human sorc, then my 50+ con, epic toughness, multiple past life barbarian. The hp gap is a bit too small imo. That along with the unexplicable displacement nerf. Hell even my insano-HP build with 1600+ hp can at times die far more easily then my caster.

I thought id be having trouble with EE bosses in various quests. But turns out I was quite wrong.. I pretty much only die from trash that CC's me, not the toughest bosses.. as the game just doesnt seem to allow for good enough AI or movement speed to catch a caster kiting most bosses.

Really (that problem - kiting) is near unfixiable at this point too.. They simply kinda had that from day one as we could always run too fast and cast in mid air without penalty.. Its the game, and not something that should change.

I dunno, seems like they could at least make mobs a little faster and have more ways to stop casters tho. The hp thing would be a good start.
08-31-2012, 11:25 AM
Ape_Man

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shade

I like it.

Yea feels prety broken that I feel far more invulnerable and survivable on my 0 toughess, low con human sorc, then my 50+ con, epic toughness, multiple past life barbarian. The hp gap is a bit too small imo. That along with the unexplicable displacement nerf. Hell even my insano-HP build with 1600+ hp can at times die far more easily then my caster.

I thought id be having trouble with EE bosses in various quests. But turns out I was quite wrong.. I pretty much only die from trash that CC's me, not the toughest bosses.. as the game just doesnt seem to allow for good enough AI or movement speed to catch a caster kiting most bosses.

Really (that problem - kiting) is near unfixiable at this point too.. They simply kinda had that from day one as we could always run too fast and cast in mid air without penalty.. Its the game, and not something that should change.

I dunno, seems like they could at least make mobs a little faster and have more ways to stop casters tho. The hp thing would be a good start.

Even though the ease of casters getting gobs of HP is borderline game-breaking, mobile spell-casting shatters that border.
08-31-2012, 11:52 AM
SableShadow

Not a fan.

If you make the HP delta too big, you end up with content that either doesn't challenge characters on the high end of the HP scale or obliterates characters on the low end of the HP scale.

Find another way.
08-31-2012, 12:03 PM
bigolbear

Quote:

Originally Posted by janave

Yes, multiclassing kinda borks my simple formula, however it could apply a more complex /class level formula -or- check for the highest level class in a multi-class setup.

A better idea than that would be to check against the highest hit die class a multiclass char has irelevant of which class is the highest.

Its often the case that a 1 or 2 mele splash class is infact built to mele.

Althouhg I do recognise there is an issue - in that pureist casters have a lot of hp as they basicly only need 2 stats at char creation - ie casting stat and con, wheras meles need many others.

You know this discussion takes me back to 2nd ed.

A caster class there could only benefit from a con of 16 or lower, they could have a higher con but it did not effect hp.

A mele class could benefit from con all the way up to 25.

And importantly a mele/spellcaster multiclass or dual class could benefit from con up to 25 as well.

Have to say that in conclusion im not going to sign your thread, despite the fact i recognise an issue there. Im hoping the combat chanages and planned enhancement pass will sort this stuff out to some degree. Gear slotitng is also a major point - its no coincidence that the best body slot caster items are on the same slots that you typicaly get hp gear. belts helms and neclaces.