Wake Up Stormreach!!!

The (obvious) recent population decline on DDO servers is inevitable until 1) DDO changes the way the game interacts with people, and 2) people change the way they interact with each other.

The way I see it with DDO the problems are many simple ones in nature, but hard to repair unless we focus on them each one separately.

Ill list a few of the problems I have with the game, and feel that many others may have as well. I do this in the hopes that it will spark a debate, and fire up some people to DO SOMETHING about it.

1) Everything is static and instanced. I don’t know about you, but I get tired of running WW or STK or Deleras or <insert dungeon here> over and over and over. Maybe I'm to picky, maybe I'm spoiled by other MMOs that are open, free and dynamically engaging, but to my way of thinking there’s no spontaneity in this game... you know where every single thing in every single dungeon is once you’ve done it enough... sure there may be a boss in a specific place that changes, or a NPC may move around, but it never REALLY changes. There is no dynamic to the game at all, what I do has no effect on anyone but me and the group I'm with

2) Everyone in DDO is like a person unto himself or herself. The game is less of an MMO and more of a single player game that many people participate in. No one ever talks in general channel if you’re not in a group, or have friends your left to your own devices. That is fine, at lower levels, but as you gain in skills, you start to get into dungeons where your MUST have a group to advance.

3) Many of the players of DDO are hardcore, aggressive players who have (surprise!) done the same dungeons over and over and over ... they anticipate new group members having the same level of experience as they themselves do. And have little patience with actual NEW players. (How many of you have been left in the dust of an unfamiliar dungeon by a "pickup" group, and then been derided for your lack of skills or experience? I don’t know about you, but it leaves a pretty sour taste for the game on new players (me having been one) and does not make one want to continue.

NEW PLAYERS ARE THE LIFEBLOOD OF THE GAME! If we ignore them, or deride them, or belittle them, there will be no one left but a few withered old gaffers talking about the way things "used to be” right before the last bitter sunset of the game.

I am not even started in my critique, but I hope I get SOMEONE to talk about this. Only we can fix it... and only through changing our own behaviors, and forcing DDO to change the way they themselves operate the game.

DEMAND CHANGE!! CREATE CHANGE!! Or lose what we love.

The choice is ours.

1) I disagree. It is not a flaw, it is a feature. The big open areas you like from other games were specifically omitted because they are not fun. They are a timesink and DDO made an attempt to eliminate as many timesinks as possible. They are also an open invitation to griefing. Many players applaud this decision and consider such wide open areas to be flawed game design. And as far as repeating those specific quests over and over, the answer is simple: don't. There are plenty of quests to choose from, especially when factoring in Hard/Elite.

2) LFG or LFM. DDO has one of the best grouping interfaces in the business.

3) I agree with this to an extent. But the playstyle you describe exists in all MMOs. It is, unfortunately, part of their very nature. New players who are so deterred by this that they don't wind up forming a friends list or guild to avoid it will simply bounce from MMO to MMO for awhile, realize this, and then either pick one or decide MMOs are not their cup of tea after all.

I would also like to add that the server merge has already helped improve the DDO experience for new players immensely.

DDO has the one thing I feel other MMO's don't. And it's utterly priceless.

Action.

Dirty, raw, manual, funny, exciting Action.

And to boot, it comes packaged with interesting challenge. As opposed to repetitive, disney-like, collect 10 Bear Butts FedEx romps.

I'll take my cup of DDO, thank you.

I completely understand that people get bored running the same quest over and over, but the idea that this can be fixed by creating open areas where you just do the same thing over and over seems like a step backwards if that is the problem you are trying to address.

if you do not want to zerg, you might not want to run with me, it is ok, my feelings will not be hurt

i am not going to run ww slow when i have done it 100 times

however, when the party wipes because of noobs, i will release and come back in to help the group as long as they are trying and have good attitudes

i remember what it was like my first few times in ww

my first time, the leader was a non-zerger so it went slow

after that, it was a complete zerg-fest because of the pace set by the leader

the point is that you should set up a "non-zerging" group in the lfm & give your group a tour of ww and other quests

most vets are going to move fast, we are twinked and have done the quest countless times

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Originally Posted by Knightrose

DDO has the one thing I feel other MMO's don't. And it's utterly priceless.

Action.

Dirty, raw, manual, funny, exciting Action.

And to boot, it comes packaged with interesting challenge. As opposed to repetitive, disney-like, collect 10 Bear Butts FedEx romps.

I'll take my cup of DDO, thank you.

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Bear butts? WoW! There is no EQual! ;)

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Originally Posted by lord_painne

The (obvious) recent population decline on DDO servers is inevitable until 1) DDO changes the way the game interacts with people, and 2) people change the way they interact with each other.

The way I see it with DDO the problems are many simple ones in nature, but hard to repair unless we focus on them each one separately.

Ill list a few of the problems I have with the game, and feel that many others may have as well. I do this in the hopes that it will spark a debate, and fire up some people to DO SOMETHING about it.

1) Everything is static and instanced. I don’t know about you, but I get tired of running WW or STK or Deleras or <insert dungeon here> over and over and over. Maybe I'm to picky, maybe I'm spoiled by other MMOs that are open, free and dynamically engaging, but to my way of thinking there’s no spontaneity in this game... you know where every single thing in every single dungeon is once you’ve done it enough... sure there may be a boss in a specific place that changes, or a NPC may move around, but it never REALLY changes. There is no dynamic to the game at all, what I do has no effect on anyone but me and the group I'm with

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I agree that there needs to be randomality in DDO (and there is in later mods, to a small degree), but allowing the players to add the randomality is not a good decision, see all other MMOs griefing threads.

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Originally Posted by lord_painne

2) Everyone in DDO is like a person unto himself or herself. The game is less of an MMO and more of a single player game that many people participate in. No one ever talks in general channel if you’re not in a group, or have friends your left to your own devices. That is fine, at lower levels, but as you gain in skills, you start to get into dungeons where your MUST have a group to advance.

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I can't agree with you here. DDO is a social game, and you wont realize it until you have peeved everyone in your server off, and no one will group with you anymore. Get into a group, chat away, add friends to your friends list, keep in touch, and you will be fine. No one is going to run up to you, and start meaningful conversations if you don't start by saying "hi". it doesn't work like that in real life, why should it here?
I played VG for a short while, and I hated all of the chatter in the general chat. Why can I hear people I can't even see? Why must I hear a thousand people asking "..need a healer for X quest..." or "Frank, where are you?" no thanks.

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Originally Posted by lord_painne

3) Many of the players of DDO are hardcore, aggressive players who have (surprise!) done the same dungeons over and over and over ... they anticipate new group members having the same level of experience as they themselves do. And have little patience with actual NEW players. (How many of you have been left in the dust of an unfamiliar dungeon by a "pickup" group, and then been derided for your lack of skills or experience? I don’t know about you, but it leaves a pretty sour taste for the game on new players (me having been one) and does not make one want to continue.

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It's amazing what a small amount of humility, and being upfront to your fellow party members will do. If you are in an adventure you have never been in, don't hide it, actually tell them you are new to the adventure, and might need some help. You will find that the DOD populace is more than willing to help guide you. If you run into people that aren't team members, then tell them "sorry but I can't keep up with you guys, i'll leave so you can find someone who can keep up with you" and leave. I bet they will either slow down, or at least re-evaluate what they are doing.

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Originally Posted by lord_painne

NEW PLAYERS ARE THE LIFEBLOOD OF THE GAME! If we ignore them, or deride them, or belittle them, there will be no one left but a few withered old gaffers talking about the way things "used to be” right before the last bitter sunset of the game.

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can't agree more. New players are coming into this MMO all of the time, but with the wrong attitude, or expectations. they assume that no one will help them, or will make fun of them if they show any lack of game knowledge. NOT TRUE. I keep lowbies and do low-level quests just for new players, and I set them straight, letting them know that this is a co-op game, asking questions is fine, and generosity will return to them ten-fold, in the way of friends, grouping, and loot in return. I'm sorry you never ran into someone like this when you first played.

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Originally Posted by lord_painne

I am not even started in my critique, but I hope I get SOMEONE to talk about this. Only we can fix it... and only through changing our own behaviors, and forcing DDO to change the way they themselves operate the game.

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DDO is a work in progress, it didnt have the time and the manpower behind it, that other MMOs have had. DDO is a niche MMO, it's not supposed to appeal to the lowest common denominator, Turbine has another game that does that. DDO is for those who like to play an online version of D&D.

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Originally Posted by lord_painne

DEMAND CHANGE!! CREATE CHANGE!! Or lose what we love.

The choice is ours.

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Agreed, but look at it from all sides first.

Sincerely,

It's all on individual perception.

Glass half empty or half full personality.


Personally for me the glass is overflowing with Hefenwiezen. =)

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Originally Posted by The Silver Griffon

1) I disagree. It is not a flaw, it is a feature. The big open areas you like from other games were specifically omitted because they are not fun. They are a timesink and DDO made an attempt to eliminate as many timesinks as possible. They are also an open invitation to griefing. Many players applaud this decision and consider such wide open areas to be flawed game design. And as far as repeating those specific quests over and over, the answer is simple: don't. There are plenty of quests to choose from, especially when factoring in Hard/Elite.

2) LFG or LFM. DDO has one of the best grouping interfaces in the business.

3) I agree with this to an extent. But the playstyle you describe exists in all MMOs. It is, unfortunately, part of their very nature. New players who are so deterred by this that they don't wind up forming a friends list or guild to avoid it will simply bounce from MMO to MMO for awhile, realize this, and then either pick one or decide MMOs are not their cup of tea after all.

I would also like to add that the server merge has already helped improve the DDO experience for new players immensely.

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/agree - Well said.

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Originally Posted by DDO_Ironwolf

It's all on individual perception.

Glass half empty or half full personality.


Personally for me the glass is overflowing with Hefenwiezen. =)

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I LOVE Hefenwiezen!

yum yum

:D

Sorry but DDO has done us all a favor. Nobody wants to sit and camp a specific area or wait/try for hours on end for a chance that some high-end boss MIGHT spawn. Personally, I hate this style of MMORPG's.

I'm not sure what the point of the OP's item #2 is supposed to be. If it's the fact that nobody talks in general chat, it's probably because most players are busy enough grouping and running around. If you're looking to sit around and socialize, I would suggest joining a guild or getting your real-life friends to play as well or regularly group up with another player.

Hardcore players treat every minute of gaming time as precious minutes of xp/loot. Not everybody is like that. I am guilty of running a raid and expecting everyone to be familiar with it. BUT I ask if anyone in the group has not run it before and explain the plan. Sure a newbie can quickly feel outclassed as the rest of his group tears through a quest non-stop with unyielding expertise. People like the OP put the entire blame on the experienced players for zerg'ing through a quest. It's the newbie's responsiblity as well to pipe up and say "I haven't run this before." Most players won't mind explaining what's going to happen. The biggest problem I have found is that a few new players are sometimes playing on a dial-up connection or playing without speakers or a microphone. When a quest would normally take 30mins to run, should we stop every 2minutes and type a paragraph of the upcoming battle which would turn the quest into a 1hr grind. To reiterate, the newbie needs to speak up and let us know if they're new to the game, if they don't have speakers or a microphone or if they have lag issues. Let us know and most of us are glad to help.

1) Everything is instanced and static (mostly). Kind of sucks, but that's the breaks. The same thing would happen if you played DnD and ran the same module over and over. That's what happens when you get a specially crafted dungeon with a mood and feel of its own instead of a generic give-them-something-random quest (Though I wouldn't be too upset if there was randomization in placement in the open environments at least, or monsters wandered around). Wide open areas are time-sinks. You spend a little bit of time fighting things in there, and afterwards you spend a lot of time traveling through there avoiding things, and eventually get to the point where you just ignore them and just run through to get to where you're really going.

DDO does have the fact that you can get in, play some quests, and then go without feeling like you didn't accomplish anything. Since you don't have to wait 30 minutes for everyone to gather to the quest start, you can spend that time questing. Normally, if there isn't anything going on, I can play something else. It is like a single player game in that respect. I don't feel the need to waste time in the game doing trivial things, though to say something about point 2, I've spent a couple hours doing nothing but jumping around the Marketplace because I've been talking to someone, so it can still be rather social if you talk to other people. If they don't make initial contact, then it's up to you to start it, but most people will at least talk back to you if you say something to them other than "Where are we going?" or "What quest are we doing?"

3) Many of the players are not hardcore players that have done a quest only a few times or not at all. Normally, if you say you haven't done a quest before or have just started playing, people will adjust their zerging to fit. Yeah, there are still people that won't change, but many people will slow down if someone wants to experience a quest for the first time, and some people will even explain it for you (though some people will be more than happy to let a newbie lead the way just so it seems surprising to them).

I agree with #3 but I disagree with pt 1 and 2 and I won't dwell on 1 and 2 for the sake of pt#3, coz that is really what makes those interested in this game actually stick around imo. Fact is this game is a group based game, quests are developed to incorporate group tactics. Sad part is you have so much of the population who have run quests and finally 'learn' how to run them efficiently. Then it becomes second nature and after repetition, it becomes a joke.

Unfortuantely many people can't think back to when they first started playing this game and realize there is a curve based on gameplay. Zergs are just morons IMO coz they can't wait around, they just have to finish the quest...well then group with Zergs then, and anyone who has played with me knows I am vocal in my group as to when someone is being an idiot. It solely lies on the group to make others proficient and up to par to their gameplay, and that requires conversation and questioning, and because there are so many people who don't bother with explaining things to people then they are left high and dry in knowing what really is going on, or how to better their gameplay and character, and for that matter, use their character to their upmost abilities.

I tell people in my group what is going on, I try to help them to learn how to make a quest easy, and I try to help out with questions when asked. Alot of people in this game maybe need to think about helping others instead of helping themselves or even only helping their 'select' few friends. Be more considerant to others in your group and you will find that some new people may stick around a bit more if they are helped along the way.

As for the people who have no regards for others, go isolate yourself to those people you normally play with, coz maybe the new people coming on might enjoy the game more with people who remember how it was when they first started.

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Originally Posted by lord_painne

1) Everything is static and instanced.
Take away the instancing and many people will leave the game. It is one thing that sets DDO apart from the others. You can join up with friends tackle something together, much like you would add the PnP table, at your own pace.

2) Everyone in DDO is like a person unto himself or herself. The game is less of an MMO and more of a single player game that many people participate in. No one ever talks in general channel if you’re not in a group, or have friends your left to your own devices. That is fine, at lower levels, but as you gain in skills, you start to get into dungeons where your MUST have a group to advance.
DDO has one of the best grouping interfaces out there. One of their slogans early on was 'Friends Don't Let Friends Solo' or something like that. Yes, it is a grouping game.



3) Many of the players of DDO are hardcore, aggressive players who have (surprise!) done the same dungeons over and over and over ... they anticipate new group members having the same level of experience as they themselves do. And have little patience with actual NEW players. (How many of you have been left in the dust of an unfamiliar dungeon by a "pickup" group, and then been derided for your lack of skills or experience? I don’t know about you, but it leaves a pretty sour taste for the game on new players (me having been one) and does not make one want to continue.
You'd be surprised how many l33t uber hardcore players will slow down if someone speaks up and says they've never done this before, can we go slow. Most enjoy the game and want others to enjoy it too. (If you've joing a group advertising they are going fast then you are definately out of luck). Communicate with the party. If it doesn't match your needs, bow out and try another. There are new people out there, with the merges a lot more quests being run at a lot more experience levels that before.

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Comments above.

My thoughts:

1) There are many quests, I like that they are about the same. The randomness to me is in the loot. I like this part of the game. I don't like the wilderness areas. I don't care about a kill count in a zone.

2) A guild can satisy this. Where you can help others, with YOUR play style you like, and chat with them. Besided it is a character sheet, it is individulized. Not a Group Sheet. No stats on how many times a server has killed the titian. Yes a bunch of individuals, with induvidual goals, who come together to collectivly acheive thier goal. iee LFM :I need more favor... others do too, vola, a group is born!!!!

3) I am a proponet of zerging. I am somewhat fortunate that I have higher level characters to finance my lowbies to tweak them. Risidual effect= noobs can and will get better gear... I usually tell otherss, when I am runnning my lowbies that if the see anything the want or can use let ne know. I will usually give it to them. Yes... I even give away dragon shards. I have enough in the bank I don't need to respect, and usually I progress my characters with a end game character in mind, so no or little need for me to respect.

But also, I modify my playstyle to the group. If they want to crawl, that is ok. I usually enjoy the "chaos" it brings by not spoiling the action to those new in a dungeon. Also this this helps me become better. How? By reaction to those "oh Sh@#!" moments those new bring, and seeing what me character can do to get the group out. To me this helps in End game where there are those biggers mess ups.

Agrees, new players = more DDO. Take care of the NOOBS. Who knows, they may eventually get to End Game and will be there to loot with you.

For my part, the feature that was the most interesting was the maze where you knew what kind of traps were there, but whether or not they were there every time rotated. I think if the dungeons had the capasity to rotate the placement of encounters/traps, it would help the feel of the dungeons for those who 'know where everything is'. It's ok for people to know WHAT is in a dungeon, or WHERE things 'typically' are, but having that element to the instance would enable more scouts/rogues to offer their services to the party, rather than simply 'whoever memorized the dungeon' to take the lead and make the call on how fast action is happening. Given time/experience, this randomization will not be an issue for skilled players.

Wide open roam-the-plains style gaming I have always loathed. Is it fun to explore and see the scenery? Oh yes... the first time or two. After that, it becomes annoying crossing an expanse, and hunting around for what you're looking for within that broad area. Allowing people to teleport to a destination once they've explored it (see Tangleroot: Ungurz or however ya spell him) was a very good thing. The explorable areas were a step in the right direction. At least since it's instanced, you don't worry about griefing unless it's your own party members, and in which case, you reform the party.

I've never liked free-roaming mobs either, I prefer it when they have a designated spawn area so I don't have the annoyance of wanderers. It's not 'fun' to be a lower level character, picking the creatures to kill that you know you can handle, only to have something way out of your league wander up on you mid fight, because that's where it decided to path to today. With the given mobs in certain places, I know what I'm up against roughly. Maybe if there was a way to make mob parties sporatically be there or not be there (like the 'sometimes' traps of the maze), it would be a happy compromise?

Games are always evolving. Features available in the beginning of the game, and playstyles that existed at start up, will change and grow over time. This is true of any game. Sometimes they revamp a whole system, or come up with an entirely new way for players to do something, rework entire graphical engines, or realize that an old way of doing something was stupid or broken. There are two elements to this: time and player feedback. Obviously the second of those two things is easy to come by fortunately. :D Unfortunately, the first is one that is less forgiving, and will ultimately affect the second.

The OP is right on every single point. I would add that all the problems listed are interrelated. The static, 6-man instanced quests gear people to run content very similarly each attempt, as fast as they can on their 57th try, and to avoid other people who may take a different approach.

I've said before that this game played like a 6-man LAN FPS (local area network first person shooter). I was wrong. It does indeed play more like a single player game where 5 other soloers can share some of the action.

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Originally Posted by lord_painne

3) Many of the players of DDO are hardcore, aggressive players who have (surprise!) done the same dungeons over and over and over ... they anticipate new group members having the same level of experience as they themselves do. And have little patience with actual NEW players. (How many of you have been left in the dust of an unfamiliar dungeon by a "pickup" group, and then been derided for your lack of skills or experience? I don’t know about you, but it leaves a pretty sour taste for the game on new players (me having been one) and does not make one want to continue.

NEW PLAYERS ARE THE LIFEBLOOD OF THE GAME! If we ignore them, or deride them, or belittle them, there will be no one left but a few withered old gaffers talking about the way things "used to be” right before the last bitter sunset of the game.

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/rant on
I always try to help new players, at least when i know they are new players! I do loose my patience when noobs zerg ahead like they know what they are doing! If you dont know, SAY SO!. There is no shame in admitting your new. Also to some of the vets, Dont think that just because someone dont tell you everything that is in the quest that you need to tell them what to do, or how to do it. Nothing more annoying than someone who has played for a month and knows how HE/She runs SDK telling me what to cast or what weapon I should use. Been here for almost a year now, think I know the quest, and if I forget something, well then its a surprise and it makes it more fun for me! :)
/rant off

"new" players aren't D&D fans so much as MMO players.

what Turbine needs to do is admit that this is a niche game that shouldn't pander to the LCD the way WoW does and then work towards that goal.

Have to comment on the wide open part also... I recall from playing EQ 1 very early on when (what class was it?) one of the caster classes got the ability to cast teleport there was a lot of money to be made porting people around that didn't want to run through those wide open expanses for the 1000th time...