Is it possible to playa successfull wizard without ressorting to wall of flame ?

Hi,

I am currently playing a Rog/Wiz character (Rog2/Wiz18 is planned).

I really like the control creature spells but I wanted to know several things :

1- What kind of meta-magic feats are best for this build ? I though of the duration boost.
2- If I concentrate on protective/boost/summons and of course Charms and Hold spells will I still be a valid addition to a party ? Should I still take damage adding enhancement ? What enhancement should I concentrate on ?
3- Should I try to get Palemaster or can I forget about it ?

I am playing a Drow.

Player skill can make pretty much any build successful.

Not using Wall of Fire will make you less useful than you could have been in lots of quests, but this does not necessarily mean you won't be useful at all.

If you do want to do crowd control, heighten is an important metamagic feat, but one that probably won't be super useful in the beginning of your character's career. For other feats, the same goes for spell penetration and spell focus (in the appropriate school).

I don't see a lot of synergy between Pale Master and CC, although you can eventually get +2 Intelligence so there is a little. Summons are useful in significantly fewer situations than CC. You may find yourself stretched too thin to do all four of traps/locks (assuming this is the point of the rogue levels), CC, summon, and pale master. You may even find yourself stretched too thin to do three of them to your satisfaction.

CC wizards are very effective and very easy to set up at low/mid levels. Towards end-game you really have to focus for it (optimize spell pen and DC) but it is nothing unrealistic.

BUT, you sacrifice NOTHING, to be able to dish out mean firewalls. While you have all the mobs held/stunned/disabled, why not toss out some serious DPS over them?

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Originally Posted by Qzipoun

CC wizards are very effective and very easy to set up at low/mid levels. Towards end-game you really have to focus for it (optimize spell pen and DC) but it is nothing unrealistic.

BUT, you sacrifice NOTHING, to be able to dish out mean firewalls. While you have all the mobs held/stunned/disabled, why not toss out some serious DPS over them?

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this.

High DC's and spell pen = good CC, and those DPS people who live for big numbers like wailing on auto-crit helpless mobs. There are also those that refuse to fight anywhere near a firewall and essentially want you around as a buff / haste machine.

Splashing doesn't hurt CC like it does nuking, as you either save or you don't and not so much damage per caster level, so it's all about that casting stat + spell pen.

Summons - I've always been a fan of summons and pets in general, but I wouldn't do any real 'investing' in them per se. (i.e. I probably wouldn't burn a feat on augmented summoning etc if I was planning on grouping for raids mostly). On my solo guy, I think it helps a bit *shrug*

Firewall isn't 'required', but its kind of like the Kopesh Arcana. You tend to find yourself needed to produce a good reason for not using it.

I agree with the above. If you want to do crowd control over dps or summoning, then you really have to focus on it to make sure it stays effective. You need to take spell focus: enchantment and make sure you get spell pen and greater spell pen. The feats you take to get palemaster would take away from your ability to crowd control or slow it down as you wait for higher levels to take those feats. If it is crowd control you want to focus on you may also want to take mental toughness and improved mental toughness to get the extra spell points you might need between shrines.

Firewall is nice because you usually only need to cast that one spell per battle. Doing CC may require 2 or 3 spells per battle to slow the fight down. That means a lot more spell points used per battle. Wizards already need to conserve points so a cleric with divine vitality will be your best friend. I see alot more sorc going CC because they get a ton more SPs.

It is any toons choice on what to take for spells. It is just assumed every sorc/wiz will have firewall, displacement and haste so you may annoy some groups you join. If you are able to hold off monsters and mobs other ways and be effective while doing it then most groups will have no problem. Just stay focused on what you want to do.

Most wiz/rogues want to do a lot of soloing so palemaster is not uncommon to create your own little army. It will just mean any CC or dps won't be as effective but you are still very helpful to any party you join. Your skeletons and summons can help the cleric by adding fodder for the mobs to agro on which means less healing of vital party members. Party buffs don't need any feats so you are still very effective in that capacity as well.

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Originally Posted by Kinerd

I don't see a lot of synergy between Pale Master and CC, although you can eventually get +2 Intelligence so there is a little. Summons are useful in significantly fewer situations than CC. You may find yourself stretched too thin to do all four of traps/locks (assuming this is the point of the rogue levels), CC, summon, and pale master. You may even find yourself stretched too thin to do three of them to your satisfaction.

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I have to disagree.

Traps/locks are mainly a skillpoint/item investment. So long as you can switch inventory items, there are no problems to be had here.

CC is done in battle, along with damage. Sure, spending a feat boosting the DC will be stretch you thin, but the difference is small with or without it.

Sumoning is done pre battle. You wont see a bunch of monsters comming THEN summon; it has a long casting time and you dont gain anything by summoning mid fight. You summon as soon as reasonably possible and let them do their thing; not like you can micromanage their every action, so there is no point it sitting there and watching them take a single step forward, then attack, blah blah...

Pale mastering doesnt interfere with anything unless you needed the Enhancement points elsewhere. Wizards have more than enough feats to spend 2 for this, after all...and if you get 3 (Augment summons), your Charm CC will be more effective until endgame where charms are all blocked. Its a hell of a good ride until then though.

My Wiz/rog does favor buffs and then CC effects in general. Running thru gianthold (10wiz/2rog at this point), able to CC (Charm, Suggest, Dominate) a mob in each encounter which substantially turns the tides in most fights, plus gives my allies flanking and sneak attacks and more. In some fights more useful than a WoF would be, since now you have mob on mob aggro going on and none of the mobs are angry at you.

What takes practice and paying attention is CC'ing the right mobs in a cluster. For example, get that large giant in the middle of all the ogres and trolls. It gets and can withstand aggro longer than perhaps an enemy caster.

Now CC can also be something like Hold or Disco Balls too.

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Originally Posted by Doxmaster

I have to disagree.

Traps/locks are mainly a skillpoint/item investment. So long as you can switch inventory items, there are no problems to be had here.

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Mainly, yes. In the course of play, however, there will be traps/searches/locks that even with max gear and skills a character will be unable to get. This gap can be closed to some extent with wizard spells or by never going into a dungeon&difficulty above your character's level, but I find each of these options very constraining. Enhancements or (blech) feats on trapping are another set of options that are not super appetizing for a wizard, although the drow race/enhancements help on search/spot at least.

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CC is done in battle, along with damage. Sure, spending a feat boosting the DC will be stretch you thin, but the difference is small with or without it. ... Pale mastering doesnt interfere with anything unless you needed the Enhancement points elsewhere. Wizards have more than enough feats to spend 2 for this, after all...and if you get 3 (Augment summons), your Charm CC will be more effective until endgame where charms are all blocked. Its a hell of a good ride until then though.

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I was referring to the feats and enhancements, yes.

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Originally Posted by Kinerd

Mainly, yes. In the course of play, however, there will be traps/searches/locks that even with max gear and skills a character will be unable to get. This gap can be closed to some extent with wizard spells or by never going into a dungeon&difficulty above your character's level, but I find each of these options very constraining. Enhancements or (blech) feats on trapping are another set of options that are not super appetizing for a wizard, although the drow race/enhancements help on search/spot at least.I was referring to the feats and enhancements, yes.

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I dont understand what you are saying here.

With the possible exception of 1 or 2 traps (Gianthold one and maybe another) the DC's are nowhere close to what an at level character cannot hit without having max everything. Sure you may not succeed on a 1 everytime but the wiz/rog is mostly going to be a better DD, searcher than the usual rogue since; they have the same ranks, same gear, but the wiz will usually have a 4-16 pt higher Int than the rogue, depending on level. Even if the rogue takes enhancements they are still going to be behind.

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Originally Posted by Kinerd

Mainly, yes. In the course of play, however, there will be traps/searches/locks that even with max gear and skills a character will be unable to get.

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I disagree. 18w/2r is very versital and can easily handle traps. Even without any special raid gear you can get a 60 disarm. VOD traps on Hard can be disarmed on a 1 with 54 disarm (maybe even lower then that). I've done epic traps with 63 disarm and a roll of 6 succeeded. (only had a chance to try once)

There is something to be said for being able to disarm your own traps, unlock your own doors, sneak into a room full of creatures, charm a couple and while they fight each other drop a firewall and watch them all die. And to do it all solo if you want.

As far as augmented summoning, it's actually very useful at lower levels. But at higher levels summons/hirelings/chamed in general are less useful.

Heighten and extend are not that great at low levels, but are very useful/needed at higher levels.

There is synergy there, take augmented summoning early and then at higher levels, feat swap it out for heighten or extend.

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Originally Posted by Fomori

I dont understand what you are saying here.

With the possible exception of 1 or 2 traps (Gianthold one and maybe another) the DC's are nowhere close to what an at level character cannot hit without having max everything. Sure you may not succeed on a 1 everytime but the wiz/rog is mostly going to be a better DD, searcher than the usual rogue since; they have the same ranks, same gear, but the wiz will usually have a 4-16 pt higher Int than the rogue, depending on level. Even if the rogue takes enhancements they are still going to be behind.

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I added a highlight to point out the differences between what we said, but to reiterate it explicitly - I find doing things only at level to be extremely constraining. When someone says "let's do it again on hard", I like to be able to say "sure!". Also, for clarity's sake, search isn't a d20 skill. Like spot it's a flat check. Finally, I don't see why a wizard would have a 16 point higher Int than a rogue when a rogue has his or her trap gear on, could you elaborate?

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Originally Posted by Kinerd

Finally, I don't see why a wizard would have a 16 point higher Int than a rogue when a rogue has his or her trap gear on, could you elaborate?

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A rogue usually puts his stat increases into dex or str. A wizard will put his into Int. Other than that a wiz can slip on all the same gear for things like disable device that a rogue can. So a wiz can get his int based skills higher than a rogue at same level as long as he keeps up the enhancements and skill points.

A wiz will get 5 int on stat at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th level. Wiz can get 2 more from enhancements. Most wiz will start his Int at 18 or 20 depending on race while most rogues may start theres at 10-14ish depending on build. That alone will get you to about a 10-16 point dif in int for a 5-8 point difference in int based skills.

Yes.



Memorise it anyway.

not sure why but it reposted previous one just now???? So deleted it.

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Originally Posted by Kinerd

Mainly, yes. In the course of play, however, there will be traps/searches/locks that even with max gear and skills a character will be unable to get. This gap can be closed to some extent with wizard spells or by never going into a dungeon&difficulty above your character's level, but I find each of these options very constraining. Enhancements or (blech) feats on trapping are another set of options that are not super appetizing for a wizard, although the drow race/enhancements help on search/spot at least.I was referring to the feats and enhancements, yes.

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Could you name of few of these traps? I can't recall any...

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Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow

Yes.



Memorise it anyway.

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Couldn't say it any better. +1

like any class build, you should think about a 'major' and a 'minor' to take up your feats, enhancements, and crafting.
In your case, a double minor as you also went rogue.

Here is a way to think, a way to major in one discipline while not gimping on the others.


1) major - crowd control
needs: heighten, high spell penetration and DC
Extras/optionals: enlarge, extend feats
Enhancements: lower cost for heighten, extra spell pen
crafting: items that increase dc and spell pen


2) Minor 1 - Damage caster
Needs: Maximize feat, heighten
Extras/optionals: empower, extend, enlarge
enhancements: select a damage type fire/cold, acid/elec, etc...and get as much as you can with it.
Crafting: items that increase damage crit, crit chance, overall damage

Spell pen, heighten, and extend will work on tons of spells and well worth it. Max for sure is one you need, emp would not be so bad either.


3) minor in rogue
Needs: proper skill/ranks, good dex/reflex save
Extras: not many to choose
Enhancements: reflex save, search/disable/locks if you can.
Crafting/items: anything to help with your rogue skills and reflex saves.



you can see it is entirely possible to get a good DC for all spells, including damage spells, while carrying the boom of a damage caster (though not quite as good).



Fact is, as was stated, it depends on how good you are with the game and how good/bad the party is.



For raiding...

DQ- fire works well, but that high spell penetration you have can land those waves of exhaustion on one shot.
Most other raids it is about controlling, killing, or other things without the use of firewall... flesh to stone, wail banshee, etc... So you will do well at end game to have a good DC and spell pen.

Non raids control works in many. Amrath is awesome example of a control mages dream (and having been in a party with a good one was awesome out there).


Ditto for going the other way...you can go ALL damage all the way....but grab heighten and get feats/items that drive up spell pen and DC and you will be fine either way.

do not ignore one for the other.... web, cloudkill, and wail is what I see works in VoD a lot, never seen a firewall do much in there....


be diverse.

Thanks for all the comments :)

I think I will concentrate on crowd control/charms, with a bit of summon and all maxed rogue skill (disarm and open).

What I am wondering is about enhancement and feats. It's hard to choose wich ones to use. Being 1 or 2 level under my nominal because of the rogues level I wont hurt that much.

Perhaps take a bit of enhancement into frost/fire because of the extra sensibility of some critter that can justify throwing thoses DD even if not specialised.

About the feat I think the only one that really justify the extra spellpoint cost is the one that add to the duration (extend spell), I fail to understand what the Heighten spell do and thus how it is efficient... Can someone explain it to me ?

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Originally Posted by IKerensky

About the feat I think the only one that really justify the extra spellpoint cost is the one that add to the duration (extend spell), I fail to understand what the Heighten spell do and thus how it is efficient... Can someone explain it to me ?

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when you cast that spell like charm, the 'DC' roll is based on the level of the spell..

so let's say you cast the 1st level spell charm person...it is treated as a level 1 spell, even if you are 20th level and can cast 9th level spells.

HOWEVER....with heighten, that spell is now treated as a 9th level spell for the purposes of resisting it via a save...(basically +8 to your DC)

this is most desired for a caster in your position....when I played a caster I never took heighten off, it was always on...forever on.