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Phil7
07-17-2017, 03:24 PM
Something interesting happened to me lately... something which made me think, what if debuffing bosses is actually viable?

I was running an EE LoD farming tokens and some dude was in Divine Crusader using Purification. He stood next to the drow boss who at first hit me for 100+ dmg and then after some seconds he kept dealing 0 damage to me. At first I was like "Huh?" but then I Z'd the boss and saw he had 25 stacks of Purification.
Which means -25 damage and -50 spell power.

That is interesting because if he was dealing let's say 130 dmg per hit, he should be dealing 105 dmg per hit after the debuff. But it seems that bosses are also affected from Melee/Ranged Power and dungeon scaling and that means lowering their base damage is very effective. So how would this affect reaper bosses who have insane damage scaling?

After that I did a bit of research and found most of the useful player-available debuffs for bosses in the game. They are few unfortunately but it turns out that the best theoritical Debuffer would be the... warlock.

So here is my list of noticable debuffs that we can use (I propably forgot something):

DEBUFFS

Aura of Purification: Active Ability: (Cooldown 3 seconds) Toggle: Every 3 Seconds While Active: Nearby enemies gain a stack of Purification. Purification: -1 Attack Damage, -2 Spell Power, stacks up to 25 times.

*Could this be effective enough to help your fellow tank in high reaper?

Bound Fate: (Active Cooldown: 4mins) A single target must make a Will save with a DC modified by the caster's Charisma modifier. On a failed save, the target is bound briefly to the spot, and for one minute is also [6/10/12]% more vulnerable to magical damage, and has -[6/10/12] Spell Resistance. In addition, the creature deals -[4/6/8] damage on attacks. Duration 45 seconds.

Grim Fate: Your Bound Fate now inflicts creatures with an additional [6%/10%/12%] vulnerability to Physical attacks. Grim Fate may take effect even if Bound Fate does not. Duration 1 minute.

*Another -8 damage to stack and extra physical/magic damage for the group. Does this stack with Vulnerability? Well examining a boss with both effects applied shows both icons on the Examine Window so I would assume it stacks.
Cooldown of 4 mins with 1min duration is not bad, it basically screams "boss fights!", but Fatesinger has so far been a completely neglected Destiny and would net a huge DPS loss for most builds, except for the healer or the CC/instakill caster.
Ok after further testing it seems that the Bound/Grim Fate will always work on everything. The Will save is only for the immobilization effect.

So which Destiny should the healer and the CC caster choose? Odysseus2011 already showed us that you can play a CC/insta-kills caster in R10 in Unyielding Sentinel (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9WSOa9vrpw). That means we don't need to be in Magister/Exalted Angel to play in R10 as a DC caster.


WARLOCK DEBUFFER

Now I said the best Debuffer imo would be the Warlock. That is because of his Soul Eater tree and his Eldritch Burst which during boss-fights provide free empowered dots, free damage from safety and a lot of debuffs. Let's see:

Devour the Soul: apart from the free death-spell you get a 6 second debuff for -20PRR/MRR.
If this works on bosses you basically have more DPS for your group. With a 15 second cooldown

Stricken: reduce HAMP by -120 with a high saving throw. A lot of bosses regen so that's a nice one.

Taint the Aura: Debuff your target for -10 PRR/MRR = more group DPS.

Strickened Soul: Against targets marked by your Stricken attack: Your Eldritch Blast, Melee and Ranged attacks reduce the target's MP/RP/SP by -20 for 10 seconds.
More damage debuff on bosses. Theoritically more survivability for your group.

Strickened Form Against targets marked by your Stricken attack: Your melee, ranged and Eldritch Blast attacks inflict Vulnerability.

*With this you can cap 20 stacks of Vulnerability in less than 30 seconds. Imo this is op and needs to be nerfed using internal cooldown like most similar effects, but atm people can abuse it. And a single party member can keep up Vulnerability on bosses with this. Your DPSers can now use other weapons during boss fights, although LGS Vacuums are still strong for trash.

But there is more... and some might realize now why I claimed before that Wizards are unfortunately dead in high reaper. Because look at the video. The wizard is totally inactive during the boss fight. If he starts dotting he can kiss goodbye to his Spell Points. Sorcerers are in a bit better position due to much more Spell Points and half the cooldowns/casting speed, but imo Warlock is still the #1 CC/insta-killer in high reaper. And Debuffer on top of that.


EXALTED ANGEL

Now which Destiny should our warlock use? Exalted Angel for the increased DCs right? Yes, but not only for the DCs.

Rebuke foe: this is insane! +25% physical and light damage (Consume, Stricken, Eldritch Burst) is incredible.

Shadows Upon You: I don't remember if this works on bosses, but if it does then you can most likely apply Stricken,
Jade Strike and Prismatic Strike on bosses without fear of low DCs. Just combine this with the Wizard Active Past Life feat (magic missiles) and instantly stack it to 10.


GEAR

*Now how can we add even more debuffs to a Debuffer build? Through gear of course. Normally a DC caster at cap would use a Legendary Mutilator of Minds and a LGS Affirmation. Vacuum is no longer needed because of Strickened Form and your DPSers also applying Vulnerability most of the time. But Legendary Mutilator of Minds is kind of useless on boss fights when the trash is dead.

So dual wield Affirmation & Vacuum you say? Or triple acid? Well this is debatable. I have not seen results from all the LGS weapon effects, like LGS Water or Magma, but don't forget this thread is all about group composition and teamwork.
So why not focus even more on debuffing? After all you will have 3 DPSers and yourself to enjoy more damage.

Legendary Dust: -35 PRR and -100 hamp at full stack. 11 seconds duration each stack. Even more damage for you and your group, even less self-healing for the boss!

Legendary Ooze: wiki says 100% proc for -10PRR/MRR, not sure if it stacks + free Ooze for you. Eldritch Burst attack speed is slow so don't expect much here, especially if the debuff doesn't stack. Also legendary oozes seem to have been nerfed and now hit for 50 damage at r10. RIP LGS Ooze...

Legendary Ash: -MRR and SP, I don't know if it stacks or not. MRR is not that significant compared to PRR because of melees/ranged having better DPS than casters and boss spells are not that dangerous compared to physical attacks. Still it's a debuff and it can prove useful.

*So using the above one can achieve a theoritical -75 PRR or -55 PRR if the SE capstone doesn't debuff bosses. According to the wiki, 75 PRR is around 42-43% Damage Reduction.
Assuming a boss has 75 PRR and we reduce it to 0, then every melee/ranged member of your group will be dealing 42-43% MORE DAMAGE.
For 55 PRR on a 55 PRR boss that is around 35% MORE DAMAGE for your melee/ranged DPSers. And all of this with a minimal damage loss for your DC caster!

edit: the numbers can go higher using Ooze Flask (-8 PRR)! Thanks to Tlorrd for mentioning it.


MONK

*So let's also add Monk to the group. Monks have very strong melee single target dps and good burst-AoE damage.
They also bring with them Knock on the Sky. Stack this 5 times for a -20% damage debuff.

Monks also have Jade Strike which gives a +10% physical damage debuff on a high Will save. Another reason to have a monk in your group.

And of course Focus for a stacking group buff of +5MP/RP and +10 SP.


HEALER

Very nice now I've also mentioned a Healer. What, should he just stand there and heal? That's boring come on. How about a bit of buffing and debuffing? Why don't we give him a bit of love with Aura of Purification for mob debuffing? I don't expect him to stand next to the boss for 25 seconds to cap the debuff on him. No no, Divine Crusader has a lot of tricks for stacking Purification. That will not be an issue.

And let's not forget Crusade for +10% group damage.
No Remorse for free ally healing too.
One can also twist in Sigil of Battering Spellcraft from Magister for the SP boost, but caster dps is lagging behind melee and ranged dps so it's not that significant.
Summer Smoke is also a decent passive DPS boost to your group, but situational due to fire immune mobs and Autumn Harvest can be useful during trash fights.

Cleric: after the upcoming pass a Cleric using Earthquake for increased CC and playing in Divine Crusader is a great option for the healer role.
Take Divine Vitality for your fellow caster and Reactive Heal for everyone in the group along with Positive Aura for group regeneration.
*Earthquake is imo one of the best CC spells in the game by far, along with Otto's Sphere of Dancing and Evard's Tentacles. Long duration AoE spells which reapply their CC effect every few seconds. Evard's Tentacles sacrifice duration for the helpless damage, something which Earthquake and Otto's Sphere don't have, but would be op if they did.

I've seen a number of people and guildies playing healer/cleric at R10 and I noticed the lack of activity from the class. At times it could be extremely demanding tho if your group was getting wrecked. You have to be very fast at healing/ressing and also avoid mobs and notice the chat or hear your teammates screaming to see who is ressable or not. The above mentioned abilities add a lot of passive healing and safety to help against situations like these. It also makes the role more enjoyable and makes you feel that you are contributing more to fights.

Favored Soul: you can play this build in Exalted Angel using insta-kills in addition to healing.
Purification can still be stacked from you and your party members using Interrogation and Purge the Wicked. This can speed up boss fights through faster Rebuke Foe stacking and allow for more insta-kills, but will overall apply less stacks of Purification to trash mobs as opposed to a Divine Crusader healer and you lose Earthquake. It sacrifices safety for speed. Read HERE for more info.
*If playing as a FVS/Cleric insta-kill build with maxed Necro DC then you can also use Symbol of Weakness on bosses for a maximum 3d6 STR penalty.
According to the wiki (http://ddowiki.com/page/Named_monster#Red_-_Powerful_Named_Enemy) the abilities of Red Named bosses can only be reduced by 10 (max -5 damage) and Purple Named bosses are immune to ability damage.

Bard: I was looking for ways to add the Fatesinger destiny in the group composition without hurting the overall group DPS. I had already considered the Bard as a main group Healer, but the benefits of a FVS or a Cleric looked better in theory... until I decided to sum up all the possible buffs/debuffs the Bard can bring in a fight :)
So let me give you a quick glimpse of how a Warchanter Bard in Fatesinger can contribute:

+2 abilities, competence - group buff (Inspire Excellence)
+12 dmg/+12 to-hit, moral - group buffs (improved Inspired Courage with Warchanter & Fatesinger - Echoes: Martial - LD)
+5 dmg/to-hit, +15 prr/resists, music - on 1 ally for 2 mins (Inspire Heroics + Warchanter capstone)
+6 Spell Power/DBstrike/DBshot, music - group buff (Warchanter)
+3 dmg, +1 CHA, untyped - group buff (Fascinate + Sharp Note/Masked Ball)
+1dmg/to-hit (Enchant Weapon)
+1 spell DCs, +10% (morale) SP discount, group buff (Spellsinger)
+3 Spell Penetration, on 1 ally for 4mins (Spellsinger)
+6% melee/ranged dmg/spell crit chance, music - group buff (Warchanter T5)
-3 to a specific Saving Throw, debuff (Insults, Swashbuckler T1)
+3% melee atk speed, competence - group buff (Fragment of the Song: Valor)
2% chance to cause 5% electric/light/sonic Vulnerability debuff, group buff (stacks 3 times) (Fragment of the Song: Valor)
No to-hit penalties when moving, group buff (Fragment of the Song: Valor)
+12% Physical & Magical dmg, -8 enemy dmg, -12 Spell Resistance, no save debuffs, 1min duration, 4min cooldown (Bound & Grim Fate)

And on top of that you have Otto's Sphere of Dancing and Mass-Charms! Seriously I'm surprised I've been so ignorant of the build's buffing potential.

For one of your DPS members this would be a rough +22 dmg/to-hit, +6% DBstrike/shot, +3% melee atk speed, +6 MP/RP and +12% more damage on boss fights for 1 minute every 4 minutes.
This is a huge buffing potential right here and imo a well-geared Bard with the proper past lives is the best class to choose for the Healer role in terms of speed in high-reaper dungeons. Note that the Bard's contribution to group DPS through buffs drops significantly when you have fewer melee/ranged DPS members. To stack Purification basically use the same method as the above FVS build and twist in Crusade for the +10% group damage boost.

*Please do not forget the entire purpose of this thread... to maximize efficiency and speed in end-game R10 dungeons. This is only a reminder before anyone says "You have just invalidated all the other healer builds out there because of Bards". No, all the other healer builds are still viable, are easier to play and can also heal better than the Bard. The Bard is only imo the best at playing the Healer role, while simultaneously adding a great deal of group DPS through buffs. Not to mention that playing a Bard alone requires much more concentration due to all the buffs and debuffs which you have to constantly reapply.


Well that's it mostly for Buffers/Debuffers and Healers. Don't forget this all depends on team effort and grouping for maximum efficiency. This is my theoritical best "approach" or 6-man group composition for r10 quests in terms of speed and increased group safety. This does not mean that you are not allowed to play different builds in r10. You can always add more casters or more healers in your group, but sacrifice speed and DPS for safety.

After all this is a game and I can't tell you what to play, I can only show you how to improve.
But the most important of all, epics are dead right now so first we need SSG fixing epic rxp and then... we'll see. Perhaps I'll bump this thread again then ;)


And let's not forget...

TANK & DPS

My notes on the Tank and the DPSers, just to fill the whole group composition:

Tank builds are still not very clear, in terms of efficiency. Imo the pure fighter Dwarf tank is the best IF the character has a lot of displacement and radiant forcefield clickies. Otherwise Pally and Sorc/Wiz splashes are also great.

DPS builds: My opinion is that sustained DPS will triumph over burst dps in high reaper. Mobs have tons of HP and we have terrible damage. Fights take much longer and sustained DPS almost always wins in longer fights.

Now with the Wolf fix (no more Dance of Death or lose SWF) pure Tempests are propably the #1 melee situational sustained-AoE DPS and with insane single target sustained DPS. Yep they do pretty much everything.

Mechanics are propably the #1 ranged option for their best ranged sustained DPS, especially now with the AA imbue fix. Sneak Damage which Mechanics have plenty of is not reduced by the scaling DR that some bosses and mobs have therefore giving the class even more of an advantage. They also obviously do traps which are killer for non-evasioners in R10.

Monk: One unarmed Monk is great to have in an organized group due to Knock on the Sky, Jade Strike, Focus and of course its great melee dps.

MORE DPS OPTIONS

Monkchers are still very good in some situations like Shroud part 2 to burst down the crystal. The AA T5 active ability fix really hurt their burst damage with shurikens, but you can always save Bow & Manyshot for bosses/crystal.

Artificer can be a great replacement for a Mechanic, bringing not only buffs for your teammates like Radiant Forcefield and Weapon DR breakers, but also strong trash CC through Endless Fusilade and specific gear/twists. The DPS of a pure Arti is imo less than that of a pure rogue Mechanic, but Arties also bring with them Prismatic Strike for a -25% damabe debuff! You can read my original post regarding Artificers HERE

Assassin: the class has very strong single-target DPS especially when you maximize your Sneak Damage and can also insta-kill, but the AoE damage requires Cleaves and assassins are not exactly the best at cleaving. Assassins also have Weakening Strikes which reduce enemy MP/RP by 20 (many thanks to Qezuzu for mentioning this!) and Poison Strikes to reduce enemy Fort or Reflex or Will saves by 5. Basically a lesser version of Shadows Upon You.
I'm still skeptical about their DPS output but you can read HERE for some more info.

Of course there are many other options for DPS builds out there like Barbarian, Fighter, Swashbuckler and more, but I do not include these builds here because of their lack of viable Debuffs and their lower sustained DPS (twitching excluded). Everyone is free to play whatever they want, I only showcase my theoritical top builds in terms of speed and increased group safety.

So that would be it, I welcome all comments, criticism and feedback. Let me know what you think and I hope our friends in Ghallanda who are still raiding and running R10 might actually find some use out of this.

Phil7
07-17-2017, 03:38 PM
I would like to mention a few things about PRR and flat increase in incoming/dealt damage.
First of all the increase in incoming/dealt damage (Rebuke Foe, Vulnerability, Jade Strike) is superior to PRR/MRR debuffing.
No matter what the case is or what defensive stats the boss has, the increase in incoming/dealt damage will always be the same. Be it +10%, +20%, +25% it doesn't matter, it doesn't change.

Now the PRR/MRR has -just like with players- a diminishing return. But there is a sweet spot.
The sweet spot is the highest possible increase in outgoing damage through PRR/MRR debuffing. The sweet spot=the highest Debuff value we can achieve. It is the maximum value of PRR/MRR that we want a boss to have.

If our max debuff potential is -83 PRR then we want the boss to have no more than 83 PRR. If the boss has more than 83 PRR in this case, then our debuffing is less effective. If the boss has less than 83 PRR then it's even better for us. We are already dealing more damage to him without debuffing.

Let me show you some examples:
A) boss has 0 PRR, debuff potential is -55 PRR. Our debuffing is basically "wasted" and we gain 0 increase in DPS. But we are already dealing 100% physical damage to the boss which is fine.

B) boss has 30 PRR, debuff potential is -75 PRR. We gain a 23.08% increase in DPS and the boss is left with 0 PRR. Group DPS is the same as in Example A

C) boss has 50 PRR, debuff potential is -50 PRR. We gain a ~33,33% increase in DPS and the boss is left with 0 PRR. Group DPS is the same as in Example A & B.

D) boss has 100 PRR (=50% less damage taken). Our debuff potential is -50 PRR. (50 PRR=33,33% less damage taken)
After debuffing the boss is left with 50 PRR (=33,33% less dmg taken). That means by removing 50 PRR in this case we only gain a 16,67% increase in DPS. Whereas in Example C we gained a 33,33% increase in DPS by also removing 50 PRR.

The diminishing return of the boss' PRR is affecting our debuffing. The more PRR the boss has exceeding our debuffing potential, the less effective our debuffing is. This is why diminishing return is a PITA and flat damage increase/reduction is far superior.

A lot of mobs don't even have PRR and some bosses too and those who do might not even have more than 30. To maximize PRR/MRR debuffing on boss fights we need values from SSG or someone who has them.

Phil7
07-18-2017, 09:45 AM
Small update on the numbers:
With -75 PRR on a theoritical 75 PRR boss and with Jade Strike, Rebuke Foe and Crusade this should result into a 43% + 10% +25% = 78% EXTRA DAMAGE on bosses along with a +10% party DPS from Crusade.
This is sick! I would like to see how long boss fights on R10 can last with such a party composition.

I don't add Crusade to the equation, because 10% extra player DPS does not translate to +10% damage against a boss. Every boss has a defensive value of PRR, MRR etc. and each player has a different DPS score.

edit: including Ooze Flask from Mechanic, a class which I already include in my theoritical group composition we can achieve a -83 PRR. This should add around 2% more damage for ~+80% extra damage.

Vindraxx
07-18-2017, 10:10 AM
I really like some of the theory crafting you're doing in this thread. There does seem to be a lot of options for potential debuff stacking that I haven't seen taken seriously in the past. Would need to have an organized group/guild to really take full advantage of it, but could end up being extremely strong if done correctly.

The damage buffing (-PRR/Vulnerability) has obvious value, but I'm more interested in seeing how effective debuffing damage via purification/etc. would have a significant effect at higher levels of reaper. Overall really interesting, but would love to see some tests of how it plays out in practice.

Qezuzu
07-19-2017, 02:58 PM
You may want to check on the PRR debuffs, iirc PRR cannot go negative and mobs do not have PRR unless specifically given it (e.g. devils in Curse the Sky)

Seeing that damage debuffs apply BEFORE dungeon and other scaling is a big find though, When the servers go back up I can experiment with a few of the wiz/sorc spells that lower stats

jakeelala
07-19-2017, 05:20 PM
awesome thread, not much to add at the moment but thought I'd give you some props.

Qezuzu
07-19-2017, 08:56 PM
So, mob damage DOES scale with their stats (which is how it should be, but you can never know with DDO.)

Wiz/Sorc has Ray of Enfeeblement, Wave of Exhaustion, and Crushing Despair are pretty good options for lowering damage. There's more, but on my Sorc I didn't want to swap out anything else. Stacking all of those is -9 average to damage; in r5 Lords of Dust I was able to reduce the damage of a champion by 40%ish (from 110 a hit to 60 or so.)

Other options of Waves of Fatigue (another -1 if it stacks with Exhaustion, didn't test that) and Symbol of Weakness (-5 average.) Also, Solid Fog (-2.)

Cleric/FvS has Symbol of Weakness (-5 average,) and Prayer (-1) as far as stuff in their spellbook is concerned.

Stat damage (like from Weakening weapons) is scaled down similarly to normal damage, but this doesn't apply to the spells, because they don't directly lower stats, they apply an effect that has a fixed effect. This is not the case for Contagion and Poison spells, which will get scaled down to zero stat damage, so unfortunately (aside from Contagion's Blinding disease) these are still pretty worthless.

Gargoyle69
07-20-2017, 04:38 AM
Thank you for starting this thread. I've been wondering about this too and was tempted to start one just like it.

Bottom line question : under what circumstances is it actually meaningful to debuff bosses? (implied "as opposed to just dpsing them")

I'd like to add in a couple more debuffs a monk can bring. In addition to knock on the sky and jade strike that you've already mentioned, a light monk can also do The Gathering Storm (http://m.ddowiki.com/page/The_Gathering_Storm) and The Raging Sea (http://http://m.ddowiki.com/page/The_Raging_Sea).

So if 5 stacks of Knock on the Sky are built up and maintained, along with Gathering Storm & Raging Sea, that's a total of 15% less attacks, that hit 15% less often, for 20% less damage if they do hit.

My back of the napkin math says that's 0.8 x 0.85 x 0.85 = 0.58 which is a whopping greater than 40% damage reduction. That seems like a lot to me. In any other game that'd be a game changer. The question is, is it in DDO, anywhere?

Surely (he says hopefully) there must be *some* circumstances where the "nothing except dps matters" modus operandi of this game doesn't apply and this would be a solid tactical choice,..... isn't there? Please tell me there are.....R10 boss fights? Maybe?

Edit: Pie in the sky unicorns & rainbows fantasy dream world with me for just a moment. Imagine if debuffing was a thing! Imagine if roles actually mattered and groups doing challenging content desired tanks, healers, trappers, and..... debuffers! How cool would that be? How much of an awesome game would that make it? Ok, ok, enough of that now. Back to your regularly scheduled program....

Tlorrd
07-20-2017, 07:36 AM
And Shadows Upon You: I don't remember if this works on bosses

Shadows upon you does work against bosses. When I play cleric ... I'll drop Shadows Upon You on the boss and instantly in a group or with Wiz PL it'll stack to -12 debuff. Then drop a symbol of pain and then bestow curse to get -20 to saves. Thus damage spells or anything that requires a save is much much more possible to land or do the full extent of damage ... Sun Bolt, Divine Wrath, Energy Burst, etc.


Small update on the numbers:
With -75 PRR on a theoritical 75 PRR boss and with Jade Strike, Rebuke Foe and Crusade this should result into a 43% + 10% +25% = 78% EXTRA DAMAGE on bosses along with a +10% party DPS from Crusade.
This is sick!

Also don't forget Shadow Mastery from Shadow Dancer (T6 core). On a vorpal mobs get 5% vulnerability to physical damage and have the immunity to sneak attack removed. Mechanics (and perfect single weapon fighting) vorpal on 19-20. This procs quite a bit and can add to the damage output. I like to couple this with Crusade.

I've tried to find a way to fit in something with light spell damage on my mech to then have Rebuke Foe also ... But I think you'd need the T3 or T4 of ES warlock to have light damage apply to attacks and thus build up righteous fervor which takes out Expert Builder ... not ideal, unless you had 6 ranger and went with sniper shot.

But Shadow mastery with Crusade and TF Vulnerabiltiy (I don't have Vacuum) ... that's 35% increase in damage (roughly).

Also Ooze flask from Mech tree can give -8 PRR to mobs ... while not super ... can add to a group with all the other PRR debuffs you mentioned.

JOTMON
07-20-2017, 07:43 AM
and now that you have posted this.. Dev's will use it to screw those debuffs and make bosses immune since that is their typical approach to boss debuffs.

Tlorrd
07-20-2017, 08:08 AM
and now that you have posted this.. Dev's will use it to screw those debuffs and make bosses immune since that is their typical approach to boss debuffs.

oh no ... the game will change again! ... the world will still turn. It's ok.

JOTMON
07-20-2017, 08:33 AM
oh no ... the game will change again! ... the world will still turn. It's ok.

Would prefer to see dev's improve the game by making boss debuffs viable.

There should be a whole subset of boss debuffs and debuff spells usable by player to mitigate boss damage and defences.
bring back diversified class teamwork to optimally deal with bosses instead of the current mindset of.. just bring mass brute DPS..

Tlorrd
07-20-2017, 08:37 AM
Would prefer to see dev's improve the game by making boss debuffs viable.

There should be a whole subset of boss debuffs and debuff spells usable by player to mitigate boss damage and defences.
bring back diversified class teamwork to optimally deal with bosses instead of the current mindset of.. just bring mass brute DPS..

This whole thread has a whole list of what you're asking for ... People just need to work as a team to stack these.

Phil7
07-20-2017, 01:12 PM
Big thanks to everyone appreciated.


You may want to check on the PRR debuffs, iirc PRR cannot go negative and mobs do not have PRR unless specifically given it (e.g. devils in Curse the Sky)

Seeing that damage debuffs apply BEFORE dungeon and other scaling is a big find though, When the servers go back up I can experiment with a few of the wiz/sorc spells that lower stats

Ty for checking that Qezuzu that's good to know. I'm currently on an Arti life so I can't test wizards/sorcs. Only Warlocks at cap. My next 2 Wizard lives will be Slarden's Wraith build as melee so forget it :)

Phil7
07-20-2017, 01:44 PM
Bottom line question : under what circumstances is it actually meaningful to debuff bosses? (implied "as opposed to just dpsing them")

Example A: if a group (experienced players) runs Black & Blue in R1 then a Debuffer would actually slow down the group through a decrease in overall DPS. That is because in R1 tanks, healers and CC casters are not necessary. Melees can just Dire Charge and aoe burst and ranged can ice.

Example B: group runs Black & Blue in R10 and they need a tank, because otherwise boss fights will wipe. The tank needs a healer to keep him alive. The group also needs a CC caster to constantly render the mobs helpless. The group has just lost a huge amount of overall DPS, but it is necessary to complete the quest. Ok the healer might not be necessary, but that would require huge concentration from the caster and the tank.

In case A the debuffer actually "hurts the group DPS", because Warlock boss DPS is not that great and could be replaced by a Tempest/Mechanic etc.
In case B the debuffer offers a substantial theoritical increase in the group's DPS at a minimal loss of his personal DPS. He also helps the tank through boss damage-debuff while in case A there is no tank to help.

My perception of most games is "DPS, DPS, DPS". Everything from DDO to WOW to GW2 focuses on maximizing your DPS. You can not change that.
When you become better in a game and you can start sacrificing survivability in favor of DPS and surviving through game-mechanics, then you also start to cheese and speed run. Having always been a power gamer in most games and favoring fotm builds and DPS my answer to your question would be: Debuff only when you need it to survive and when it doesn't kill your DPS. And of course use it when it boosts your group's overall DPS :)



Surely (he says hopefully) there must be *some* circumstances where the "nothing except dps matters" modus operandi of this game doesn't apply and this would be a solid tactical choice,..... isn't there? Please tell me there are.....R10 boss fights? Maybe?
Yes R10 runs that is correct this is what my thread focuses on. Now I mentioned cheesing and speed running. Right now we have 3 versions of R10 boss fightning.
1) charm thrash and let them kill the boss
2) range and park in a safe spot
3) balanced group with tank healer etc.

Number 3 is fine and I am trying to improve the group compositions, Number 2 will never be fixed because ranged>mob AI and Number 3 is broken in high skulls and needs to be changed. Changed how? By nerfing it out of orbit? NO!

Instead as Morroiel has suggested in the forums, give bosses an "Anti-Charm aura" which prevents trash in boss fights from being charmed. And perhaps slightly reduce trash mob damage against other trash mobs.
This means that charm will still be strong in reaper (good), charmers will take wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy longer to kill bosses when soloing (good, stops cheesing) and balanced groups will be able to compete in dungeon speed. This is the best suggestion I have read so far about charming in reaper, I hope they listen to Morroiel more he really knows what he says.



Edit: Pie in the sky unicorns & rainbows fantasy dream world with me for just a moment. Imagine if debuffing was a thing! Imagine if roles actually mattered and groups doing challenging content desired tanks, healers, trappers, and..... debuffers! How cool would that be? How much of an awesome game would that make it? Ok, ok, enough of that now. Back to your regularly scheduled program....
Yes the things you mentioned are already a thing in R10 and so can be debuffers.



I'd like to add in a couple more debuffs a monk can bring. In addition to knock on the sky and jade strike that you've already mentioned, a light monk can also do The Gathering Storm (http://m.ddowiki.com/page/The_Gathering_Storm) and The Raging Sea (http://http://m.ddowiki.com/page/The_Raging_Sea).
So if 5 stacks of Knock on the Sky are built up and maintained, along with Gathering Storm & Raging Sea, that's a total of 15% less attacks, that hit 15% less often, for 20% less damage if they do hit.

Ty for contributing, I have also thought of atk speed/slow debuffs (LGS Salt), but most of them tend to not work against bosses. Most likely Raging Sea too. Reducing boss attack/movement speed is a bit overpowered imo.

Phil7
07-20-2017, 02:31 PM
Shadows upon you does work against bosses. When I play cleric ... I'll drop Shadows Upon You on the boss and instantly in a group or with Wiz PL it'll stack to -12 debuff. Then drop a symbol of pain and then bestow curse to get -20 to saves. Thus damage spells or anything that requires a save is much much more possible to land or do the full extent of damage ... Sun Bolt, Divine Wrath, Energy Burst, etc.

Exactly, but for me to bother with such spells we first need SSG to make caster dps meaningful in high skulls.



Also don't forget Shadow Mastery from Shadow Dancer (T6 core). On a vorpal mobs get 5% vulnerability to physical damage and have the immunity to sneak attack removed. Mechanics (and perfect single weapon fighting) vorpal on 19-20. This procs quite a bit and can add to the damage output. I like to couple this with Crusade.

Yes I thought of Shadow Mastery, but I did not bother posting it for a simple reason. +5% DPS from a Mechanic in SD for your 3 DPSers in the group with a completely joke Destiny compared to LD versus a Mechanic in LD Blitzing is most likely a much lower overall group DPS. I'm sorry but it's just like Fatesinger... one or two great abilities and the rest is junk. In the end resulting in less DPS for your group :(

SSG needs to revamp the Destinies, but not make them a DPS fest. Instead they need to give them roles like they have in LOTRO. Make Fatesinger a great party buffer, give SD and Grandmaster of Flowers unique stacking debuffs, usable only as a monk or rogue/mechanic, give druids benefits for playing in Primal Avatar etc. Otherwise people will just find the highest dps and the rest will burn.



But Shadow mastery with Crusade and TF Vulnerabiltiy (I don't have Vacuum) ... that's 35% increase in damage (roughly).
Not exactly, Crusade is not always a +10% increase in DPS. It varies from mob to mob
edit: just saw your "roughly" :D



Also Ooze flask from Mech tree can give -8 PRR to mobs ... while not super ... can add to a group with all the other PRR debuffs you mentioned.
AMAZING!! thanks for pointing this out I totaly forgot about this

Qezuzu
07-20-2017, 03:40 PM
Assassin enhancement allows for up to -15 melee power on a mob.

Phil7
07-20-2017, 03:50 PM
updated 2nd post regarding PRR/MRR and flat damage increase.

Phil7
07-21-2017, 11:47 AM
Assassin enhancement allows for up to -15 melee power on a mob.

This is great but there is a small problem... Weakening Strikes works only against enemies marked with "Assassin's Mark."
Assassin's Mark is applied by Poison Strikes and all 3 Poison Strikes require a melee weapon. This means TA, Assassin or a melee build with at least 4 rogue levels.

I'm not aware of a melee rogue-splashed build that is worth bothering with at endgame. TA is a flavor build and Assassin is very strong, but has a problem in boss fights. He gains a huge boost to his damage against a single enemy, but most of it comes from Measure the Foe which requires you to stealth - wait 1 second - pop out of stealth. Or wait 5 seconds while in Stealth to gain max stacks (+30 MP) for 10 seconds. And after 10 seconds repeat...
Unless you can attack and stay in Stealth somehow, but still you must exit Stealth to gain the buff from Measure the Foe.

If they change Measure the Foe to not require Stealth then imo Assassin can be one of the best single target sustained DPS classes in the game. Equal to and perhaps stronger than Tempest. They used to be the best single target melee dps (when not having aggro) years ago, but then other classes got buffed, the Assassin buff was poor and they lagged behind.

So atm it's Mechanic who can't use Poison Strikes anyway so why bother. Let's hope SSG fixes Measure the Foe someday. But still if someone happens to play and love Assassins and wants to do end game high-reaper, then by all means use Weakening Strikes it's a great debuff.

Oh and my math on Weakening Strikes shows (10 + Rogue Level/2)=(10 + 20/2)= 20 Melee Power Debuff

Qezuzu
07-21-2017, 02:45 PM
This is great but there is a small problem... Weakening Strikes works only against enemies marked with "Assassin's Mark."
Assassin's Mark is applied by Poison Strikes and all 3 Poison Strikes require a melee weapon. This means TA, Assassin or a melee build with at least 4 rogue levels.

I'm not aware of a melee rogue-splashed build that is worth bothering with at endgame. TA is a flavor build and Assassin is very strong, but has a problem in boss fights. He gains a huge boost to his damage against a single enemy, but most of it comes from Measure the Foe which requires you to stealth - wait 1 second - pop out of stealth. Or wait 5 seconds while in Stealth to gain max stacks (+30 MP) for 10 seconds. And after 10 seconds repeat...
Unless you can attack and stay in Stealth somehow, but still you must exit Stealth to gain the buff from Measure the Foe.

If they change Measure the Foe to not require Stealth then imo Assassin can be one of the best single target sustained DPS classes in the game. Equal to and perhaps stronger than Tempest. They used to be the best single target melee dps (when not having aggro) years ago, but then other classes got buffed, the Assassin buff was poor and they lagged behind.

So atm it's Mechanic who can't use Poison Strikes anyway so why bother. Let's hope SSG fixes Measure the Foe someday. But still if someone happens to play and love Assassins and wants to do end game high-reaper, then by all means use Weakening Strikes it's a great debuff.

Oh and my math on Weakening Strikes shows (10 + Rogue Level/2)=(10 + 20/2)= 20 Melee Power Debuff

Just noting another source of debuff that I never would have considered before remembering just how much damage -20% represents on a high-skull red name ( if -20 MP actually translates to -20% damage, that is.) And melee rogues have their problems in reaper but I wouldn't consider them "not worth bothering with," Acrobat has the capability to boost to 100% dodge with good uptime, and Assassin has the best insta-kill ability of any melee class. Plus, iirc sneak attack is not scaled down as much as other damage, so they have very strong single-target DPS regardless of MTF's annoying behavior.

And if people actually realize "hey, debuffing bosses is actually really helpful" then a -20 MP is a real asset they have over something like Tempest, which really only offers DPS to the party.

I mean, I harp on them a lot and want them to improve in reaper but that's mainly because they can't be played in reaper the way I'm used to (extensive use of sneaking.)

Phil7
07-21-2017, 03:48 PM
Just noting another source of debuff that I never would have considered before remembering just how much damage -20% represents on a high-skull red name ( if -20 MP actually translates to -20% damage, that is.) And melee rogues have their problems in reaper but I wouldn't consider them "not worth bothering with," Acrobat has the capability to boost to 100% dodge with good uptime, and Assassin has the best insta-kill ability of any melee class. Plus, iirc sneak attack is not scaled down as much as other damage, so they have very strong single-target DPS regardless of MTF's annoying behavior.

And if people actually realize "hey, debuffing bosses is actually really helpful" then a -20 MP is a real asset they have over something like Tempest, which really only offers DPS to the party.

I mean, I harp on them a lot and want them to improve in reaper but that's mainly because they can't be played in reaper the way I'm used to (extensive use of sneaking.)

Well the difference between a Tempest and an Assassin in a boss fight is not that huge, so yes thinking twice I agree with you to be honest. I would consider choosing an Assassin if it made my tank's life easier. I hope that after the epic reaper exp buff we can run some tests with guildies and see how well Debuffing performs. It can really help reviving dead builds and add some diversity to groups. I know a lot of people who love playing Assassins and I hope this may give them a reason to do so.

Mindos
07-21-2017, 07:22 PM
Mark of the Hunted from deepwood stalker lowers ability scores by 4 for 3 minutes.

http://ddowiki.com/images/Icon_Enhancement_Mark_of_the_Hunted.png
Activate: Expend a use of Wild Empathy. Your currently selected enemy receives -25% Fortification, -10 Armor Class, -10 Spell Resistance, and suffers a -4 penalty to all ability scores for 3 minutes. This effect also works on bosses and Raid bosses.

Doesnt do anything to PRR/MRR, but that -4 has got to do something.

Qezuzu
07-21-2017, 11:40 PM
Mark of the Hunted from deepwood stalker lowers ability scores by 4 for 3 minutes.

http://ddowiki.com/images/Icon_Enhancement_Mark_of_the_Hunted.png
Activate: Expend a use of Wild Empathy. Your currently selected enemy receives -25% Fortification, -10 Armor Class, -10 Spell Resistance, and suffers a -4 penalty to all ability scores for 3 minutes. This effect also works on bosses and Raid bosses.

Doesnt do anything to PRR/MRR, but that -4 has got to do something.

-4 stats is pretty good, that's -2 damage. Not massive, but noticeable.

Phil7
07-23-2017, 09:29 AM
small info update:
flat damage reduction on bosses is giving out some great results, a simple -30 damage can in some cases decrease the boss damage for more than 200.
The higher the scaling and the reaper skulls the higher the damage decrease!

I am also experimenting with ways to "free" the Healer from Divine Crusader. This means that Purification will now have to be applied from other party members using Interrogation and Purge the Wicked. This requires more group effort because the DPSers will now have to twist those in, but it allows the Healer to also play in Exalted Angel, thus increasing his spell DCs and helping stack Rebuke Foe faster on bosses. The healer can also twist Consecration + Sacred Ground + Crusade, because he has the highest Positive SP in the group and drop twists like Summer Smoke and Autumn Harvest which are very situational.

The healer can be a second insta-killer using Destruction, Implosion etc. and will best contribute as a Favored Soul. That is because of higher SP than Cleric and because FVS using Archon can build Endless Ardor stacks while being able to focus on healing instead of spamming light-spells. He can also drop Symbol of Weakness on bosses for a 3d6 STR penalty (max -9 damage) which is based on Necromancy DC.
The FVS can also buff with Inflame and debuff bosses using Shield of Condemnation & Crown of Retribution (transfer to the tank).
This is still a work in progress and the new Cleric pass might change this.

Some players I've spoken with have suggested adding a second caster to the group (Sorcerer) who can focus on CC/insta-kills and offer debuffs unique to the Sorcerer/Wizard spell book. My opinion on the matter is that the Sorcerer Debuffs will not contribute much to the boss fight (maximum -12 damage debuff), will add a second caster to the group thus lowering the overall DPS by a lot and also these specific debuffs are all seperate spells (4 spells) which the sorcerer will have to continuously renew. I believe it is not worth it and will only add more safety to the group (more CC, less boss damage), but will significantly hurt the group DPS.

*Big bad stamp of red text removed, it was a mistake to post it in the first place I'm sorry.

jakeelala
07-24-2017, 03:57 PM
people have been debuffing bosses since 2006 mate. The game moved to DPS for the last few years, so it's no surprise with reaper people are just starting to get back to considering it.

Trying to put some stamp on it is probably just going to get you called a lot of names and lacks any real upside. Starting a thread to consolidate knowledge on it and post your results isn't really grounds for any sort of ownership or recognition outside of people saying "cool thread thanks for posting". Not exactly sure what you're hoping to accomplish with your big red block of text. You must understand lots of us have been debuffing since reaper came out. Most people just dont post about it because they don't want SSG to immediately nerf the good debuffs since that is what they do.

Qezuzu
07-24-2017, 10:46 PM
people have been debuffing bosses since 2006 mate. The game moved to DPS for the last few years, so it's no surprise with reaper people are just starting to get back to considering it.

Trying to put some stamp on it is probably just going to get you called a lot of names and lacks any real upside. Starting a thread to consolidate knowledge on it and post your results isn't really grounds for any sort of ownership or recognition outside of people saying "cool thread thanks for posting". Not exactly sure what you're hoping to accomplish with your big red block of text. You must understand lots of us have been debuffing since reaper came out. Most people just dont post about it because they don't want SSG to immediately nerf the good debuffs since that is what they do.

Gosh where can I learn to be as cool as you.

jakeelala
07-24-2017, 11:33 PM
Gosh where can I learn to be as cool as you.

You can start by deleting posts like this before hitting submit

Phil7
07-25-2017, 01:27 PM
thanks for the little "spank" Jakeelala, I guess I'm still the same immature ***** as I was 2 years ago :P
Red has absolutely nothing to do with attention on a wall of text or anything of the sort. I just like red and I almost always use only red in my posts to distinguish specific words/sentences from others.
After a lengthy conversation with a friend last night I've come to a conclusion and I agree with you, especially on the "few last years DPS only meta". You're right about others branching out towards different builds since reaper. It shold have crossed my mind... after all there are thousand of players in DDO.

Things like that happen when one gets too cocky and there is no1 to put a wall and stop that person. Or some1 to show that person that they can do the same or even better. So yes thanks for being the second person to put that wall in my face.
Unfortunately two other factors led me in taking such an action along with negative emotions, the first being very similar to something that you've also recently experienced, according to one of your posts. A rejection and partly ignorance from SSG specifically on the aspect of class and game balance, something in which I've always been highly interested. The second was a player who used words exclusively copied from my first post, word for word. At first my reaction was that of great annoyance but after thinking about it again, I've come to realize that it is not really a bad thing. Someone simply read the post, learned something out of it and showed his interest by spreading it further.

Now that I got this off my chest I'd like to give my opinion on something specific, which is also what JOTMON wrote on the first page and there is a reason why I didn't reply to him.
"Most people just dont post about it because they don't want SSG to immediately nerf the good debuffs since that is what they do."
Yes I agree, I know that this has been a case many times before and I've also used a similar sentence 2 weeks ago, on one of my comments regarding the Soul Eater Warlock and a high percentage of veteran players running racials in R3+ as Soul Eater Warlocks, instead of ES warlocks which was the assumption of a less experienced player.

But the reason I made this post is not to show SSG what is strong and meta and laugh maliciously as they nerf it down to the ground. No I'm not that kind of person who gets high from seeing others cry and protest on the forums. I posted this in order to show others that there is much more diversity in groups than a lot of players think. I posted this to show SSG that they have made something new and great with Reaper and with the SE warlock and they can learn from it in their Wizard and Sorcerer pass. I also posted this hoping that end game players like myself might make a use out of it and have an easier time in R10.
But if the result is SSG nerfing it out of orbit and into uselessness then I'm sorry for this company and It would be sad to see them killing the few unique aspects that differentiate classes. I was hoping that SSG would see this and make some changes to Destinies like Fatesinger, Shadowdancer and GoF and Wizards/Sorcs, specifically on the aspect of unique buffing-debuffing and less on the aspect of DPS equality.

Also I've got a small update regarding Artificers, which is still in testing tho as this is my very first and last pure Artificer life :D

LordOfSorrows
07-30-2017, 05:49 AM
I scanned through the posting nice theory work. Another buff I do not believe I saw mentioned which is and old school trick from when cap was 20 on harry is Mortican's Disjunction. It can remove buffs they have on the boss. 3 hits on the boss and there is usually a noticable difference in dmg.

Phil7
07-30-2017, 08:16 AM
I am now capped at level 20 on my pure Artificer life and before I TR into a melee FVS life I'd like to leave my thoughts here on Arti, its contribution to groups, the one promising debuff that the class has (Prismatic Strike) and its overall "ranking" as a DPS/ultility class. Unfortunately I will not play Artificer in epics, because right now Gnomes are on a 35% sale and I really need to gather a few more DDO points to buy the race... that's why heroics again.

Playing Artificer was not that fun for me, it is not my cup of tea and I really dislike ranged pew-pew combat in DDO and classes with low Spell Points. But that doesn't mean Artis are weak or a bad class... not at all. In low heroics when u get 2x Blast Rods you can zerg R1 so fast it feels like a Sorcerer and after level 15 when u get Imp.Precise Shot you respec to T5 Battle Engineer, open Fusilade and just laugh at the dead waves of mobs from your Vorpal repeater.

The DPS from the class outside of Fusilade is pretty low compared to Mechanics and Monkchers and the base damage of the Repeater is terrible. But the trick to Repeaters is not focusing on base dmg and RP, but rather on on-hit effects, procs and attack speed. Will pure Artificer ever be the best-at ranged DPS class in the game? No, I really doubt it, but perhaps a Rogue/Arti/Ranger split using Fusilade and T5 DWS enhancements for 25 stacks of Archer's Focus in LD might be close to the best ranged sustained-DPS. The speed at which I could cap Archer's Focus on boss fights using Fusilade was very impressive, but I will leave this to dedicated ranged players to test and theorycraft on. Ranged combat is not my thing and I'm not interested in testing something which I dislike playing.. I'm just leaving a little hint here that's all :)

Anyway for a ranking comparison of Artificer to other ranged DPS builds, I'd say Artis have lower DPS, but offer a lot of ultility from Buffs/Burst-Spells/traps and if built properly, very strong trash CC. Using gear like LGS Ice, tendon slice, Slay-Living, Vorpal and Shiradi-Slow while hitting Fusilade can do wonders on properly lined-up trash. And don't forget the class has one of the best buffs in game, Radiant Forcefield which u can use on ur melees/tank and Weapon buffs to bypass DR for every situation.
For those asking about a strong and fun pure Arti build Lvl 1-30 I'd say hybrid build using LD, Scion of Air, Reign (twist), max Electric SP and using LGS Lightning for the procs during Fusilade. Artificers are very versatile so you can always change between full-DPS, nuker or hybrid.

Now Artificer is also the only class who can cast Prismatic Strike. It uses your Evocation school and the DC is similar to that of Blasting Rod. Appart from the Knockdown and Daze it can also debuff mobs and bosses (tested), resulting in a -25% melee/ranged damage debuff which is also Will-save based! This is very strong and very promising on a maxed-evocation build in combination with Shadows Upon You and further boss debuffing. The duration is 10 to 22 seconds (seems to be random) and the effect can not be reapplied before expiring. That means in theory the Artificer would have to concentrate on reapplying the debuff right after expiration. The only thing that needs further testing is whether this stacks with Monk's "Knock on the Sky" or not.

If it does, then we can achieve a -25% boss dmg from Arti + (-20%) dmg from Monk + (-40 MP/RP) from Soul Eater and Assassin + (-34 max.) damage debuff from Purification and Symbol of Weakness. More from various Wiz/Sorc debuffs and auras, but forget about that.

I'd like to point out that my assumption of -20MP/RP = -20% damage is wrong. The formula for negative MP/RP is different than that of the positive value and as such -20 MP on a target with a starting 0 MP translates to: 100 / (100 - -20) = 100/120, or 0.83, meaning the boss deals 83% of his original damage or 17% less damage. Thanks wiki!
This means that the MP/RP debuff gives different results on each target although the difference is not very significant. What happens if a target has 15 base MP and we debuff it to -5? Do we then have to account for both formulas? This needs more testing or an answer from the devs. Updated the 1st post aswell.

Anyway that'd be it for Artificers, I will definitely enlist the class in my starting post and I hope this helps a few Artificers at cap who need more love. The support which the class offers to tanks and melees is incredible, hopefully we can now R10 at end game without the tank having to jump around like a bunny during boss-fights and the melees getting 1 shotted from boss Cleaves.

Mindos
07-30-2017, 10:28 AM
So prayer is actually a debuff as well! (thanks wright priests)

It's only -1 to attack, damage, saves, and skill checks, but it's still something. I wonder thought with the scaling that you are seeing, is -1 to weapon damage really -1 or....

http://ddowiki.com/page/Prayer

gummolo
07-30-2017, 10:28 AM
Thanks to the OP and all the people who had contributed so far will contribute in the future. Very informative and propositive thread. Keep the good work on and not pay attention to the jelous people

Wizza
08-04-2017, 06:23 PM
Nice thread, very interesting.

Saekee
08-04-2017, 07:39 PM
Didn't see assassin's trick, level 6 core, added; affects fortification and sneak attack immunity.

Note: this can be activated while holding a ranged weapon, even though it is in the assassin melee tree.

Weaken undead on Mournlode chain & that one xbow
Weaken construct on Blasting chime

Shadow Mastery: final core of shadowdancer. Procs on vorpal so mechanics can maintain it easily

Phil7
08-14-2017, 12:29 PM
*Updated text visibility and content.
Also added that the debuffing aspect of Bound & Grim Fate is not related to the spell's Will Save. The Will Save is only related to the "immobilization" effect.

Phil7
08-25-2017, 02:44 PM
So I finally added Fatesinger to the group composition along with the Bard. Time to make some use out of Grim Fate :D
I'm so glad in theory it seems to work brilliantly! The group DPS that the class provides through buffs is really significant and I hope this might make Fatesinger a bit more popular.
Most changes are on the HEALER topic, along with a few other changes and an improvement in text visibility.

I've also capped my pure Druid-caster life and I've tested some interesting stuff, will provide more info later... might also include Druids in the Healer topic.

Gilga1
09-06-2017, 09:22 AM
Thank you for this thread! Really interesting.

Some quick considerations on tanks (the role I played on r10 endgame).
Pure fighter Dwarf is not competitive imho.
Best is Fighter14/Pally5 (Tier 5 Harbored by Light)/Wiz1 (+10% AC).
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/485081-Ath-s-Reaper-Tank-Build-Thread
Stalwart and Sacred Defender enhancements stacks (Armor Mastery, Shield Mastery, Reinforced defense…)
Light the Dark is huge! With good positive spellpower and hamp you can self heal even on r10 and fill the whole party.

I played a Wiz 11 Pally 5 Fighter 4 split (more utilities, Tenser and Displacement always up, Arcane Barrier from EK). You can find some video footage on the Achievements board (I had very few rxp at that time…):
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/484299-Slavers-part-2-R10-6-man-amp-video
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/484371-Slavers-part-3-6man-R10-world-first!

With the Cleric and FVS revamp I think the new best tank could be Cleric14/pally5/Wiz1 (Protection domain, Radiant forcefield SLA) or FVS 14/Pally5/Wiz1.

Iriesys
10-16-2018, 11:23 AM
will you update this guide now with the new mod and coming changes to Bard?