Stone of Change - Eldritch Rituals Cookbook

[Rallie]

Well, here's what I got after 2 upgrades:

1st Upgrade: Positive, Opposition, Material
2nd Upgrade: Positive, Escalation, Ethereal
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj175/gai-jin365/Gloves.jpg

[ghale]

Great Commander Green Steel Short Sword

Tier 1 - Fire, Tier 2 - Positive = Flaming, Fire Affinity, Good Burst, Radiance + Sunburst Clickie x2

I would post a screen shot if I could figure out how. This is my first post (What a noob!)

Accepting recommendations for interesting tier 3 upgrade.

I would try Fire again for Tier 3 as that looks to be what will end up giving the greatest chance for the special Tier 3 effects that are still unknown.

[UtherSRG]

My EEN Goggles:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3147/2283789128_059baa97a6_o.jpg

My EEN//EEF Goggles:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2343/2283794438_23988b0f56_o.jpg

[EspyLacopa]

Does the order of the first two matter when getting the first combo?

[The_Cataclysm]

No, order for the tier 2 bonus doesn't matter.

[~sturm097]

I made these as a replacement for the spec ops. I don't need true rez since I can use scrolls, but I do miss the extra +2 to UMD. Still, these are great goggles for a ranger or paladin.

1st upgrade: Air Escalation Ethereal
2nd upgrade: Earth Escalation Material

= super goggles!!!

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb61/BobMartin9/goggles.jpg

Wiz 6, +15 hp, cha skills +1, con skills +2, balance +10, +3 deflection to AC, +3 resist to saves

I did almost the same thing for my ranger, only I went Earth then Air, to get bonuses to Wis Skills and Dex Skills..... what are you thinking about doin for your 3rd tier? I was originally going to go positive for the Supreme Regen, but now I'm not sure what I'm gonna do.

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n174/sturm097/goggles1.jpg

[Ilandrya]

I thought it might be a good idea for those of us who are trying to come up with the third upgrade "bonus" aspect effects to list what we intend on trying. That way, even though we may not have yet attained it, others can know what is in the works. While everyone should craft as they see fit, for those self sacrificing pioneers that are trying to come up with new combinations, this might help them to avoid duplicating things others already have in the works that they may not know about.

For my part, my first item will be an accessory and will go:

material/opposition/negative all the way, and I should get the negative/negative/negative bonus from it which seems to be consistant with the successful triple focus outcomes we've gotten so far. It will be a bit though, but thats what I have in the works first.

My second item will be an accessory and will go:

material/opposition/positive
ethereal/escalation and either positive or air
ethereal/escalation and either positive or air

I'm leaning towards air, which if my theory is correct will result in lighnting I & II. Again, it will be a bit.

When I have both of these two items, I intend on trying various methods to remove the taint on at least one of them.

[Erinyes]

I think Ilandrya has a good idea. Of course, nothing in stone, but it might help people with ideas and such.

The morningstar I'm working on will go:

Tier I : Earth/Escalation/Ethereal - +6 Wisdom
Tier II: Water/Escalation/Ethereal - +1 Wisdom (Insight), Aspect of Ooze
Tier III: Earth/Escalation/Ethereal - +2 Wisdom (Insight) - Hoping for Ooze II with this comb perhaps?

I should have Tier 2 done this weekend (provided the elusive shard of power graces me with its loving presence! :D), which is nothing new, but I'll post screens as it goes.

I aslo have a pair of goggles in progress:

Tier I: Earth/Escalation/Ethereal - done
Tier II: Earth/Escalation/Ethereal - done
Tier III: Earth/Escalation/Ethereal - not done :)

I'll post a screen of the goggles when I get home from work tonight. And by all means, if someone else wants to get their Ooze on, go for it. :D Tier III will no doubt take me a while.

[~sturm097]

The goggles that my ranger Khalad has are:

Tier I: Earth/Escalation/Ethereal - Wiz VI
Tier II: Air/Escalation/Material - +15 HP, Balance of Land and Sky
Tier III: Water/Material/Escalation - +20 HP, ??

Going to take a little while, only have 3 tier 3 ingrediants atm

My cleric Shan is going to be going:

Tier I - Fire/Escalation/Ethereal - Wiz VI
Tier II - Water/Escalation/Ethereal - +50 SP, Tempered
Tier III - ??/Escalation/Ethereal - (Going for +100 SP, just not sure which Element to choose yet)

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

The DDO Wiki (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Crafting)has been updated!

Added both views to Altar of Devastation Page (Sorted by Gem/Essence, and by Element)
Confirmed Earth/Earth/Positive (Weapon) as no effect
Re-wrote the Crafting Primer... I'm still not happy with it, but it's getting better.
Started to re-vamp the Tier 1 Ingredients Pages to make them easier to read.

Thanks for everyone's contributions!

[SneakThief]

Great Commander Green Steel Short Sword

Tier 1 - Fire, Tier 2 - Positive = Flaming, Fire Affinity, Good Burst, Radiance + Sunburst Clickie x2

I would post a screen shot if I could figure out how. This is my first post (What a noob!)

Accepting recommendations for interesting tier 3 upgrade.

Most people seem to be liking the 4 AC over the XXX Blast. Since you have Radiance (Fire/Pos), I would suggest trying either Fire/Etheral/Escalation or Positivie/Etheral/Escalation.

[UtherSRG]

I thought it might be a good idea for those of us who are trying to come up with the third upgrade "bonus" aspect effects to list what we intend on trying. That way, even though we may not have yet attained it, others can know what is in the works. While everyone should craft as they see fit, for those self sacrificing pioneers that are trying to come up with new combinations, this might help them to avoid duplicating things others already have in the works that they may not know about.

For my part, my first item will be an accessory and will go:

material/opposition/negative all the way, and I should get the negative/negative/negative bonus from it which seems to be consistant with the successful triple focus outcomes we've gotten so far. It will be a bit though, but thats what I have in the works first.

My second item will be an accessory and will go:

material/opposition/positive
ethereal/escalation and either positive or air
ethereal/escalation and either positive or air

I'm leaning towards air, which if my theory is correct will result in lighnting I & II. Again, it will be a bit.

When I have both of these two items, I intend on trying various methods to remove the taint on at least one of them.

Yup... I did that 9 pages ago. Here's a repost with updates:


Sceptre

EEF: +6 INT (done)
EEN: +1 INT (done)
EEF/EEN: +2 INT (need ingredients and shard)


Goggles

EEN: Wiz VI, Int Skills +1 (done)
EEF: +50 sp, Int Skills +2 (done)
EEN/EEF: +100 sp, Int Skills +3 (need ingredients and shard)


Bracers

MON: Blindness & Disease Immunity
MON: Proof Against Poison & Fear Immunity
MON: Deathblock/Deathward?


Boots - if the FNN Sceptre works out to be a good combo, I'll do EPP. If the NFN goggles have a good combo, I'll do PEP. Otherwise I'll do EEP, PPE, EPE, or PEE.

ME[PE]: +10 hp, +1 CON skills
ME[PE]: +15 hp, +2 CON skills
ME[PE]: +20 hp, +3 CON skills


For my Bard:

Helm

EEP: Wiz VI, +1 Cha Skills (done)
EEP: +50 sp, +2 Cha Skills (done)
EEP: +100 sp, +3 Cha Skills (need ingredients and shard)


For my Cleric:
*Goggles

EEN: Wiz VI, +1 Int Skills (done)
EEP: +50 sp, +2 Cha Skills (done)
+6 WIS, etc
EEN/EEP: Whatever someone finds is the bonus for Existential Stalemate


I'm starting to think that the "difficult" 3rd tier upgrade requires two imbued shards of supreme power, one to match the first upgrade and the 2nd to match the 2nd upgrade.

[ArkoHighStar]

Tolero has just confirmed how to remove taint of shavarath

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1578811&postcount=13

[Erinyes]

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa201/erineanderson/earthearthgoggles.jpg

Here's a shot of my goggles so far.

Tier I: EEE
Tier II: EEE again

[UtherSRG]

Here's a shot of my goggles so far.

Tier I: EEE
Tier II: EEE again

EEEEEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!! ;)

[alchilito]

does anyone know what the stacked effect for negative + negative + negative is ?

[Mad_Bombardier]

does anyone know what the stacked effect for negative + negative + negative is ?Not yet. Someone was working on it, but has not reported back.

[EspyLacopa]

does anyone know what the stacked effect for negative + negative + negative is ?
It shall. . .

[billy voice]
DESTROY US ALL!
[/billy voice]

[Ilandrya]

does anyone know what the stacked effect for negative + negative + negative is ?

Someone reported that it gave slay living guard on an accessory, which would, if in keeping with what we've seen so far, be a chance to slay living when you are hit by an enemy. I haven't seen a screenshot though. IMHO, nicer than the greater disruption guard since there are more living mobs than dead ones in game. However, there are no stats given... no information on what causes them to occur, if they have saves, etc.

[alchilito]

Someone reported that it gave slay living guard on an accessory, which would, if in keeping with what we've seen so far, be a chance to slay living when you are hit by an enemy. I haven't seen a screenshot though. IMHO, nicer than the greater disruption guard since there are more living mobs than dead ones in game. However, there are no stats given... no information on what causes them to occur, if they have saves, etc.

that would be awesome I hope you are right Ila Im going Ethereal-Escalation-Negative on my wf wiz

[Angelus_dead]

Started to re-vamp the Tier 1 Ingredients Pages to make them easier to read.
You and your wiki are using the phrase "tier 1" to mean something different from what the DDO developers and players mean by it.

[Ironwind]

Can anyone confirm that:
Altar of Invasion - EDM - Acid
combined with:
Altar of Subjugation - EDM - Acid Burst
will produce a weapon that will give
+2d6 acid per hit?

Thanks in advance.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Can anyone confirm that:
Altar of Invasion - EDM - Acid
combined with:
Altar of Subjugation - EDM - Acid Burst
will produce a weapon that will give
+2d6 acid per hit?

Thanks in advance.


That is indeed the current situation. This post (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1557839&postcount=65)confirms for frost. I can personally confirm (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1571795#post1571795)that I get 1d6 acid damage on every hit from a 2nd tier acid burst upgrade as well. The only thing that doesn't work 'correctly' is that the 2nd tier positive upgrade does not give good damage on every hit.

Garth

[Tomalon]

Ok the boards show that this combo is UNconfirmed so here it is.
Tier 1 FDM
Tier 2 FDM
Planning FOE on 3rd tier, will post when done.
Sry if this in fact has been confirmed but the spreadsheets shows it hasn't

http://eternalwrath.guildlaunch.com/guild/library/gallery/4447/khopesh4508.jpg

[Perceval]

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa201/erineanderson/earthearthgoggles.jpg

Here's a shot of my goggles so far.

Tier I: EEE
Tier II: EEE again

**** YOU, Thos are my google... I want them back

[Erinyes]

**** YOU, Thos are my google... I want them back

:eek:

[Kargon]

So kargon add Fire at end of pos/neg/fire necklamace, get nothing specimial.
Small: Materimial/Escalatimion/Posimitive
Medium: Materimial/Opposimitimion/Negamative
Large: Materimial/Escalatimion/Fire (NEW!: +20 hp, +3 dex skill)

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y68/FusionBlast/PosNegFireNeck.jpg

So, look like Pos/Neg/Elemament are not way to go, although maybe certain elemaments would have worked, or maybe kargon needed to keep all 3 escalatimion or somemathing.

[nbhs275]

So kargon add Fire at end of pos/neg/fire necklamace, get nothing specimial.
Small: Materimial/Escalatimion/Posimitive
Medium: Materimial/Opposimitimion/Negamative
Large: Materimial/Escalatimion/Fire (NEW!: +20 hp, +3 dex skill)

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y68/FusionBlast/PosNegFireNeck.jpg

So, look like Pos/Neg/Elemament are not way to go, although maybe certain elemaments would have worked, or maybe kargon needed to keep all 3 escalatimion or somemathing.

check your combat log kargon, maybe the effect isnt being shown on the item, like was happening with E:E:E equipment.

[apious1]

Here is a screen shot of the Supreme Tyrant Green Steel Longsword of Air:
http://FileLibrary.MYAASite.Com/Content/0/93/26324308.jpg

Tier 1: Air + Escalation + Ethereal
Tier 2: Air + Escalation + Ethereal
Tier 3: Air + Escalation + Ethereal

[MysticTheurge]

Here is a screen shot of the Supreme Tyrant Green Steel Longsword of Air:
http://FileLibrary.MYAASite.Com/Content/0/93/26324308.jpg

Tier 1: Air + Escalation + Ethereal
Tier 2: Air + Escalation + Ethereal
Tier 3: Air + Escalation + Ethereal

ZOMG!!!

Your neck is disturbingly thin!

(I'm not really sure I know what that means.... :confused:)


On a more serious note: Air Guard looks interesting.

[Shima-ra]

Air guard looks kinda cool.
How fast are you going when your hasted up with it?

[Riggs]

Air guard sounds nice...however it seems odd to have a guard effect on a weapon. Maybe because it was all three ethereal? I was kinda hoping for some kind of massive air strike on a crit. But free hasting and knockdown when hit maybe its pretty nice too.

[Vienemen]

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s21/dlvk/Cut.jpg

Ethereal, Escalation, Negative x3

(Party): [Party] Mavnomo: (Combat): You attempt to save versus slay living. You roll a 14 (+15): save failure!

(Party): [Party] Mavnomo: (Combat): You attempt to save versus slay living. You roll a 9 (+21): save!

DC 30 Slay Living as the spell. Roughly 5% chance of proc.

[digz]

I'm doing the same on goggles but still collecting tier3 stuff.

Now im curious what all air will do on goggles since Air guard is on weapon :confused:

[MysticTheurge]

I'm doing the same on goggles but still collecting tier3 stuff.

Now im curious what all air will do on goggles since Air guard is on weapon :confused:

It'll have a chance to proc any time you hit something with your goggles. :eek:

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

I'm becoming more and more convinced, as others are, that the 3rd tier special effect has something to do with the gems that you use when creating your items.

I don't believe we have seen a special 3rd tier effect for an item that has had mixed gems. In addition, the type of gem (dominion, escalation or opposition) seems to have an effect on the type of special that is bestowed at tier 3. Example: going escalation three times on a weapon gave an 'on you hitting something' effect while going escalation three times on an item gave a 'on being hit' effect. Equally going dominion on a weapon (e.g. assio's LS) gave a 'on you hitting something' effect.

I propose a theory that escalation and dominion on a weapon will give a 'on hitting something' 3rd tier effect, while 'opposition' will give a 'being hit' effect on the same weapon. Equally escalation or dominion on an item will give a 'on being hit' effect while opposition on an item will give a (rather useless?) 'on hitting with my goggles' effect that MT talks about. Equally, I propse that if you mix gems then you will not get any 3rd tier effect. I hope I'm wrong.

Tomorrow I'm going to try and note down all the gems that have been used in all the 3rd tier bonus successes and failures, and see if there's a pattern there... I expect I'll find inconsistences in the light of day that disprove my theory.

Garth

edit: I'm already finding inconsistencies with my theory! but I'm leaving the post up in the hope it might spark some other, better, ideas.

[Ilandrya]

Air guard sounds nice...however it seems odd to have a guard effect on a weapon. Maybe because it was all three ethereal? I was kinda hoping for some kind of massive air strike on a crit. But free hasting and knockdown when hit maybe its pretty nice too.

Well, if I remember correctly, there was a e,e,e triplet done on a morningstar which had earthgrab, rather than earth guard, so I don't think it's because of the fact the air guard used ethereal that it ended up with guard.

I remember earlier that someone had created an earth,earth,earth set of goggles which didn't have the effect printed on them although a dev said they should have had one, and he was going to look into it. It's possible this was a mix up and actually was the description that should have gone on the accessory version of air/air/air. The only real difference I'm seeing between the weapon and accessory versions of the same triple focuses is that weapons tend to be on attack, and accessories tend to be called guard and be when you are successfully hit. I'm going to bet that the descriptions got switched on air accessories/weapons.... wonder if the programming was also.

[Angelus_dead]

The only real difference I'm seeing between the weapon and accessory versions of the same triple focuses is that weapons tend to be on attack, and accessories tend to be called guard and be when you are successfully hit.
That is exactly not what is happening. We just saw two weapons made with Guard on them. That is what lead to the theory that the essences used at lower level influence the offense/defense nature of the 3rd-tier combo effect.

Weapon: Acid + Acid Burst + AC = Earthgrab (on hit)
Weapon: Cha(air) + Cha(air) + Cha(air) = Air Guard
Weapon: Int(neg) + Int(neg) + Int(neg) = Slay Guard
Weapon: Frost + Frost Burst + Str(wat) = Crushing Wave (on hit)

To learn more about what's really going on, we need someone to make a Shock Shocking Burst Shock blast weapon. That will either produce Air Guard, or it might give an on-hit knockdown, in the pattern of Earthgrab and Crushing Wave.

[Ilandrya]

I mentioned my hypothesis earlier, but in case some missed it or it wasn't clear, I'm fairly certain:

focus a (affinity) + focus b = aspect 1
focus a (affinity) + focus c = aspect 2

This explains why earth,earth,earth gets earthgrab on a weapon, because you have aspect of earth, aspect of earth
on an accessory, you would get earth guard

I expect that

earth,fire,fire results in aspect of magma, and aspect of magma (as would fire,earth,earth)

I'm fairly certain that two of the same aspect (balances not included) results in the second "bonus" effect. I strongly suspect only focuses have a bearing on it. I'm also leaning toward the possibility that opposite elements ("balanced" elementals, not energies) will get the "special" effect Eladrin was hinting at when combined with a third elemental of a different type.

Note: It is possible that it's focus a (affinity) + focus b = aspect and focus b + focus c = aspect, (again, not including the balanced combinations of pos/neg earth/air and water/fire either forward or backward) which would mean that

fire,earth,fire or earth,fire,earth instead of my earlier example equate to aspect of magma and aspect of magma

I won't be certain of which it is until I see an example of either of the following two, where a and b are both differing, non balance creating, elements, not energies

focus a, focus b, focus b or
focus a, focus b, focus a

I suspect however that it's the first because Eladrin hinted at things being a little tricky and that there was something we hadn't discovered... the latter example would be too easy. Eladrin also said it was possible to have magma "I" and magma "II" on one item.

[Ilandrya]

That is exactly not what is happening. We just saw two weapons made with Guard on them. That is what lead to the theory that the essences used at lower level influence the offense/defense nature of the 3rd-tier combo effect.

Weapon: Acid + Acid Burst + AC = Earthgrab (on hit)
Weapon: Cha(air) + Cha(air) + Cha(air) = Air Guard
Weapon: Int(neg) + Int(neg) + Int(neg) = Slay Guard
Weapon: Frost + Frost Burst + Str(wat) = Crushing Wave (on hit)

To learn more about what's really going on, we need someone to make a Shock Shocking Burst Shock blast weapon. That will either produce Air Guard, or it might give an on-hit knockdown, in the pattern of Earthgrab and Crushing Wave.

Um, the scepter you are referring to was not slay living guard, it was slay living... the offensive form. Please read my earlier post again about the fact that both the air item recently posted and the earth morningstar both used E,E all the way through... the only difference was one used air, the other earth, but the earth morningstar still has the offensive form. Thats why I think the air is a typo... and it wouldn't be the first one.

[Turial]

I think that the air guard form might be correct on the weapon. If you read the last bit in the description of it: or speeding up the wearer with rushing winds. It seems like a nice combat ability. Now I'm torn between PPP and AAA for my sp goggles.

[Tanka]

I think that the air guard form might be correct on the weapon. If you read the last bit in the description of it: or speeding up the wearer with rushing winds. It seems like a nice combat ability. Now I'm torn between PPP and AAA for my sp goggles.
If you get a Cleansing item you can make another piece of gear with AAA for the ability.

Granted, that may or may not be a big if. We'll see.

[Agarwaen]

So, look like Pos/Neg/Elemament are not way to go, although maybe certain elemaments would have worked, or maybe kargon needed to keep all 3 escalatimion or somemathing.

Argh. Phooey I say. I'm pretty sure that means my goggles won't be too hot either, although I will finish them on the off chance a different element or different Gem/Essence combo will work. For the first two upgrades my goggles have:

Small: Neg/Esc/Mat
Medium: Pos/Esc/Eth

Large will be Air/Esc/Eth. So the only difference between my goggles and your necklamace...erm necklace...will be air vs. fire, escalation gem throughout, and mixed essences. Highly doubtful they will manifest anything I'm thinking. In order to see the "full potential" of the stalemate manifest itself, I'm now leaning toward using the same focus that was used at tier 1 for tier 3 (eg Neg/Pos/Neg or Pos/Neg/Pos). The other combo I would love to see tried goes back to the gems and essences. Would be nice to see someone craft a stalemate item/weapon that uses each of the gems and each of the essences.

I'm probably completely over-reaching here, but I would lean toward saving the Opposition gem for the final upgrade, just because the concept of opposition seems to go well with that of existential stalemate.

One other thought regarding stalemate: I wonder if its full potential can only be unlocked on a weapon, and not on an item. I found it most curious that a stalemate weapon gets +6 wisdom and an item only +4.

[Betz]

Ok this is wierd.


Have added 10% healing amplification to a morningstar and when I heal myself I take 20hp of damage


true neutral cleric....


anyone else seen this?


http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-8/814527/morningstar.jpg

[Riggs]

Dev posted that the healing amp is bugged, giving a negative rather than a positive (so if you had 100% say - dead on a heal heh)

The air one is disappointing because I was really hoping for a thunderclap, or whirlwind on a hit. Like a greater soundburst, 100 damage and stun say.

It will depend on whether the air speed stacks with haste, and if the enemy knockdown is good enough to keep them down more than 3 seconds. If it doesnt stack with haste, then its a waste. Slay living on getting hit is a lot more powerful than knocking something down for a few seconds - so it better be a darn good knockdown or air will be really weak.

The element guards so far seem incredibly weak compared to positive/negative. d8 guard on tier 3? compared to slay living or greater disruption? I would expect a flesh to stone effect, or better yet 8-10 dr on a tier 3 earth item, not a d8 damage to something that has 1000 hit points. Frost and fire should be giving maybe cold/fireshield effects, and air if only knockdown, should be landing fairly often - simliar to air elementals.

I would submit that unless there are more hidden effects that are just not in the descriptions, that the next update really needs to modify the elemental tier 3 guard effects. Killing a pit fiend over a dozen times in part 4 for the chance to add a d8 guard damage is really, really weak.

[Turial]

Ok this is wierd.


Have added 10% healing amplification to a morningstar and when I heal myself I take 20hp of damage


true neutral cleric....


anyone else seen this?


http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-8/814527/morningstar.jpg
Kargon reported this and E came on and explained that they put a (-) in for a (+) and that it will be fixed in 6.1. In the mean time wanna see if harm will actually heal you a little with the items on?

[Snoggy]

If you get a Cleansing item you can make another piece of gear with AAA for the ability.

I had a strange idea last night when thinking about trying to find the "Magma II" effect ...

What if you get that extra effect from equipping multiple greensteel items?

So like one weapon and one pair of goggles, made a specific way, end up giving you a bonus effect?

Or two items (which then gives a reason for having to cleanse them to wear them?) ...

I don't know, it just occured to me that might be how you get another secret/hidden effect ... kind of like an armor "set" bonus in a different MMORPG.

[Betz]

cant harm self apart from in pvp i suppose.


so it might look a little strange, harmed for sa 300hp, "you benifit from ****'s harm... etc"

lol,

okies good to know its only a temp thing, was plannig on 10% healing, +2 ac, +2 cha and greater distruption for my clerics melee weapon/undead killer

[~Inotna]

I had a strange idea last night when thinking about trying to find the "Magma II" effect ...

What if you get that extra effect from equipping multiple greensteel items?

So like one weapon and one pair of goggles, made a specific way, end up giving you a bonus effect?

Or two items (which then gives a reason for having to cleanse them to wear them?) ...

I don't know, it just occured to me that might be how you get another secret/hidden effect ... kind of like an armor "set" bonus in a different MMORPG.


That an interesting theory... So maybe there are sets of items that compliment and effect each other... very interesting! Keep us updated:o

[mrtreats]

I had a strange idea last night when thinking about trying to find the "Magma II" effect ...

What if you get that extra effect from equipping multiple greensteel items?

So like one weapon and one pair of goggles, made a specific way, end up giving you a bonus effect?

Or two items (which then gives a reason for having to cleanse them to wear them?) ...

I don't know, it just occured to me that might be how you get another secret/hidden effect ... kind of like an armor "set" bonus in a different MMORPG.

that would make no sence since the weapon would not CHANGE effects it would be loke them other MMOs and tell you if worn with x you get y

[Aesop]

that would make no sence since the weapon would not CHANGE effects it would be loke them other MMOs and tell you if worn with x you get y

It would be like wearing Armor Sets... which do exist in DnD.

The ones I'm familiar with are from the Complete Champion

I'm particularly fond of The Garb of the Vagabond set


Its not a bad design... I'm not surethe Devs took it to that level but they may have surprized me

Aesop

[EspyLacopa]

It would be like wearing Armor Sets... which do exist in DnD.

The ones I'm familiar with are from the Complete Champion

I'm particularly fond of The Garb of the Vagabond set


Its not a bad design... I'm not surethe Devs took it to that level but they may have surprized me

Aesop

Or a classic combo:
Belt of Giant Strength: +4-6 Strength
Gauntlets of Ogre Power: +2 Strength
Hammer of Thunderbolts: +3 Large returning warhammer that deals 4d6 points of damage on any hit

Bonus if all three worn: Hammer gains +5 Enhancement bonus, Str bonus from Gloves and Belt stack, Hammer attains Giant Slaying (hit a giant, DC20 fort save or giant dies)

[apious1]

I think that the air guard form might be correct on the weapon. If you read the last bit in the description of it: or speeding up the wearer with rushing winds. It seems like a nice combat ability. Now I'm torn between PPP and AAA for my sp goggles.

I did test the Air Guard effect in PVP and it does produce a knock-down effect on the person attacking you but I did NOT receive any kind of haste effect. It may be bugged, but it is too early to tell. And, no I was not hasted when I tested it.

[Borror0]

It would be like wearing Armor Sets... which do exist in DnD.

I think he meant that they would show it on the item's decription like in any other MMO.

[Gormenghast]

It's interesting to take note, especially for clerics like myself, that you can do 2 upgrades resulting in the Existential Stalemate sub ability from Pos/Neg and in doing so recieve 2 stats at a +6. I did this to recieve +6 con, +6 wisdom and +2 ac with +10 haggle and +10 dip just with 2 upgrades.

edit: talking about a weapon of course

[MysticTheurge]

I did test the Air Guard effect in PVP and it does produce a knock-down effect on the person attacking you but I did NOT receive any kind of haste effect. It may be bugged, but it is too early to tell. And, no I was not hasted when I tested it.

I think it's probably relevant the description says one or the other of those things will happen.

[Tomalon]

It's interesting to take note, especially for clerics like myself, that you can do 2 upgrades resulting in the Existential Stalemate sub ability from Pos/Neg and in doing so recieve 2 stats at a +6. I did this to recieve +6 con, +6 wisdom and +2 ac with +10 haggle and +10 dip just with 2 upgrades.

edit: talking about a weapon of course


Please post a pic of this i would love to see it.

[Tomalon]

that was odd the same post posted twice

[Gormenghast]

Please post a pic of this i would love to see it.


http://www.imagedump.com/index.cgi?pick=get&tp=527747

[CaptGrim]

http://www.imagedump.com/index.cgi?pick=get&tp=527747

Very cool, are you going with holy blast, or with +2 wis?

[Tomalon]

http://www.imagedump.com/index.cgi?pick=get&tp=527747

very nice

[Gormenghast]

Very cool, are you going with holy blast, or with +2 wis?

I'll most certainly go for +2 wis.

[apious1]

Correction, tested the Air Guard some more...you do get hasted occasionally. It is a 30 second charge of haste.

[Turial]

Correction, tested the Air Guard some more...you do get hasted occasionally. It is a 30 second charge of haste.

Hmm...Does the effect read as haste or is it called something funky like air haste? Asking to figure out if the effect would work with haste to let you attack even faster.

[EspyLacopa]

hmmm.

Warforged Cleric, Lord of Blades enhancement
Green Steel Greatsword
First: Negative Material Escalation
Second: Positive Material Dominion

Would give a +5 Good Burst Greatsword (3d6 base), with +6 Str, +6 Wisdom, +10 Diplomacy, and +10 Haggle.

[Ilandrya]

I think that the air guard form might be correct on the weapon. If you read the last bit in the description of it: or speeding up the wearer with rushing winds. It seems like a nice combat ability. Now I'm torn between PPP and AAA for my sp goggles.

This could be. However, I still suspect its an error because from what we know of aspect 2 effects, weapons are offensive based upon a successful hit, where accessories are offensive based upon when we are hit successfully. That is really the only thing that is different between a weapon and an accessory with the same aspect 2 effect. Because on air/air/air weapon it's listed as when we are hit, not when we hit others, I think it's a display issue.

The name "air guard" however, when changed to a weapon using the format we are familiar with would simply be "air", which seems a bit odd. I was expecting something more along the lines of gust of wind, funnel cloud, tornado, hurricane etc. (since whirlwind is already on another weapon). Will wait to hear from a Dev on this issue.


Kargon reported this and E came on and explained that they put a (-) in for a (+) and that it will be fixed in 6.1. In the mean time wanna see if harm will actually heal you a little with the items on?

I am seeing two different reports of this bug with healing amplification, so it looks like this may be a consistant problem from player to player rather than being caused by equips/class/enhancements etc. I'm not seeing where E confirmed the issue and said it would be fixed in 6.1 though. Can you point me to the post please? Thanks. = )


I had a strange idea last night when thinking about trying to find the "Magma II" effect ... What if you get that extra effect from equipping multiple greensteel items?


The Dev (Eladrin) said it was possible to get Magma I and II on the same item.

[ShadowFox1978]

Has anyone tried a combo just switching gems? For instance: NOM, NEM,NDM. Wondering if having all three with one constant essence would do anything special. If it hasn't been tested, maybe I will do it.

[Turial]

Oh PLEASE NO. This will bankrupt poor Kargon!

More importantly, we know what this bug is and it will be fixed in the next update. It's all about the power of a misplaced negative sign in the data tables. In the meantime, Kargon should avoid any sort of healing while weilding his hammer.


~Silthe

Sorry it was silthe and not E that posted about the misplaced (-) and its on page 10 of the bughunter lodge. And well silthe says the next update which I may have mistakenly thought meant 6.1 but it may not. Time will tell.

[Borror0]

Would give a +5 Good Burst Greatsword (3d6 base), with +6 Str, +6 Wisdom, +10 Diplomacy, and +10 Haggle.

Why not an Holy, +1 Exceptional Strength, +6 Wisdom, +10 Diplomacy and +10 Haggle?

[Mavnimo]

Standard): Altar of Devastation success with Shavarath Shard Formulation! Consumed: Shavarath High Energy Cell, Superior Focus of Positive Energy, Pure Material Essence, Flawless Gem of Escalation. Created: Shard of Supreme Power. Shard of Supreme Power becomes Shard of Supreme Power.

(Standard): Altar of Devastation success with Ultimate Shavarath Transformation! Consumed: Shavarath High Energy Cell, Shard of Supreme Power. Created: +5 Icy Burst Green Steel Khopesh. +5 Icy Burst Green Steel Khopesh becomes +5 Supreme Tyrant Green Steel Khopesh.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y122/Mavnimo/SupremeTyrantKhopesh.jpg

Made multiple gems and added the wrong one to the shard so i went with the combo anyway no special bonuses

based off focus Pos/Water/Pos no special effect

[mrtreats]

I think he meant that they would show it on the item's decription like in any other MMO.


LOL yeah that is what i ment in PnP you can read a book but in DDO stuff like that would be on the items

[Riggs]

Correction, tested the Air Guard some more...you do get hasted occasionally. It is a 30 second charge of haste.

Wow. If that is non-stacking haste...that is really crappy. Any high level character is going to be under haste, have haste clickies, and/or a stack of haste potions.

A tier 3 all air weapon effect should be a high damage thunderclap/stun or whirlwind effect....
Kudos for making all air though.

[Angelus_dead]

Wow. If that is non-stacking haste...that is really crappy. Any high level character is going to be under haste, have haste clickies, and/or a stack of haste potions.
From what I can tell, the dodge +1 bonus of the airguard haste stacks, but not the speed.

On each hit, there is a 5% chance it triggers.
When it triggers, there is a 50% chance you are hasted, and a 50% chance the attacker suffers a DC 35 trip attempt.

[Turial]

From what I can tell, the dodge +1 bonus of the airguard haste stacks, but not the speed.

On each hit, there is a 5% chance it triggers.
When it triggers, there is a 50% chance you are hasted, and a 50% chance the attacker suffers a DC 35 trip attempt.

Kinda disappointing, many will be hasted pretty much 24/7 anyways. I think the worse part is that you have to be hit for it to work. On a weapon it would be alright if it was the other way around. I'm really starting to hope the ability is bugged and is supposed to work when you hit something. Though on a ranged weapon a decent archer build might be able to keep the haste effect up almost 24/7 if it worked on your hitting something else.

[binnsr]

has anyone tried Earth, Air and Fire (in that order) .. given the classic rock theme in the vale, I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a decent upgrade effect for that combo..

[Wutinni]

Working on that exact combo right now....

[Snoggy]

The Dev (Eladrin) said it was possible to get Magma I and II on the same item.

It was just wild late-night speculation on my part. So I don't think I'm right. It's just something that was buzzing around in the back of my head squeaking "What if ..."

[joeuhuh]

me and a buddy were thinkin the upgrade to existential stalemate mayb e pos neg earth since those are the forces invilved in the prime material plane hes workin on it but were gimptastic and dont get past part 4 very often lol so the ingredients are coming in slow

[Tomalon]

me and a buddy were thinkin the upgrade to existential stalemate mayb e pos neg earth since those are the forces invilved in the prime material plane hes workin on it but were gimptastic and dont get past part 4 very often lol so the ingredients are coming in slow

Dont feel bad, even if you do get past part 4 they still come slowly--very slowly.

[Aesop]

I may have missed it but did anyone finish a MON x 3 to find out the top level of that combo?... for items that is.

Aesop

[SneakThief]

I may have missed it but did anyone finish a MON x 3 to find out the top level of that combo?... for items that is.

Aesop
Still working on one ... have about half the larges I need. Donations accepted on Khyber :D

[sirgog]

I may have missed it but did anyone finish a MON x 3 to find out the top level of that combo?... for items that is.

Aesop

According to hearsay (no screenshots), on accessories (not weapons) -OM on Devastation grants Deathblock, and -OM//-OM//-OM grants the following:

Immune poison, fear, blindness, disease
Deathblock
Slay Living Guard: When the wearer is hit in melee combat, there is a chance (assumed from testing to be about 5%) that a DC 30 slay living spell is cast on the attacker.

[Aesop]

According to hearsay (no screenshots), on accessories (not weapons) -OM on Devastation grants Deathblock, and -OM//-OM//-OM grants the following:

Immune poison, fear, blindness, disease
Deathblock
Slay Living Guard: When the wearer is hit in melee combat, there is a chance (assumed from testing to be about 5%) that a DC 30 slay living spell is cast on the attacker.

hmmm... that may be worth it... even if I only get about a third of that stuff as being useful... already immune to Fear and Disease

well I'll keep lokking around before I commit on what i'm doing

Aesop

[Aesop]

Oh second question

Say I made a MDE MDE weapon and then for tier three I added EOE... would that still net the E3 benefit of Earthgrab? or am I being greedy wanting the +4 AC and Earthgrab? :D


Aesop

[Borror0]

Say I made a MDE MDE weapon and then for tier three I added EOE... would that still net the E3 benefit of Earthgrab?

Following all the current logic, yes you would.

[Aesop]

Following all the current logic, yes you would.

Yes I would be being greedy or yes I would make the item I was hoping for

Aesop

[Borror0]

Yes I would be being greedy or yes I would make the item I was hoping for

You'll get the item you're hoping for.

[Aesop]

You'll get the item you're hoping for.

And there was much rejoicing


<yay!!>

Aesop

[SneakThief]

Oh second question

Say I made a MDE MDE weapon and then for tier three I added EOE... would that still net the E3 benefit of Earthgrab? or am I being greedy wanting the +4 AC and Earthgrab? :D


Aesop
100% you would still get the Earth Grab. A guildie just made that exact combo not 15 min ago.

[Desteria]

Just finished uprading hte sorcs Bracers to final level .... If some oen realyl wants a Screne shot they can PM me a emial addy and i will se eabotu sending one

EARTH - AIR - POSITIVE
HP - SP - SP

Everythign expected for level 2 Level 3 NO special effect unlocked that is Visable, havent done any testign butmy bet is nothign special :(

[Cowdenicus]

part 2 so far... hopefully soon part 3.... just need 8 more ingredients....

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p224/aecowdeniii/ScreenShot00001.jpg

[digz]

Air/Escalation/Ethereal

http://mysite.verizon.net/digzpi8/goggs.jpg

[Shima-ra]

Those are the exact goggles I'm building!
Only I'm dont have everythign I need yet

[infernalmal]

I'm going Earth/Pos/Earth on bracers soon. Anyone else close to a similar combination like earth/fire/earth or air/pos/air for clothing? I want to know who thinks this will or will not give a tier 3 special effect and why.

[barecm]

Ok, I have a bow which I put first lvl fire + escalation + material, then went earth + dominion + material. Currently the stats are +6 dex, acid burst and attuned to magma. I was wondering if anyone has successfully made an upgrade to increase the magma damage. I was thinking either of three possibilities... more fire, more earth or positive for the next upgrade. My instincts are saying to add fire + escalation + material to get the +2 dex and hps and hope something else good happens.

Suggestions/theories?

[Inkblack]

After many suggestions, I'm caving in.

I'll start tracking Tier 3 upgrades based on the gems used (Dominion, Escalation, and Opposition) to look for additional Tier 3 bonuses. I have added it to my spreadsheet, and will track depending upon whether the essence (Material or Etherial) is held constant or not and whether the focus is held constant or not.

"Tier 3 Bonuses" tab became "Tier 3 Focus Combos". The new tab is "Tier 3 Gem Combos", the last one listed.

If you've seen a screenshot of a combo I've missed, please let me know. I'll update it as quickly as I can.

Link: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pLaIqDL_IzJRx5CcCEpCaYg

Cheers,
Ink

[Mavnimo]

Dont cave in, those suggestions are guesses at best. I've seen pos/dom/mat x3 greater disruption and pos/esc/eth greater disruption. Both on weapons, both lead to pos/pos/pos greater disruption.

[Turial]

dont cave in those suggestions are guesses at best. ive seen pos/dom/mat x3 greater disruption and pos/esc/eth greater disruption, both on weapons both lead to tier 3 pos/pos/pos greater disruption.

It is entirely possible though that the "easy" or pure upgrade paths dont lend themselves to different results based on gem and mat. It doesn't hurt to track all items used in upgrading till we know for sure. It just takes more time, which we all thank Ink for investing to make those changes to his spreadsheet.

[MysticTheurge]

"Tier 3 Bonuses" tab became "Tier 3 Focus Combos". The new tab is "Tier 3 Gem Combos", the last one listed.

Maybe I'm crazy, but it doesn't seem to make sense to track focus and gem separately. That assumes that there's never interaction between the two. If the gems are actually going to matter, it seems likely that focuses used would also matter, at the same time.

Wouldn't it make more sense to simply record the actual combinations used and what they result in. I.E. +DM/+DM/+DM = greater disruption; +EE/+EE/+EE = greater disruption; and so on.

[Avernus]

I'll post here what I posted in the TA forums per the gem discussion:



I want to try something like this:

________Focus________Gem________Essence

Tier 1___Positive_______Dominion_____Ethereal

Tier 2___Negative______Opposition____Ethereal

Tier 3___Positive_______Escalation_____Ethereal

Put any element in place of positive like fire, and water(its opposite) in place of negative. Basically choose an element for the dominion gem, then set it against its OPPOSING element for the opposition gem, then escalate the dominion for an UBER UBER power. Might also be that you can escalate the opposition for something else Uber.

I think this may be what Eladrin was talking about when he said that people were missing something in the para/quasi elemental crafting...

ALSO, this would mean that the simple 1st, 2nd, 3rd tier combinations of the focuses is too limited in scope. The combinations might also include the gems and/or the essences. Like Air Air Air for example, could be(although I highly doubt it. I really think the Air must be opposed to something for the crafting process to consider the gems) Air.Dom, Air.Opp, Air.Esc and produce a different effect. Unless this has already been disconfirmed...

I think just the simple opposites (teir1.air VS teir2.earth, fire VS water, pos VS neg) would bring the gems into question. Also, the order here could matter (air v earth VS earth v air) for a total of 6 of these opposing combinations to be escalated w/ a gem of escalation. It jumps to 12 if you consider Material v Ethereal Essence.

[Ilandrya]

Ok, I have a bow which I put first lvl fire + escalation + material, then went earth + dominion + material. Currently the stats are +6 dex, acid burst and attuned to magma. I was wondering if anyone has successfully made an upgrade to increase the magma damage. I was thinking either of three possibilities... more fire, more earth or positive for the next upgrade. My instincts are saying to add fire + escalation + material to get the +2 dex and hps and hope something else good happens.

Suggestions/theories?



I'm going Earth/Pos/Earth on bracers soon. Anyone else close to a similar combination like earth/fire/earth or air/pos/air for clothing? I want to know who thinks this will or will not give a tier 3 special effect and why.


The Altar of Invasion = Focus 1 (Affinity)
The Altar of Subjugation = Affinity + Focus 2 (Aspect 1)

One of the following is true:

The Altar of Devastation = Affinity + Focus 3 (Aspect 2)

or

The Altar of Devastation = Focus 2 + Focus 3 (Aspect 2)


We know:
e,a,p = fail balance of land and sky (para elemental), w/ positive
p,w,p = fail aspect of steam (quasi elemental) w/ positive
p,n,f = fail existential stalemate (para energy), w/ fire

What I really need to know for sure how the third level aspects are formed is an example of either

focus a + focus b + focus a or
focus a + focus b + focus b

where a and b are both elementals, not energy and do not create balance of land and sky or tempered. The closest example to that I have thus far is the middle one, but it uses a quasi elemental rather than a para elemental. If quasi elementals can get a second aspect bonus, which at this point we aren't certain they can, we know from the example above that p,w,p failed which means focus a + focus b + focus a failed to create a second aspect of steam. I'm going to state then that if it's possible to get a quasi elemental to the second aspect bonus, you would need to have gone focus a + focus b + focus b, or in other words, using the example, positive, water, water. Based upon that, it appears that the formula for the second aspect is the first focus combined with the third focus, and this has to match the same aspect that the first focus combined with the second produced for the first aspect. Now, this is based off a quasi elemental though, not a para elemental which would be a better test of how second aspect bonuses are formed.

Therefore, I'm going to state that it appears your best chance for a second aspect bonus barecm would be to go earth for third. That should create magma "II". That is my hypothesis based on the information we currently know. If you choose to go either earth or fire for third, that will tell me for certain what the formula is, but based on what we know of quasi elementals, (yours thus far is a para elemental) your third focus is more likely to work with earth.

Infernalmal, given the above information I posted, I don't think that combo will work for a second aspect bonus. Earth/positive created aspect of mineral. You need to repeat aspect of mineral. We know that won't happen with your proposed third focus because we know that focus 2 + focus 3 does not create the second quasi elemental aspect. Your best bet from what we know is to go positive for the third focus.

[MysticTheurge]

The Altar of Invasion = Focus 1 (Affinity)
The Altar of Subjugation = Affinity + Focus 2 (Aspect 1)

One of the following is true:

The Altar of Devastation = Affinity + Focus 3 (Aspect 2)

or

The Altar of Devastation = Focus 2 + Focus 3 (Aspect 2)

It's also possible that Apect 1 + Focus 3 = Aspect 2.

Or, in theory: Aspect 1 + Gem 3 = Aspect 2.

Or any other number of crazy possibilities.

[Ilandrya]

It's also possible that Apect 1 + Focus 3 = Aspect 2.

Or, in theory: Aspect 1 + Gem 3 = Aspect 2.

Or any other number of crazy possibilities.



aspect 1 + focus 3 = aspect 2 as you suggest is the same thing as focus 2 + focus 3 because focus 2 is aspect 1. focus 2 (aspect 1) + focus 3 is one of the two I've listed as possible ways of creating the second aspect.

we already know from examples that gems have nothing to do with second aspect bonuses, only focuses do

[barecm]

The Altar of Invasion = Focus 1 (Affinity)
The Altar of Subjugation = Affinity + Focus 2 (Aspect 1)

One of the following is true:

The Altar of Devastation = Affinity + Focus 3 (Aspect 2)

or

The Altar of Devastation = Focus 2 + Focus 3 (Aspect 2)


We know:
e,a,p = fail balance of land and sky (para elemental), w/ positive
p,w,p = fail aspect of steam (quasi elemental) w/ positive
p,n,f = fail existential stalemate (para energy), w/ fire

What I really need to know for sure how the third level aspects are formed is an example of either

focus a + focus b + focus a or
focus a + focus b + focus b

where a and b are both elementals, not energy and do not create balance of land and sky or tempered. The closest example to that I have thus far is the middle one, but it uses a quasi elemental rather than a para elemental. If quasi elementals can get a second aspect bonus, which at this point we aren't certain they can, we know from the example above that p,w,p failed which means focus a + focus b + focus a failed to create a second aspect of steam. I'm going to state then that if it's possible to get a quasi elemental to the second aspect bonus, you would need to have gone focus a + focus b + focus b, or in other words, using the example, positive, water, water. Based upon that, it appears that the formula for the second aspect is the first focus combined with the third focus, and this has to match the same aspect that the first focus combined with the second produced for the first aspect. Now, this is based off a quasi elemental though, not a para elemental which would be a better test of how second aspect bonuses are formed.

Therefore, I'm going to state that it appears your best chance for a second aspect bonus barecm would be to go earth for third. That should create magma "II". That is my hypothesis based on the information we currently know. If you choose to go either earth or fire for third, that will tell me for certain what the formula is, but based on what we know of quasi elementals, (yours thus far is a para elemental) your third focus is more likely to work with earth.

Infernalmal, given the above information I posted, I don't think that combo will work for a second aspect bonus. Earth/positive created aspect of mineral. You need to repeat aspect of mineral. We know that won't happen with your proposed third focus because we know that focus 2 + focus 3 does not create the second quasi elemental aspect. Your best bet from what we know is to go positive for the third focus.

I am hearing you. The more I think about it, the more I like going earth even if it doesn't work like we expect. Acid blast is more attractive than +2 dex. I think my ultimate goal is to free up my +6 dex item and have some damage, which going that route achieves. The +2 dex would only get me a minor bump (if any) for +to hit anyways. Now, I just need collect a few more large ingredients. I already have the shard for that level so soon.... it will be mine!

[Inkblack]

Maybe I'm crazy, but it doesn't seem to make sense to track focus and gem separately. That assumes that there's never interaction between the two. If the gems are actually going to matter, it seems likely that focuses used would also matter, at the same time.

Wouldn't it make more sense to simply record the actual combinations used and what they result in. I.E. +DM/+DM/+DM = greater disruption; +EE/+EE/+EE = greater disruption; and so on.

I'm in a position where I need to make assumptions to keep it simple.

There are 6 focuses, 3 gems, and 2 essences per upgrade, for 36 combinations per upgrade. If the order is important, then there are 36^3 combinations at the third tier, or 46,656. That's more work than I'm willing to sign up for.

If it proves necessary, we can go down that road. But for now I'd rather see evidence concerning the gem theory.

Ink

[EspyLacopa]

aspect 1 + focus 3 = aspect 2 as you suggest is the same thing as focus 2 + focus 3 because focus 2 is aspect 1. focus 2 (aspect 1) + focus 3 is one of the two I've listed as possible ways of creating the second aspect.

Not really.

Assuming that: Apect 1 = Focus 1 + Focus 2

And the idea that: Aspect 2 = Aspect 1 + Focus 3

Then saying that Aspect 2 = Focus 2 + Focus 3 would be the same as saying Focus 1 doesn't matter in getting that Aspect 2.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

DDO Wiki Updated with the information from over the weekend.
Can anyone PM me a link to the effects of Crashing Waves? I can't seem to find it atm...
And did we ever get a description of what Inceneration actually does?

I am assuming it is a "On-Hit chance to cast a fireball-like effect? Anyone know the DC or Damage or AOE or anything like that?

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

You and your wiki are using the phrase "tier 1" to mean something different from what the DDO developers and players mean by it.

I wasn't aware that I was using different terminology. If you could point me to an article defining the "correct" terminologies, I would be more than happy to change the terms used, as I am not really liking the Tier 1/Tier 2 Ingredients thing myself... but it was what I thought I had read on the DDO Website.

[Mad_Bombardier]

I wasn't aware that I was using different terminology. If you could point me to an article defining the "correct" terminologies, I would be more than happy to change the terms used, as I am not really liking the Tier 1/Tier 2 Ingredients thing myself... but it was what I thought I had read on the DDO Website.You are currently using Tier1/Tier2. The correct terms (from Turbine's Beginners' Guide (http://www.ddo.com/articles/945)) are 'Raw Ingredients' and 'Manufactured Ingredients'.

Posters on the DDO Forums have been using Tier1/2/3 for each of the altars. Altar of Invasion = Tier1, Altar of Subjugation = Tier2, Altar of Devastation = Tier3.

[Ilandrya]

Not really.

Assuming that: Apect 1 = Focus 1 + Focus 2

And the idea that: Aspect 2 = Aspect 1 + Focus 3

Then saying that Aspect 2 = Focus 2 + Focus 3 would be the same as saying Focus 1 doesn't matter in getting that Aspect 2.

I understand what you are saying but I don't think you are following me. For the purpose of clarification:

Aspect 1 + Focus 3 = Aspect 2 as MysticTheurge states is not possible because an aspect is comprised of two focuses, not three. Aspect 1 (created by using focus 1 + focus 2) + focus 3 is three focuses.

Upon selecting focus 2, we create aspect 1, which is comprised of both focus 1 and 2, and that is why I equate focus 2 with aspect 1 and stated that the way I did. It was to simplify for the purpose of understanding, not to disclude focus 1.

Because I don't have enough evidence to state unequivicably that aspect 2 is created using focus 1 and focus 3 as I suspect, I have to also include the possibility that it is created using focus 2 and focus 3 until I have adequate evidence to the contrary.

[SneakThief]

Or its possible there is no "Formula" for tier 3 bonuses at all and they just picked one focus to compliment the Tier 2 combo. There are only 21 Tier 2 combos, so its not like they "need" a formula to cover them.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

You are currently using Tier1/Tier2. The correct terms (from Turbine's Beginners' Guide (http://www.ddo.com/articles/945)) are 'Raw Ingredients' and 'Manufactured Ingredients'.

Posters on the DDO Forums have been using Tier1/2/3 for each of the altars. Altar of Invasion = Tier1, Altar of Subjugation = Tier2, Altar of Devastation = Tier3.

Ah, Ok... thanks Mad_B... I'll try to start making the requisite changes.


Additionally, I fixed a goof I made in the Crafting Instruction. I gave an example to make +EE Goggles, and I used the wrong "Manufactured Ingredients" for the Goggles (I accidentally used the Helm Ingredients). My apologies to anyone who I messed up with that.

[Ilandrya]

Or its possible there is no "Formula" for tier 3 bonuses at all and they just picked one focus to compliment the Tier 2 combo. There are only 21 Tier 2 combos, so its not like they "need" a formula to cover them.

There is a formula for creating aspects that is based in D&D. All known "tier 3 bonuses" are the result of aspect 1 + aspect 2, so there is a formula.

focus 1 + focus 2 = aspect 1. Since only two focuses are used to create an aspect, and we only have three focuses, that leaves either focus 1 + focus 3, or focus 2 + focus 3, for the creation of aspect 2. The same D&D based formula is used for the creation of an aspect, whether that is aspect 1 or aspect 2.

[jjflanigan]

There is a formula for creating aspects that is based in D&D. All known "tier 3 bonuses" are the result of aspect 1 + aspect 2, so there is a formula.

focus 1 + focus 2 = aspect 1. Since only two focuses are used to create an aspect, and we only have three focuses, that leaves either focus 1 + focus 3, or focus 2 + focus 3, for the creation of aspect 2. The same D&D based formula is used for the creation of an aspect, whether that is aspect 1 or aspect 2.

While that may be true, there's no way to know if there's something special we can do at certain tiers to make a special shard -- like one that is a shard of magma instead of a regular shard of fire, etc. So it could still be much more complex

[MysticTheurge]

I'm in a position where I need to make assumptions to keep it simple.

Fair enough. I'm glad you're doing the work and not me. ;)


an aspect is comprised of two focuses, not three.

You're making assumptions about Aspect II based on the way Aspect I works. There's nothing I've seen so far to suggest that your assumption is correct.

A second tier aspect (i.e. Aspect II) could be based on Aspect I and some other factor. Or three other factors (Gem I, Focus II, Essence III). Or 9 other factors (i.e. it matters what each manufactured ingredient is at all three tiers). There's just no way to know yet.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Ok, I just went through and changed all reference of "Tier 1 Ingredient" to "Raw Ingredient" and "Tier 2 Ingredient" to "Manufactured Ingredient".

I also moved the pages, to rename them as necessary, and updated the footer (with all the links to the Reciper Pages) that I could find. If anyone finds anything still broken or pointing to the old names, or using the old names, please let me know and I'll try to get it fixed as soon as I can.

[Big-Dex]

Had a thought occur to me...

Has anyone attempted to combine two fully imbued shards of power into a third empty shard of power?

This, of course, would be done prior to adding it to a weapon and might possibly produce the ever-evasive Magna II type aspect that Eladrin spoke of.

Just a thinking out loud here...

[bigal4458]

Believe it or not...i've read all 69 pages of this thread and am still pretty confused. I think i'm getting it down, but good job to all the contributors. I don't have enough time or resources to be able to contribute much.

[binnsr]

Ok, I just went through and changed all reference of "Tier 1 Ingredient" to "Raw Ingredient" and "Tier 2 Ingredient" to "Manufactured Ingredient".

I also moved the pages, to rename them as necessary, and updated the footer (with all the links to the Reciper Pages) that I could find. If anyone finds anything still broken or pointing to the old names, or using the old names, please let me know and I'll try to get it fixed as soon as I can.

how long does the RSS feed take to pick up these changes? I'm not seeing the new pages on my tracker :(

[Ilandrya]

While that may be true, there's no way to know if there's something special we can do for tier 3 to make a special shard -- like one that is a shard of magma instead of a regular shard of fire, etc. So it could still be much more complex

Correct, we don't know if there is a trick to shards yet or not. We do know:

There are 5 slots on the eldritch devices and to imbue a shard, you need:

shard, power cell, essence, gem, and focus

there is no room for a second focus when imbuing a shard, and removing one of the other ingredients and subsituting a second focus does not work

but:

shards can go in your trinket slot (don't know yet about imbued ones, but I find this interesting that they do...)

also, I do not know if a shard can be imbued more than once or more than one imbued shard can be used at a time at an altar


Also, while we know from the developer Eladrin that it is possible to have magma I and II on one item, he also hinted that there were "special" effects... this may go beyond aspect I and II/ magma I and II he was talking about. It's possible shards/trinkets may have something to do with this, or that aspect I "balances" have a trick to them....

[SneakThief]

There is a formula for creating aspects that is based in D&D. All known "tier 3 bonuses" are the result of aspect 1 + aspect 2, so there is a formula.

focus 1 + focus 2 = aspect 1. Since only two focuses are used to create an aspect, and we only have three focuses, that leaves either focus 1 + focus 3, or focus 2 + focus 3, for the creation of aspect 2. The same D&D based formula is used for the creation of an aspect, whether that is aspect 1 or aspect 2.

Actually ... it might not matter at all what Focus1 or Focus2 are. It might only matter what Aspect1 is. That is, it might just be that I need to add Fire to Magma I to get Magma II, regardless of the order that Fire and Earth were combined to make Magma I. And it might not follow some formulaic pattern. They may have just said, "what would compliment magma? Fire would make it hotter. Ok, lets go with that."

I'm still stuck on Eladrin's little cryptic statement that there is something we havent figured out about Tier 3 upgrades. I know that more than one imbued shard cannot be used on an item a the Tier 1 and Tier 2 alters. But then he didnt say there was something we didnt know about upgrading in general he said specifically Tier 3. Of course, I'm no where near having enough large ingridients to test that. And that would make those signifigantly "harder" than the "easy" ones.

PS - 3 large ingridients away from NOM-NOM-NOM goggles.

[MysticTheurge]

I'm still stuck on Eladrin's little cryptic statement that there is something we havent figured out about Tier 3 upgrades. I know that more than one imbued shard cannot be used on an item a the Tier 1 and Tier 2 alters. But then he didnt say there was something we didnt know about upgrading in general he said specifically Tier 3. Of course, I'm no where near having enough large ingridients to test that. And that would make those signifigantly "harder" than the "easy" ones.

It does sort of suggest a "think outside the box" mentality.

I am curious about the twice-imbued shard and the two-shards-one-weapon possibilities.

[Vienemen]

PS - 3 large ingridients away from NOM-NOM-NOM goggles.

Good luck in the pulls...have someone spot ya whats needed...I really would like to know the end to these. Hell with just the 4 abilities it has so far makes me want to make one.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Ok, I just went through and changed all reference of "Tier 1 Ingredient" to "Raw Ingredient" and "Tier 2 Ingredient" to "Manufactured Ingredient".Something still just isn't right. Purely, nitpicking here (what can I say, I'm a perfectionist ;)). It looks like you're linking a recipe to make Raw Ingredients (which you don't make, you find). How about 'Recipes using Raw Ingredients' and 'Recipes using Manufactured Ingredients'? And as you know, you can just tell me to frak off. I'm okay with that, too. :D

[Ilandrya]

An aspect is made up of two "focuses"... two elements or energies, or a combination thereof, in D&D. It's not an assumption that an aspect is an aspect is an aspect, whether you number it aspect 1, aspect 2 or aspect 3,579,348, it's still an aspect.

[MysticTheurge]

And as you know, you can just tell me to frak off. I'm okay with that, too. :D

Oh frak off, Mad_B!

/checks that one off the "to do before I die" list

[MysticTheurge]

An aspect is made up of two "focuses"... two elements or energies, or a combination thereof, in D&D. It's not an assumption that an aspect is an aspect is an aspect, whether you number it aspect 1, aspect 2 or aspect 3,579,348, it's still an aspect.

A first tier aspect (i.e. Aspect I, made at the Altar of Subjugation) is made up of two focuses. That is all we know.

Your assumption that second tier aspects (i.e. Aspect II, made at the alter of Devastation) work in the same way is an assumption.

Heck, the assumption that it's even called "Aspect of Magma II" is an assumption. Eladrin said:


I'm trying to help, really, in a way that won't end up with Piloto poisoning my basil pad thai, not tease. :)

A weapon with, say, "Magma I" on it at Tier Two can be upgraded to "Magma II" at Tier Three.

That indicates to me that "Magma II" isn't necessarily even called "Magma II." And he doesn't even obliquely refer to it as an "Aspect." So yes, you're assuming things about the way Altar of Devastation upgrade abilities work based on entirely unrelated information.

[Boulderun]

shards can go in your trinket slot (don't know yet about imbued ones, but I find this interesting that they do...)

Imbued shards equip to the trinket slot as well, with no immediately apparent effect (no combat log message, no buff graphics, etc).

[Ilandrya]

Heck, the assumption that it's even called "Aspect of Magma II" is an assumption.

Correct. Being as we haven't yet seen at item with "Magma I" and "Magma II" on it, we of course don't know what it's actually called, but we do have to use some terminology to describe it in the meantime. I'm not sure what this has to do with your point that I, personally, am assuming things though. I have not made an assumption about what "Magma I & II" is actually called. I have merely used terminology to describe it as best I can because the proper name is lacking currently.




And he doesn't even obliquely refer to it as an "Aspect."

Correct in that he doesn't refer to it as an aspect in that post. However, we know from D&D that these are in fact aspects. When the aspects started showing up after items were upgraded at the second raid altar, we knew what they were all named before we actually saw them all, even though we didn't know what they did yet... because they were all taken directly from aspects in D&D. Also in the description of the items at the second upgrade, it says "Aspect of". So, although he didn't use that term himself, both in the descriptions of the items themselves, as well as in D&D, we are consistant with calling them "Aspects". Just because he didn't use the word "aspect", doesn't mean they are not, and everything we have seen to date indicates they are. We also know what comprises an aspect from D&D. So it's not an assumption on my part that two elements, two energies, or a combination thereof make up an aspect... that is straight from D&D.




Your assumption that second tier aspects (i.e. Aspect II, made at the alter of Devastation) work in the same way is an assumption

If you are referring to my earlier posts, it's a working hypothesis, which is not the same thing as an assumption. One is based on following scientific principles, the other is not. Could I be wrong? Yes. Anything can turn out to be wrong when more information becomes known. Look at what we now know about black holes as oppossed to what we thought 50 years ago. Obviously no one knows much with regard to second tier aspects for a "fact", because we do not have sufficient info to do so at this point. I have not claimed that my hypothesis is a fact, and I have in fact, stated several times that it is a hypothesis. This is already known, I have stated it freely, and it's not something I deny. So, again, I'm not sure what your point is here. I don't see anything to indicate that you are disproving my hypothesis, and I've already previously established it's a hypothesis. I haven't discounted all other possiblities, like with the shards, for example, which could lead down a whole different path entirely or build upon my own theory. You are entitled to your own views, and I won't be offended if you don't agree with mine, but that doesn't negate that it's a plausable hypothesis right now until either proven or disproven. It doesn't mean others shouldn't be considered in the meantime.

[SneakThief]

Again, I'm not sure what your point is here. I was defining what an aspect is in my last post, not discussing how second tier aspects work. What an aspect consists of, again, is straight from D&D, so it's not an assumption.

Can you point me to where in D&D you are talking about "Aspects" from? Because the reason we knew the names was from Elemental, Para-Elemental, and Quasi-Elemental planes. I dont remember reading anything about an "Aspect" when I was reading about planes.

[MysticTheurge]

If you are referring to my earlier posts, it's a working hypothesis, which is not the same thing as an assumption. One is based on following scientific principles, the other is not. Could I be wrong? Yes. Anything can turn out to be wrong when more information becomes known.

There are no scientific principles here. Or at the very least, we don't have enough information on Tier III abilities to be drawing any conclusions or even be making hypotheses. Which is why I said, at the start of this little back-and-forth, that the Tier III abilities could be based on any number of different things. To which you responded "No, it can't be made up of an aspect and a focus because it's an aspect and an aspect is made up of two focuses." Which is not a hypothesis. It's a bunch of assumptions. You're assuming that tier III abilities are aspects, and you're assuming all aspects are made up of two focuses and nothing else.


Again, I'm not sure what your point is here. I was defining what an aspect is in my last post, not discussing how second tier aspects work. What an aspect consists of, again, is straight from D&D, so it's not an assumption.

My point is the one I've been making since the beginning. We can't know that the "Aspect II" will be based on two focuses. Which you seem fixated on.

And no. There are no "aspects" in D&D. You made that up (or, one could say, assumed it).

And for what it's worth:


hy&#183;poth&#183;e&#183;sis /haɪˈpɒθəsɪs, hɪ-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hahy-poth-uh-sis, hi-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -ses /-ˌsiz/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[-seez] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation.
1. a proposition, or set of propositions, set forth as an explanation for the occurrence of some specified group of phenomena, either asserted merely as a provisional conjecture to guide investigation (working hypothesis) or accepted as highly probable in the light of established facts.
2. a proposition assumed as a premise in an argument.
3. the antecedent of a conditional proposition.
4. a mere assumption or guess.

[Ilandrya]

I stand corrected. Thank you for the clarification about the definition of hypothesis, and the info on aspects vs. planes. I apparently misread/misunderstood another post on the subject. I think my hypothesis, or whatever you wish to call it, about tier two aspects, or whatever you wish to call them, is a valid one at this point, and one I will continue to look into, but I don't feel the need to argue it further, nor do I enjoy negativity, so this will be my last post on it. Time will either prove or disprove it. If its wrong or right, so be it. No skin off of my nose either way.

[MysticTheurge]

I think my hypothesis, or whatever you wish to call it, about tier two aspects, or whatever you wish to call them, is a valid one at this point

I think it is a good guess and is certainly high on my personal list of what I think is the most likely. (It ranks, for instance, above the "Gems and Essences matter" hypothesis.)

I never really argued that it was entirely wrong. All I argued was with your assertion that other possibilities were, in fact, not possible. We just don't know enough yet to be saying what is or is not going to affect these things.

[Tomalon]

If it takes 2 focus' to make aspect I why would you think you could get aspect II only adding 1 more focus. Maybe something we need to look at it imbueing a sup shard with a focus and then with a foucs/gem/essence. if that would work then we would have a shard of aspect 1 imbued on to item X with aspect I. My thoght it aspect I + aspect I = aspect II.

Just a thought to chew on

[Erinyes]

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa201/erineanderson/morningstarbix.jpg

EEE, in case we needed a screenshot.

[GwenJynx]

Here is my Positive, Escalation, Material / Negative, Escalation, Material Cloak

http://www.paperdollguild.com/Images/ScreenShot00074.jpg

[Cambo]

If it takes 2 focus' to make aspect I why would you think you could get aspect II only adding 1 more focus. Maybe something we need to look at it imbueing a sup shard with a focus and then with a foucs/gem/essence. if that would work then we would have a shard of aspect 1 imbued on to item X with aspect I. My thoght it aspect I + aspect I = aspect II.

Just a thought to chew on

IMO we are reading too much into it.

It will be somthing like :
Fire+Earth = Magma I + Fire = Magma II (ie hotter magma) (Earth would cool down the magma)
Positive + Air = Lighnitng I + Positive = Lightning II (ie more static charge in the air) (Air would dissipate the charge)


Just got confirmation that Pos + Pos + Water gives not tier 3 effect.

[Erinyes]

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa201/erineanderson/macebixtier2.jpg

Tier 2 on the morningstar, WEE (water, escalation, ethereal)

Tier 1 was EEE (earth, escalation, ethereal)

[Snoggy]

Believe it or not...i've read all 69 pages of this thread and am still pretty confused. I think i'm getting it down, but good job to all the contributors. I don't have enough time or resources to be able to contribute much.

It gets a little easier to understand after you've started going through the process with your actual items. Like you start to see how everything fits together, and you start to get a bit more comfortable with the tables shown here and what everyone else is talking about.

But yeah, it's still really tricky.

[rosu]

I am almost positive that Erinyes morningstar is the correct starting combo for upgrading to Ooze II. For the simple fact that hers is named whereas my maul is only +5 acid burst maul. Earth+Frost=great commander vs Frost+Earth=no name. Any other conformation to this theory?

[Ilandrya]

I am almost positive that Erinyes morningstar is the correct starting combo for upgrading to Ooze II. For the simple fact that hers is named whereas my maul is only +5 acid burst maul. Earth+Frost=great commander vs Frost+Earth=no name. Any other conformation to this theory?

http://i29.tinypic.com/2uq16cp.jpg

This names air first then fire for aspect of smoke, but fire was used first and it was named "Great Commander". It is interesting that some upgrades get the name and others don't... I'm interested in finding out why as well.

[Cambo]

This names air first then fire for aspect of smoke, but fire was used first and it was named "Great Commander". It is interesting that some upgrades get the name and others don't... I'm interested in finding out why as well.


Definitely piqued my interest in the "name" indicating that you on the right path...i think there is more to that!!

[MysticTheurge]

IMO we are reading too much into it.

It will be somthing like :
Fire+Earth = Magma I + Fire = Magma II (ie hotter magma) (Earth would cool down the magma)
Positive + Air = Lighnitng I + Positive = Lightning II (ie more static charge in the air) (Air would dissipate the charge)

I don't know, Eladrin said:


There's still one thing that people haven't yet discovered regarding upgrading Para or Quasi elemental combinations.

Which kind of suggests to me that there's something else we're not thinking of besides just finding the right tier III to put on the item.


This names air first then fire for aspect of smoke, but fire was used first and it was named "Great Commander". It is interesting that some upgrades get the name and others don't... I'm interested in finding out why as well.

Is it possible it has to do with the gems and essences used? Both of the recent examples (WEE/EEE and FOM/AOM) have used the same gem/essence combo at both levels.

[Ilandrya]

Is it possible it has to do with the gems and essences used? Both of the recent examples (WEE/EEE and FOM/AOM) have used the same gem/essence combo at both levels.

Looking at Erinyes's example of the morningstar above, it looks like at first upgrade it went EEE and didn't receive the title on the weapon (first screenshot), then at second upgrade went Air, Escalation, Ethereal. Second upgrade screenshot shows it got the title, but the only difference was Water was used instead of Air. So, Escalation, Ethereal resulted in no title on the first upgrade, but did on the second.

[Cowdenicus]

Well I spoke with Eladrin and the rest of the DDO Gods, and they said I am on the right track to making the uberest most leetsauce item ever. You all on the other hand are only getting Vendor Junk. :rolleyes:

Have a great day. ;)

[Wutinni]

Is it possible that the 2nd Tier for aspects are not possible with only one greensteel item equiped? The Devs already said that there are ways of untainting the items to allow multiples on one toon. Perhaps Magma II is only possible if you have 2 Magma I items equiped.

Just a thought

[MysticTheurge]

Looking at Erinyes's example of the morningstar above, it looks like at first upgrade it went EEE and didn't receive the title on the weapon (first screenshot), then at second upgrade went Air, Escalation, Ethereal. Second upgrade screenshot shows it got the title, but the only difference was Water was used instead of Air. So, Escalation, Ethereal resulted in no title on the first upgrade, but did on the second.

Hmm. Good point.

Here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1580225&postcount=1320)'s a kopesh that's named. +DM/WDM/+EE

But no third tier effect. :(

[jjflanigan]

Is it possible that the 2nd Tier for aspects are not possible with only one greensteel item equiped? The Devs already said that there are ways of untainting the items to allow multiples on one toon. Perhaps Magma II is only possible if you have 2 Magma I items equiped.

Just a thought

Doubt it since they specifically stated that you could *upgrade* a magma I to a magma II.

[Cowdenicus]

Doubt it since they specifically stated that you could *upgrade* a magma I to a magma II.

You got air in my magma......

[barecm]

Doubt it since they specifically stated that you could *upgrade* a magma I to a magma II.

Agreed. There is something out there that has not been tried yet. Since there are not too many people with enough ingredients and shards to start testing wholesale yet, we can only theorize. Once I get enough large ingredients, I am going to upgrade my magma I weapon (longbow) with earth (or fire) to see if that works. Conventional wisdom would say either earth or fire. Either one would have benefits, but I am leaning towards earth (EDM) simply for the fact that if it does not work, I will at least have acid blast on it. If I go fire, I would go FEM and get the extra 2 dex... but I am not so sure how big a deal 2 extra dex really is. Maybe +1 to hit, if that. ???

Anyway, I will post when I have enough stuff collected. Currently as follows:

FEM + EDM + (EDM or FEM) stats (+5, attuned to fire, magma, +6 dex and acid burst)


FWIW, the magma I clickie kind of sucks. 1 charge, 4 fire bombs that do ~30 points each. Most everything saves; so basically a cool graphic with no damage done.

[paul1devries]

If i have read everything correctly - can i assume that you can get an extra 45 hp if you upgrade the goggles three times correctly? By that i mean do the hit points stack?

I am thinking of making a set of goggles for spell poitns and another for hitpoints...

Cheers,
Brisket

[Gol]

For what it's worth, my khopesh that I did MDP/MDE no longer identifies with Taint on it. I'll try to remember to post a screenie tonight.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

how long does the RSS feed take to pick up these changes? I'm not seeing the new pages on my tracker :(

That I do not know, but I moved the pages for everything but the main Crafting Page to fix the names of the pages (to match the 'corrected' naming scheme, so that might be part of the problem?


Something still just isn't right. Purely, nitpicking here (what can I say, I'm a perfectionist ;)). It looks like you're linking a recipe to make Raw Ingredients (which you don't make, you find). How about 'Recipes using Raw Ingredients' and 'Recipes using Manufactured Ingredients'? And as you know, you can just tell me to frak off. I'm okay with that, too. :D

I'm definitely voting for "Frack Off, you Toaster!"...

But seriously, that is fine... if you want to go and change the link descriptions, but I don't want to go change the page names again... but keep in mind that footer is on all of the Crafting Pages, so if you fix one, you have to fix them all! (sounds kinda Pokemon-like there, doesn't it! :D)

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

If i have read everything correctly - can i assume that you can get an extra 45 hp if you upgrade the goggles three times correctly? By that i mean do the hit points stack?

I am thinking of making a set of goggles for spell poitns and another for hitpoints...

Cheers,
Brisket

Yes, they do stack. Most of these new bonuses are using "Exceptional Bonus", which means that it stacks with all other bonuses except another exceptional bonus that is identical.

So "Exceptional Charisma +1" does *NOT* stack with "Exceptional Charisma +1", but it DOES stack with "Exceptional Charisma +2" and +3, and so on. Same with the hit points... it is using an Exceptional Bonus, so it stacks with the higher levels, for +45 HP total... but you can't wear 2 items with the +10 Hit Points to get +20.

[oronisi]

For what it's worth, my khopesh that I did MDP/MDE no longer identifies with Taint on it. I'll try to remember to post a screenie tonight.

Weapons never had the Taint, only items.

[Cowdenicus]

Weapons never had the Taint, only items.

But only the Mad Cow, could get the Devs to confirm how to remove me taint......... :D

[Mavnimo]

Just throwing this out. I believe only certain combos give title prefixes. Lieutenant, Great Commander, with Supreme Tyrant going on all tier 3 finals. Based off this, I think Combining only the recipes that give a title will resuslt in a special effect.

[apious1]

I will try to get you a screenshot as soon as possible, but one of the guys in my guild upgraded a pair of gloves last night using:
Tier 1: Negative + Opposition + Material; Clothing/Jewelry Attribute Added: Blindness Immunity, Disease Immunity
Tier 2: Negative + Opposition + Material; Clothing/Jewelry Attribute Added: Poison Immunity, Fear Immunity
Tier 3: Negative + Opposition + Material; Clothing/Jewelry Attribute Added: Deathblock

Negative + Negative + Negative Attribute was "Slay Living Guard" (Chance to Slay Living when melee attacked)

Just thought I'd let you all know.

[Burnrate]

Perhaps there is a relationship between the aspect and the item. I hope not, but it could be relate in some way. There are 12 weapon types and 8 items. Of the aspects there exist 6 pure, 12 quasi/para aspects, and 3 balanced aspects (tempered and what not). It could be that short swords are best suited to smoke for instance and warhammers for mineral and would therefore be required to reach smoke II or mineral II.

I kinda doubt it, but I thought I would throw it out there.

[steelblade]

what is with the great shards of power!? and how do you use them to upgread at alter of invasion?!
im going posetive

[Cowdenicus]

what is with the great shards of power!? and how do you use them to upgread at alter of invasion?!
im going posetive

reading the first page FTW

[steelblade]

reading the first page FTW

k thanks i read in it 5 times and could not find it >.<

[Erinyes]

Is it possible it has to do with the gems and essences used? Both of the recent examples (WEE/EEE and FOM/AOM) have used the same gem/essence combo at both levels.

(I'm basing the following idea on the stat increase items, since that's what I've been making with this morningstar.)

I'm hoping that this morningstar is on the right track. Right now, my plan is to do EEE third tier (going on the idea that thicker ooze is better than runny ooze. Yummy! :D) If you notice (at least for stats) there are two kinds for each type. Earth and Water are both Wisdom, for example.

I mean, it only makes sense that most people would be looking for an item that focuses on something, right? No one is going to, for example, make a weapon that is, say, Tier 1 = +6 Con, Tier 2 = +1 Wis and then say, Tier 3 = +2 Chr. I assume most would go that route to get an item up to +9 for one stat, on one weapon. Seems like just a big mess otherwise, and "Magma II" or the equilvilant would have to be something really amazing for people to craft a Frankenstien item that has no purpose, just for a clickie or an unknown extra effect? There has to be some logic to these combinations (like what we have seen thus far) - I don't think the devs would expect people to create something competely useless and have that weird combo result in a SUPER item.

However, combining two elements, which both effect the same stat in the "correct" order, might mean something?

I'm not sure how this would apply across the board, but maybe if Tier 3 EEE works for "Ooze II", hopefully it will be a good starting point to figure the rest out. Now, to get more large parts! :D

[UtherSRG]

k thanks i read in it 5 times and could not find it >.<

To upgrade a greensteel item:
1. Combine the 12 raw ingredients (bone, chain, etc.) to make the 3 manufactured ingredients you need (gem, focus, essence). 4 ingredients + a power cell => 1 manufactured ingredient
2. Imbue the shard of power with the 3 manufactured ingredients. 3 manufactured ingredients + power cell + shard of power => imbued shard of power
3. upgrade your item with the imbued shard. 1 green steel + imbued shard + power cell => upgraded green steel item

[akla_thornfist]

id try to follow this guide to make my goggles was trying for the wiz6 first tier must have done something wrong ended up with +10 hp and +1 to concentration bunch of **** gonna recheck when i get home make sure i didnt mess up,

[MysticTheurge]

id try to follow this guide to make my goggles was trying for the wiz6 first tier must have done something wrong ended up with +10 hp and +1 to concentration bunch of **** gonna recheck when i get home make sure i didnt mess up,

You used material instead of ethereal essence.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Just throwing this out. I believe only certain combos give title prefixes. Lieutenant, Great Commander, with Supreme Tyrant going on all tier 3 finals. Based off this, I think Combining only the recipes that give a title will resuslt in a special effect.

This is the very reason why I asked Eladrin to confirm:





Can you confirm whether all 2nd tier para or quasi elemental combinations can be successfully upgraded into a 3rd tier 'bonus special effect', or just some of them?

All of them can be successfully upgraded.


I think Great Commander is just added when there isn't another prefix overriding, e.g. upgrading a weapon with pos/neg gives you a 'wise' prefix and not a Great Commander prefix, but from what Eladrin was saying it can still be upgraded to 'Existential Stalemate II' if you work out the correct 'tricky (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1570797#post1570797)' combination.

But then again, I've been wrong before, and I might be wrong here too :)

Garth

[Coldin]

I've been kinda wondering something, and I was curious if any has tried this yet.

I went Air Dominion Material at the first 2 altars for my shortsword. I'm wondering if any special tier 3 effect would happen if I went with anything but Air. I was kind of thinking of going with Water or Positive. Or once you start with a double upgrade of the same type, you're stuck doing the same with the 3rd if you want the special bonus?

Has anyone tried using the same element twice, then throwing in a different element or a positive or negative?

[Erinyes]

I've been kinda wondering something, and I was curious if any has tried this yet.

I went Air Dominion Material at the first 2 altars for my shortsword. I'm wondering if any special tier 3 effect would happen if I went with anything but Air. I was kind of thinking of going with Water or Positive. Or once you start with a double upgrade of the same type, you're stuck doing the same with the 3rd if you want the special bonus?

Has anyone tried using the same element twice, then throwing in a different element or a positive or negative?

According to Ink's spreadsheet, Earth+Earth+Water and Earth+Earth+Positive have both been tried, with no special results. Negative+Negative+Positive also produced no extra effect.

[binnsr]

I've been kinda wondering something, and I was curious if any has tried this yet.

I went Air Dominion Material at the first 2 altars for my shortsword. I'm wondering if any special tier 3 effect would happen if I went with anything but Air. I was kind of thinking of going with Water or Positive. Or once you start with a double upgrade of the same type, you're stuck doing the same with the 3rd if you want the special bonus?

Has anyone tried using the same element twice, then throwing in a different element or a positive or negative?


According to Ink's spreadsheet, Earth+Earth+Water and Earth+Earth+Positive have both been tried, with no special results. Negative+Negative+Positive also produced no extra effect.

I'm still collecting large ingredients to try air/earth/positive .. hopefully we'll see something nice from adding pos/neg to a balanced tier II upgrade..

[Desteria]

I'm still collecting large ingredients to try air/earth/positive .. hopefully we'll see something nice from adding pos/neg to a balanced tier II upgrade..

just to note I have done a Earth/Air/Pos on equipment with no vis level 3 bonus, havent had time to do much testing for hidden effects yet, but havent noticed any thing yet.

[Erinyes]

I'm still collecting large ingredients to try air/earth/positive .. hopefully we'll see something nice from adding pos/neg to a balanced tier II upgrade..

Earth/Air/Positive is on Ink's sheet as a no bonus combo, in case you didn't see that. (not sure if that would make any difference for your intentions or not.)

[Erinyes]

just to note I have done a Earth/Air/Pos on equipment with no vis level 3 bonus, havent had time to do
much testing for hidden effects yet, but havent noticed any thing yet.

:eek: I'm too slow! :D

[akla_thornfist]

You used material instead of ethereal essence.

so can i fix them on tier 2 or are they junk now or start over in tier 1

[MysticTheurge]

so can i fix them on tier 2 or are they junk now or start over in tier 1

You can still get the +150 SPs from tiers II and III, but you can't get Wizardry VI on them.

The good news, is that those +150 SPs will stack with anything else (POPX, Skiver, etc.) so it's not a bad item, per se. It's just not ideal if you want it to be your one and only SP item.

[akla_thornfist]

You can still get the +150 SPs from tiers II and III, but you can't get Wizardry VI on them.

The good news, is that those +150 SPs will stack with anything else (POPX, Skiver, etc.) so it's not a bad item, per se. It's just not ideal if you want it to be your one and only SP item.

ok thanks guess i will start over with them redo tier1, it should overide if im reading correctly

[Ironwind]

While making my Tier 2 upgrade, I either wrote down the wrong ingredients or the spread sheet was wrong; because I got an upgrade that I didn't want.

Do I have to create a new green steel blank, tier 1 upgrade it and then get back to tier 2 and do it right?

Or can I just create a new Tier 2 effect that will erase and re-write my current tier 2 effect?

Thanks in advance.

[Mad_Bombardier]

While making my Tier 2 upgrade, I either wrote down the wrong ingredients or the spread sheet was wrong; because I got an upgrade that I didn't want.

Do I have to create a new green steel blank, tier 1 upgrade it and then get back to tier 2 and do it right?

Or can I just create a new Tier 2 effect that will erase and re-write my current tier 2 effect?
Use your current item to experiment with the system to find new effects/properties. Then, start from scratch to make the item you really wanted in the first place.

[MysticTheurge]

ok thanks guess i will start over with them redo tier1, it should overide if im reading correctly

You can't redo a tier. You have to make a new item.

[Hence]

I wish we had just a couple more hints about updating "special" combinations. If we could get just a few basic questions answered, we would have an easier time finding them.

1. Do the Gems or Essence matter WHATSOEVER to the bonus effects in the last tier?

2. Is there only one upgrade path for "special" combinations to get a bonus effect at tier 3? (eg earth+air, neg+pos, water+fire)

3. Do "special" combinations rely on Gems or Essence combinations for a bonus effect at tier 3?

4. How many bonus effects are not showing up on items? (eg earth+earth+earth)

I don't believe answering any of these questions would give us to much information, but they would help steer us in the right direction.
We have found all the effects on weapons from "easy" combinations:
water x3 = Wave Crush
air x3 = Air Guard
earth x3 = Earthgrab
fire x3 = Incineration
pos x3 = Greater Disruption
neg x3 = Slay Living

Yet we still have not seen any effects from mixes. My guess is they are either bugged (not showing), or we may just be expecting way to much from these.

[MysticTheurge]

Yet we still have not seen any effects from mixes. My guess is they are either bugged (not showing), or we may just be expecting way to much from these.

There's another possibility. We still "aren't getting something" about the mixes.

[slumbering_dragon]

i have a thought i have a positive, earth kohpesh i am bout to add negative to it and it might make something other that aspect of mineral, all i have seen is only 2 combanations, not three, and what about adding multiple powershards in tier 3 or the other tiers, there is 2 extra spots open. or 4 power shards and one energy cell and see if it make somethign for your trinket slot. just a few ideas.

[SneakThief]

3. Do "special" combinations rely on Gems or Essence combinations for a bonus effect at tier 3?
"Specials" are Earth/Air, Fire/Water, Pos/Neg. They are combinations that never happen planar wise. Para(Elemental)s are two elements, and Quasi(Elemental)s are an element and Pos OR Neg. So one covers all non-pure combinations by saying Para's, Quasi's, and specials.


4. How many bonus effects are not showing up on items? (eg earth+earth+earth)

I don't believe answering any of these questions would give us to much information, but they would help steer us in the right direction.
We have found all the effects on weapons from "easy" combinations:
water x3 = Wave Crush
air x3 = Air Guard
earth x3 = Earthgrab
fire x3 = Incineration
pos x3 = Greater Disruption
neg x3 = Slay Living

Yet we still have not seen any effects from mixes. My guess is they are either bugged (not showing), or we may just be expecting way to much from these.

We know that triple earth on an item is bugged so its entire possible others are too. But we are still treating Tier 3 combos the way we treated tier 2, and we know from Eladrin there is something we hadn't figured out about the Tier 3 upgrades. I suspect we still havent and until we do, we wont see any tier 3 combos.

[MysticTheurge]

"Specials" are Earth/Air, Fire/Water, Pos/Neg. They are combinations that never happen planar wise. Para(Elemental)s are two elements, and Quasi(Elemental)s are an element and Pos OR Neg. So one covers all non-pure combinations by saying Para's, Quasi's, and specials.

Again, there's no way to really be sure that's what Eladrin meant when he said "Special" combos.

[Big-Dex]

You can still get the +150 SPs from tiers II and III, but you can't get Wizardry VI on them.

The good news, is that those +150 SPs will stack with anything else (POPX, Skiver, etc.) so it's not a bad item, per se. It's just not ideal if you want it to be your one and only SP item.


I just tested this... I have bracers with WIZ VI crafted into them and they do not stack with my POP X. Am I doing something wrong or are you mistaken in saying they stack?

[Aesop]

I just tested this... I have bracers with WIZ VI crafted into them and they do not stack with my POP X. Am I doing something wrong or are you mistaken in saying they stack?

he's talkin about the elemental energy not the Wiz VI

Aesop

[Boulderun]

Maybe we need to revisit the multi-shard theory for tier 3. We've ruled out several of the obvious combos (or at least as far as they can be ruled out when we've established at least one effect is not being displayed). If Pos + Air + Air is a silly idea (You got air in my lightning!), and we make the reasonable assumption that Pos + Air + Pos is useless since Pos + Water + Pos does nothing (You got positive energy in my... steam?), what else is there to do to make Lightning I into Lightning II... except add more lightning.

The fact that farming large ingredients is an infuriatingly brutal grind itself leads me to think that we do have to imbue two complete supreme shards in order to find the non-"easy" formulae. It would be consistent with DDO "raid theory."

[SneakThief]

Again, there's no way to really be sure that's what Eladrin meant when he said "Special" combos.
Actually ... there is, if you read all of his posts. So much gets lost when people start paraphrasing.

If you use the one from the 17th its rather vague and open to interpretation.

Quasi-elemental, para-elemental, and "special" tier three upgrade paths exist, and tend to have superior abilities to the "easy" elemental upgrades.

But if you read almost the same wording the next day (18th) its not really interpretable anymore.

Pure elements are the easiest ones to upgrade since you can just slap another Fire onto that Fire stick, and it'll work. Para, Quasi, and "special" elemental combinations are a bit trickier. Para, Quasi, and "special" elemental combinations are a bit trickier.

"elemental combinations", whether being applied to just "special" or all three (as English allows either), still narrows that definition to well ... elemental combinations. It seems pretty clear he is using "special" to define elemental combinations that don't fall under the Para or Quasi category. Those are Earth/Air, Water/Fire, Pos/Neg

And just so we aren't paraphrasing the other quotes:

There's still one thing that people haven't yet discovered regarding upgrading Para or Quasi elemental combinations.

Every elemental combination will do something neat at Tier Two, though none reach their full potential until Tier Three.

A Tier Two recipe without a proper Tier Three addition will not unlock the full potential of the item.

[Cowdenicus]

Has anybody tried positive/fire/air yet?

[Mad_Bombardier]

Has anybody tried positive/fire/air yet?pfft... the air will just blow away the radiance, silly! Wait, what? :confused:


Seriously though, I have not seen that combo. IIRC, jjflanigan was working on something similar but had not yet gotten enough Large ingredients for the final altar.

[Big-Dex]

he's talkin about the elemental energy not the Wiz VI

Aesop

Gotcha.. understand now... must read more carefully! :p

[SneakThief]

pfft... the air will just blow away the smoke, silly! :p
Pos/Fire is Radiance. I havent seen it posted. I personally dont seen any logic in adding Air to Radiance, but who knows what whacky things the devs put in there.

[Ironwind]

Given Eladrin's comments and the nature of Para & Quasi elemental planes...
The elemental planes are a ring. Vaguely looking like:

Air
Fire Water
Earth

The para elements exist between the major elements.
Basically where the major elemental planes rub against each other, so:

Air + Fire = smoke
Fire+Earth = lava
Earth+Water = ooze
Water+Air = ice

The quasi elementals are each element combined with either positive or negative:

Air+Positive = lightning
Air+Negative = vacuum
Fire+Positive = radiance
Fire+Negative = ash
Earth+Positive = mineral
Earth+Negative = dust
Water+Positive = steam
Water+Negative = salt

The specials would be:

Air+Earth
Fire+Water
Negative+Positive


So the question that seems so elusive is how do you reinforce in Tier 3 the para-elemental or quasi-elemental that you created with Tier 1 & Tier 2.

If you create Aspect of Smoke in the following method:

Tier 1 Air + Tier 2 Fire

Then how do you increase the smoke with just one more step?

According to the spreadsheet we haven't seen any of the following combinations:

Air + Fire + Air
Air + Fire + Fire
Air + Fire + Positive
Air + Fire + Negative
Fire + Air + Air
Fire + Air + Fire
Fire + Air + Positive
Fire + Air + Negative

These seem like a great place to start.

Let's not start hunting for ultra secret complex patterns until the simplest patterns have been tried.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Pos/Fire is Radiance. I havent seen it posted. I personally dont seen any logic in adding Air to Radiance, but who knows what whacky things the devs put in there.d'oh! that's what I get for typing a quick quip without thinking it through. :o Oh well...

The air will just blow away the Radiance, silly! No, that doesn't make much sense, either. :D

[jjflanigan]

pfft... the air will just blow away the radiance, silly! Wait, what? :confused:


Seriously though, I have not seen that combo. IIRC, jjflanigan was working on something similar but had not yet gotten enough Large ingredients for the final altar.

I've done Air / Fire to get Smoke and am collecting the large ingredients to try to attempt an upgrade to Steam 2.

Also, if you simply added a standard element shard as the tier 3, it would be no more complex than any other upgrade, so I'd place good money on that not being it. We have to figure out a way to add "more smoke" at tier 3 to upgrade the smoke I. Be it through multiple powershards, modified foci, etc. IF you simply made another normal tier 3 shard and shoved it on your item...well, we wouldn't really be "missing something" but we know we are.

[RioRussell]

I've done Air / Fire to get Smoke and am collecting the large ingredients to try to attempt an upgrade to Steam 2.

Also, if you simply added a standard element shard as the tier 3, it would be no more complex than any other upgrade, so I'd place good money on that not being it. We have to figure out a way to add "more smoke" at tier 3 to upgrade the smoke I. Be it through multiple powershards, modified foci, etc. IF you simply made another normal tier 3 shard and shoved it on your item...well, we wouldn't really be "missing something" but we know we are.

My ephiphinal moment of the day. Logically, if you wanted to add 'Smoke II' at tier 3, why wouldn't you put imbued shards of power with each element (one with air and one with fire) into the tier III altar? Maybe I am being overly simple, but if I had the time... this would be where I would go.

Of course, I am working on my first upgrade, and seeing the prices people are paying for large ingredients, I can hear a collective groan go up from the playerbase if this is the case...

[Aesop]

My ephiphinal moment of the day. Logically, if you wanted to add 'Steam II' at tier 3, why wouldn't you put imbued shards of power with each element (one with air and one with fire) into the tier III altar? Maybe I am being overly simple, but if I had the time... this would be where I would go.

Of course, I am working on my first upgrade, and seeing the prices people are paying for large ingredients, I can hear a collective groan go up from the playerbase if this is the case...

I don't think you can add both to one... though I could be wrong

Anyone? BUeller Bueller Bueller.... Bueller


Aesop

[Grimshadow]

Material + Dominion + Earth
Material + Dominion + Positive
Ethereal + Opposition + Negative

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/6149/screenshot00005ml3.jpg

I figured nothing from the ethereal plane would create an effect as a 3rd upgrade, gave existential stalemate a shot anyways. Still loving the +4 AC. Also wanted to show AC doesn't stack from weapon of parrying I am holding, BUT the +1 saves still applies.

[Erinyes]

My ephiphinal moment of the day. Logically, if you wanted to add 'Smoke II' at tier 3, why wouldn't you put imbued shards of power with each element (one with air and one with fire) into the tier III altar? Maybe I am being overly simple, but if I had the time... this would be where I would go.

Of course, I am working on my first upgrade, and seeing the prices people are paying for large ingredients, I can hear a collective groan go up from the playerbase if this is the case...

Hrm. This seems like it might be possible...but I agree with the groans that would follow.

Since Tier I items are easy to come by, maybe someone can test this theroy and try putting two imbued power shards on the same item (at the same time) there first? I doubt anyone, at least for a while, is going to want to wait to complete two imbued superior shards before upgrading an item to tier III.

That being said...wouldn't multiple imbued power shards at each tier be way overpowering? In theroy, you would also get the effects of the shards (+stat, damage, whatever) AND the "Magma II" type effect to boot. For that reason alone, I'm willing to guess this is an unlikely theroy, even though it makes some good sense when thinking in terms of making "more" of a para or quasi aspect.

Still, I'm sure people will have small parts falling out of their ears on the road to tier III upgrades. Has anyone tried more than one shard at the first altar? (aka Tier I)

[jjflanigan]

Hrm. This seems like it might be possible...but I agree with the groans that would follow.

Since Tier I items are easy to come by, maybe someone can test this theroy and try putting two imbued power shards on the same item (at the same time) there first? I doubt anyone, at least for a while, is going to want to wait to complete two imbued superior shards before upgrading an item to tier III.

That being said...wouldn't multiple imbued power shards at each tier be way overpowering? In theroy, you would also get the effects of the shards (+stat, damage, whatever) AND the "Magma II" type effect to boot. For that reason alone, I'm willing to guess this is an unlikely theroy, even though it makes some good sense when thinking in terms of making "more" of a para or quasi aspect.

Still, I'm sure people will have small parts falling out of their ears on the road to tier III upgrades. Has anyone tried more than one shard at the first altar? (aka Tier I)

Who said the altars need to function the same, though? I believe someone earlier on tried doing two at tier 1 (I could be completely mistaken). However, I still maintain that it not working at tier 1 would have no impact on it not working at tier 3. Look at it this way, perhaps the only time you can do a "double imbue" is if you are upgrading a previously existing "double imbue" effect -- i.e. Air / Fire = Smoke, so to upgrade smoke you have to add both air & fire. Prior to that they won't interact properly with the item to allow the "double imbue"

[HAWK480AV]

the info I am looking for is how many say arrow heads/chains ect to make a tier 2 ingreedient.

finding the charts to make the components I have but is there a chart somewhere
that has a number to say make opposition you need this many ( ) bones?ext.

I have looked at the spread sheets and I know what you need ie. arrow heads ext.
but looking for how many i need for all the recipes?

send a pm if you have the link thx.

[UtherSRG]

the info I am looking for is how many say arrow heads/chains ect to make a tier 2 ingreedient.

finding the charts to make the components I have but is there a chart somewhere
that has a number to say make opposition you need this many ( ) bones?ext.

I have looked at the spread sheets and I know what you need ie. arrow heads ext.
but looking for how many i need for all the recipes?

send a pm if you have the link thx.

Can you count to three? Post number 2 shows you the recipe for each focus/essence/gem. 1 focus. 1 essence. 1 gem. The most of any ingredient you will need is 3. Write down the recipe for the 3 ingredients you want to make. Write down the list of the six raw ingredients. Count the number of each ingredient you need next to the list of raw ingredients. Done.

[Turial]

Given Eladrin's comments and the nature of Para & Quasi elemental planes...
The elemental planes are a ring. Vaguely looking like:

Air
Fire Water
Earth

The para elements exist between the major elements.
Basically where the major elemental planes rub against each other, so:

Air + Fire = smoke
Fire+Earth = lava
Earth+Water = ooze
Water+Air = ice

The quasi elementals are each element combined with either positive or negative:

Air+Positive = lightning
Air+Negative = vacuum
Fire+Positive = radiance
Fire+Negative = ash
Earth+Positive = mineral
Earth+Negative = dust
Water+Positive = steam
Water+Negative = salt

The specials would be:

Air+Earth
Fire+Water
Negative+Positive


So the question that seems so elusive is how do you reinforce in Tier 3 the para-elemental or quasi-elemental that you created with Tier 1 & Tier 2.

If you create Aspect of Smoke in the following method:

Tier 1 Air + Tier 2 Fire

Then how do you increase the smoke with just one more step?

According to the spreadsheet we haven't seen any of the following combinations:

Air + Fire + Air
Air + Fire + Fire
Air + Fire + Positive
Air + Fire + Negative
Fire + Air + Air
Fire + Air + Fire
Fire + Air + Positive
Fire + Air + Negative

These seem like a great place to start.

Let's not start hunting for ultra secret complex patterns until the simplest patterns have been tried.


As odd as it may sound we may want to visually map out the locations of the various planes and their interactions. We can then see affinities between the various elements and the tier 2 abilites. This may allow us to see what would further reinforce a particular aspect. (note: yes I do realize that its a crazy idea)

[steelblade]

Aspect of Positive Energy = Positive + Positive = True Resurrection (1 Click)
help? i know i need a power shard but i dont understand this....how can i get X2 positives into a weap?
is it in 2 upgrades or the first?

[Cambo]

Aspect of Positive Energy = Positive + Positive = True Resurrection (1 Click)
help? i know i need a power shard but i dont understand this....how can i get X2 positives into a weap?
is it in 2 upgrades or the first?

You do the first at the Altar of Invasion (with A shard of Power small components etc)
You do the next upgrade at the Altar of Subjugation (Raid part 3) (with a Shard of great power and medium components)



Also on the 3 combo Effect...(YES MORE SPECULATION HEAR with a little restraint)
I think there is a lot of distracting speculation.

The obvious example of Fire + Earth = Magma I + Fire = Magma II (Extra heat)
or simularly Air + Positive = Lightning + Positive = Lightning II
have not been tried (checked ink spreadsheet)....until then I think we are making big leaps and perhaps muddying the waters

[Riggs]

Eladrin has stated that they did not add tier 3 effects for mixing para and quasi elemental effects. Pos or neg and an element is a quasi, and 2 elements is a para.

People keep testing 3 separate foci, and keep getting no tier 3 results.....I see all sorts of comfirmed 'no tier 3' results from a + b + c, or mixing positive and negative and an element (which would be a para-quasi element)

Positive and negative seem to only have any specials when combined with an element - so quasi elemental. Lightning/mineral/steam/radiance.

So far no one seems to have tested Element A + pos/neg + element A, or Element A + element B + element A. Only A + B + B - and most theories here seem to point to reinforcing the first aspect as the most likely way to get a tier 3 effect.

It seems like a fairly obvious route to test out. Once I get enough large ingredients I will be trying Air/Pos/Air.

I am kind of curious why people are still trying to mix 3 different elements or foci after Eladrin is on record as saying they didnt add any special effects for those combinations...

[jjflanigan]

You do the first at the Altar of Invasion (with A shard of Power small components etc)
You do the next upgrade at the Altar of Subjugation (Raid part 3) (with a Shard of great power and medium components)



Also on the 3 combo Effect...(YES MORE SPECULATION HEAR with a little restraint)
I think there is a lot of distracting speculation.

The obvious example of Fire + Earth = Magma I + Fire = Magma II (Extra heat)
or simularly Air + Positive = Lightning + Positive = Lightning II
have not been tried (checked ink spreadsheet)....until then I think we are making big leaps and perhaps muddying the waters

I thought it had already been confirmed by a dev that lightning + positive was not lightning 2 (just as lightning + air was not positive 2). The fact that they have specifically called out that it is more complex to upgrade a "special" tier 2 rather than a straight 1 + 1 + 1 means that it's most likely not going to be a simple adding of a single regular shard. It's really not so much of a leap when we have specifically been told pieces of information that directly point to it.

I just think it would behoove us to try out various things (multiple shards, multiple foci, etc) at tier 3 and consider it separate and distinct.

*EDIT*


It seems like a fairly obvious route to test out. Once I get enough large ingredients I will be trying Air/Pos/Air.

But why would getting "Air in your lightning" be an upgrade when getting "Positive energy in your lightning" was confirmed by a dev as not being an upgrade?

We know that the upgrade path is more complex -- we know that we are missing something regarding the upgrade...following the standard path does nothing to allow it to be either complex or resolve the missing knowledge.

Granted anything someone tries that is new gives us more information...but we need to "think outside the box" a bit here regarding upgrading the special effects.

[Vesuvia]

After some time reading the many pages, Eladrin has stated we are missing something. But what has not been mentioned now I know the double imbued shard in the third altar may sound promising, but if we find out it's wrong also then where do we go. So I have a question, and thus far I don't think anyone has done it, or even mentioned it. Perhaps to much thought and effort is going into the element itself. Perhaps in our blindness to sort these elements together we are missing something very important. Namely being Opposition, Dominion and Escalation. Has anyone attempted mixing all three into one item? I've seen several with two, but not the third after creating the aspect at tier 2. If someone has done this please reply and gun this idea down.

Vesuvia Hellfyre ~ Thac0

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

As odd as it may sound we may want to visually map out the locations of the various planes and their interactions. We can then see affinities between the various elements and the tier 2 abilites. This may allow us to see what would further reinforce a particular aspect. (note: yes I do realize that its a crazy idea)

Something like this perhaps?

http://photos.phase.net/albums/ddo/planes.thumb.png (http://photos.phase.net/albums/ddo/planes.png)

Garth

Disclaimer: found this on google - if it's copyrighted or anything I can remove it.

[Turial]

Yeah that looks much better then what I drew up.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

I thought it had already been confirmed by a dev that lightning + positive was not lightning 2 (just as lightning + air was not positive 2).


But why would getting "Air in your lightning" be an upgrade when getting "Positive energy in your lightning" was confirmed by a dev as not being an upgrade?


Unless I missed a post - I don't believe either of these statements have confirmed by Eladrin. He just said (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1570260#post1570260) that pos/air/air was different from air/air/pos.


We know that the upgrade path is more complex -- we know that we are missing something regarding the upgrade...following the standard path does nothing to allow it to be either complex or resolve the missing knowledge.

We only know that the upgrade path for quasielemental and paraelemental combinations is 'trickier (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1570797#post1570797)' - but we don't know how much more trickier - it might just be a matter of putting in either the 1st or 2nd tier focus at 3rd tier (I'm guessing 1st, since 2nd didn't work here (http://will.phase.net/ddo/items/tier%203/Item%20-EM%20+EM%20+OE.jpg)).

We also know that you can mix gems (e.g. +DM +DM +OM (http://will.phase.net/ddo/items/tier%203/Weapon%20+DM%20+DM%20+OM.jpg)) and it preserves the 3rd tier bonus. It is not confirmed we can mix essences and preserve 2rd tier bonus.


Granted anything someone tries that is new gives us more information...but we need to "think outside the box" a bit here regarding upgrading the special effects.

Indeed. I think it's critical that someone tries A/B/A as soon as possible - e.g. air/pos/air (I need a few more large for this) or fire/earth/fire. This is a combination that has not yet been tried (according to my records (http://will.phase.net/ddo/items/)) and looks both simple and promising, and doesn't require investing two shards at devastation :)

Garth

[Vesuvia]

As a followup to my last post of #1458, I do realize that staying straight to an element will produce an effect regardless if you flip around the opposition/dominion/escalation and material/ethereal. Now since it's just straight element perhaps this is why it's deemed "easy", and when i gets difficult or "special" or "trickier" is when you start combining elements or energies as well as combining opp/dom/esc. Like I previously stated if someone has tried all three in an item please post.

[RioRussell]

Indeed. I think it's critical that someone tries A/B/A as soon as possible - e.g. air/pos/air (I need a few more large for this) or fire/earth/fire. This is a combination that has not yet been tried (according to my records (http://will.phase.net/ddo/items/)) and looks both simple and promising, and doesn't require investing two shards at devastation :)

Garth

Completely agree. I think the logical step (as a community) is to try a fire/earth/fire, but if that adds no direct benefit, the two paths we go down are gem combinations (cheaper to build but complex with the two previous tier possiblities) or a fire/earth/(fire+earth). Seeing as how I have 3 small kids, a wife, and a job... I leave it to the community to invest the time and blaze the trail for me :p

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

As a followup to my last post of #1458, I do realize that staying straight to an element will produce an effect regardless if you flip around the opposition/dominion/escalation and material/ethereal.

Just to be pedantic about this, I don't believe anybody has posted an item with a successful 3rd tier bonus effect with different essences yet.


Now since it's just straight element perhaps this is why it's deemed "easy", and when i gets difficult or "special" or "trickier" is when you start combining elements or energies as well as combining opp/dom/esc. Like I previously stated if someone has tried all three in an item please post.

Yes I agree that this is a possibility, but I still think that exploring the 'simplier' options is a good place to start - once we reach a deadend, the more complex suggestions (e.g. mixing essences/gems, or using 2x shards, or combining shards - all good ideas) can be fully explored.

Garth

[Erinyes]

Indeed. I think it's critical that someone tries A/B/A as soon as possible - e.g. air/pos/air (I need a few more large for this) or fire/earth/fire. This is a combination that has not yet been tried (according to my records (http://will.phase.net/ddo/items/)) and looks both simple and promising, and doesn't require investing two shards at devastation :)

Garth


Agreed. People have to be close, so I think once someone completes one of these paths, we'll have an answer of some sort to build from. And regardless of what idea is better, I'm sure we'll get the answer to an A/B/A combination before we find someone with two imbued superior power shards. :D

[jjflanigan]

Unless I missed a post - I don't believe either of these statements have confirmed by Eladrin. He just said (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1570260#post1570260) that pos/air/air was different from air/air/pos.


He said it in this post --

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1570260&postcount=899

I posited the same question adding air to lighting -- "Pos / air would make lighting, then upgrade it with more air" and he responded -- "You got air in my lightning!"

I then mused about making "big air" (i.e. air/air) and adding positive into that to attain a "bigger lightning" and he responded -- "You got positive energy in my (lots of) air!"

These two statements are why I feel very strongly about my hypothesis regarding the tier 3 upgrade.

[Vesuvia]

I have to agree, that "trickier" does not mean lets start with the most simple things first. Also, like in the previous post about you got lightning in my air and what not, that's basically saying that's not going to work. Besides it's already been said, we're missing something and i HIGHLY doubt that something is putting more air into my lightning. ;)

I HIGHLY believe that either we're needing to lean toward dual power sharding at tier 3, or mixing esc/dom/opp, or something along these lines that's not so heavily focused on the element. Lets be honest here if you have magma the only way to increase magma is fire and earth, not one of each will do. So this suggests two shards or something else that will generate more power in the item itself to make the current magma more powerful.

[Big-Dex]

Here is what we have from Eladrin to date...



A weapon with, say, "Magma I" on it at Tier Two can be upgraded to "Magma II" at Tier Three. Pure elements are the easiest ones to upgrade since you can just slap another Fire onto that Fire stick, and it'll work. Para, Quasi, and "special" elemental combinations are a bit trickier.
Quasi-elements are already pretty obscure. Quasi-para-elements are one step beyond them.
Air + Air + Positive will not result in the same thing as Positive + Positive + Air.
There's still one thing that people haven't yet discovered regarding upgrading Para or Quasi elemental combinations.
Every elemental combination will do something neat at Tier Two, though none reach their full potential until Tier Three. A Tier Two recipe without a proper Tier Three addition will not unlock the full potential of the item. Saying the item is disappointing and needs to be remade from scratch may be a bit excessive - it's still a Tier Two item with an additional benefit from the Tier Three improvement.
Quasi-Para-Elemental combinations (Obsidian, Pumice, etc.) are one step beyond as weird as we wanted to go
There is difference between those two upgrade chains (regarding the mix: pos/air/air and air/air/pos).
You got air in my lightning (to upgrading pos/air = lightning with more air).
You got positive energy in my (lots of) air (to upgrading air/air (/pos) would make bigger air)
Quasi-elemental, para-elemental, and "special" tier three upgrade paths exist, and tend to have superior abilities to the "easy" elemental upgrades.
If you put Positive on it at stage one, you have quite a number of possibilities open to you at the end.
All of them can be successfully upgraded (to the querey "Can you confirm whether all 2nd tier para or quasi elemental combinations can be successfully upgraded into a 3rd tier 'bonus special effect', or just some of them
That should be showing something as a tier three Earth upgrade. It's possible the description was accidentally set to "don't display" or otherwise acting oddly, I'll have someone investigate it (regarding the EEE on an item giving a hidden form of good guard).
Re: Horns Someone was a noob and didn't take them out of the treasure tables. They'll be given a (useful) use in the future.
To these I add the following tidbit of information. Mind you, I have asked Eladrin if I could release the contents of this PM, but he never replied. But, I have waited 'til I had conducted my own experiments to confirm or deny.

I asked Eladrin the following...


Can more than one imbued shard of power be applied to a green steel blank at each altar? More specifically, can three shards of power be applied at each altar, since there are two additional empty slots in the device when you upgrade an item.To which he replied...


Very careful wording: All imbuing recipes that include a greensteel weapon or item use only one shard of power.That is an exact quote, to include the phrase "Very careful wording:" Now... perhaps you can help me with the meaning.

I can independently and irrefutably confirm that 2 imbued shards of power cannot be applied to a green steel blank on the Altar of Invasion. I have just gotten three, but need to create a new green steel blank to test this theory. I will update this when I find out, so check back.

I can independently confirm that 2 imbued shards of power cannot be combined into a 3rd blank shard of power on the Altar of Invasion. I tried wearing either the blank shard or the imbued shard in my trinket spot while attempting this too. I have also tested combining 3 imbued shards of power into a blank shard of power. That did not work either.

I can independently confirm that I tested all of the following Soul Gems: Weak Essences of Fire, Weak Essence of Earth, Weak Essence of Dominion, Essence of Fire and Essence of Earth. None of them could be placed in the Altar of Invastion or the Altar of Subjugation. I did not try to put one in when upgrading a blank, but plan to and will update when I do.

So, hopefully this information helps some. BTW, the three imbued shards were F/D/M, E/D/M, F/D/M.

So, any other theories for me to test while I have the ability, let me know. BTW, I almost have enough items to run the same tests on the Altar of Subjugation (Teir 2), which I will do while I have the stuffs.

Dex from Semper Fi (Argo)
<sigh> Now to start focusing on Large ingredients and part 4-5...

[Avernus]

I didn't get any feedback on my post, so I'm going to re-post in the hopes that no one saw it originally:

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1581624&postcount=1350

Someone who has done a lot of crafting please investigate this idea for me...I have a lot of large ingredients to obtain before I can update the goggles I currently have from Tier 2 to Tier 3.

[SteeleTrueheart]

I can independently and irrefutably confirm that 2 imbued shards of power cannot be applied to a green steel blank on the Altar of Invasion. I have just gotten three, but need to create a new green steel blank to test this theory. I will update this when I find out, so check back.

I can independently confirm that 2 imbued shards of power cannot be combined into a 3rd blank shard of power on the Altar of Invasion. I tried wearing either the blank shard or the imbued shard in my trinket spot while attempting this too. I have also tested combining 3 imbued shards of power into a blank shard of power. That did not work either.

I can independently confirm that I tested all of the following Soul Gems: Weak Essences of Fire, Weak Essence of Earth, Weak Essence of Dominion, Essence of Fire and Essence of Earth. None of them could be placed in the Altar of Invastion or the Altar of Subjugation. I did not try to put one in when upgrading a blank, but plan to and will update when I do.

So, hopefully this information helps some.

So, any other theories for me to test while I have the ability, let me know. BTW, I almost have enough items to run the same tests on the Altar of Subjugation (Teir 2), which I will do while I have the stuffs.

Dex from Semper Fi (Argo)
<sigh> Now to start focusing on Large ingredients and part 4-5...[/COLOR]


Has anyone tried using an imbued shard with gem/essence/focus/energy cell to more powerfully imbue it?

[Big-Dex]

Has anyone tried using an imbued shard with gem/essence/focus/energy cell to more powerfully imbue it?


What do you mean by gem/essence/focus/energy "cell"???

Let me know and I will gladly try it.

[Boulderun]

What do you mean by gem/essence/focus/energy "cell"???

Let me know and I will gladly try it.

Shavarath energy cell + Shard of Power + Focus of Element + Gem of Thingy + Whatever Essence = Shard of Power with a formula imbued.

Then run the same recipe again but with the imbued Shard in position 2 instead of a fresh one.

(No, the ingredient position doesn't matter - just trying to stay consistent)

Alternately, try it again on the previously-imbued Shard but change the element.

[Big-Dex]

Shavarath energy cell + Shard of Power + Focus of Element + Gem of Thingy + Whatever Essence = Shard of Power with a formula imbued.

Then run the same recipe again but with the imbued Shard in position 2 instead of a fresh one.

(No, the ingredient position doesn't matter - just trying to stay consistent)

Alternately, try it again on the previously-imbued Shard but change the element.


OKAY. . . I can try this . . . but it is gonna take me a few more ingredient runs to pull the necessary ingredients. I am shy eight ingredients now... if anyone on ARGO wants to contribute to this science project... I need...


2 small bones
1 small chain
1 small scale
3 small shrapnel
1 small stone
Send them to DEX. If noone wants to contribute (which is fine) ... it will take me a couple of days to pull this laundry list together. I have already spent enough PP on all these science experiments, so I am not paying any more exuberant auction house prices. ;)

[smithers]

I have spent a lot of time experimenting with both types of crafting and I think the community is very close to cracking tier 3. Been checking this thread every morning over coffee and think we're almost there. Actually I'm feeling pretty good about my latest idea (had to scratch my soul gem hypothesis yesterday when essense of earth and strong essence of earth were rejected from all altars)

My new proposal, along with reasoning, follows.

To achieve a tier 3 quasi or para combo, when embuing your supreme shard omit the energy cell and include essences for both relevant elements.

Here are the supporting arguments:

Logically this makes the most sense to me, since it follows the model of embuing a single shard with selected magical energies which can then be applied to your item. (i.e. essence of lightning is not so different from essence of fire, and a single shard should be able to contain either)
The official crafting intro (http://www.ddo.com/articles/945) contains this sentence, which I cite as the best evidence for my proposal: In most recipes, you’ll usually need to include an Energy Cell to power the device, though some recipes contain enough magic on their own to power the altar. In the walkthrough the context for this statement was the blank creation (Eberron) process, but the wording seems significant to me. Note it pointedly does not say "for other recipes you will require", and so far we haven't seen any other occasions where power can be omitted.
From a cost perspective, this requires 4 additional large ingredients, which would be fair for items that "tend to be" a little more powerful than the straight elemental upgrades. I was not very convinced by suggestions that 2 fully charged shards would work, given how powerful the "straight" upgrades are. A recipe requiring 24 large ingredients would be either overpowered for the game or overpriced for the power IMO.


Fortunately, this can be tested without the extreme investment of collecting 24 large ingredients, and if the combination fails there should be nothing lost. If I am wrong I would expect the combination won't mix at all; no harm done. Finally, this is an experiment that some friends/guildies should be able to collaborate on, since a bound shard will only be produced on success (so maybe you can borrow the ingredients or the missing essence; if the combination fails it can be returned. If it succeeds then you have a bound shard, but hey, progress!)

I urge someone who is in a position to do this to please try this approach and publish your results. I only have 5 or so larges, but I'll be talking to guildies to see who is in the best position to try Tier3 on a quasi or para item. Might take a bit longer on my end...

Good mixing!

Halfpint / Saigo / MrTea / Coldpint / Ironpint of Eternal Wrath on Sarlona

[Cambo]

This is what Im hoping for in my Greatsword upgrade path.
Holy Acid Burst Acid Blast Greatsword of Flesh to stone.

Positive + Earth = Aspect of Mineral (Stone Skin x 3) + Earth (Ie making it more mineralised....) = Flesh to stone on random hit. YES YES STILL SPECULATIVE, NOTHING PROVEN

I still think its just adding the right tier 2 mix and right tier 3 element and not some uber multi add on combo mixture ;)

Of course my combination above also uses the same essence and gem for the whole upgrade...so if i ever get there (ready to do tier 2 right now) then we will see

[Cambo]

I didn't get any feedback on my post, so I'm going to re-post in the hopes that no one saw it originally:

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1581624&postcount=1350

Someone who has done a lot of crafting please investigate this idea for me...I have a lot of large ingredients to obtain before I can update the goggles I currently have from Tier 2 to Tier 3.

IMO using all 3 gems would reduce the power of the item (a bit like multiclassing 5 levles of 3 classes) so wouldnt be the right track for an UBER tier 3 effect.

[Cambo]

[quote=jperz;1585376]



<B>
Very careful wording: All imbuing recipes that include a greensteel weapon or item use only one shard of power.That is an exact quote, to include the phrase "Very careful wording:" Now... perhaps you can help me with the meaning.</B>
[\quote]

Nice questioning by the way.

Interpretaion....only 1 "shard of power"...what about "great shard of power" or "supreme shard of power"...could that be the difference in his very careful wording ?

[joeuhuh]

the combining 2 shards in tier 3 alter is a very attractive thing if u could gtet benefit of both shards- but this sounds extremel,y powerful and thus unlikely and also sounds extremely hard to do i wonder if instead of makin two imbued shards-- perhaps somone could make 2 focuses( foci)that are like the esences in their first 2 upgrades and put them in machine with a batery and see if u can combine them to make a focus of smoke or lightning or whatever then use that focus to imbue the shard for third tier upgrade-- the thing that strikes me about this thing is its much easier to test than 2 shards of power once u imbue ur shard u ahve to use the sucker or throw it away its bound but u can try to combine two focuses and if it doesnt work all u wasted was a battery

[Boldrin]

Very careful wording: All imbuing recipes that include a greensteel weapon or item use only one shard of power.That is an exact quote, to include the phrase "Very careful wording:" Now... perhaps you can help me with the meaning.[/COLOR]


I read something different into this.... How about making 3 different Imbued shards , or even 2 , and trying to combine them, in effect making 1 shard with higher power to put on your Green Steel blank. Don't put the shard on the green steel until you know it's fully upgraded. I have a feeling a fire shard and an ice shard will make a different shard, like tempered shard. Which could then be imbued from the start. Then going 3 tiers of tempered may be something "Special" I plan on trying this with a weapon as soon as I have an extra shard, been giving them all away cuz they bind. And his specific wording of Shard of Power, not greater or supreme shards???? it's a conspiracy!!!

[smithers]

the combining 2 shards in tier 3 alter is a very attractive thing if u could gtet benefit of both shards- but this sounds extremel,y powerful and thus unlikely and also sounds extremely hard to do i wonder if instead of makin two imbued shards-- perhaps somone could make 2 focuses( foci)that are like the esences in their first 2 upgrades and put them in machine with a batery and see if u can combine them to make a focus of smoke or lightning or whatever then use that focus to imbue the shard for third tier upgrade-- the thing that strikes me about this thing is its much easier to test than 2 shards of power once u imbue ur shard u ahve to use the sucker or throw it away its bound but u can try to combine two focuses and if it doesnt work all u wasted was a battery

Yeah, combining 2 foci to make a para or quasi focus is also worth trying. Pretty sure it's either this or the self-powering dual foci I suggested above.

By the way, I wouldn't expect to get "benefit of both shards"; I'd expect nothing for either shock or positive and instead would expect a lightning effect or two...

[Cambo]

Heard a roumor that one of the guys from the other threads on the topic have the tier 3 thing sorted but havent posted yet.
If anyone knows them could we get an update ;)

[MysticTheurge]

I asked Eladrin the following...


Can more than one imbued shard of power be applied to a green steel blank at each altar? More specifically, can three shards of power be applied at each altar, since there are two additional empty slots in the device when you upgrade an item.To which he replied...


Very careful wording: All imbuing recipes that include a greensteel weapon or item use only one shard of power.That is an exact quote, to include the phrase "Very careful wording:" Now... perhaps you can help me with the meaning.

To me, this says that there is another set of recipes out there that we haven't figured out yet that don't involve a green steel item.

Possibility 1) A supreme shard can be imbued multiple times. Perform the imbuing process once, then perform it again.

Possibility 2) There's a recipe involving two shards but not a green steel item. In some way, you can make two imbued shards and then combine them into a single shard. Has anyone tried putting imbued Great Shards in the altar of invasion? Perhaps you can combine two smaller shards into a single supreme shard.

(I'm actually leaning towards possibility 2, since it would make the most sense with Eladrin's statement above. His statement implies that there are recipes involving two-plus shards, but that they don't also include a green steel weapon at the same time.)

It seems highly likely to me that the way to find para- or quasi- tier III effects is not simply to find the right single focus to add, but that it involves somehow mixing two different focuses into a single shard.

[ENGRAV0]

You know, tha "Very Careful Wording" COULD refer to the WORD "Weapon".

[Boldrin]

You know, tha "Very Careful Wording" COULD refer to the WORD "Weapon".

Says weapon or item, covering all green steel things

[squiddaddy]

To me, this says that there is another set of recipes out there that we haven't figured out yet that don't involve a green steel item.

Possibility 1) A supreme shard can be imbued multiple times. Perform the imbuing process once, then perform it again.

Possibility 2) There's a recipe involving two shards but not a green steel item. In some way, you can make two imbued shards and then combine them into a single shard. Has anyone tried putting imbued Great Shards in the altar of invasion? Perhaps you can combine two smaller shards into a single supreme shard.

(I'm actually leaning towards possibility 2, since it would make the most sense with Eladrin's statement above. His statement implies that there are recipes involving two-plus shards, but that they don't also include a green steel weapon at the same time.)

It seems highly likely to me that the way to find para- or quasi- tier III effects is not simply to find the right single focus to add, but that it involves somehow mixing two different focuses into a single shard.

3) greensteel recipes may contain something in addition to item+shard+cell, anyone tried "item+shard+cell+fire+water"
or "item+shard(fire)+cell+water"?

4) shards may be imbued differently than the current pattern, for example "shard+cell+fire+water+opposition"
or "shard+cell+fire+fire+water"
forgive me if i'm wrong here but has the list of combinations here actually been exhausted? or have we just found
a pattern and ignored the rest?

5) you may combine an item with a shard more than once.

these possibilities leave room for a "dominant" focus. It seems improbable that you could get two tier 3 upgrades+a bonus. so one must be more distinct somehow. of course this could determined by tier one order. or perhaps even that you get two upgrades and no bonus.

regarding the order of upgrades, I think this is unlikely to yield anything. It seems clear to me from the responses given that after the second tier upgrade you no longer have focus/focus, you have something new. so air/positive becomes lightning, and only by adding lightning will you gain anything. assuming (hoping) here we're not going any further down the combinations path.

this is for my benefit only, as i haven't been following this closely, but taking a step back away from alternative recipes, has anyone simply tried a unique elemental combination? there are only 4 and seem to me to be prime suspects for specialness
air fire water
air fire earth
air water earth
fire water earth....

for the record, my money is on simply imbuing a shard a second time, either with "imbued shard+imbued shard+cell(maybe)"
or "imbued shard+ingredients+cell(maybe)"
my vorpal double mace is on shard+shard as it is consistant with all the clues we've been given, and i don't rate expense as an excuse not to. after all how many antique bronze tokens did you collect before they admitted it was a pointless?

[squiddaddy]

double post

[Naso24]

"Very careful wording: All imbuing recipes that include a greensteel weapon or item use only one shard of power."

I keyed in on the word "use". This might mean that while multiples can be placed in the altar, only one is consumed.

The other interesting word is "one".

It could mean that if multiples are to be used, only one is a shard of power, while the other is a great or superior.

[MysticTheurge]

these possibilities leave room for a "dominant" focus. It seems improbable that you could get two tier 3 upgrades+a bonus. so one must be more distinct somehow. of course this could determined by tier one order. or perhaps even that you get two upgrades and no bonus.

It is possible that a "Magma" shard gives a single tier III upgrade that is different from either the Fire or the Earth upgrades of the same sort.

[squiddaddy]

"Very careful wording: All imbuing recipes that include a greensteel weapon or item use only one shard of power."

I keyed in on the word "use". This might mean that while multiples can be placed in the altar, only one is consumed.

The other interesting word is "one".

It could mean that if multiples are to be used, only one is a shard of power, while the other is a great or superior.

both interpretations seem very unlikely to me, but the second one brings up another possibility.

"greensteel weapon....shard of power", perhaps this sentence refers only to tier 1 upgrades.
this still leaves room for shard+shard+item at tier 3. oh noes!

[MysticTheurge]

"greensteel weapon....shard of power", perhaps this sentence refers only to tier 1 upgrades.
this still leaves room for shard+shard+item at tier 3. oh noes!

It seems likely that when Eladrin says "Shard of Power" he means any kind of shard of power, regardless of type. A Supreme Shard of Power is still a Shard of Power, in the same way that a Yellow School Bus is still a School Bus.

[Wulf_Ratbane]

Yes I agree that this is a possibility, but I still think that exploring the 'simplier' options is a good place to start - once we reach a deadend, the more complex suggestions (e.g. mixing essences/gems, or using 2x shards, or combining shards - all good ideas) can be fully explored.

I'm not even in the ballpark as far as doing any of my own testing goes.

But I just wanted to point this out:

Far better to have all the ingredients you need at Tier 3-- including two shards of Power. Then you can test two shards at once, and if it doesn't work, you're no worse off. Move to test #2 and try A>B>A.

If you test A>B>A first, it's definitely going to do something and consume your ingredients, and then you're back at square 1 for testing the two shard theory.

That's a lot more work to recover from.

Basically, if you want to experiment, experiment with entirely new recipes, since they are the most likely to return your ingredients to you.

This is the path of wisdom that Smithers seems to be following. Look how much information he gathered by not using his ingredients on something that-- from a recipe standpoint-- we already know is going to "work" whether or not it unlocks a Special.

[Cambo]

Heard a roumor that one of the guys from the other threads on the topic have the tier 3 thing sorted but havent posted yet.
If anyone knows them could we get an update ;)


We should probably keep speculation down now until we get some more results.
Too many pages confusing people and little real list information in the last 2 pages of posts.

[squiddaddy]

It is possible that a "Magma" shard gives a single tier III upgrade that is different from either the Fire or the Earth upgrades of the same sort.

corrected. This would increase the number of effects by a large amount.
there are 14 now, if you assume only the foci matters and the effects are new it becomes 44.
it seems unlikely they could give bonuses within the current set, greater magma guard, greater salt guard etc etc
the other alternative is with gem/essence still mattering which yields a number of effects too large for me to figure out without looking like a loser.

[squiddaddy]

It seems likely that when Eladrin says "Shard of Power" he means any kind of shard of power, regardless of type. A Supreme Shard of Power is still a Shard of Power, in the same way that a Yellow School Bus is still a School Bus.

lol yeah i was overinterpreting the sentence, there was a clue.
And just to be pendantic for a second, a yellow school bus is only a "still a school bus" as long as you restrict yourself to a certain list of characteristics.
Is an armored schoolbus with a howitzer on top a school bus or a tank? both? neither? tankbus FTW!
how about a schoolbus that doesn't drive children to school anymore?
one mans bent longsword is another mans scimitar.

[Grimshadow]

Maybe Eldarin was refering to making a trinket item. You can already equipt it in that slot. Has anyone tried to combine charged shards onto a blank? I am thinking if you can it would create the trinket and allow to put it into the next tier altar.

[apious1]

According to the Devs, there are three types of elemental upgrades: Para, Quasi, and "special". My vocabulary is pretty good but I keep getting caught up on the definitions for Para and Quasi. Here are the definitions according to Merriam Webster:
Para - beside : alongside of
Quasi - having some resemblance usually by possession of certain attributes

Would it be possible for the Dev's to simply explain a little further as to what "Para" and "Quasi" are exactly and maybe provide an example?

I assume by "Para" they mean the same elements are used all three times, e.g. Air + Air + Air and Quasi would be a combo of various elements, e.g. Fire + Earth + "X".

Finally, this leaves "special". They have said that there are no "Para-Quasi" combo's, e.g. Air + Air + "X". So what is "special"? Are "Positive" and "Negative" not considered elements and therefore equal "special"?

BTW, I had a friend research this and he found a document which states "Para" is the combining of two elements and "Quasi" is the combining of three elements. If this is the case then there are technically four possible elemental combo's Linear, Para, Quasi, and "special".

I am just thinking out loud but I hope the Dev's respond with an answer to my first question just to help clarify what they have already said.

[stockwizard5]

1. There are already rituals that do not require a power cell at the Stone of Change - maybe thats the reference?

2. Exisitential Stalemate is +6 WIS to weapons and +4 WIS to items AND SCEPTORS (at least)

[MysticTheurge]

Would it be possible for the Dev's to simply explain a little further as to what "Para" and "Quasi" are exactly and maybe provide an example?

In traditional D&D cosmology, a paraelement is one composed of two of the four primary elements. They are:

Fire + Earth = Magma
Earth + Water = Ooze
Water + Air = Ice
Air + Fire = Smoke

The quasielements are composed of one of the four primary elements and either positive or negative energy. The are:

Fire + Positive = Radiance
Fire + Negative = Ash
Earth + Positive = Mineral
Earth + Negative = Dust
Water + Positive = Steam
Water + Negative = Salt
Air + Positive = Lightning
Air + Negative = Vacuum

There are also some para-quasi-elements you can create by combining the four paraelements (Magma, Ooze, Ice, Smoke) with positive and negative energy, but since Eladrin has said those aren't involved I won't go into them here.

[Big-Dex]

Maybe Eldarin was refering to making a trinket item. You can already equipt it in that slot. Has anyone tried to combine charged shards onto a blank? I am thinking if you can it would create the trinket and allow to put it into the next tier altar.

Yes... I have tried this on the Altar of Invasion. Double check my post (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1585376&postcount=1468).


5) you may combine an item with a shard more than once.

I have tried this on the Altar of Invasion (Teir 1) and on the Altar of Subjugation (Teir 2). No go.


It could mean that if multiples are to be used, only one is a shard of power, while the other is a great or superior.

If memory serves me right, I tried this on the Altar of Invasion (Teir 1) with a great shard of power. No go. (But I will double check to be sure next time I am in there).


Possibility 2) There's a recipe involving two shards but not a green steel item. In some way, you can make two imbued shards and then combine them into a single shard. Has anyone tried putting imbued Great Shards in the altar of invasion? Perhaps you can combine two smaller shards into a single supreme shard.

Tried part 1 of this. No go. Have not tried an imbued great shard into the Altar of Invasion. I can try this in my next two runs. Have not tried the supreme shard.


I read something different into this.... How about making 3 different Imbued shards , or even 2 , and trying to combine them, in effect making 1 shard with higher power to put on your Green Steel blank.

Tried and failed. This was the premise of my original experiment based on Eladrin's carefully worded phrase. Please read original post (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1585376&postcount=1468).

I will get back to you on the results of today's testing later tonight. We will crack this nut at some point here... In the meanwhile...

[MysticTheurge]

Tried part 1 of this. No go. Have not tried an imbued great shard into the Altar of Invasion. I can try this in my next two runs. Have not tried the supreme shard.

Heh, weird. I actually meant to say the Altar of Devestation. The theory being that maybe you can combine to two smaller shards into one bigger shard. If that is possible it seems likely that you'd have to do it at the altar for the bigger shard.