Please don't let anyone feel guilty while playing DDO

This thread is to focus on a raid flagging quest: Running with the Devils.

For those who are still unaware that you will perform unethical behaviors in this quest, here is a brief explanation of the quest:

At quest beginning, you will see a man dresses a robe of The Twelve. He tells you that one of his companion is imprisoned by Eladrins in this dungeon and he ask you to rescue his companion. Then he casts a strange aura on you and claims the aura will help you rescuing his companion. However, it is exactly the aura (evil aura) which make those GOOD-aligned Eladrins attack you when they sense the aura on you. You then have no choice but to kill lots of GOOD-aligned Eladrins in order to advance the quest. At the end, the man you rescue turns out to be a tiefling who disguises himself as one of The Twelve member.

So, the main problem of this quest is players have to kill many GOOD-aligned Eladrins to complete the quest. That's actually unacceptable to people who care about things they do are ethical or not.

If the plot of this quest remains unchanged, I certainly won't do it again after I TR because my conscience doesn't allow me to kill GOOD-aligned beings.

However, this quest is not a non-flagging quest like Purge the Heretics or Wrath of the Flame which we can choose not to do them. This quest is a raid flagging quest. If you don't do it, you can't do the raid.

Therefore, I suggest that the plot of this quest has some modifications. There can be an optional which let us use the Diplomacy skill to advance the quest without killing any Eladrin. Or even better, remove the must-kill-Eladrins plot so all player won't commit unethical behaviors, no matter aware or unaware.

morality in VIDEO GAMES?





http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/1233/1318291283579.png

I don't kill anything that doesn't attack me first, funny thing though they always attack me, my conscience is clear.

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Originally Posted by IanYang

So, the main problem of this quest is players have to kill many GOOD-aligned Eladrins to complete the quest. That's actually unacceptable to people who care about things they do are ethical or not.

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Let's use the concept that "killing" an extraplanar Outsider merely pushes her back to Irian or Xoriat or wherever they came from. It worked for Big Top and it can work here.

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Originally Posted by Battery

I don't kill anything that doesn't attack me first, funny thing though they always attack me, my conscience is clear.

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That's because they sense evil aura on players.

i always thought you were tricked into killing the good aligned characters.

in other words although you know you're being tricked, this isn't revealed to your characters until the end boss. truly roleplaying the scenario you can't bring outside information into the quest that your characters wouldn't know.

going into the quest you agree to the premise that you believe what the person at the beginning of the quest is saying. To say you know that you are being duped before hand is not roleplaying your characters or the quest.

As far as replay value is concerned you could imagine each time you enter a dungeon the parameters are reset for the roleplaying environment. Else why would you go back to a quest after you've killed everything. Respawns and rerunning quests don't roleplay very well.

gawd did i just spout off about roleplaying *cry*. nothing to see here move along

Now you could argue that you have true reincarnated and you have previous knowledge of the quest from your past life. To which i would tell you that if that is the case then you can't run any quest you've previously ran because according to your character everything is dead, the mission is done.

It all depends on how high you want to climb on your soap box. If you are truly serious i would suggest joining a permadeath guild as it would more aptly fit your playstyle.

"Good...bad. I'm the one with the Axe."

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Originally Posted by Angelus_dead

Let's use the concept that "killing" an extraplanar Outsider merely pushes her back to Irian or Xoriat or wherever they came from. It worked for Big Top and it can work here.

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2 thumbs up. There are plenty of other raid quests you can do Ianyang if this one offends your principles. Asking the Devs to completely rewrite a raid quest seems a bit extreme just because you don't agree with it. Hey, how about that, they could turn this quest into an evil only quest. Thanks for helping me find another reason. I appreciate it :)

/popcorn.

OP is a great source of lols if you don't take him seriously. Oh and /not signed.

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Originally Posted by camels

morality in VIDEO GAMES?





http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/1233/1318291283579.png

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Öööö... I had a friend who heard from his uncle that he has hear from and other loonie about morality even if video games.

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Originally Posted by Feylina

i always thought you were tricked into killing the good aligned characters.

in other words although you know you're being tricked, this isn't revealed to your characters until the end boss. truly roleplaying the scenario you can't bring outside information into the quest that your characters wouldn't know.

going into the quest you agree to the premise that you believe what the person at the beginning of the quest is saying. To say you know that you are being duped before hand is not roleplaying your characters or the quest.

As far as replay value is concerned you could imagine each time you enter a dungeon the parameters are reset for the roleplaying environment. Else why would you go back to a quest after you've killed everything. Respawns and rerunning quests don't roleplay very well.

gawd did i just spout off about roleplaying *cry*. nothing to see here move along

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Don't worry about it. i role play in my brain every single second I'm playing. Sometime I even role play out loud in the chat box. I like to use the archaic dialect, with all of it's thee's thou's and forasmuch's.

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Originally Posted by DrenglisEU

Öööö... I had a friend who heard from his uncle that he has hear from and other loonie about morality even if video games.

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worst sentence evar!

Again? Really?

Basically, you have no right to play any portion of this game if you truly believe the way you do as the whole game is essentially mass genocide, and a Sovereign Host of other atrocities.

Even your example of the Shroud is off. Did you not read the description of the Greensteel items? Taint of Evil. They are Evil weapons. So why do you even want to do the Shroud?

Also, you won't run this quest anymore....after you TR? First, why are you okay running it until you TR, but not after? Second, how can you be okay with the idea of killing yourself (TR)?

Get your religion out of my game.

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Originally Posted by Angelus_dead

Let's use the concept that "killing" an extraplanar Outsider merely pushes her back to Irian or Xoriat or wherever they came from. It worked for Big Top and it can work here.

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Even if that concept applies, you still hit them badly.

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Originally Posted by Feylina

i always thought you were tricked into killing the good aligned characters.

in other words although you know you're being tricked, this isn't revealed to your characters until the end boss. truly roleplaying the scenario you can't bring outside information into the quest that your characters wouldn't know.

going into the quest you agree to the premise that you believe what the person at the beginning of the quest is saying. To say you know that you are being duped before hand is not roleplaying your characters or the quest.

As far as replay value is concerned you could imagine each time you enter a dungeon the parameters are reset for the roleplaying environment. Else why would you go back to a quest after you've killed everything. Respawns and rerunning quests don't roleplay very well.

gawd did i just spout off about roleplaying *cry*. nothing to see here move along

Now you could argue that you have true reincarnated and you have previous knowledge of the quest from your past life. To which i would tell you that if that is the case then you can't run any quest you've previously ran because according to your character everything is dead, the mission is done.

It all depends on how high you want to climb on your soap box. If you are truly serious i would suggest joining a permadeath guild as it would more aptly fit your playstyle.

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But I do know what I will do when I am repeating this quest. I just can't pretend I don't know anything when I kill them.

Actually, the attempt at diplomacy is implied right after you meet the eladrin. "The Eladrin attack you, heedless of your protests!" So the situation presents a fairly simple set of options: Either die, run away, or fight to try and find out why these "Chaotic Good" outsiders are attacking you, as well as why they're holding a member of the Twelve prisoner.

You suggest an added diplomacy check. That misses the point. You're dealing with very powerful devils, with likewise very powerful magic. No amount of talking is going to make that aura of evil any less real, and to the eladrin that's clear as day. In effect, you have two "bad" options from the outset: Kill these "good" beings to rescue a man whom the devils plan to assassinate, and who may have the information you need to keep all of Ebberon safe, or leave him to die on account not wanting to kill any innocents in rescuing him, thus risking destruction across all of Ebberon.

It's not supposed to be an easy ethical situation. You are, after all, running with the devils. ;)

The plot of the quest is that the Eladrin see you as devils. Which is even more screwed up because they actually *are* being attacked by Devils (and are in a shoot first, ask later frame of mind).

It would be nice if some stealth techniques were rewarded in there by allowing PC’s to approach an important NPC and prove that they aren’t the enemy. Eladrin are high level casters. It’s not like they wouldn’t have access to Detect Evil, Zone of Truth or Trueseeing.

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Originally Posted by Wizzly_Bear

Even your example of the Shroud is off. Did you not read the description of the Greensteel items? Taint of Evil. They are Evil weapons. So why do you even want to do the Shroud?

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That will be the next thread I'm going to post.

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Originally Posted by Wizzly_Bear

Also, you won't run this quest anymore....after you TR? First, why are you okay running it until you TR, but not after? Second, how can you be okay with the idea of killing yourself (TR)?

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I had ran it and flagged for the raid. I don't need to run it anymore in this life.

And TR has nothing to do with commit suicide.

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Originally Posted by Wizzly_Bear

Get your religion out of my game.

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It's up to you to agree with the idea or not but you don't have the right to force anyone to stop making suggestion.

The quest is fine as is - no change needed. :)

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Originally Posted by IanYang

That will be the next thread I'm going to post.

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Oooooooooh look! Popcorn!

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Originally Posted by Memnir

The quest is fine as is - no change needed. :)
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http://i.imgur.com/ZQ4d4.gif
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Oooooooooh look! Popcorn!

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oh noes!

that was good popcorn!

I am never eating popcorn after I TR!

:)

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Originally Posted by IanYang

That will be the next thread I'm going to post.

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Or, if you find the game that others enjoy as-is so objectionable, you can drop the thought-police shtick, and either get along and enjoy the other quests, move along, or stop trying to set yourself up as the moral dictator of how the game should be designed and played by everyone else. It's getting old.