Stone of Change - Eldritch Rituals Cookbook

[ChildrenofBodom]

What is the water special effect if you go water all 3? I'm doing it on my longbow but I want to see if I'm doing anything someone hasn't done yet.

[UtherSRG]

What is the water special effect if you go water all 3? I'm doing it on my longbow but I want to see if I'm doing anything someone hasn't done yet.

The only information we know is listed in message #3 of this thread. To wit:



Greater Disruption Guard (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1558476&postcount=489) = Positive + Positive + Positive
Incineration (http://ddoimages.level3.turbine.com/files/61/93/18/80/1326.jpg) = Fire + Fire + Fire
Earth Grab (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1557120&postcount=1) = Earth + Earth + Earth


So no, we don't know Water + Water + Water.

[DemonMage]

did you mean deflection ? That is named so I would not expect it to stack but it would be nice to see if the Saving throw bonus stscked because it is unamed.

Spec optics are +3 deflection +4 resistance to reflex. So saying the save bonus didn't stack with them would mean it's resistance.

[Cambo]

Spec optics are +3 deflection +4 resistance to reflex. So saying the save bonus didn't stack with them would mean it's resistance.


Sorry thought spec optics wee just deflection...Thanks for the clarification (god im a noob)

[Cambo]

Got this from 12:05 AM Draiden in a PM


2nd upgrade (medium):
Material-Opposition-Positive
+20% Healing Amplification

[Borror0]

2nd upgrade (medium):
Material-Opposition-Positive
+20% Healing Amplification

I knew it!

Context: I argued with someone that Positive would be +% to healing. Seems I'm right. :) /dance

[MysticTheurge]

I knew it!

Context: I argued with someone that Positive would be +% to healing. Seems I'm right. :) /dance

We're going to have to rename you Borror1. ;)

[Borror0]

We're going to have to rename you Borror1. ;)

Yay!! I'll have to stop at Borror42 though.

[juniorpfactors]

Bor just try getting a few components and make something.....screenshot your item to prove you really log into DDO and not just the Forums:cool:

jr

[Borror0]

Bor just try getting a few components and make something.....screenshot your item to prove you really log into DDO and not just the Forums:cool:

No!!!:rolleyes:

I'll try?:D

[UtherSRG]

Got this from 12:05 AM Draiden in a PM


2nd upgrade (medium):
Material-Opposition-Positive
+20% Healing Amplification

What's the 1st upgrade for MOP?

[Borror0]

What's the 1st upgrade for MOP?

He probably did something else or something already known for the first one.

[ChildrenofBodom]

The only information we know is listed in message #3 of this thread. To wit:



So no, we don't know Water + Water + Water.

Sweet, that's what I'll do then to help out.

[Cambo]

I knew it!

Context: I argued with someone that Positive would be +% to healing. Seems I'm right. :) /dance

Make enough guesses and you will get 1 right ;)

REGARDING MOP Lieutenant upgrade - yes he did something different...

The correct terminologies for the upgrades should be

Lieutenant
Great Commander
Supreme Tyrant


I have put full instructions for Making Supreme tyrant Wizardry VI item here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1519615&postcount=6)as many people want these
Still to type out the last section (Supreme Upgrade)
Please advise if it needs correction or clarification if anyone has a moment to read it.

[MysticTheurge]

What's the 1st upgrade for MOP?


He probably did something else or something already known for the first one.

But if I had to guess, I'd say +10% healing amplification.

[Borror0]

But if I had to guess, I'd say +10% healing amplification.

I'd say 15%. Negative Absorption is 15%, so an increment of 5%, so 25% for the third upgrade.

[Turial]

What does healing amplification do? Is it like potency and it just increases the amount of damage?

[Snoggy]

Shard Formulation
** Since the tier 1 AC does not stack with the tier 2 AC (And presumably not with Tier 3) Unless you are interested in only 1 AC bonus and picking something else for the other tiers it is a waste to follow the same path. Pick only the level of AC bonus that you want to end up with and choose other options for other upgrades.


First off ... great thread. Great work by everyone involved. I come back to this thread a few times a day just to see what successes people are having with the raid. It's almost as fun as making my own item through the raid.

:)

Now onto my question ... has anyone made the tier 3 AC upgrade yet? I'm still collecting ingredients (only have my blank made so far) and right now was considering going Holy Damage in tier 1, Acid Burst (or shocking burst) in tier 2, and AC upgrade in Tier 3. I'd just like to know if anyone made a tier 3 AC upgrade yet to know if it indeed does exist and if it is indeed 3 to AC.

Thanks!

[Borror0]

What does healing amplification do? Is it like potency and it just increases the amount of damage?

My guess is that's it's like Human Recovery.

[ChildrenofBodom]

What does healing amplification do? Is it like potency and it just increases the amount of damage?

Let's say a cleric casted a cure light on you. The cleric heals you for 10 damage, if you have the healing amplification on then that 10 damage does 11 damage. 10% of 10 is 1, 10 + 1 = 11. It's like the human enhancement. Just amplifies how much you get healed.


EDIT:

My guess is that's it's like Human Recovery.

Correct.

[SneakThief]

I'd say 15%. Negative Absorption is 15%, so an increment of 5%, so 25% for the third upgrade.
Yeah but Acid is only 5% so we know they dont have to be the same.

[Cambo]

First off ... great thread. Great work by everyone involved. I come back to this thread a few times a day just to see what successes people are having with the raid. It's almost as fun as making my own item through the raid.

:)

Now onto my question ... has anyone made the tier 3 AC upgrade yet? I'm still collecting ingredients (only have my blank made so far) and right now was considering going Holy Damage in tier 1, Acid Burst (or shocking burst) in tier 2, and AC upgrade in Tier 3. I'd just like to know if anyone made a tier 3 AC upgrade yet to know if it indeed does exist and if it is indeed 3 to AC.

Thanks!

Nobody has confirmed + 3 AC but it is very likelywith the following Spreme Upgrades

Ethereal + Opposition + Earth= Wpn: ??+3 AC** -:- Equip:
Ethereal + Opposition + Positive = Wpn: ??+3 AC** -:- Equip:
Ethereal + Opposition + Negative = Wpn: ??+3 AC** -:- Equip:

just dont sue me if its wrong..

[Mad_Bombardier]

But if I had to guess, I'd say +10% healing amplification.But, then would tier1 10% stack with tier2 20% for total 30%? Or is it 10%+10% = 20%? (not that MT can answer directly, just wondering. :))

[Borror0]

But, then would tier1 10% stack with tier2 20% for total 30%? Or is it 10%+10% = 20%? (not that MT can answer directly, just wondering. :))

And would be:

You are healed of 100 HP by Cleanup.
You have Human Improved Recovery I, you are healed of 110.
You have +10% Healing Amplification, you are healed of 121.
You have +20% Healing Amplification, you are healed of 145.

Or

You are healed of 100 HP by Cleanup.
You have Human Improved Recovery I, you are healed of 110.
You have +10% Healing Amplification, you are healed of 120.
You have +20% Healing Amplification, you are healed of 130.

But doubt it'd stack.

[Cambo]

Nothing to see

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Looking at the earth/earth/earth weapon combo with 3rd upgrade effect 'Earthgrab' moves my thinking on this. I believe this indicates (from the description) that there will be a set of 3rd upgrade special effects for weapons, and a different set for items. I base this off of the "When this weapon is used .." portion of the description.


I agree. Look at the 'greater disruption guard' on a +EE/+EE/+EE item - perhaps this becomes just 'greater disruption' on a weapon. In addition, earthgrab might become 'chance of earthgrab on being hit'.

To those people maintaining tables/spreadsheets, can you distinguish special effects between items and weapons please.

Cheers,

Garth

[Petro]

My eyes are blurry from reading trying to find an answer to a question I have so I'll ask it here. Sorry if this has been asked and answered already.

What happens when you use the same Item in the same alter with different upgrades? Do the upgrades stay or do they get replaced with the most recent upgrade. Example, say I want to make a Green Cloak and use the alter of invasion to imbue the cloak with 4 attributes from that alter. Is it possible to make a cloak with Greater Fire, Acid, Lightning, Cold resistance?

Thanks

[MysticTheurge]

What happens when you use the same Item in the same alter with different upgrades? Do the upgrades stay or do they get replaced with the most recent upgrade. Example, say I want to make a Green Cloak and use the alter of invasion to imbue the cloak with 4 attributes from that alter. Is it possible to make a cloak with Greater Fire, Acid, Lightning, Cold resistance?

I've been told you cannot re-enchant an item at the same altar and attempting to do so just wastes your power cell.

(But I can't confirm this from personal experience.)

[Cambo]

I agree. Look at the 'greater disruption guard' on a +EE/+EE/+EE item - perhaps this becomes just 'greater disruption' on a weapon. In addition, earthgrab might become 'chance of earthgrab on being hit'.

To those people maintaining tables/spreadsheets, can you distinguish special effects between items and weapons please.

Cheers,

Garth


As soon as somebody shows results that are significantly different between the 2 items I will break up the effects.
To date its only been a very slight variation on tempered i think (-2Wis)

[Angelus_dead]

To those people maintaining tables/spreadsheets, can you distinguish special effects between items and weapons please.
I'm sure they'll make that distinction just as soon as anyone reports using the same 3rd tier combo on a weapon and a clothing.

[Borror0]

I'm sure they'll make that distinction just as soon as anyone reports using the same 3rd tier combo on a weapon and a clothing.

We already show on the wiki from what it comes from, I'm sure others do the same. the only spreadsheet I check is CaptGrim's so I cannot tell.

[CaptGrim]

We already show on the wiki from what it comes from, I'm sure others do the same. the only spreadsheet I check is CaptGrim's so I cannot tell.

Thanks buddy :D

As of yet there is only one difference that I know about(for the affinitys), and that's from neg + positive affinities.(+4 wis on an item and not +6 like on a weapon)

Otherwise all special effects are divided(at least on mine).

[Borror0]

Otherwise all special effects are divided (at least on mine)

Yeah, you're missing Earthgrab on Devastation.

[Inkblack]

... the only spreadsheet I check is CaptGrim's so I cannot tell.

Arrgh! ;)

Shameless Plug: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pLaIqDL_IzJRx5CcCEpCaYg

:D

[Valgron]

Ok, I know it is somewhere, but I cant find it, so I will ask:

Has anyone done anything with the ingredients Shaverath Dirt, or Polished Marble Stone?

[Mad_Bombardier]

Has anyone done anything with the ingredients Shaverath Dirt, or Polished Marble Stone?Those are just the tutorial ingredients.

[Valgron]

Ok, that's what I thought. Thanks!

[Mearamar]

I have the both levels of regen on a pair of bracers. The regen does not stack.. so beware...

[Draiden]

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/161/weapon2ndtierupgradeqn7.th.jpg (http://img89.imageshack.us/my.php?image=weapon2ndtierupgradeqn7.jpg)

Weapon Upgrade
Ethereal+Escalation+Positive for 1st tier, then
Material+Oposition+Positive for 2nd tier

[stz]

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/6100/conskillhpgoggset1.jpg

Material + Escalation + Earth all the way

[Snoggy]

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/6100/conskillhpgoggset1.jpg

Material + Escalation + Earth all the way

Wow. So that's 30 hps and +6 stackable Constitution? On goggles?

Yummy!

[UtherSRG]

Wow. So that's 30 hps and +6 stackable Constitution? On goggles?

Yummy!

No, +45 HP and +6 CON skills... which is Concentration.

[Tanka]

No, +45 HP and +6 CON skills... which is Concentration.
Quite handy for a caster, I'd say.

[Cambo]

Wow. So that's 30 hps and +6 stackable Constitution? On goggles?

Yummy!


No Tier 3 Effect ??? for Earth Earth Earth on an item !!!!!!


Positive + Positive + Positive = Wpn: Greater Disruption Guard (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1558476&postcount=489) Item:
Fire + Fire + Fire = Wpn: Incineration (http://ddoimages.level3.turbine.com/files/61/93/18/80/1326.jpg) Item:
Earth + Earth + Earth= Wpn: Earth Grab (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1557120&postcount=1) Item: No Effect

[MysticTheurge]

No Tier 3 Effect ??? for Earth Earth Earth on an item !!!!!!

Disappointing indeed.

[nbhs275]

No Tier 3 Effect ??? for Earth Earth Earth on an item !!!!!!


Positive + Positive + Positive = Wpn: Greater Disruption Guard (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1558476&postcount=489) Item:
Fire + Fire + Fire = Wpn: Incineration (http://ddoimages.level3.turbine.com/files/61/93/18/80/1326.jpg) Item:
Earth + Earth + Earth= Wpn: Earth Grab (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1557120&postcount=1) Item: No Effect

that doesnt seem right...

[nbhs275]

also, has anyone found out what the penelty to wearing two items at the same time is yet?

[Tanka]

also, has anyone found out what the penelty to wearing two items at the same time is yet?
Not that I've noticed.

If somebody is willing to give me ingredients to craft one on Sarlona, I'll play guinea pig. :p

[Angelus_dead]

Not that I've noticed.
If somebody is willing to give me ingredients to craft one on Sarlona, I'll play guinea pig. :p
I'm pretty sure it's already explained somewhere in this thread.

Anyway, when you wear two green items they eat you. You take damage, maybe 10-15 every 10 seconds. Around that I guess. It's a convenient way to commit suicide in-place, but can be very dangerous. If you release from death wearing them, they'll kill you again before you've fully respawned in the tavern.

You'll need to beg a cleric player to rescue you.

[The_Cataclysm]

No Tier 3 Effect ??? for Earth Earth Earth on an item !!!!!!


Positive + Positive + Positive = Wpn: Greater Disruption Guard (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1558476&postcount=489) Item:
Fire + Fire + Fire = Wpn: Incineration (http://ddoimages.level3.turbine.com/files/61/93/18/80/1326.jpg) Item:
Earth + Earth + Earth= Wpn: Earth Grab (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1557120&postcount=1) Item: No Effect

One little error there. The Greater Disruption Guard that we know about was on an item not a weapon.

[Starheart]

Used Positive Energy Focus, a Dominion Gem, and Ethereal Essence on a necklace for two upgrades. The necklace has the following powers:

True Resurrection: 1/rest
Healing Lore: +6% chance to crit and .25 to critical damage multiplier
Greater Healing Lore: +9% to crit and .25 to critical damage multiplier
Positive energy affinity
Aspect of Positive Energy

[Shima-ra]

Do those lore stack, or is it a waste?

[Cambo]

Supreme Ugrade Wapon Material, Dominion, Positive x 3

Final Upgrade Added Good Burst(4d6 on 20's) and Greater Disruption

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i195/Aundymeister/SupremeTyrantLongsword.jpg

Courtesy of Assio and Neo Skullriders


Got this in a PM..Thanks Assio

[Cambo]

Used Positive Energy Focus, a Dominion Gem, and Ethereal Essence on a necklace for two upgrades. The necklace has the following powers:

True Resurrection: 1/rest
Healing Lore: +6% chance to crit and .25 to critical damage multiplier
Greater Healing Lore: +9% to crit and .25 to critical damage multiplier
Positive energy affinity
Aspect of Positive Energy

Thanks..updated

Thanks for the Catch on disruption guard Borror ,,Fixed,,

[MasamuneXero]

Can the creator of that Greater Disruption tell us what that does exactly?

Is it just disruption with a higher will save?

[The_Cataclysm]

Can the creator of that Greater Disruption tell us what that does exactly?

Is it just disruption with a higher will save?

By going by the description in the image I would say that it has a random chance of killing undead.

[MasamuneXero]

By going by the description in the image I would say that it has a random chance of killing undead.

What's the point of it then?

Greater Disruption is worse than Disruption?

That's [edited: ridiculous]

[KatanAztar]

What's the point of it then?

Greater Disruption is worse than Disruption?

That's ********.

Maybe this effect doesnt have a save. Please test it (whoever has it)!

[Qzipoun]

That's ********.

A disruptor with Holy, Good Blast, Good Burst, +5 modifier and a True Resurrection clicky is "********"? Wow...

[gpk]

A disruptor with Holy, Good Blast, Good Burst, +5 modifier and a True Resurrection clicky is "********"? Wow...

Yes it's not great, and it's not really a disruptor nor is it really pure good.

Right now its holy, 4d6 good on crits (there is no working pure good per hit), 4d6 good on confirmed 20, true res clicky and a base d10.

From what I understand it those "special" things like earthgrab although they have a very high DC, onlly kick in like 1% of the time. And you would think a mod full of outsiders would have banishing instead of disruption.

So we have a +5 holy burst with an average of ~2 more damage/swing and a True Resurrection clicky, at 1% (pending further tests) the disruption is insignificant.
Even if its 5% disruption it's still much worse than a damaging blast of pg or Acid's earth grab.
Right now the DDO wiki lists 2-5% for special chance effects, but I've heard more like 1% from ppl in-game, it would be really nice to get a dev answer.

Remember this is supposed to be raid loot, I'm hoping there is still a lot left to discover.
Crafting exceptional +stats on non weapons would be useful...

[Grimshadow]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/locdog807/ScreenShot00203.jpg

I wonder what would happen if you put water as tier 3? Possibly +5 deflection/saves? Probably not but would be cool though!

[Snoggy]

No, +45 HP and +6 CON skills... which is Concentration.

That's what I get for reading this thread right before bed. :(

[Angelus_dead]

Supreme Ugrade Wapon Material, Dominion, Positive x 3
Final Upgrade Added Good Burst(4d6 on 20's) and Greater Disruption
One tidbit that's useful to point out: the tier 3 damage-dice options on weapons look to be almost NEVER worth it.

Both the Acid Blast and Good Blast options give you an extra 4d6 damage on a natural 20. 4d6 is 4 * 3.5 = 14 damage average, and obviously it only happens once per 20 swings.

At tier3 you can also choose to get Exceptional Strength +2. That will increase your strength mod by +1, adding +1 damage to every hit. If the monster's AC is low enough, that equates to +19 damage per 20 swings, plus more according to your weapon's crit factors. A khopesh comes to a total of +27 damage over 20 swings. Clearly that's better than Good Blast... even without considering that the +2 strength actually raises your attack bonus, making it easier for you to hit the monster's AC.

Therefore, the only reason I'd ever choose an effect like Acid Blast or Good Blast is if I had a TWF character who already had Exceptional Strength +2 on my other weapon, or if I really loved the combo effect and needed to choose Positive or Earth to qualify for Greater Disruption or Earthgrab.

[Borror0]

One tidbit that's useful to point out: the tier 3 damage-dice options on weapons look to be almost NEVER worth it.

Agreed there, it makes me happy in a way, like that I'm not missing out on too much DPS for taking AC +3 on my tank. :)

[Tanka]

I agree that the Blasts, while they could be extremely fun to see fire off, won't come into much use to be worthwhile.

I'm definitely looking at Shocking + Acid Burst + +2 Str on Tanka, and possibly something similar on Honos.

[ChildrenofBodom]

One little error there. The Greater Disruption Guard that we know about was on an item not a weapon.

Correct, and incorrect, it' been found on an item AND a weapon.

Weapon (http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i195/Aundymeister/SupremeTyrantLongsword.jpg)

Item (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1558476&postcount=489)

EDIT: Also, realized that you posted before we found out about the weapon, so at the time you were totally correct. :D

[Taojeff]

I agree that the Blasts, while they could be extremely fun to see fire off, won't come into much use to be worthwhile.

I'm definitely looking at Shocking + Acid Burst + +2 Str on Tanka, and possibly something similar on Honos.

Yeah I already decided to do similar.

I am going Holy + acid burst + 2 exceptional str for main hand

and

Holy + icy burst + 3 AC insight bonus for off hand.

This will put my ranger at 58 dual-wielding sans any shield clickies.

[Borror0]

EDIT: Also, realized that you posted before we found out about the weapon, so at the time you were totally correct. :D

LOL

[Oran_Lathor]

Question about tier one intelligence upgrade on weapons:

I see from the recipe list that "Ethereal+ Escalation+ Fire" and "Ethereal + Escalation + Negative" both say +6 intel... but only the negative one has a screenie. Is it confirmed that fire also gives +6 int on weapons?

[Shima-ra]

Good point about +2str or +3 ac probably being the best tier3 upgrades.
+2 str also gives +1 to your stuns and trips, that is what I might put in my khopesh.

[UtherSRG]

Question about tier one intelligence upgrade on weapons:

I see from the recipe list that "Ethereal+ Escalation+ Fire" and "Ethereal + Escalation + Negative" both say +6 intel... but only the negative one has a screenie. Is it confirmed that fire also gives +6 int on weapons?

Yes. I posted a screenie of my +5 Clever Green Steel Sceptre a few pages back, and I built it with EEF. I'm putting EEN on it next.

[Oran_Lathor]

Yes. I posted a screenie of my +5 Clever Green Steel Sceptre a few pages back, and I built it with EEF. I'm putting EEN on it next.

Sweet thanks Uther.

[gpk]

Good point about +2str or +3 ac probably being the best tier3 upgrades.
+2 str also gives +1 to your stuns and trips, that is what I might put in my khopesh.

Yep those certainly look like the best tier3 options for weapons from what we know now.

I'm thinking a good all-around evil beater would be (correct me if I made a mistake, this is possible right?):
on a khopesh
tier1: holy
tier2: shocking burst (for demons/devils who have acid resistance)
tier3: +2 str or+3 ac (if you have a meaningful AC to begin with where +3 can help)

[osirisisis]

I ran a seach for greater disruption on a crafted weapon... Is there greater disruption weapons? What the Dice check on that? whats the link to the pic?

[Perceval]

Lt. Grn Steel Goggles of Wizardry VI

Lt. Grn Steel Goggles of Wizardry VI (http://www.ddoplayer.com/crafting/LGS_Goggles_EEE.gif)

Earth Etheral Essence

[Wizzly_Bear]

does any1 know if the haggle bonus from the balance upgrade stacks with a haggle item?

[MysticTheurge]

does any1 know if the haggle bonus from the balance upgrade stacks with a haggle item?

You mean the one from Existential Stalemate? No, it's a competence bonus. (Which is also what regular items are, and therefore they won't stack.)

[Wizzly_Bear]

You mean the one from Existential Stalemate? No, it's a competence bonus. (Which is also what regular items are, and therefore they won't stack.)

well crud, was hoping to get 100 haggle :D oh well, thanks mt

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

I ran a seach for greater disruption on a crafted weapon... Is there greater disruption weapons? What the Dice check on that? whats the link to the pic?

Greater disruption is the third level upgrade for going positive/positive/positive on a weapon.

http://will.phase.net/ddo/gdisruption.jpg

Unfortunately it doesn't say what the DC is, or when exactly it hits.

Garth

[Jhoran]

just from reading the description; i would expect it to be no save..just destroyed

how often it procs....who knows

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Hi,

Does anyone know if you can get two second tier combination effects e.g. if I do earth/fire/air will I get both the earth/fire combo (Meteor Swarm) and also the Fire/Air combo (Displacement), or will the Air addition just do nothing at all?

I haven't seen any screenshots of 3rd tier items that aren't all based on the same element - can someone point me at one perhaps?

Garth

[Ikuryo]

As far as I know there have not been any reports of 3 different combos yet so we dont know what will happen. Several people have said that they plan to do so but they have not reported yet so they probably have not gotten the materials/completed the raid yet. The only reports you see are all of the same type because it would make sense that tripling the power would give a nice effect so most of the attempts have been made that way. In order to add the 3rd level effect you have to complete the raid and are then locked out for a period of time. Since most people want to test the 1st and 2nd combines more they have delayed completing the raid while they get the 2nd level items they want made. I suspect that you can use the final device more then once after you finish the raid so there might be a large number of reports at some point as a lot of people upgrade all their level 2 items to level 3 at the same time.

[Benjai]

Hi,

Does anyone know if you can get two second tier combination effects e.g. if I do earth/fire/air will I get both the earth/fire combo (Meteor Swarm) and also the Fire/Air combo (Displacement), or will the Air addition just do nothing at all?

I haven't seen any screenshots of 3rd tier items that aren't all based on the same element - can someone point me at one perhaps?

Garth

Doubtfully, as what will be the mechanism to have 2 clickies. My theory, and i'm pretty sure its true is there are two separate effect tables, one calculated when you do your second upgrade that looks at your two aspects (regardless of order), and after your third upgrade it looks at your three aspects (probably regardless of order).

Check my math but theres 6 aspects, and 3 upgrades, so total number of possibilities is 6^3, then divided by 6 if order doesn't matter (since each combo will show 6 different ways, abc, acb, bac, bca, cab, cba) which is 36 3rd tier combos.

[sirgog]

Check my math but theres 6 aspects, and 3 upgrades, so total number of possibilities is 6^3, then divided by 6 if order doesn't matter (since each combo will show 6 different ways, abc, acb, bac, bca, cab, cba) which is 36 3rd tier combos.

Close but not exactly correct. You don't divide by 6 when you have aab or aaa.

There's 6!/(3!*3!) = 20 combinations of 3 different elements (e.g. positive, negative, earth), not considering order.
There's 6!/4! = 30 combinations of the form aab (e.g. Earth, Earth, Positive) when you consider aab to be the same as aba but different to abb.
There's 6 'pure' combinations (e.g. Water Water Water).

Total 56 combinations, or 41 if the game treats Earth Earth Positive as the same as Earth Positive Positive. All of this assumes that order does not matter (it's proven that the order of the first 2 upgrades does not matter but we don't know about the third).

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Doubtfully, as what will be the mechanism to have 2 clickies.

Doh - good point - I hadn't thought of that... and there was I hoping for 2 x displacement and 2 x stone skin. Since all of the 3rd tier improvements have been non-clicky it's possible that there are a whole swath of 'mixed' 3rd tier upgrades that just haven't been discovered yet.

I'm planning on going positive/earth/water (+/E/W)or positive/earth/negative (+/E/-) to make a +5 holy acid burst khopesh of +2 exceptional strength with 2x stoneskin clicky so once I make that I'll post what +/E/W or +/E/- makes (although at the rate I'm getting ingredients I'm sure someone else will post before me!)

Garth

[joeuhuh]

since when u put the imbued shard of power in the machine with batery and greensteel item there are 2 slots left has anyone tried puting more than one imbued shard in witht he greensteel item and battery?

[Cambo]

Got this in a PM from Redcoil

About Earth Earth Earth on an item.

:None Isn't right... Dont have the screenshot, but it gives moderate evil guard, even if its not on the item, it'll show up in yer combat log. 1d8 damage vs evil enmies...thats all it says.

Seems like a strange cmbination for Earth x 3..But At least there is a feature

[osirisisis]

Greater disruption is the third level upgrade for going positive/positive/positive on a weapon.

http://will.phase.net/ddo/gdisruption.jpg

Unfortunately it doesn't say what the DC is, or when exactly it hits.

Garth

***
Y is Turbine so vauge
Now what U have to craft one and hope U like it after U test it and if not then restart on a new one at $9.99 subcription fee a month...........

[Borror0]

hope you like it after you test it

Hopefuly, someone will be patient enough to go in an undead quest and make some serious tests.

[MysticTheurge]

Doubtfully, as what will be the mechanism to have 2 clickies.

People keep saying this, but...

Doesn't that Staff of Arcane Power have multiple clickies on the same item?

[Hendrik]

People keep saying this, but...

Doesn't that Staff of Arcane Power have multiple clickies on the same item?

Yes it does, several in fact MT.

[MysticTheurge]

Yes it does, several in fact MT.

How does it work, mechanically speaking? Pop-up window?

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

How does it work, mechanically speaking? Pop-up window?

Yeah - pop up, like teleport scrolls or resist energy. You can drag the individual icons to your hotbar to gain direct access to them.

I hadn't considered that, and it might be a way to get multipl clickies on one item. However, I still believe that the 3rd tier specials will be something else not clicky based (but this is just my guess)...

Garth

[Shade]

Went negative + positive + postive (edit thx to mad_barbardier for noticing)
HP/HP/Will save

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/2194/bracersou2.jpg

[Mad_Bombardier]

Got this in a PM from Redcoil

About Earth Earth Earth on an item.

:None Isn't right... Dont have the screenshot, but it gives moderate evil guard, even if its not on the item, it'll show up in yer combat log. 1d8 damage vs evil enmies...thats all it says.

Seems like a strange cmbination for Earth x 3..But At least there is a featureThat's good to know. But, strange that it isn't printed in the item description.

As for % process on tier3 effects? I'd really like to see the % number just so we can tell if it's working or not. If it has a save, I'd like to see it, too. (Eg., Ancient Vulkoorim Dagger (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/AncientVulkoorimDagger.jpg) doesn't show the %, but does show the DC 25 Fort save, so we can choose to target low(er) Fort giants to test.)

[Mad_Bombardier]

Went positive + negative + postive
HP/HP/Will saveShade, the item says 'Negative Energy Affinity'. Just for record clarity, doesn't that mean Negative + Positive + Positive? Bummer that you didn't get a tier3 bonus effect. :(

[Shade]

Yeah - pop up, like teleport scrolls or resist energy. You can drag the individual icons to your hotbar to gain direct access to them.

I hadn't considered that, and it might be a way to get multipl clickies on one item. However, I still believe that the 3rd tier specials will be something else not clicky based (but this is just my guess)...

Well they do seem to lack the tech to actaully change anything on an item.. So for items with existing clickies, it wouldn't be possible because then it would show 2 clickies in the descript, which isnt gonna work.

I mean how you get improved combustion, then it upgrades to greater - yet they dont stack so there is no point in showing both, so if they could, they should just change the effect.. But they dont.

Plus multiple clicky items aren't actaully multiple clicky items.
The staff of arcane power is just a staff with 1 clicky : Arcane spell power selection.. That is just a specially coded spell that pops up a menu for other spells.

[Shade]

Shade, the item says 'Negative Energy Affinity'. Just for record clarity, doesn't that mean Negative + Positive + Positive? Bummer that you didn't get a tier3 bonus effect. :(
Yea that sounds right since i got str skills for the first thing.

hmm leme test it. maybe i got some invisible effect like for the earth x3 one.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Yea that sounds right since i got str skills for the first thing.

hmm leme test it. maybe i got some invisible effect like for the earth x3 one.cool. /fingers crossed for unlisted bonus effect. :)

[Shade]

nah doesn't seem to do anything special.. Tested it on some trolls in the vale and nothing special happened.

Only neat thing i saw in the combat log was this:
You are immune to fiend-blood troll's smite good.

Benefit of being true neutral rather then my bracers tho..

[Mad_Bombardier]

P.S. Woot, for being the Mad_BARBardier. That's a typo that I can live with! :D

[The_Cataclysm]

cool. /fingers crossed for unlisted bonus effect. :)

I'm guessing that only certain (assuming any) upgrade paths besides the single focus type give a tier 3 bonus.

[Mad_Bombardier]

I'm guessing that only certain (assuming any) upgrade paths besides the single focus type give a tier 3 bonus.You may be right, and there may only be specific, limited combos for tier3. :(

I was very pleased with the 21 'Aspect of' combinations of pure energy/element, quasi-elemental, and para-elemental. The clickies are just plain fun. :) It'd be a shame not to have other quasi-para-elemental combinations of tier3 combos. I like the multiple layers of the stacked effects.

[jjflanigan]

There has to be something special to do for tier 3 after you go Pos + Neg to get the existential stalemate...I only say this because it mentions that it doesn't do anything special but there is an undeniable sense of potential...sure does make it sound like you can do something to "unlock" it

[Healemup]

Well, I made a +6 str item.

Material, escalation, negative.

Here are the screenies.

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc292/ralm33/shard_material_escalation_negative.jpg
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc292/ralm33/greensteel_str.jpg

[renegade117]

I really want to do this one, how do u make it with the +6 dex? (ie. Mater, dom, fire) I've made the Greatsword already, I just need to know the progression of items to put on shard to get that effect one the Fire, Fire, Fire...

Thankx.

[Cursed]

This is nothing new, but I wanted to try this. http://s207.photobucket.com/albums/bb61/BobMartin9/?action=view&current=helm.jpg

It's a helm with fire resist first and elec resist second. I was hoping that it would give 30 fire and 30 elec. It gives 5 elec stacking just like the guide implied. At least I still got the displacement.

[MysticTheurge]

Negative + Positive + Positive? Bummer that you didn't get a tier3 bonus effect. :(

Disappointing, indeed.

[Kargon]

bracers + Ethereal + Escalation + air = Wizardry 6 + 1 cha skills.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y68/FusionBlast/airbracers.jpg

Bracers + ethereal + escalation + air (medium) = +2 cha skills +50 stackamable sp + 3x haste clicky

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y68/FusionBlast/AirAirbracers.jpg

[Shima-ra]

thats brilliant Kargon
I prefer that awsome haste clicky over True rez

[Turial]

thats brilliant Kargon
I prefer that awsome haste clicky over True rez

Yeah I'm really curious about what Air + Air + Air is before I make that type of item. It really comes down to the 3rd tier bonus. Disruption guard is cool and all but Air maybe more useful overall.

[Hendrik]

How does it work, mechanically speaking? Pop-up window?

Yes and the ability to drag and drop each clickie to your hotbar and use.

Wonderful item to have BTW...

:)

[Ilandrya]

Went negative + positive + postive (edit thx to mad_barbardier for noticing)
HP/HP/Will save

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/2194/bracersou2.jpg

It appears to me that the "Exceptional Resistance +2 Will" is from a different line of upgrade... I'm guessing he went ethereal/opposition the final time, whereas he went material/escalation the previous two times.

With the first choice, he could have gone either negative or water to get that effect.
With the second choice, he could have gone either earth or positive to get that effect.
With the third upgrade, he could have gone positive, but hypothesis currently is there is one more focus that would cause this which is not known for certain at this time.

It stands to reason that any stand alone focus would not grant anything by way of bonuses. When you follow the same focus through all three upgrades, you are strengthening the existing focus. When you mix focuses, you are creating a new focus that utilizes two focuses to do so. A third focus which does not strengthen the existing focus or create a new one would stand alone, like the single focus at "The Altar of Invasion", and would not affect bonuses, if my hypothesis is correct. Whether or not there are any new focuses created from using three different focuses or two of one focus and one of another, remains to be seen, but in theory if that should occur, new bonuses should result from any combination which results in a new focus. In this case, a new focus was not created by the addition of the third focus, nor did it improve upon an existing focus, so there was no addition to the bonus.

What puzzles me with this screenshot is that the Existential Stalemate utilizes a positive and a negative focus. The "leftover" focus here appears to be negative. So, either this is a display bug, or two negatives and a positive focus were used. (It also seems kind of odd to me that the level three upgrade would be listed beneath the bonus in this case because in the case of other items that have been upgraded three times that I have seen, it's listed above the bonus effects. I'm wondering if its possible that the +2 to will is part of the bonus, and for some reason your item isn't displaying the effects of the level three upgrade. It could be that listing the level three upgrade beneath the bonus instead of above it on this item is part of the "display bug" I mentioned earlier though. Hmmm....)

If my guess about what line he took with the third upgrade is correct, that would mean that negative focus affects will saves in the ethereal/opposition on an accessory line. That would be in keeping with my thoughts that will saves would be more likely to be impacted by negative/positive energies than elemental ones. If we further that train of thought about opposing types, and take what we already know to be true... that fort saves are obtained with earth, then the remaining save types would be fort earth/air and reflex fire/water. That's a hypothesis only at this point.

[Bloodyfury]

Yeah I'm really curious about what Air + Air + Air is before I make that type of item. It really comes down to the 3rd tier bonus. Disruption guard is cool and all but Air maybe more useful overall.


Exactly what I'm aiming at with my main since the start as no one did it so far, but I can't get my hand on the first stupid shard :mad:

So I ran out of patience and completed it a 2nd time lol Now can't farm it for 3 days *sigh*

I too believe the haste clicky is awesome (caster level 16 = 3 charges of 1 minute 36 seconds of haste!).
While True Rez.....bof. Prefer by far to have 4m48 of haste without having to beg for one! Especially as I can raise easily with UMD.

True Rez probly won't be useful except for some pure tanks/barb that can't raise or UMD at all, otherwise...

Now I just can't wait to see the Tier3 on that!

What I'm hoping for...

Air Elemental Knockdown.:eek:
Very nice striding bonus :D
Maybe some permanent ability like Blur/Displacement, something between both (perm displacement would be owerpowered no doubt!)

Let's go Kaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargon! :p

[Kargon]

Air Elemental Knockdown.:eek:
Very nice striding bonus :D
Maybe some permanent ability like Blur/Displacement, something between both (perm displacement would be owerpowered no doubt!)

Let's go Kaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargon! :p

Large componament donatimions will be acceptamed on Sarlona towards getting silly bracermers to air/air/air ;)

Kargon still holding hope for perma haste!

[AEschyl]

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i13/TheLuckyKnights/aspectofsalt.jpg

aspect of salt

[MysticTheurge]

What puzzles me with this screenshot is that the Existential Stalemate utilizes a positive and a negative focus. The "leftover" focus here appears to be negative.

I don't think it works that way.

I think the first tier gives the item it's "affinity," the second tier gives it it's "aspect of..." (or similar) and the third tier may or may not give it an additional ability.

[Hence]

Here is what I have been dying to find out!!!!

Negative+Material+Oppostion = Disease Immunity + Blindness Immunity on an item.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh232/jodocasts/dicloak.jpg

Thats cool. I figured it would be good since this line has regen for positive.
Now, I was thinking about going positive for second stage with the same line: Positive+Material+Opposition for the regen and 4 wisdom.

For the last stage I wanted to do an element because I think thats what is going to give you a decent third tier effect out of existential stalemate. I was thinking a third tier guard effect, or a third tier resistance effect in keeping with material and oppo.

Any hypothesis? Im pleased with this item even though I dont need blindness immunity and blind immune has always been buggered.

Second thought, what is the second tier in this same line? I was thinking Poison and fear immunity... third line, deathblock? Seems like a pretty open ended path.

[Borror0]

[Picture]

aspect of salt

Seems people's guess was right. Made the change over the wiki too.

[Vaarsuvius]

Here is what I have been dying to find out!!!!

Negative+Material+Oppostion = Disease Immunity + Blindness Immunity on an item.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh232/jodocasts/dicloak.jpg

Thats cool. I figured it would be good since this line has regen for positive.
Now, I was thinking about going positive for second stage with the same line: Positive+Material+Opposition for the regen and 4 wisdom.

For the last stage I wanted to do an element because I think thats what is going to give you a decent third tier effect out of existential stalemate. I was thinking a third tier guard effect, or a third tier resistance effect in keeping with material and oppo.

Any hypothesis? Im pleased with this item even though I dont need blindness immunity and blind immune has always been buggered.

Second thought, what is the second tier in this same line? I was thinking Poison and fear immunity... third line, deathblock? Seems like a pretty open ended path.


I see the positive and negative combo a couple of times but has anyone tried switching those ad also the matirial and ethereal since they are also opposites? like first tier neg/matirial and second tier pos/etherreal?

[MysticTheurge]

Here is what I have been dying to find out!!!!

Negative+Material+Oppostion = Disease Immunity + Blindness Immunity on an item.

Thats cool.

It would be cooler if it was Poisonproof too. I suppose that could still make a nice second tier.

I to am planning on going +//-//?

I'll try for a last tier that hasn't been tried yet to see if we can figure out what this "undeniable potential" is.

[MysticTheurge]

I just realized that, thanks to Existential Stalemate, you can make a +6 Int/+6 Wis weapon with Greater Devotion VI.

Maybe I should make a Mystic Theurge after all...

[Torosar]

This was posted on our Server forums by CobraChoas, and it wasn't posted here so i thought i would forward it over.

He appears to have done Material + Dominion + Water 3 times on a greatsword and achieved the following.

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h133/morbid_chaos/ScreenShot00078.jpg?t=1203285884

Icy Blast was the tier 3 effect, and from Water + Water + Water he got Crushing Wave which he described as 'Crushing wave seems to do 30-40 cold and bludgeoning damage over 6 seconds hits about 3 times for each totalling 240 damage.'

[Eladrin]

I'm guessing that only certain (assuming any) upgrade paths besides the single focus type give a tier 3 bonus.
Quasi-elemental, para-elemental, and "special" tier three upgrade paths exist, and tend to have superior abilities to the "easy" elemental upgrades.

[MysticTheurge]

Water + Water

Eladrin, since you're here: Is water + water really supposed to give a CL 16 Cure Light Wounds clickie?

It seems rather inane, since CLW doesn't improve with caster level after 5th level. Is it maybe supposed to be some other Cure spell? Like a mass one maybe?

[MysticTheurge]

Quasi-elemental, para-elemental, and "special" tier three upgrade paths exist

I'm going to guess that Element/Element/Pos|Neg makes a Quasi tier three power.

So like Air/Air/Positive will give a more powerful "aspect of lightning" than Air/Positive does.

Anyone care to test it out?

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

This was posted on our Server forums by CobraChoas, and it wasn't posted here so i thought i would forward it over.

He appears to have done Material + Dominion + Water 3 times on a greatsword and achieved the following.

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h133/morbid_chaos/ScreenShot00078.jpg?t=1203285884

Icy Blast was the tier 3 effect, and from Water + Water + Water he got Crushing Wave which he described as 'Crushing wave seems to do 30-40 cold and bludgeoning damage over 6 seconds hits about 3 times for each totalling 240 damage.'

Just to clarify the description, crushing wave does 30-40 Cold Damage & 30-40 Bludgeon Damage each tick over 6 seconds, at one tick every two seconds. When we tested it out in PvP, it seemed to go off at something around the rate of a vorpal.

Master Kadish

[Bloodyfury]

Just to clarify the description, crushing wave does 30-40 Cold Damage & 30-40 Bludgeon Damage each tick over 6 seconds, at one tick every two seconds. When we tested it out in PvP, it seemed to go off at something around the rate of a vorpal.

Master Kadish

My question is: are these dmg on a single target or an AoE on the mobs around?

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

I'm going to guess that Element/Element/Pos|Neg makes a Quasi tier three power.

So like Air/Air/Positive will give a more powerful "aspect of lightning" than Air/Positive does.

Anyone care to test it out?

I'm building pos/air/air goggles so I'll let you know. All I need is a few more large ingredients. Don't send them to Kargon - send them to me!!! :)

Garth

[jjflanigan]

I'm building pos/air/air goggles so I'll let you know. All I need is a few more large ingredients. Don't send them to Kargon - send them to me!!! :)

Garth

Wonder if there is a difference in: pos/air/air and air/air/pos

Pos / air would make lighting, then upgrade it with more air

Air / Air would make bigger air, then upgrade it with positive to make the (possibly) more powerful lightning

[Bloodyfury]

Quasi-elemental, para-elemental, and "special" tier three upgrade paths exist, and tend to have superior abilities to the "easy" elemental upgrades.

I'm a bit confused on these para-semi-quasi-mini-mega elemental combos :eek::rolleyes::p

MT, could you please defines them clearly? :o
And list the possibilities in each of them? Pretty please? :D

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Wonder if there is a difference in: pos/air/air and air/air/pos

Pos / air would make lighting, then upgrade it with more air

Air / Air would make bigger air, then upgrade it with positive to make the (possibly) more powerful lightning

Based on the evidence that pos/neg is the same as neg/pos and air/pos is the same as pos/air - I would guess that order doesn't matter, and air/air/pos will work out the same as pos/air/air... but it'll be interesting to find that out for sure :)

Garth

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

My question is: are these dmg on a single target or an AoE on the mobs around?

Single Target.

[Mad_Bombardier]

I'm a bit confused on these para-semi-quasi-mini-mega elemental combos :eek::rolleyes::p

MT, could you please defines them clearly? :o
And list the possibilities in each of them? Pretty please? :DHere ya go!

The Foci are representative of the elemental/energy planes, and these combinations of planar foci are pure elemental/energy, quasielemental (energy + element), and paraelemental (2 differing elements). Use the following chart to see which Aspect, your item will have. (Tempered, Balance of Land and Sky, and Existential Stalemate are DDO creations.)

Air Fire Earth Water Positive Negative
Air |Air Smoke Balance* Ice Lightning Vacuum
Fire |Smoke Fire Magma Tempered Radiance Ash
Earth |Balance* Magma Earth Ooze Mineral Dust
Water |Ice Tempered Ooze Water Steam Salt
Positive|Lightning Radiance Mineral Steam Positive Stalemate*
Negative|Vacuum Ash Dust Salt Stalemate* Negative

*Balance of Land and Sky
*Existential StalemateBeyond that, there are quasi-para-elemental combinations in D&D planar lore, which you get by adding a para-elemental combo with an energy. For example, Fire + Earth = Magma. Magma + Positive = Obsidian. Magma + Negative = Pumice. I have no idea if these quasi-para-elemental combos will be represented in the Mod6 crafting system, but it's worth a shot. And I can't wait to see the results! :)

Quasi-para-elementals (from D&D lore)
Magma + Positive = Obsidian
Magma + Negative = Pumice
Ooze + Positive = Clay
Ooze + Negative = Silt
Ice + Positive = Crystal
Ice + Negative = Frost
Smoke + Positive = Spark
Smoke + Negative = Fumes

[Ilandrya]

I don't think it works that way.

I think the first tier gives the item it's "affinity," the second tier gives it it's "aspect of..." (or similar) and the third tier may or may not give it an additional ability.

That would certainly explain why things are displayed the way they are on items. = ) (Side Note: I wish they would put clickies consistantly in one spot on the display... in some cases they appear up top, in others on the bottom from what I have seen.)

While it doesn't seem to matter at the second upgrade level what order the focuses are in, it will be interesting to see if focus order has an overall bearing after all upon finding all the third level upgrade focus combinations...

[Bloodyfury]

Here ya go!

The Foci are representative of the elemental/energy planes, and these combinations of planar foci are pure elemental/energy, quasielemental (energy + element), and paraelemental (2 differing elements). Use the following chart to see which Aspect, your item will have. (Tempered, Balance of Land and Sky, and Existential Stalemate are DDO creations.)

Air Fire Earth Water Positive Negative
Air |Air Smoke Balance* Ice Lightning Vacuum
Fire |Smoke Fire Magma Tempered Radiance Ash
Earth |Balance* Magma Earth Ooze Mineral Dust
Water |Ice Tempered Ooze Water Steam Salt
Positive|Lightning Radiance Mineral Steam Positive Stalemate*
Negative|Vacuum Ash Dust Salt Stalemate* Negative

*Balance of Land and Sky
*Existential StalemateBeyond that, there are quasi-para-elemental combinations in D&D planar lore, which you get by adding a para-elemental combo with an energy. For example, Fire + Earth = Magma. Magma + Positive = Obsidian. Magma + Negative = Pumice. I have no idea if these quasi-para-elemental combos will be represented in the Mod6 crafting system, but it's worth a shot. And I can't wait to see the results! :)

Quasi-para-elementals (from D&D lore)
Magma + Positive = Obsidian
Magma + Negative = Pumice
Ooze + Positive = Clay
Ooze + Negative = Silt
Ice + Positive = Crystal
Ice + Negative = Frost
Smoke + Positive = Spark
Smoke + Negative = Fumes

Awesome, tx a lot Mad :D

[Ihsan]

This was posted on our Server forums by CobraChoas, and it wasn't posted here so i thought i would forward it over.

He appears to have done Material + Dominion + Water 3 times on a greatsword and achieved the following.

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h133/morbid_chaos/ScreenShot00078.jpg?t=1203285884

Icy Blast was the tier 3 effect, and from Water + Water + Water he got Crushing Wave which he described as 'Crushing wave seems to do 30-40 cold and bludgeoning damage over 6 seconds hits about 3 times for each totalling 240 damage.'

Does the crushing wave have a cool animation ?

[ChildrenofBodom]

Does the crushing wave have a cool animation ?

Would love to know this also. Have gone material, dominion, water twice on my bow so far. Just need the ingredients and shard for #3. Looks like a really cool effect.

[Boulderun]

So if that theory holds, then creating a quasi-elemental combination with the first two altars ends up screwing you on the third? Been trying to decide what to add to my pos + air sword, but it looks like it won't matter beyond the primary effect.

[Bloodyfury]

So if that theory holds, then creating a quasi-elemental combination with the first two altars ends up screwing you on the third? Been trying to decide what to add to my pos + air sword, but it looks like it won't matter beyond the primary effect.

Nah. Reread Eladrin's post carefully


Quasi-elemental, para-elemental, and "special" tier three upgrade paths exist, and tend to have superior abilities to the "easy" elemental upgrades.

[Myrdinn]

Hi all,

Just to tell you that I am pretty sure the best special will be from these:

neg + pos + fire/air/water/earth
fire + water + pos/neg
earth + air + pos/neg

I am confident these will give some nice effect. Would love to try them myself, but I'm still far behind since I don't have enough time :(

I wanna go fire + water + pos on my bracer, will see what it give (when I get there :P) :)

[Boulderun]

So is there any kind of pattern to work from after the quasi-elemental step? Lightning + Earth = ?, Lightning + Negative = ?, etc.

[jjflanigan]

I did Air + Fire to get the Aspect of smoke -- going to add positive next to see if I can get spark -- I've never gone past phase 3, though, so it'll be a while :(

[Ikuryo]

I also think that pos+neg+(Elemental) would be the way to go. Doing Pos+Neg+(Pos/Neg) would screw up the balance that you achieved with the first two combines. I would think that to use the potential the stalemate mentions you would need to give it something to focus on without disturbing the current balance. I wish I could get in there and help as well. My ranger just reached 14 though and is a bit behind the curve right now.

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

Does the crushing wave have a cool animation ?

Unfortunately, it isn't really that great (though not horrible)... it's kind of like a combination of the poison effect green spray (like when a character is hit with stat damage or a zombie explodes) and a similar blue spray. /sigh :(

Master Kadish

[ChildrenofBodom]

Unfortunately, it isn't really that great (though not horrible)... it's kind of like a combination of the poison effect green spray and a similar blue spray. /sigh :(

Master Kadish

Could you post a screenie? :)

[MysticTheurge]

I also think that pos+neg+(Elemental) would be the way to go. Doing Pos+Neg+(Pos/Neg) would screw up the balance that you achieved with the first two combines. I would think that to use the potential the stalemate mentions you would need to give it something to focus on without disturbing the current balance. I wish I could get in there and help as well. My ranger just reached 14 though and is a bit behind the curve right now.

That's kind of what I was thinking too.

If I get my item made before everyone else discovers everything I'll be going +//-//element.

[Myrdinn]

Ok, it is definitive, I am going air + earth + positive.

Still need medium and large ingredient, but as soon as I get there, will be happy to share a screeny.

I will appreciate any donation :P:cool:

[Eladrin]

Quasi-Para-Elemental combinations (Obsidian, Pumice, etc.) are one step beyond as weird as we wanted to go.


Wonder if there is a difference in: pos/air/air and air/air/pos
There is difference between those two upgrade chains.


Pos / air would make lighting, then upgrade it with more air
You got air in my lightning!


Air / Air (/ pos) would make bigger air
You got positive energy in my (lots of) air!

[Benjai]

Eldarin, could you confirm whether or not all combinations will have some sort of effect or do a lot of us need to become very disappointed with experimental items and need to make new items from scratch?

[The_Cataclysm]

Ok, it is definitive, I am going air + earth + positive.

Still need medium and large ingredient, but as soon as I get there, will be happy to share a screeny.

I will appreciate any donation :P:cool:

In that order?

Just wondering since I'm planning to go Earth + Positive + Air, though I'm still a ways away.

[Gol]

I still want earth/air/fire to create an Otto's disco ball x 3 clicky!

[Eladrin]

Eldarin, could you confirm whether or not all combinations will have some sort of effect or do a lot of us need to become very disappointed with experimental items and need to make new items from scratch?
Every elemental combination will do something neat at Tier Two, though none reach their full potential until Tier Three.

A Tier Two recipe without a proper Tier Three addition will not unlock the full potential of the item. Saying the item is disappointing and needs to be remade from scratch may be a bit excessive - it's still a Tier Two item with an additional benefit from the Tier Three improvement.

[Pellegro]

I still want earth/air/fire to create an Otto's disco ball x 3 clicky!

that's the way of the world ....:D

[Boulderun]

Ok, it is definitive, I am going air + earth + positive.

Still need medium and large ingredient, but as soon as I get there, will be happy to share a screeny.

I will appreciate any donation :P:cool:

I'm considering that for a pair of mav-goggles. Earth + air + pos though for +5 cha skills.

On the other hand, I could go neg + pos + air for the stalemate stuff. Or instead of the wiz VI form use the new blind/disease ward neg + pos + air. Argh, too many choices!

[gpk]

Any clues as to what s/m/l Horns do? I keep pulling em :(

[Boulderun]

I keep pulling my large horn too, but it never makes anything I want. :(

[Nataichal]

A Tier Two recipe without a proper Tier Three addition will not unlock the full potential of the item. Saying the item is disappointing and needs to be remade from scratch may be a bit excessive - it's still a Tier Two item with an additional benefit from the Tier Three improvement.


Its only excessive if you're trying to make people farm until they're bored to tears, or to realize they just wasted DAYS of cumulated play time creating an item they'll have to replace (with all the resulting negative emotions that go along with it).

[Mavnimo]

(Standard): Altar of Devastation success with Shavarath Shard Formulation! Consumed: Flawless Gem of Escalation, Shavarath High Energy Cell, Superior Focus of Positive Energy, Pure Ethereal Essence. Created: Shard of Supreme Power. Shard of Supreme Power becomes Shard of Supreme Power.

(Standard): Altar of Devastation success with Ultimate Shavarath Transformation! Consumed: Shavarath High Energy Cell, Shard of Supreme Power. Created: +5 Great Commander Green Steel Sceptre. +5 Great Commander Green Steel Sceptre becomes +5 Supreme Tyrant Green Steel Sceptre of Positive Energy.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y122/Mavnimo/SupremeTyrantScepter.jpg


Positive, Thereal, Escalation x3

[MasamuneXero]

Quasi-Para-Elemental combinations (Obsidian, Pumice, etc.) are one step beyond as weird as we wanted to go.


There is difference between those two upgrade chains.


You got air in my lightning!


You got positive energy in my (lots of) air!

Some kind of thundering effect, and the other shocking?

[Myrdinn]

For what I saw, there is a sure thing I can tell:

The first 2 choice, can be switch without problem but you cannot think of the third like it is the first or the second.

What I mean is if you got a neg + fire + pos, it is not gonna give you a balance from the neg + pos, you really need to go neg + pos to got the balance and than go with the elemental one. Same for the fire + water + pos/neg.

So as I get this, I am pretty sure the nicest combination would be in that order:

First would be balance one:
earth + air+ pos/neg
pos + neg + elemental

Then would be:
elemental + same elemental + neg/pos

And last would be:
3 identical

It is speculetion, but these are what I have cumulated from all the other that tried and the cryptic dev answer :P

---------------
Alekia - 16 Wiz - Argonnessen
Cynvan - 15 cleric
Xalek 9 Paly/Fighter

[stz]

Tier 1 - 2 : Material Dominion Earth

Tier 3 : Ethereal Opposition Earth


http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/1163/acidburstackhopxw6.jpg

[UtherSRG]

Tier 1 - 2 : Material Dominion Earth

Tier 3 : Ethereal Escalation Earth


http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/1163/acidburstackhopxw6.jpg

Nice! So EEE is +1/+2/+4 Insight bonus to AC. Very sweet!

[UtherSRG]

Hrm.... no... Are you sure it was EEE and not EOE?

[Borror0]

Tier 3 : Ethereal Opposition Earth


Hrm.... no... Are you sure it was EEE and not EOE?

Err...??:confused:

On another note... +4 Insight AC!!!!:D

[UtherSRG]

I just realized that, thanks to Existential Stalemate, you can make a +6 Int/+6 Wis weapon with Greater Devotion VI.

Maybe I should make a Mystic Theurge after all...

Yup.... EEN//EDP.

You could then do EO[FAWE] for a +4 AC bonus, plus the Elemental on top of the Existential Stalemate. Or make it a +8/+6 with EE[FWE] and also get the Elemental + ES.

[UtherSRG]

Err...??:confused:

On another note... +4 Insight AC!!!!:D

His original posting was EEE, not EOE.

[Wizzly_Bear]

just out of curiosity, have all altar of fecundity combinations been tried yet? the one to make the blanks.

[UtherSRG]

just out of curiosity, have all altar of fecundity combinations been tried yet? the one to make the blanks.

Yes. All possible combinations have been tried.

[Wizzly_Bear]

Yes. All possible combinations have been tried.

very lame that so much would be left out. *sigh* hopefully in 6.1 :rolleyes:

[MysticTheurge]

very lame that so much would be left out. *sigh* hopefully in 6.1 :rolleyes:

Not really that different from other raids. There have always been some items that have been left out.

The total absence of armor does seem a bit odd though.

[The_Cataclysm]

Yes. I would have loved to have had a robe as an option for my rogue.

[Tanka]

Yes. I would have loved to have had a robe as an option for my rogue.
Some new light armor for Tanka would've been cool. Alas, we'll have to wait.

[Wizzly_Bear]

Not really that different from other raids. There have always been some items that have been left out.

The total absence of armor does seem a bit odd though.

indeed, but to have so many left out of a personal design system just feels wrong to me. im assuming (hopefully correctly) that this will be rectified.

on a side note mt, how do you post screen shots here? found a master's touch scroll and want to show it.

[The_Cataclysm]

indeed, but to have so many left out of a personal design system just feels wrong to me. im assuming (hopefully correctly) that this will be rectified.

on a side note mt, how do you post screen shots here? found a master's touch scroll and want to show it.

The only reason I could see for them leaving armor out for now is maybe to deal with customizing of the looks (least one can hope).

As for images use the img tag to post a screenshot (proper format is url ), but last I checked it can only be done on certain forums (like this one)

[Angelus_dead]

The total absence of armor does seem a bit odd though.
That's very understandable. Armor choices would've been a lot more work, not just in artwork but also game design. And that would be a surfeit of rewards anyhow.

The lack of any good non-khopesh melee weapon is much more confusing.

[MysticTheurge]

Armor choices would've been a lot more work, not just in artwork but also game design.

In theory, you could've just treated armors as items.

But I suppose really, you'd want a whole different set of abilities to craft on them.

[Borror0]

The lack of any good non-khopesh melee weapon is much more confusing.

Well, longswords aren't bad weapons.. but yeah, all the other are missing.

[Wizzly_Bear]

That's very understandable. Armor choices would've been a lot more work, not just in artwork but also game design. And that would be a surfeit of rewards anyhow.

The lack of any good non-khopesh melee weapon is much more confusing.
i personally think that at 2d8 and 3d6 that the maul and gs are quite nice, especially once more combinations of upgrades get figured out.

[Angelus_dead]

i personally think that at 2d8 and 3d6 that the maul and gs are quite nice, especially once more combinations of upgrades get figured out.
If I could choose a 3d6 19-20/x2 greatsword or a 1d12 20/x3 greataxe, I'd take the latter.
If I could choose a 2d8 20/x3 maul or a 1d12 20/x3 greataxe, I'd take the latter.
In fact... in either of those cases, if the greataxe was weirdly shrunk to 1d8 damage, it would still be superior.

When you've got +19 str, +12 power attack, +2 dwarf melee, and +8 bard song going for you... then the thing that matters about the weapon isn't the additive base damage- it's the multiplicative critical factors.

[Borror0]

When you've got +19 str, +12 power attack, +2 dwarf melee, and +8 bard song going for you... then the thing that matters about the weapon isn't the additive base damage- it's the multiplicative critical factors.

Actually, a Green Steel Maul is way better than a +5 Greataxe. Same attack speed, more base damage, same critical multiplier.

[MysticTheurge]

If I could choose a 2d8 20/x3 maul or a 1d12 20/x3 greataxe, I'd take the latter.

Are Mauls x3 critical or is this a typo? If it's not a typo, doesn't this kind of go against your point (it's the critical multiplier that matters)?

Or is the difference really only the +2 (+6 on a crit) damage from dwarven enhancements? If so, doesn't the higher average base damage (average 9 vs. average 6.5) sort of make up for that?

[Wizzly_Bear]

If I could choose a 3d6 19-20/x2 greatsword or a 1d12 20/x3 greataxe, I'd take the latter.
If I could choose a 2d8 20/x3 maul or a 1d12 20/x3 greataxe, I'd take the latter.
In fact... in either of those cases, if the greataxe was weirdly shrunk to 1d8 damage, it would still be superior.

When you've got +19 str, +12 power attack, +2 dwarf melee, and +8 bard song going for you... then the thing that matters about the weapon isn't the additive base damage- it's the multiplicative critical factors.


Actually, a Green Steel Maul is way better than a +5 Greataxe. Same attack speed, more base damage, same critical multiplier.
umm, yeah, why would you take a 1d12/x3 over a 2d8/x3 with both having the same speed? green maul average per non crit = 9 base, greataxe = 6.5. with crit its maul = 27, axe = 19.5.

and even with a slower attack rate, dps of a green gs is better than a greataxe. average base hit for green gs = 10.5, nearly double the axe, and an axe is nowehere near close to twice as fast.

green maul ~= green gs
both > regular greataxe

[Wizzly_Bear]

Are Mauls x3 critical or is this a typo? If it's not a typo, doesn't this kind of go against your point (it's the critical multiplier that matters)?

Or is the difference really only the +2 (+6 on a crit) damage from dwarven enhancements? If so, doesn't the higher average base damage (average 9 vs. average 6.5) sort of make up for that?
mauls are x3 on crit

[Borror0]

Are Mauls x3 critical or is this a typo?

Maul are x3, except maybe +2 Mauls if they haven't fixed that... but that's not revelant so... :p

[jjflanigan]

Quasi-Para-Elemental combinations (Obsidian, Pumice, etc.) are one step beyond as weird as we wanted to go.

BLAST! I wish you could have posted this before I did the Air / Fire upgrade, I would have gone ahead with my original plan of Air / Air positive if I had known.

Ah well, back to collecting to make a new item.

[MysticTheurge]

BLAST! I wish you could have posted this before I did the Air / Fire upgrade, I would have gone ahead with my original plan of Air / Air positive if I had known.

Ah well, back to collecting to make a new item.

I don't think he said that there were no combinations that start with a paraelement.

You should still upgrade it! We need to check all the combos!

[UtherSRG]

I don't think he said that there were no combinations that start with a paraelement.

You should still upgrade it! We need to check all the combos!

Right. If quasi-paras are out, that still leave the 4 elements on top of the 4 para-elementals.... or more likely adding a third element to the existing pair. So for jjflanigan's Air + Fire, Water and Earth as a 3rd tier upgrade has some great potential.

[MysticTheurge]

Right. If quasi-paras are out, that still leave the 4 elements on top of the 4 para-elementals.... or more likely adding a third element to the existing pair. So for jjflanigan's Air + Fire, Water and Earth as a 3rd tier upgrade has some great potential.

It seems likely to me that third tier combo effects are actually looking at the second tier combo effect + the third tier upgrade.

So for JJ's item, I'd look for things that would combine well with Smoke (Earth maybe?)

[Coldin]

All this talk about quasi-para-elemental stuff has got me confused. Maybe someone can clear a few questions up for me?

So first off..all tier 2 upgrades combos will give some special ability, correct? That's everything from going Positive + Positive, to Postive + Water, to Water + Air, ect.

Second, Does anyone know if the actual order of the first 2 upgrades matters at all? Or would going Air then Positive be exactly the same as going Positive then Air?

Third, does anyone know if the order of the first 2 upgrades effects the third upgrade? Eladrin's comments seem to indicate that's possible.

That brings me to my 4th question. Will say going Air + Positive + Air give any special third tier ability? Or does it have to be a triple upgrade, or a double plus an extra to get a special 3rd tier power?

That's all, any answers would be helpful.

[Snoggy]

On another note... +4 Insight AC!!!!:D


Yay! Now I know what my third upgrade is going to be!

[UtherSRG]

All this talk about quasi-para-elemental stuff has got me confused. Maybe someone can clear a few questions up for me?

So first off..all tier 2 upgrades combos will give some special ability, correct? That's everything from going Positive + Positive, to Postive + Water, to Water + Air, ect.

Second, Does anyone know if the actual order of the first 2 upgrades matters at all? Or would going Air then Positive be exactly the same as going Positive then Air?

Third, does anyone know if the order of the first 2 upgrades effects the third upgrade? Eladrin's comments seem to indicate that's possible.

That brings me to my 4th question. Will say going Air + Positive + Air give any special third tier ability? Or does it have to be a triple upgrade, or a double plus an extra to get a special 3rd tier power?

That's all, any answers would be helpful.

Yes, all tier 2 upgrades appear to have a special ability or effect; the order does not matter: Air + Positive and Positive + Air produce the same special effect or ability. It is likely that the order of the first two also do not matter to the 3rd tier upgrade. Eladrin's comment was on the total ordering: Air + Air + Positive is not the same as Air + Positive + Air, but Air + Positive + Air and Positive + Air + Air would be the same. It is unknown just which combinations of 2nd tier combo + 3rd tier upgrade produce special effects or abilities. So far all straight triples have shown to have a special ability or effect. Positive + Negative + Negative did not have a special effect or ability above the 2nd tier combo.

[Myrdinn]

All this talk about quasi-para-elemental stuff has got me confused. Maybe someone can clear a few questions up for me?

So first off..all tier 2 upgrades combos will give some special ability, correct? That's everything from going Positive + Positive, to Postive + Water, to Water + Air, ect.

Second, Does anyone know if the actual order of the first 2 upgrades matters at all? Or would going Air then Positive be exactly the same as going Positive then Air?

Third, does anyone know if the order of the first 2 upgrades effects the third upgrade? Eladrin's comments seem to indicate that's possible.

That brings me to my 4th question. Will say going Air + Positive + Air give any special third tier ability? Or does it have to be a triple upgrade, or a double plus an extra to get a special 3rd tier power?

That's all, any answers would be helpful.

To answer your question:

1- That is correct, just that some effect are nearly not useful, so check them out first :)

2- It doesn't matter at all, it will give you the first base to put your third upgrade

3- Yes, the first 2 affect the third one, the aspect you got is the important thing when you combine it with the third upgrade.
So going Air + Positive + Air will be different from going Air + Air + Pos, but the same as going Pos + air + air, and I am pretty sure the combination air + air + positive would be better than air + pos + air (if this one even got one). And if you already on air + pos, I would probably go water or fire that could go well with lightning, the other would probably give nothing as special ability.

4- Think my 3 answer the 4 :)

My bet would be these upgrade give special third ability (the order of first 2 doesn't matter since it give you the aspect from which you work from):

elemental + same elemental + neg/pos (sure of these)
earth + air + neg/pos/fire/water (sure of these)
fire + water + neg/pos/earth/air (unsure, but make sense :P)
neg + pos + element (sure)
neg + neg + element (unsure)
pos + pos + element (unsure)

This would give us 28 combinations that can have special effect (+ the 6 same + same + same)

[juniorpfactors]

NEW The following green steel raid loot effects have been changed as follows. Any items that already have these effects will update to the new ones automatically:
Acid, Electricity, Fire, and Cold Absorption 5% now absorb 10%.
Acid, Electricity, Fire, and Cold Absorption 10% now absorb 15%.
Weapons with Good Burst, Evil Burst, Good Blast, and Evil Blast will now bypass appropriate damage reduction properly and will have the holy or unholy particle effects on them. In addition, the blasts now do damage on criticals and additional damage on natural 20's.
Acid Blast, Shocking Blast, Flaming Blast, and Icy Blast now have their proper elemental particle effects. In addition these effects now do damage on criticals and additional damage on natural 20's.

[UtherSRG]

Cambo: a suggestion for the current recipe listings.... when you update the listings, could you put the most recent message you used someplace in the listing, so that folks coming here fresh know where to pick up the discussion? That way they don't think they have to read everything, but can look over the recipes and jump ahead to see if more have been discovered but have not yet been included in the listing.

[Myrdinn]

Yes, all tier 2 upgrades appear to have a special ability or effect; the order does not matter: Air + Positive and Positive + Air produce the same special effect or ability. It is likely that the order of the first two also do not matter to the 3rd tier upgrade. Eladrin's comment was on the total ordering: Air + Air + Positive is not the same as Air + Positive + Air, but Air + Positive + Air and Positive + Air + Air would be the same. It is unknown just which combinations of 2nd tier combo + 3rd tier upgrade produce special effects or abilities. So far all straight triples have shown to have a special ability or effect. Positive + Negative + Negative did not have a special effect or ability above the 2nd tier combo.

Yes, because the pos + neg + neg disrupt the balance, so if he had gone pos + neg + element, there would have been a nice effect on it, and I can also add that any balance item with a different third upgrade will give the best special in there :)

This is my prediction, but after reading all the post, I am sure of it :)

You guys can try to prove me wrong :D

Read my earlier post to know which one should have the best special effect on third upgrade

[UtherSRG]

NEW The following green steel raid loot effects have been changed as follows. Any items that already have these effects will update to the new ones automatically:
Acid, Electricity, Fire, and Cold Absorption 5% now absorb 10%.
Acid, Electricity, Fire, and Cold Absorption 10% now absorb 15%.
Weapons with Good Burst, Evil Burst, Good Blast, and Evil Blast will now bypass appropriate damage reduction properly and will have the holy or unholy particle effects on them. In addition, the blasts now do damage on criticals and additional damage on natural 20's.
Acid Blast, Shocking Blast, Flaming Blast, and Icy Blast now have their proper elemental particle effects. In addition these effects now do damage on criticals and additional damage on natural 20's.

Yay WDA!

Also: The Aspect of Water effect now allows you to cast the new cleric spell "Panacea".

[Mad_Bombardier]

Quasi-Para-Elemental combinations (Obsidian, Pumice, etc.) are one step beyond as weird as we wanted to go.

There is difference between those two upgrade chains.

(air+positive+air)
You got air in my lightning!
(air+air+positive)
You got positive energy in my (lots of) air!Wow, Eladrin. That info helps a lot! :) Though, I'm a bit confused that you are saying something is "beyond as weird as you wanted to go." :p Ok, folks, no more Quasi-para-elemental nonsense! (yet?) :D Using that shred of info, Air + Air + Positive = Air Affinity, Aspect of Air, and maybe Greater Lightning? (or something to that effect.) Would Positive + Positive + Air result in the same tier3 effect?

JJ, keep trying with the Lightning. Let's assume that repeat Positive and Air are a no-go. What would mix with well Lightning... Earth to ground it? Water to conduct it?

[MysticTheurge]

JJ, keep trying with the Lightning. Let's assume that repeat Positive and Air are a no-go. What would mix with well Lightning... Earth to ground it? Water to conduct it?

JJ has Fire/Air, so smoke. ;)

(And actually Smoke + Fire might make something Incendiary Cloud-ish. So I don't know that I'd rule out all the X/Y/X possibilities just yet.)

[Coldin]

Thanks for the answers folks. That helps a lot in trying to understand this system and know what I want to create.

[Mad_Bombardier]

JJ has Fire/Air, so smoke. ;)

(And actually Smoke + Fire might make something Incendiary Cloud-ish. So I don't know that I'd rule out all the X/Y/X possibilities just yet.)Thanks for fixing. Ok, Air + Fire = Smoke. If there is no Spark, what would complement Smoke? More Fire... maybe you're on to something MT!

[Eladrin]

Wow, Eladrin. That info helps a lot! :) Though, I'm a bit confused that you are saying something is "beyond as weird as you wanted to go." :p
Quasi-elements are already pretty obscure. Quasi-para-elements are one step beyond them. :)


Using that shred of info, Air + Air + Positive = Air Affinity, Aspect of Air, and maybe Greater Lightning? (or something to that effect.) Would Positive + Positive + Air result in the same tier3 effect?
Air + Air + Positive will not result in the same thing as Positive + Positive + Air.

There's still one thing that people haven't yet discovered regarding upgrading Para or Quasi elemental combinations.

[UtherSRG]

There's still one thing that people haven't yet discovered regarding upgrading Para or Quasi elemental combinations.

Tease! :D

[Mad_Bombardier]

Air + Air + Positive will not result in the same thing as Positive + Positive + Air.

There's still one thing that people haven't yet discovered regarding upgrading Para or Quasi elemental combinations.Well, now I'm confused. If Air + Positive = Lightning and Positive + Air = Lightning. I would have guessed that (bigger) Air + Positive = (bigger) Lightning and (bigger) Positive + Air = (bigger) Lightning. But, since you're telling us that's not the case, I guess we'll have to wait and see. :) You and your riddles... /cry. :p

If it's limited paths for tier3 bonus effects, maybe only the pure elements can be upgraded with energy to achieve a bonus effect? But, then again, you did just mention upgrading "para or quasi elemental combos," so there's gotta be something there, right? :D

[Eladrin]

Well, now I'm confused. If Air + Positive = Lightning and Positive + Air = Lightning. I would have guessed that (bigger) Air + Positive = (bigger) Lightning and (bigger) Positive + Air = (bigger) Lightning. But, since you're telling us that's not the case, I guess we'll have to wait and see. :) You and your riddles... /cry. :p

If it's limited paths for tier3 bonus effects, maybe only the pure elements can be upgraded with energy to achieve a bonus effect? But, then again, you did just mention upgrading "para or quasi elemental combos," so there's gotta be something there, right? :D
I'm trying to help, really, in a way that won't end up with Piloto poisoning my basil pad thai, not tease. :)

A weapon with, say, "Magma I" on it at Tier Two can be upgraded to "Magma II" at Tier Three.

Pure elements are the easiest ones to upgrade since you can just slap another Fire onto that Fire stick, and it'll work. Para, Quasi, and "special" elemental combinations are a bit trickier.

[Mad_Bombardier]

I'm trying to help, really, in a way that won't end up with Piloto poisoning my basil pad thai, not tease. :)

A weapon with, say, "Magma I" on it at Tier Two can be upgraded to "Magma II" at Tier Three.

Pure elements are the easiest ones to upgrade since you can just slap another Fire onto that Fire stick, and it'll work. Para, Quasi, and "special" elemental combinations are a bit trickier./cheer! Now, we just have to find the combos for "Magma II," etc.

[nbhs275]

im doing the same upgrade path on my SS as that e/e/e khopesh, but with air. So the question will be, whether the third tier always gives +4, or if thats for earth only.

[juniorpfactors]

must be related to the horns...... noone knows what to use em in

[UtherSRG]

must be related to the horns...... noone knows what to use em in

It's not just that we don't know... it's that the altar they are attuned to rejects them.

[MysticTheurge]

Well, now I'm confused. If Air + Positive = Lightning and Positive + Air = Lightning. I would have guessed that (bigger) Air + Positive = (bigger) Lightning and (bigger) Positive + Air = (bigger) Lightning. But, since you're telling us that's not the case, I guess we'll have to wait and see. :) You and your riddles... /cry. :p

Well to be accurate, Air + Positive = Aspect of Lightning and Air Affinity. Positive + Air = Aspect of Lightning and Positive Affinity.

It could be that the third tier upgrade is still dependent on which the first tier upgrade was.

[UtherSRG]

Well to be accurate, Air + Positive = Aspect of Lightning and Air Affinity. Positive + Air = Aspect of Lightning and Positive Affinity.

It could be that the third tier upgrade is still dependent on which the first tier upgrade was.

Quite! So a Positive + Negative + Negative may yield something, while a Negative + Positive + Negative may not....

[jjflanigan]

I'm not sure what upgrade path I'm going to use for the Smoke (Air + Fire) item now. I was trying to decide what would "logically" flow with it. Normally, when making a fire, you blow on the embers when they start smoking to get the spark to ignite...so more air might be a good idea...but, of course, throwing more fire into it would tend to make it bigger as well.

It will still be a while before I'll get the opportunity anyway, so plenty of time to make up my mind...I was just so excited about making "sparks" or "fumes" :)

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

I'm trying to help, really, in a way that won't end up with Piloto poisoning my basil pad thai, not tease. :)

A weapon with, say, "Magma I" on it at Tier Two can be upgraded to "Magma II" at Tier Three.

Pure elements are the easiest ones to upgrade since you can just slap another Fire onto that Fire stick, and it'll work. Para, Quasi, and "special" elemental combinations are a bit trickier.

Hmmm.

In that case, my speculation is that for each tier two effect (Magma, Lightning, Existential Stalemate, etc.) there is only ONE "correct" addition at tier three, which will fully unlock the power of the effect. For example, perhaps you add fire to existential stalemate to get an eternal conflict effect, maybe water to Balance of Land and Sky. Similarly, if you already have two of one element/energy, the "correct" third option is the third tier of that element. Under this scenario, there would be the same number of tier three affects as tier two (21). This makes more sense from a development standpoint as well, as there is significantly fewer effects to worry about.

So, assuming that this may be the case... any speculation on which third tier energies "fully unlock" which second tier effects' potential?

Master Kadish

[UtherSRG]

The following green steel raid loot effects have been changed as follows. Any items that already have these effects will update to the new ones automatically:

* Acid, Electricity, Fire, and Cold Absorption 5% now absorb 10%.
* Acid, Electricity, Fire, and Cold Absorption 10% now absorb 15%.


This would be the 1st & 2nd upgrades for Material + Opposition + element. Presumably this means the 3rd tier is 20%, which we had previously presumed to be 15%.

[Missing_Minds]

I'm trying something a bit different and probably underwhelming, but it fits my barb's build for now. elect guard the entier way. I'm almost at the 2nd tier just needing more ingredients and learn it a bit better.

just really really really sucks that only a d4, and 50% hit rate at that? I mean lvl 1 and 2 robes of lesser guard are a lot better. I'm praying for something like a knock down effect with 3 tiers of it. Who knows.

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh50/missingminds/bracer_stage1.jpg

[jjflanigan]

I'm trying to help, really, in a way that won't end up with Piloto poisoning my basil pad thai, not tease. :)

A weapon with, say, "Magma I" on it at Tier Two can be upgraded to "Magma II" at Tier Three.

Pure elements are the easiest ones to upgrade since you can just slap another Fire onto that Fire stick, and it'll work. Para, Quasi, and "special" elemental combinations are a bit trickier.

Well, my question to this would be -- Is there an in game way to deduce what you would have to do for that upgrade? I.e. If you have a Magma Cloak, is there some way, in the context of the game, to determine what the proper additive at tier 3 would be to move that up to "Magma II"?

[nbhs275]

I'm trying something a bit different and probably underwhelming, but it fits my barb's build for now. elect guard the entier way. I'm almost at the 2nd tier just needing more ingredients and learn it a bit better.

just really really really sucks that only a d4, and 50% hit rate at that? I mean lvl 1 and 2 robes of lesser guard are a lot better. I'm praying for something like a knock down effect with 3 tiers of it. Who knows.

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh50/missingminds/bracer_stage1.jpg

knockdown or huge static discharge when hit? I think a random 40-50 damage spike to someone hitting you would be great, especially in pvp.

[Missing_Minds]

knockdown or huge static discharge when hit? I think a random 40-50 damage spike to someone hitting you would be great, especially in pvp.

I can only hope that the exponental growth may be worth something. I mean tier two if I read correctly is the 3 clicks of haste. Emm... can't click when in rage or madstone so that is pretty much useless for me. Pity. Because of that I've given some serious consideration to earth for the balance 10, deflect 3 and resist 3. But with the first one I think I'm better off just sticking with the original idea. This will give others an idea because well.. I doubt many if any will. And by that time more information will be out there about this stuff.

And then when we get more crafting, we'll get to go through this all over again. ;)

[Wulf_Ratbane]

I just got access to the Altar of Fecundity, and only have 3/5 for my Stone. Still, I've been trying to keep up to date on all these threads.

But apologies in advance if I am polluting the thread with ignorant questions:

Has anybody tried recharging their energy source WITH an imbued green steel item, instead of with "junk"?

[Wulf_Ratbane]

Well, my question to this would be -- Is there an in game way to deduce what you would have to do for that upgrade?

This sort of worries me the most. I hope there is a logic to EVERY possible item you can create, and that there are no "Special Entries" on the table of possible items that nobody (except a close friend of a Dev...) could ever hope to stumble across in play. (ie, Festival Twig + Glass Bauble + Tasty Ham...)

That kind of thing would really annoy me.

[Ilandrya]

Here's a thought. I've seen a green steel item be bound an attuned on the stone of change. What if you perform the adamantine ritual on it and it changes from green steel to adamantine, thereby cleansing it of it's taint (the thirst for suffering that takes hp from you over time when using more than one green steel accessory).

[MysticTheurge]

Quite! So a Positive + Negative + Negative may yield something, while a Negative + Positive + Negative may not....

Interesting thought. I was actually debating a Negative - Positive - Positive combination. And might do it even if it means I "take one for the team."

[Mad_Bombardier]

Interesting thought. I was actually debating a Negative - Positive - Positive combination. And might do it even if it means I "take one for the team."IIRC, Shade did a Negative/Positive/Positive accessory with no tier3 bonus effect. (here) (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1569755&postcount=844)

[UtherSRG]

Interesting thought. I was actually debating a Negative - Positive - Positive combination. And might do it even if it means I "take one for the team."

Attaboy! :)

My wizard is crafting a scepter to EEF//EEN. She'll also be crafting goggles, which will start as EEN//EEF. I'll do EEN on both of them at the third, allowing me to check both NFN and FNN combinations. (Or maybe I'll do EEF on both of them, checking both NFF and FNF.... dunno since I haven't gotten a completed 4th zone yet.... so I have plenty of time to decide, depending on what other people craft in the meantime.)

[UtherSRG]

IIRC, Shade did a Negative/Positive/Positive accessory with no tier3 bonus effect. (here) (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1569755&postcount=844)

Ah, I thought it was the other way around. So it may be that NPN has some decent effect.

[Mad_Bombardier]

This sort of worries me the most. I hope there is a logic to EVERY possible item you can create, and that there are no "Special Entries" on the table of possible items that nobody (except a close friend of a Dev...) could ever hope to stumble across in play. (ie, Festival Twig + Glass Bauble + Tasty Ham...)

That kind of thing would really annoy me.I think we're safe. Most mundane items won't even go in the Altar. So far, there appears to be a very rigid schema for manufactured ingredients (all sizes at all altars), green steel items, and green steel item upgrades (at all altars). We've mostly been pondering combinations of upgrades that grant bonus effects.

[Pecky]

I wonder if its possible to create "upgraded" foci, gems and essenses. Right now everyone is creating the base ones and combining them for quick effects but what if you take 4 foci + energy cell or 4 gems + energy cell. Has that been tried and disqualified yet?

Or maybe you need any number of tier 1, 2 and 3 gems to create a new type.

[apious1]

From everything I have seen so far, most people are doing combo's of the same Gem Type and Essence Type and then mix n' matching with the Focus Type, e.g.
Focus Type | Gem Type | Essence Type
Air | Dominion | Ethereal
Fire | Dominion | Ethereal
Air | Dominion | Ethereal

However, there are a total of three upgrades available and the only Tier 2 ingredient with three types is the gem, so I wonder if the "Special" upgrade the Devs are referring to is a combo of the same Essence Type and Focus type but a different Gem Types for each upgarde, e.g.
Focus Type | Gem Type | Essence Type
Air | Dominion | Ethereal
Air | Escalation | Ethereal
Air | Opposition | Ethereal

[MysticTheurge]

IIRC, Shade did a Negative/Positive/Positive accessory with no tier3 bonus effect. (here) (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1569755&postcount=844)

Oh well. Scratch that. Back to Negative/Positive/Element.

[Wulf_Ratbane]

I think we're safe. Most mundane items won't even go in the Altar. So far, there appears to be a very rigid schema for manufactured ingredients (all sizes at all altars), green steel items, and green steel item upgrades (at all altars). We've mostly been pondering combinations of upgrades that grant bonus effects.

Thanks MB. I had seen that the altars are predisposed to reject most ingredients outright; just curious what's actually been tried.

Did you have any comment about using a green steel item to recharge the energy source? Has that been tried? It seems like the sort of grind that Turbine might want, and it seemed reasonable to me that nobody would be inclined to throw their hard work away to test it. (Big props to anybody who has tried...)


From everything I have seen so far, most people are doing combo's of the same Gem Type and Essence Type and then mix n' matching with the Focus Type.

However, there are a total of three upgrades available and the only Tier 2 ingredient with three types is the gem, so I wonder if the "Special" upgrade the Devs are referring to is a combo of the same Essence Type and Focus type but a different Gem Types for each upgarde, e.g.
Focus Type | Gem Type | Essence Type
Air | Dominion | Ethereal
Air | Escalation | Ethereal
Air | Opposition | Ethereal

I'm down with this theory. Still, all of these possibilities exist in the combo tables that have been put together so far. Nobody seems to have tried it yet, but it doesn't seem to require any great leap of intuition. (Not that Eladrin's post implied that a great leap of intuition was required.)

[jjflanigan]

I don't know, I love puzzles and figuring things out...but I don't like blindly stabbing at things.

Right now I have a helm with AEE / FEE with Air Affinity and Aspect of Smoke (assumed to be "Smoke I"). Hints have been passed that there should be a way to get it up to "Smoke II"...however I'm struggling to find anything in the game that would allow me to figure out what will provide that upgrade.

If we assume that it is equally likely to "guess" any of the combinations for a tier 3 upgrade and have it be the "right one"...that's a whole lot guesswork involved...Any of the 6 focuses, any of the 3 gems and either of the 2 essences could be the special upgrade I'd need to perform at tier 3 to unlock the potential in the item. If there's nothing in game to help me track down the answer to how to upgrade it and unlock it, that makes me kind of sad. It's a lot of work to collect everything needed to get to the point I am now. If I spend a couple weeks+ of time collecting tier 3 upgrade ingredients and then happen to pick the wrong one...I've basically just "wasted" a long amount of time because I had to guess at how to upgrade Smoke I to become Smoke II. Also, there's no way to know if I was even close or not...so I could try the entire process again only to end up with nada.

If there are hints and tips hidden around in game that I have missed, that'd be great. But I haven't seen anything so far that would point you in the right direction so you aren't just winging it to see what works.

[apious1]

Here is my only thing, all of the tier 3 upgrades so far are BAD ***, and the ones we have seen so far are all the same line which the Devs said is the easiest but better tier 3 upgrades exist. And...they couldn't have created TOO many tier 3 upgrades because there just isn't that many options in the game. So...here is what I came up with:
Focus Type 1 | Focus Type 2 | Focus Type 3
Air | Air | Air
Air | Earth | Air
Air | Fire | Air
Air | Negative | Air
Air | Positive | Air
Air | Water | Air
Earth | Air | Earth
Earth | Earth | Earth
Earth | Fire | Earth
Earth | Negative | Earth
Earth | Positive | Earth
Earth | Water | Earth
Fire | Air | Fire
Fire | Earth | Fire
Fire | Fire | Fire
Fire | Negative | Fire
Fire | Positive | Fire
Fire | Water | Fire
Negative | Air | Negative
Negative | Earth | Negative
Negative | Fire | Negative
Negative | Negative | Negative
Negative | Positive | Negative
Negative | Water | Negative
Positive | Air | Positive
Positive | Earth | Positive
Positive | Fire | Positive
Positive | Negative | Positive
Positive | Positive | Positive
Positive | Water | Positive
Water | Air | Water
Water | Earth | Water
Water | Fire | Water
Water | Negative | Water
Water | Positive | Water
Water | Water | Water

Focus Type | Essence Type | Gem Type 1 | Gem Type 2 | Gem Type 3
Air | Ethereal | Dominion | Escalation | Opposition
Earth | Ethereal | Dominion | Escalation | Opposition
Fire | Ethereal | Dominion | Escalation | Opposition
Negative | Ethereal | Dominion | Escalation | Opposition
Positive | Ethereal | Dominion | Escalation | Opposition
Water | Ethereal | Dominion | Escalation | Opposition
Air | Material | Dominion | Escalation | Opposition
Earth | Material | Dominion | Escalation | Opposition
Fire | Material | Dominion | Escalation | Opposition
Negative | Material | Dominion | Escalation | Opposition
Positive | Material | Dominion | Escalation | Opposition
Water | Material | Dominion | Escalation | Opposition

This would generate a total of 48 tier 3 upgrades which is a hell of a lot of super uber upgrades but makes the most sense.

Edit: BTW, the biggest problem with trying to follow an upgrade line using three different types of gems is the upgrades you get are COMPLETELY different so you take the biggest chance following this upgrade line. BUT, often times taking the biggest chance reaps the biggest reward.

[Pecky]

You might want to try using the code tags for that. Atleast it would preserve your spacing.

[MysticTheurge]

If we assume that it is equally likely to "guess" any of the combinations for a tier 3 upgrade and have it be the "right one"...that's a whole lot guesswork involved...Any of the 6 focuses, any of the 3 gems and either of the 2 essences could be the special upgrade I'd need to perform at tier 3 to unlock the potential in the item.

I don't know. So far only the focuses have mattered, so I'd stick with that for now.

Eladrin's also pretty strongly hinted that paraelement + pos/neg isn't in the system.

Which means you're left with four possibilities:

Smoke + Air
Smoke + Fire
Smoke + Water
Smoke + Earth

I can see a few possibilities there already. Smoke + Fire, as I said, could make something incendiary cloud-ish. Smoke + Earth could make something cloudkill-ish.

If I were you, I'd go with one of those.

[apious1]

One more thing, if you put all of the current Tier 1 upgrades into a spread sheet and sort it by Gem Type, then Essence Type, then Focus Type you will see a patern of sorts. For instance, all Gem Type: Dominion + Essence Type: Ethereal are Lore (i.e. Fire, Electric, etc) items while the contrast is Gem Type: Dominion + Essence Type: Material which are all Guard (i.e. Fire, Electric, etc) items, e.g. Lore for Ethereal and Guard for Material. That is just on items, here is a better contrast:
Focus Type | Gem Type | Essence Type
Air | Dominion | Ethereal
Creates Caster Weapon - Greater Magnetism VI

Focus Type | Gem Type | Essence Type
Air | Dominion | Material
Creates Melee Weapon - Shocking Burst

I used this logic to determine that using the different Gems for each upgrade would result in a tier 3 upgrade.

[Wulf_Ratbane]

I'm not sure I am following you apious1. I'm not sure how your recipes would actually go into the altar.

Another question from the ignorant... Surely someone has tested this:

--------------
Known:
FOCUS + GEM + ESSENCE + Shard of Supreme Power + Shavarath High Energy Cell = IMBUED SHARD OF SUPREME POWER.

Question:
FOCUS + GEM + ESSENCE + Imbued Shard of Supreme Power + Shavarath High Energy Cell = ???
--------------

And another:

Known:
Imbued Shard of Supreme Power + Green Steel item + Shavarath High Energy Cell = "Supreme" Green Steel item

It appears there are still 2 open spots in the altar. Can you put in two more Imbued Shards, or +1 shard (total of 2 shards) and +1 energy cell (total of 2 energy cells)?
--------------

As I said I am doing my best to keep up to date on the testing that's been done so far. I'm relying mostly on Inkdrop's spreadsheet to see what has been tested so far, but only the Green Steel tab contains data on "Tried and Failed" combinations.

Nothing I have read (or suggested myself...) appears to follow the sort of logical progression I would expect the Supreme quasi- and para- recipes to follow.

[Ilandrya]

NEW The following green steel raid loot effects have been changed as follows. Any items that already have these effects will update to the new ones automatically:
Acid, Electricity, Fire, and Cold Absorption 5% now absorb 10%.
Acid, Electricity, Fire, and Cold Absorption 10% now absorb 15%.
Weapons with Good Burst, Evil Burst, Good Blast, and Evil Blast will now bypass appropriate damage reduction properly and will have the holy or unholy particle effects on them. In addition, the blasts now do damage on criticals and additional damage on natural 20's.
Acid Blast, Shocking Blast, Flaming Blast, and Icy Blast now have their proper elemental particle effects. In addition these effects now do damage on criticals and additional damage on natural 20's.

Where did you get this info?

[jjflanigan]

I don't know. So far only the focuses have mattered, so I'd stick with that for now.

Eladrin's also pretty strongly hinted that paraelement + pos/neg isn't in the system.

Which means you're left with four possibilities:

Smoke + Air
Smoke + Fire
Smoke + Water
Smoke + Earth

I can see a few possibilities there already. Smoke + Fire, as I said, could make something incendiary cloud-ish. Smoke + Earth could make something cloudkill-ish.

If I were you, I'd go with one of those.


Yeah, the problem stems from all of them being "logical" :) If you blow on a fire that is smoking, you can normally build it back up to become more intense. Obviously tossing more fire in there would increase it. If you poured water over it, it could possibly make a large amount of steam, but that would normally totally extinguish the fire. And earth would smother it out completely. That makes me think that Air or Fire would be the best chance for "Smoke II" as the other two options seem to completely change aspect of the item (i.e. steam from water or ...well, not sure with earth since it would basically stop the fire and smoke).

I'll end up picking one once I can get enough large ingredients to try...I'll try to do some research / thinking to see if I can come up with one that will make the most "sense", but it will most likely come down to which one I get the ingredients to make first :D

[juniorpfactors]

todays release notes

[UtherSRG]

Where did you get this info?

These were copied from today's Weekly Development Activities. You can find the post here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=136702).

[apious1]

I'm not sure I am following you apious1. I'm not sure how your recipes would actually go into the altar.
1st Upgrade:
Focus Type | Essence Type | Gem Type
Air | Ethereal | Dominion

2nd Upgrade:
Focus Type | Essence Type | Gem Type
Air | Ethereal | Escalation

3rd Upgrade:
Focus Type | Essence Type | Gem Type
Air | Ethereal | Opposition

[MysticTheurge]

I'll end up picking one once I can get enough large ingredients to try...I'll try to do some research / thinking to see if I can come up with one that will make the most "sense", but it will most likely come down to which one I get the ingredients to make first :D

For me, it's largely going to be a question of what third tier ability, rather than what third tier combo-ability, I want.

That way, if I end up with a combo-ability, great. If not, I've still got an item I want.

[Endrik]

(Standard): Altar of Invasion success with Shavarath Shard Formulation! Consumed: Shavarath Low Energy Cell, Cloudy Gem of Opposition, Inferior Focus of Air, Diluted Ethereal Essence. Created: Shard of Power. Shard of Power becomes Shard of Power.

(Standard): Altar of Invasion success with Shavarath Transformation! Consumed: Shavarath Low Energy Cell, Shard of Power. Created: Green Steel Goggles. Green Steel Goggles becomes Lieutenant Green Steel Goggles of Resistance (Reflex).

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/1308/ltgreensteelreflexgogglxr0.th.jpg (http://img259.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ltgreensteelreflexgogglxr0.jpg)

I guess I'll make it Air/Air/Air just to see what happens... *sigh* back to farming.

[Wulf_Ratbane]

1st Upgrade:
Focus Type | Essence Type | Gem Type
Air | Ethereal | Dominion

2nd Upgrade:
Focus Type | Essence Type | Gem Type
Air | Ethereal | Escalation

3rd Upgrade:
Focus Type | Essence Type | Gem Type
Air | Ethereal | Opposition

Ok. That's what I thought.

Although presumably, since we're talking about a Level II Upgrade (Para-II or Quasi-II), your second upgrade can't be Air. It would have to be something else to mix.

And in which case you are saying the only way to get a Para-II or Quasi-II special out of the third tier is to make sure you use one of each of the Gem Types at each stage, which means careful planning and a lot less flexibility in combos. (Which is reasonable.)

[Ilandrya]

A weapon with, say, "Magma I" on it at Tier Two can be upgraded to "Magma II" at Tier Three.



Hmmm... you said "There's still one thing that people haven't yet discovered regarding upgrading Para or Quasi elemental combinations."

Heres my thought on what this may mean, and this is just a hypothesis.

If you went:

1) earth/fire and got magma at the second upgrade, you will note that your first affinity is listed as earth
2) fire/earth and got magma, you will note that your first affinity is listed as fire

If you add fire for the third upgrade on the first example, that again combines with the first affinity of earth, and maybe you get magma II.
If you add earth for the third upgrade on the second example, that combines with the first affinity of fire, and maybe you get magma II.

So when looking at para/quasi combinations, you want to look at the first affinity to determine what you should add at the third level.



A few other things I'm interested in finding out:

I'm interested to see if my earlier hypothesis on negating the taint of green steel items by using the stone of change to alter the items from green steel to adamantine works.

I know that in some cases, weapons and accessories differ in what they get from the second tier "bonus effect". I'm wondering if the devs took into account on weapons that some characters don't melee. For example, casters use scepters purely for the bonuses to their casting abilities. I'm hoping third tier bonuses, at least in regard to green steel scepters, have taken into account that attack based bonuses don't do anything for non melee types.

Why some items get "Supreme Tyrant, Great Commander" for a title etc at corresponding altars and others don't get this title. I'm wondering if this is a display bug, cuz I'm not seeing any real rhyme or reason to it.

If the devs will create an altar outside the raid for people to do the upgrading they have been having to do in the raid. I'm finding a lot of people are not patient with others when others need to combine/upgrade but they don't. Some people are on time constraints, and some people have valid health issues which lead to impatience, so I think this may be an issue that should be addressed. People shouldn't be feeling pressured here.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Hmmm... you said "There's still one thing that people haven't yet discovered regarding upgrading Para or Quasi elemental combinations."

Heres my thought on what this may mean, and this is just a hypothesis.

If you went:

1) earth/fire and got magma at the second upgrade, you will note that your first affinity is listed as earth
2) fire/earth and got magma, you will note that your first affinity is listed as fire

If you add fire for the third upgrade on the first example, that again combines with the first affinity of earth, and maybe you get magma II.
If you add earth for the third upgrade on the second example, that combines with the first affinity of fire, and maybe you get magma II.

So when looking at para/quasi combinations, you want to look at the first affinity to determine what you should add at the third level.That's how I was reading it, too. But, in a way, that's silly. Fire Affinity has already combined with Earth to make Magma "I". Magma should now be the dominant property. Why should Fire Affinity again combine with more Earth? Unless Affinity is the key factor in the whole process and it is applied to all other upgrades. That certainly didn't happen with Shade's Neg/Pos/Pos accessory. The second Pos didn't grant a bonus effect (and assumingly didn't mix with the Negative Energy Affinity.)

[Myrdinn]

That's how I was reading it, too. But, in a way, that's silly. Fire Affinity has already combined with Earth to make Magma "I". Magma should now be the dominant property. Why should Fire Affinity again combine with more Earth? Unless Affinity is the key factor in the whole process and it is applied to all other upgrades. That certainly didn't happen with Shade's Neg/Pos/Pos accessory. The second Pos didn't grant a bonus effect (and assumingly didn't mix with the Negative Energy Affinity.)

Then what about using the same as the affinity?

Like fire + earth and fire again to keep fire affinity to its maximum? :)

[Ilandrya]

That's how I was reading it, too. But, in a way, that's silly. Fire Affinity has already combined with Earth to make Magma "I". Magma should now be the dominant property. Why should Fire Affinity again combine with more Earth? Unless Affinity is the key factor in the whole process and it is applied to all other upgrades. That certainly didn't happen with Shade's Neg/Pos/Pos accessory. The second Pos didn't grant a bonus effect (and assumingly didn't mix with the Negative Energy Affinity.)

I agree that the concept didn't work with Shade's example. But, not every third tier results in a bonus effect. I think in the case of opposing forces... neg/pos, earth/air, fire/water this creates a kind of balance at the second level which may prevent it from receiving a bonus at the third. Or, perhaps, it's necessary to add a third type which is of a different nature.

In other words, when dealing with items that have "balanced" effects at the second level:

1)pos/neg: your third affinity has to be an element, and combines with the pos (first affinity) for the third upgrade
2)neg/pos: your third affinity has to be an element, and combines with the neg
3)earth/air: your third affinity has to be a energy (pos/neg) and combines with the earth
4)air/earth: your third affinity has to be energy, and combines with the air
5)fire/water: your third affinity has to be energy, and combines with the fire
6)water/fire: your third affinity has to be energy, and combines with the water

I supect if any one of the above results in a bonus effect at third level, all of them will, while:

1)pos/neg with either energy type for third will result in nothing at third level
2)neg/pos with either energy type for third will result in nothing at third level

Ditto for other balances of earth/air, air/earth, fire/water, water/fire when the third affinity is either of the first two.

Just what I suspect... not proven yet.


Edit: There are four elemental affinities, and I think that as long as you add a different elemental focus at tier three than what you had used at tier one and tier two on a balanced item, you should get a third tier bonus.

earth/air w/ either water or fire
air/earth w/ either water or fire
fire/water w/ either earth or air
water/fire w/ either earth or air

This won't work where energies are concerned because there are only two energies, neg and pos, and both were used for the "existential stalemate" balance bonus.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Ok, I just finished a big update to Altar of Invasion and Altar of Subjugation.
I have gone back and re-marked all of the Confirmed, Suspected, and Unknowns, using the best information I can gather, and cross-referencing with Cambo's post, as well as both of the Google Spreadsheet. If there is anything marked incorrectly PLEASE LET ME KNOW. I am keeping a master-copy of the information off-site (in Excel), and updating the Wiki from my Excel sheet to try to ensure the best accuracy possible.

[Myrdinn]

I agree that the concept didn't work with Shade's example. But, not every third tier results in a bonus effect. I think in the case of opposing forces... neg/pos, earth/air, fire/water this creates a kind of balance at the second level which may prevent it from receiving a bonus at the third. Or, perhaps, it's necessary to add a third type which is of a different nature.

In other words, when dealing with items that have "balanced" effects at the second level:

1)pos/neg: your third affinity has to be an element, and combines with the pos (first affinity) for the third upgrade
2)neg/pos: your third affinity has to be an element, and combines with the neg
3)earth/air: your third affinity has to be a energy (pos/neg) and combines with the earth
4)air/earth: your third affinity has to be energy, and combines with the air
5)fire/water: your third affinity has to be energy, and combines with the fire
6)water/fire: your third affinity has to be energy, and combines with the water

I supect if any one of the above results in a bonus effect at third level, all of them will, while:

1)pos/neg with either energy type for third will result in nothing at third level
2)neg/pos with either energy type for third will result in nothing at third level

ditto for other balances of earth/air, air/earth, fire/water, water/fire when the third affinity is either of the first two.

Just what I suspect... not proven yet.

Not proven, but exactly what i get in mind, and has the most potentiel from here on :)

So I could suggest a air + earth + positive for a balance with lightning :)