A smart cheat : How to Improve your DPS in "Daul Shooter", dont use it

[darkmoon_cn]

As everyone knows, Daul Shooter's current double shot is 1/2 of the basic double shot, which seems quite reasonable.
Because when you use Inquisitive, and use Daul Shooter, the double shot of 1+A is improved to 2(1+0
5A)=2+A, which just satisfies the double crossbow with one more crossbow (that is, the idea of adding 100 double shots)
But when I accidentally did a test today, I found a huge mistake in the game.
At the same attack speed, when "No holds barred" is turned on, "Daul Shooter" and "Single crossbow without Daul Shooter" consume exactly the same ammunition rounds. In other words, when the machine gun is turned on, the damage of holding a heavy crossbow in one hand is 1+A, but the double crossbow is only 1+0.5A left. This matter is very against experience, which means that when I gave up the most important Enhancement "dual shooter" of Inquisitive, my machine gun damage in the dungeon increased instead. This obviously violates Inquisitive's design philosophy

[homepage9]

As everyone knows, Daul Shooter's current double shot is 1/2 of the basic double shot, which seems quite reasonable.
Because when you use Inquisitive, and use Daul Shooter, the double shot of 1+A is improved to 2(1+0
5A)=2+A, which just satisfies the double crossbow with one more crossbow (that is, the idea of adding 100 double shots)
But when I accidentally did a test today, I found a huge mistake in the game.
At the same attack speed, when "No holds barred" is turned on, "Daul Shooter" and "Single crossbow without Daul Shooter" consume exactly the same ammunition rounds. In other words, when the machine gun is turned on, the damage of holding a heavy crossbow in one hand is 1+A, but the double crossbow is only 1+0.5A left. This matter is very against experience, which means that when I gave up the most important Enhancement "dual shooter" of Inquisitive, my machine gun damage in the dungeon increased instead. This obviously violates Inquisitive's design philosophy

Really?? Let me test it.
Hmmmmm.... you're right.

WOW, how smart SSG.

[Steelstar]

As everyone knows, Daul Shooter's current double shot is 1/2 of the basic double shot, which seems quite reasonable.
Because when you use Inquisitive, and use Daul Shooter, the double shot of 1+A is improved to 2(1+0
5A)=2+A, which just satisfies the double crossbow with one more crossbow (that is, the idea of adding 100 double shots)
But when I accidentally did a test today, I found a huge mistake in the game.
At the same attack speed, when "No holds barred" is turned on, "Daul Shooter" and "Single crossbow without Daul Shooter" consume exactly the same ammunition rounds. In other words, when the machine gun is turned on, the damage of holding a heavy crossbow in one hand is 1+A, but the double crossbow is only 1+0.5A left. This matter is very against experience, which means that when I gave up the most important Enhancement "dual shooter" of Inquisitive, my machine gun damage in the dungeon increased instead. This obviously violates Inquisitive's design philosophy

No Holds Barred (and Endless Fusillade) do exactly what they say in their tooltip: Remove the reload step from their firing animations for the duration. This may mean, in some situations, that while that ability is active your firing rate is similar to other crossbows. Yes, you have less Doubleshot in that situation than you might on other crossbows.

If you find you do more overall DPS while running dungeons by not using the Dual Shooter enhancement because you maintain a near-constant uptime on No Holds Barred, more power to you; enjoy that build.

[Mindos]

you can do some cool things skipping that dual shooter. and if you also notice the whole no reload time, you can make some cool choices about what to give up or take in some other trees. smart play, near constant machine gun, say hmmmm 18 rogue 2 arti, volley great crossbow, horrible to level, but respec and at 30, watchout.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

horrible to level, but respec and at 30, watchout.

Then its useless for me, because I don't play 30.

I vastly prefer having good tools during leveling.

I won't do Pale Master, though.

[Djjinni]

Then its useless for me, because I don't play 30.

I vastly prefer having good tools during leveling.

I won't do Pale Master, though.


A build idea not fitting into your playstyle is totally fine, and there being builds that are strong at different levels and for different uses is not a bad thing.

[droid327]

A, yes your proportional benefit from double shot in NHB with DXB is less, BUT...you're still shooting twice per attack cycle. So you either get 1+DS, or 2+1.5 DS (your math is wrong, it's not 2(1+A) but 2+A+0.5A). There is no break even point between those two lines, DXB is always ahead.

Except the one possibility where your one handed xbow is better than your dxb: namely, gxb. But pulling a Predator and swapping to minigun mode in NHB is not a new strategy.

B, it's a good time to repeat my case for one of the hills I love to die on...

There is ZERO mathematical support for Dshot penalties for ANY weapon - DXB, RXB, anything. Since dshot no longer increases proc rate for on-hits, it is PURELY a dps scalar. And because it's on its own unique multiplicative channel, it's a straight linear multiplier. 100% Dshot doubles your dps, straight up. It's independent of fire rate, base damage, crit profile, anything. Totally agnostic of anything related to weapon styles.

So therefore there is NO inherent advantage or disadvantage for Dshot using any weapon style. And therefore there's no need to compensate with a penalty. If a weapon style is balanced without Dshot, it should still be balanced with full Dshot. If something is too powerful with full Dshot, then its still equally overpowered without it, and Dshot isn't the problem.

[werewolfling]

A, yes your proportional benefit from double shot in NHB with DXB is less, BUT...you're still shooting twice per attack cycle. So you either get 1+DS, or 2+1.5 DS (your math is wrong, it's not 2(1+A) but 2+A+0.5A). There is no break even point between those two lines, DXB is always ahead.

Except the one possibility where your one handed xbow is better than your dxb: namely, gxb. But pulling a Predator and swapping to minigun mode in NHB is not a new strategy.

B, it's a good time to repeat my case for one of the hills I love to die on...

There is ZERO mathematical support for Dshot penalties for ANY weapon - DXB, RXB, anything. Since dshot no longer increases proc rate for on-hits, it is PURELY a dps scalar. And because it's on its own unique multiplicative channel, it's a straight linear multiplier. 100% Dshot doubles your dps, straight up. It's independent of fire rate, base damage, crit profile, anything. Totally agnostic of anything related to weapon styles.

So therefore there is NO inherent advantage or disadvantage for Dshot using any weapon style. And therefore there's no need to compensate with a penalty. If a weapon style is balanced without Dshot, it should still be balanced with full Dshot. If something is too powerful with full Dshot, then its still equally overpowered without it, and Dshot isn't the problem.

Not sure for 2+1.5 DS, I thought the Update of Daul Shooter says that each crossbow (in your two hand) can have same DS, which half of you should have.
So isnt it means 2* (1+0.5DS) ?

[droid327]

Oh ok I see what they're trying to set up there, ok

Still, 2+A is always better than 1+A unless your gxb literally puts out twice the dps of a hxb.

And it still should be 2+2A to preserve proportional dps

[Oxarhamar]

A, yes your proportional benefit from double shot in NHB with DXB is less, BUT...you're still shooting twice per attack cycle. So you either get 1+DS, or 2+1.5 DS (your math is wrong, it's not 2(1+A) but 2+A+0.5A). There is no break even point between those two lines, DXB is always ahead.

Except the one possibility where your one handed xbow is better than your dxb: namely, gxb. But pulling a Predator and swapping to minigun mode in NHB is not a new strategy.

B, it's a good time to repeat my case for one of the hills I love to die on...

There is ZERO mathematical support for Dshot penalties for ANY weapon - DXB, RXB, anything. Since dshot no longer increases proc rate for on-hits, it is PURELY a dps scalar. And because it's on its own unique multiplicative channel, it's a straight linear multiplier. 100% Dshot doubles your dps, straight up. It's independent of fire rate, base damage, crit profile, anything. Totally agnostic of anything related to weapon styles.

So therefore there is NO inherent advantage or disadvantage for Dshot using any weapon style. And therefore there's no need to compensate with a penalty. If a weapon style is balanced without Dshot, it should still be balanced with full Dshot. If something is too powerful with full Dshot, then its still equally overpowered without it, and Dshot isn't the problem.

Repeater gets nerfs the hardest by Doubleshot penalty

Sure running single crossbow instead of double crossbow gets more double shot bonus however I still found both Single & Double crossbow in Inquisitive to be completely underwhelming

[Oxarhamar]

No Holds Barred (and Endless Fusillade) do exactly what they say in their tooltip: Remove the reload step from their firing animations for the duration. This may mean, in some situations, that while that ability is active your firing rate is similar to other crossbows. Yes, you have less Doubleshot in that situation than you might on other crossbows.

If you find you do more overall DPS while running dungeons by not using the Dual Shooter enhancement because you maintain a near-constant uptime on No Holds Barred, more power to you; enjoy that build.

Neither single of dual crossbow is that great



Speaking of No holds barred & Endless Fusillade

They are exclusive and having both provides a powerful buff
However the enhancements to get them both are also mostly exclusive to weapon types which are not the same so it’s a huge cost to unlock in stuff that has zero benefits making the cost far outweigh the reward

[Chai]

If they want to incentivize button activation bursts and such (and it sure seems like they do) then double shot penalties should have been coded where the first shot in each volley gets 100% double shot while the other(s) get 0%. It should go off on the first round of every reload rather than being cut in half (inquis) or in thirds (repeater) for all rounds.

[Oxarhamar]

If they want to incentivize button activation bursts and such (and it sure seems like they do) then double shot penalties should have been coded where the first shot in each volley gets 100% double shot while the other(s) get 0%. It should go off on the first round of every reload rather than being cut in half (inquis) or in thirds (repeater) for all rounds.

It’s really here nor there

It’s still a nerf just by a different measure

When repeaters didn’t get the 1/3 penalty they felt more balanced

[anangel22]

Then its useless for me, because I don't play 30.

I vastly prefer having good tools during leveling.

I won't do Pale Master, though.

your choice, your problem.

your choice, your problem.

No idea how PM even made it in there.

[Tsutti]

B, it's a good time to repeat my case for one of the hills I love to die on...

There is ZERO mathematical support for Dshot penalties for ANY weapon - DXB, RXB, anything. Since dshot no longer increases proc rate for on-hits, it is PURELY a dps scalar. And because it's on its own unique multiplicative channel, it's a straight linear multiplier. 100% Dshot doubles your dps, straight up. It's independent of fire rate, base damage, crit profile, anything. Totally agnostic of anything related to weapon styles.

So therefore there is NO inherent advantage or disadvantage for Dshot using any weapon style. And therefore there's no need to compensate with a penalty. If a weapon style is balanced without Dshot, it should still be balanced with full Dshot. If something is too powerful with full Dshot, then its still equally overpowered without it, and Dshot isn't the problem.

Soooo about the last paragraph... you literally said in the first paragraph that it's a linear dps multiplier. If this is the case, then removing doubleshot penalties from a weapon type would cause it to do more damage, meaning that if it is balanced now then it could potentially not be balanced without the penalty since not all weapon types take equal penalties and not all weapon types do the same dps. If something is overpowered with full doubleshot, reducing its doubleshot reduces its damage and ergo reduces the overpoweredness of it.

[Oxarhamar]

Soooo about the last paragraph... you literally said in the first paragraph that it's a linear dps multiplier. If this is the case, then removing doubleshot penalties from a weapon type would cause it to do more damage, meaning that if it is balanced now then it could potentially not be balanced without the penalty since not all weapon types take equal penalties and not all weapon types do the same dps. If something is overpowered with full doubleshot, reducing its doubleshot reduces its damage and ergo reduces the overpoweredness of it.

Ok but the doubleshot penalty is for example highest on repeater that’s not currently balanced with other ranged styles or is it overpowered not at all in epics or legendary

Repeater is op at lvl 1 maybe but that’s not because of doubleshot

I think that avoiding using dual shooters enhancement because of the penalty makes it fairly obvious that the penalty is not correct

So much of ranged gameplay is based on doubleshot items, set bonuses, feats, epic past life toggles, enhancements, action boosts

All nerfed by equipping weapons that reduces double shot

[Tsutti]

Ok but the doubleshot penalty is for example highest on repeater that’s not currently balanced with other ranged styles or is it overpowered not at all in epics or legendary

Repeater is op at lvl 1 maybe but that’s not because of doubleshot

I think that avoiding using dual shooters enhancement because of the penalty makes it fairly obvious that the penalty is not correct

So much of ranged gameplay is based on doubleshot items, set bonuses, feats, epic past life toggles, enhancements, action boosts

All nerfed by equipping weapons that reduces double shot

My point wasn't whether a particular thing (e.g. repeaters) is OP or not, but to dispute his claim that removing doubleshot penalties or adding them couldn't change how balanced a style is especially relative to other styles.

[Oxarhamar]

My point wasn't whether a particular thing (e.g. repeaters) is OP or not, but to dispute his claim that removing doubleshot penalties or adding them couldn't change how balanced a style is especially relative to other styles.

Yes like how adding doubleshot penalty to repeaters has made them underwhelming compared to other weapons

[Tlorrd]

As everyone knows, Daul Shooter's current double shot is 1/2 of the basic double shot, which seems quite reasonable.
Because when you use Inquisitive, and use Daul Shooter, the double shot of 1+A is improved to 2(1+0
5A)=2+A, which just satisfies the double crossbow with one more crossbow (that is, the idea of adding 100 double shots)
But when I accidentally did a test today, I found a huge mistake in the game.
At the same attack speed, when "No holds barred" is turned on, "Daul Shooter" and "Single crossbow without Daul Shooter" consume exactly the same ammunition rounds. In other words, when the machine gun is turned on, the damage of holding a heavy crossbow in one hand is 1+A, but the double crossbow is only 1+0.5A left. This matter is very against experience, which means that when I gave up the most important Enhancement "dual shooter" of Inquisitive, my machine gun damage in the dungeon increased instead. This obviously violates Inquisitive's design philosophy

Epic Storm is primetime for this reason and I ran it recently as single HXB with NHB. DPS was great as crit multi is x3 base and x4 with Inq tree. Also base damage is d12 on it too, so that's better. I'm still waiting to see what the legendary Storm has, but as folks have stated, the crit multi is going away i think. Rapid reload give HXB the highest reload alacrity also at 65% compared to 50% for GXB. Less for dual shooting etc.

[Tilomere]

No Holds Barred (and Endless Fusillade) do exactly what they say in their tooltip: Remove the reload step from their firing animations for the duration. This may mean, in some situations, that while that ability is active your firing rate is similar to other crossbows. Yes, you have less Doubleshot in that situation than you might on other crossbows.

If you find you do more overall DPS while running dungeons by not using the Dual Shooter enhancement because you maintain a near-constant uptime on No Holds Barred, more power to you; enjoy that build.

At least for the next 2 days. Huehuehue.

I posted this 1.5 years ago (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/514930-How-to-boost-your-inquisitor-dps-by-45), but people didn't seem to get it. Heh. Steelstar seemed to have gotten it though, which is why he deleted action hero.

[Oxarhamar]

At least for the next 2 days. Huehuehue.

I posted this 1.5 years ago (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/514930-How-to-boost-your-inquisitor-dps-by-45), but people didn't seem to get it. Heh. Steelstar seemed to have gotten it though, which is why he deleted action hero.

Tried it but didn't like it didn't like inquisitive so must probably why