is Combat expertise worth it for a TWF?

I am a level 20 twf with power attack and all the haste boost. 99% of the time I am DPS.

Last night on a quest I needed to turtle up and take a beating. With a shield, CE turned on and all the buffs a party could provide I had an AC of 55 or 56. I still took a ton of damage and died, but hung long enough to complete the objective and kill the monster (thanks to a hard working cleric).

With a few more end game quest pieces I think I could get my ac up to about 60 maybe a few points more.

so is CE worth it for me or would I be better off lower my int a few points and putting those into wis or something?

Unless you can get an AC of at least 65, I would not put those 3 points into INT. If both CE and PA could be on at the same time, by response would be different, but because they can't, you'll only end up using CE on raid bosses, where your AC will probably too low anyways.

CE is, on the other hand, useful for qualifying for improved trip, so you can take that if you want for those 2 relatively useful feats. If you're STR is already 18, then get 11 INT, if not, put it into STR.

well right now i CAN GET MY ac into the mid 50s, almost 60 with a shield and CE turned. If I understand you correctly, I should not bother with CE and instead use the points for str and a different feat. Correct?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bolo_Grubb

well right now i CAN GET MY ac into the mid 50s, almost 60 with a shield and CE turned. If I understand you correctly, I should not bother with CE and instead use the points for str and a different feat. Correct?

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unless you want to take improved trip, which is a really neat feat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bolo_Grubb

well right now i CAN GET MY ac into the mid 50s, almost 60 with a shield and CE turned. If I understand you correctly, I should not bother with CE and instead use the points for str and a different feat. Correct?

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You can easily end game with a low 70s AC while going kensai. The stalwart defender will add 7 to your AC when in stance with shield, another 3 extra for blocking...so you would be 10 below a defender who should be able to get low 80s raid buffed.

10 base
5 protection item
15 dragon touch armor
4 insight DT armor
5 barskin (ranger)
2 chaos bracers
3 chattering ring (heavy grind, rare)
9 tower shield (leviks from hound gives good DR)
2 alchemical rituals for armor and shield
5 combat expertise (feat)
1 dodge (feat)
5 max dex bonus (with enhancement help)..maybe 1 or 2 more depending
---------------------------
66

5 pally aura
4 bard song
2 recitation
2 shield block
1 haste
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70 AC blocking with shield. You should have 15 to 25 DR too.

5 armor boost (short term)
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75 AC


All this requires is a 13 intel and two feats. The intel will help you get more skill points too. You can start with 11 intel and go for +2 tome, or 10 if you have a +3 standing by. As a fighter, two feats is not a big loss for a 70+AC at times when needed.

This is all while being a kensai and balls to the wall fighting....
I am not familiar with all the kensai equipment sets or all enhancement bonuses that might add to AC on top of this.

Without a shield, with boost and shield spell (scroll) on, you can be buffed to 67 for two weapon fighting which should help out in many situations indeed.

I think it is possible to make a DPS build with a decent AC as most of it is gear. At 75 you could definitely be backup intim tank if need be on norm raids and almost all non raid dungeons.

well my current build certainly has flaws, it was my first build.

my play style is definitely more DPS, I plan on using greater reincarnate once it is in the game. check this post for 2 ideas I have for the build
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=226682

as for gear, I will try to post that later, I am working on improving the gear.

Personally I only take CE to get access to Improved Trip, which is incredibly useful throughout the game, including end game. You don't need AC if the mob you're fighting is laying on their back.

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Originally Posted by Vengenance

Personally I only take CE to get access to Improved Trip, which is incredibly useful throughout the game, including end game. You don't need AC if the mob you're fighting is laying on their back.

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a big reason I ask is the points spent in Int to get CE are points that I could spend into STR to help get it to 18.

I could go
STR 18
DEX 15
CON 15
INT 8
WIS 8
CHA 8

or
STR 16
DEX 15
CON 16
INT 12
WIS 8
CHA 8

Either way I have a +2 tome to everything to use.

Another big advantage to going for CE is the extra skill points you get for having a high INT, but I would have to go lower in another key stat.

i see it the same way as Vengeance, i only get CE to get imp trip. i learned to love that feat on my 2hf fighter. when you can dump dex (which you can as 2hf) there are more than enough points available to get to 12 int (and add a +1 tome). so i just took the feat and really liked it.
but it seems you want to go for 2wf, which means you need dex. on my 2wf build i wanted max str and still take imp trip, so i sacrificed some constitution (and will take one additional toughness to make up for it). so i started with 18/15/12/12/8/8 using a +1 int tome and a +2 dex tome.

in fact you value 1 base damage and 1 hit against 40 hitpoints and 2 fort save. i personally took the damage (and as i said i will use a feat to gain 23 hitpoints)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bolo_Grubb

a big reason I ask is the points spent in Int to get CE are points that I could spend into STR to help get it to 18.

I could go
STR 18
DEX 15
CON 15
INT 8
WIS 8
CHA 8

or
STR 16
DEX 15
CON 16
INT 12
WIS 8
CHA 8

Either way I have a +2 tome to everything to use.

Another big advantage to going for CE is the extra skill points you get for having a high INT, but I would have to go lower in another key stat.

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I'm pretty sure my starting stats were (32 pt build):

Str 18

Dex 15

Con 15

Int 11

Wis 8

Cha 6

I definately started at an 18 Str to maximize DC of Stunning Blow and Improved Trip. TWF is superior to THF when it comes to tactics since your target has to make 2 saves for stunning blow or improved trip at later levels. With DCs of over 40 for each, this pretty much gives you a no-fail stunning blow or trip on all monsters that can be stunned or tripped.