WF or dwarf?

[godandmud1]

I really wanna make a WF pally, but I am worried I would be lacking. Can I make a WF pally in a way that is good? Or should I just do Dwarf?"

[FrodoCorleone]

Posted this in your other thread:

WF Paladins are interesting because you take hits to 2 stats you need (WIS and CHA). To be honest though my dwarf has a -2 CHA penalty and does fine with a 20 CHA (base 13) after items/enhancements/tome. As for WIS, you only need enough to cast spells and the best Paladin spells are lv 1 (i.e. WIS 11) unless you want energy resists which are lvl 2 (i.e. WIS 12). Just bump your WIS to 10 and get some + WIS items to make up the difference.

The best parts of being a WF pally would be the +2 CON and CON enhancements. Paladins are notorious for having low Constitutions and therefore HPs. Also great is that you add fear immunity to your list of WF immunities and get get full heals from your Lay on Hands.

As for a Dwarven Paladin, I think a lot people are going to roll one because of HP and AC. Again the -2 CHA hit not that big, especially for offensive-minded pallies. Also the CON bonuses/enhancements are great. You don't get the WF immunities, but you get Dwarven Axe (d10 damage, 20 x3 crit) proficiency for free and the AC enhancements (very nice :D)

Because of the -2 stat at creation having a 32-pt build helps a lot, but Kubah isn't 32-pts. He has a STR 29, CON 16, WIS 14, CHA 20 w/ 200+ HP and 230+ SP.... that's all you pretty much need.

[Beorn_The_Bear]

I was just about to post and ask if anybody had experience with a WF paladin! My impression is that initially it may be on the week side but can only get much stronger and as i read in another forum, all the innate imunities free up items slots for ability score improving items. Also thinking this would be a great tank.

[JosephKell]

a 32 pt WF Paladin would kick butt. People often disapprove of Warforged Paladins because of the said stat penalties, but they don't make that big a splash on your effectiveness. Especially since WF are immune to Energy Drain.

The big question is how are you gonna deal with the stats in general.

Strength: Nobrainer, start it as high as you can without gimping the rest of them.

Dexterity: Anything over a 12 is just gonna be Reflex/Skill boosts since Adamantine Body has a Max Dex to AC of +1 (unless you plan on multiclassing as a Fighter 2 for enhancements, which might not be too bad since you can also pick up Fighter Strength I). The big question for Dexterity is how are you gonna get that 12 minimum? Are you going to (a) start it at 12 or (b) use magic items to get it to 12. +1 Dexterity items are usable from level 1. +2 Dex items from level 5 (or 3 if they are race restricted or 1 if they are bound). +3 is level 7, and +4 is level 9.

Constitution: Like Strength, as high as possible to a starting max of 16.

Intelligence: 8. Take either Repair (cross-classed) or Concentration (I've failed several concentration checks vs Melf's Acid Arrow.. and that is when I really want to get that Resist Acid off!).

Wisdom: A 10 or 12 is fine. 12 for 6 points won't kill your WF Paladin. Honestly, I wish the Follower of the Lord of Blades enhancement added the Repair spells to the Paladin list, I would be all over it then.

Charisma: 14 (10 points) Starting is good. However, a 13 starting saves 2 points which could go to Wisdom and/or Dexterity.

My recommendation is (and the points spent on it):
Str 16 (10)
Dex 10 (2)
Con 16 (6)
Int 8 (0)
Wis 10 (4)
Cha 14 (10)

The big issue though for a WF Paladin is the cut offs.

Paladin 3: major cut off since you got Fear Immunity.
Paladin 11: Resistance spells max out.
Paladin 14: Divine Light III. DC 24 + Cha mod isn't to sneeze at for 14d6 AoE damage vs undead.

Don't forget the rumors of Item Creation. Remember, the caster level required to make a weapon is 3 times the effective enhancement of the weapon.

But who knows how race restrict/bound items will factor in.

[Hvymetal]

Aye, I have a WF Pally/Ftr. Immune to almost everything, very durable vrs. beholders and really anything else. And now since he's a sorta intimidate build I am wondering if Pally and WF hate generating enhancements stack? One's racial and one's class based so they should stack correct?

[DaoMuck]

I have a wf paladin and I love it. I started with the same stats that josephkell listed. He is currently 11 paladin/ 1 fighter. The only downside to him is his ac is low in comparison to my fighter, but he is immune to pretty much everything, 100% fortified, 310 hit points and 207 spell points. stats are currently:
str 24(26 at lvl 13)
dex 14
con 23
int 8
wis 14
cha 22

saves:
fort 23
ref 19
will 17

Hvymetal brings up a very good point, charging beholders is a lot of fun.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Aye, I have a WF Pally/Ftr. Immune to almost everything, very durable vrs. beholders and really anything else. And now since he's a sorta intimidate build I am wondering if Pally and WF hate generating enhancements stack? One's racial and one's class based so they should stack correct?

Racial Enhancements should alwasy stack with Class Enhancements. It is the "same type" that don't (Rogue + Ranger, double-class). Just like you can take WF Toughness and Paladin Toughness (for +100HP's - Dwarves too).


I have a couple of Paladins, and if I even roll another one, he will definately be Warforged. Yeah, the -2 WIS & -2 CHA is scary, but the other posters are right... you only need CURRENT WISDOM for spellcasting (8 base + 4 Item = Level 2 spells), and CHA is easy to boost... +3 Class, +6 Item, +1 Tome... so +10 is easy to get.. or drop to +2 to save on AP's and drop the Tome for +8.... start at 10 or 12, and you get 20 CHA, which is plenty. 20 CHA = +5 on Divine Grace, and nice LoH's.

[PurdueDave]

Dexterity: Anything over a 12 is just gonna be Reflex/Skill boosts since Adamantine Body has a Max Dex to AC of +1 (unless you plan on multiclassing as a Fighter 2 for enhancements, which might not be too bad since you can also pick up Fighter Strength I). The big question for Dexterity is how are you gonna get that 12 minimum? Are you going to (a) start it at 12 or (b) use magic items to get it to 12. +1 Dexterity items are usable from level 1. +2 Dex items from level 5 (or 3 if they are race restricted or 1 if they are bound). +3 is level 7, and +4 is level 9.

I went through the same thought process when making a WF paladin. I went with 10 dex figuring on using a +2 item at low levels then a +2 item with a nice secondary ability until I rolled on a +2 dex tome at some point.

I went with the same stats you did. For cut-offs, pal 3 is also when you get the aura AP increases.

[VonBek]

Both my WF Fighter/Pal and Paladin started with 14 Cha, and the 13 Dex to get Dodge. It made sense back then. But, now? /shrug. I'd probably go with more Con to see how it differs. However, with a +3 dex item, and +4 reflex item, I can do some ranged work, and my reflex saves don't hurt too much.

I went with a min Wis of 11. and put it to 12 at level 4. (I hate losing all my SP from switching gear while tired).

After, I put Str as high as I could get it. The Splash class took Ftr Str 1, and hits a little harder.

Feats were Adamant, Dodge, (and Mental Toughness on the pure class). The "spash version went with Lord of Blades enhancement. The "pure" Paly went Sovereign Host for Longsword perks.

Both were fun. The pure paly was a bit harder to play, as it seemed to really lag in the kill-count (I know - I know). It's been awhile and I need to roll them out and dust them off.

EDIT: I discovered I built one more well back before the merger. Suddenly, I have an extra toon in my list. :rolleyes: He's the same basic formula, but I think I'll focus him as pure/LoB focused. See what happens.

[Taerdra]

I just started a WF pally, and am greatly enjoying it. I would say that WF are very competitive with Dwarves, particularly offensively. The PA enhancements are a huge boon, and while they don't impact you as much as a Barb you can get a huge amount of damage on WF via this route especially 2H. Spec for Greatsword, and you eliminate half of the Dwarf axe advantage. If you build as you would a Barb in terms of feats and WF DR enh, you will be in good shape.

Defensively, I think Dwarves are still better. More HP, saving throws that can negate the WF immunities, and Armor enhancements, make them better Pally based tanks.

My 2 coppers.

[Beorn_The_Bear]

...how would you distribute your scores for a 28 pts build (knowing this will be a pure pally build meant to be an extremely resistant tank))

[PurdueDave]

...how would you distribute your scores for a 28 pts build (knowing this will be a pure pally build meant to be an extremely resistant tank))

I'd go STR 16, DEX 8, CON 16, INT 8, WIS 12, CHA 12...might go WIS 10/DEX 10 as well.

[VonBek]

...how would you distribute your scores for a 28 pts build (knowing this will be a pure pally build meant to be an extremely resistant tank))


I'd go STR 16, DEX 8, CON 16, INT 8, WIS 12, CHA 12...might go WIS 10/DEX 10 as well.

I might shift just a bit to...

STR 16 | DEX 8 | CON 15 | INT 8 | WIS 11 | CHA 13 |
...on the premise that if you are group/gear/loot poor, Cha stat gear can be a bit sparse. If you've got/can get the gear to maintain Wis & Dex, shifting your starting stats to Cha seems viable. The Paly Cha enhancement will get this to 14 rather soon.

You'll need to fine tune the stats in Ron's Generator, or the game generator screen to dial it in to your needs.

[Tenkari_Rozahas]

Even at 28 Point builds, WF paladins can kick ass with the right equips. I've run a couple of them, and even some Drow pallies, personally, with 28 points they are good, but they really dont shine, so you wont get #1 kills, but you will have survivability.

With mine, I even took a level of Wiz for the extend metamagic feat and repair wands, thus keeping my SP/Wands for fleshie healing when i didnt have divine favor up. personally, WF paladins are something to fear, especially if you get some good +cha items/tomes, saves would be up there for what they arent immune to.

though when i do get 32 point builds finnally, im going to remake my WF Pally and totally goto town.


With WF pallies, you have to sacrifice some AC at start, via Dex if you want to have a high str. start with a 11 Wis,find a +1 or +3 item. or a +1 tme and +2 item, and you'd ebable to cast the max level pally spells when you get them, and some extra SP to start at level 4.


My pally started at 14 Str, 9 Dex, 12 Con, 8 Int, 11 or 12 Wis, and I maxxed Cha. Again, I only used a 28 point build.

[mikey49er]

i would like to know the best way to make a warforge pal i made one from a build guide forum and he's preety cool but would like to know the best way to make a powerful warforge pal

[Yaga_Nub]

I don't think there is a best way to make one.

I have a 32 Pt WF 12 Pally/2 Fighter and I think he's one of the most fun builds that I have. He does have low AC but with 3 LOH that heal him 50%, I can get out of the fight and get healed quickly then get back in. He wears a +4 Fearsome docent or a +4 Acid docent and uses a +2 Paralyzing greatsword. One on one he's a load for most critters.

[llevenbaxx]

I don't think there is a best way to make one.

I have a 32 Pt WF 12 Pally/2 Fighter and I think he's one of the most fun builds that I have. He does have low AC but with 3 LOH that heal him 50%, I can get out of the fight and get healed quickly then get back in. He wears a +4 Fearsome docent or a +4 Acid docent and uses a +2 Paralyzing greatsword. One on one he's a load for most critters.

Thats sounds like what Im going for too(11pal/2ftr atm), right down to the +4 Fearsome docent:). Lots of fun to play and noones burden. The only downside of the build ive found is most of his equipment slots are taken for stat items, leaving very little room for other nice things. Guess the same is true for many palys tho.

Have a standing 26str(28 after favor), 14dex, 24con, 8int, 18wiz & 22 char(had lots of +1 tomes & RR WF +6 items, kinda why I made him). I do still fail saves sometimes, I have a little over 300 hps and use my weapons as a crude form of CC to avoid getting creamed with my low AC(works alot of the time anyway;)). Cursespewing and para greatswords with cleave and great cleave can be quite affective. Took bladesworn transformation which does kick in some extra offense but the overall usefulness of it im kinda on the fence about but not much else worth picking up.

[Twerpp]

WF are great, bladesworn transformation looks neat but overall not more useful than a madstone rage or a barb rage and the cooldown on it makes it 1 per quest..

Dwarves actually have great paladin synergy despite the hit to cha. tons of extra con and hit points at the cost of 1 toughness feat, access to armor mastery puts your ac at or above a fighter, and dwarven axe enhancements make up for lack of fighters str enhancements or your lower str stat. Everyone loves 300-400 hp of crunchy armored meat shield with great saves, too bad intimidate isn't a class skill he would be the perfect bodyguard.

[binnsr]

Racial Enhancements should alwasy stack with Class Enhancements. It is the "same type" that don't (Rogue + Ranger, double-class). Just like you can take WF Toughness and Paladin Toughness (for +100HP's - Dwarves too).

Warforged don't have Toughness as an enhancement..

[llevenbaxx]

Warforged don't have Toughness as an enhancement..

You'd think they would though, being made for war and all. Would likily make them a little overpowered though, like dwarves.:)

[binnsr]

You'd think they would though, being made for war and all. Would likily make them a little overpowered though, like dwarves.:)
I've always thought that too ..

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Snippets from my Paladin Build Guide:



A quick rundown of the Pros for each Race:

Human: +1 Feat, +1 Skill Point/Level, +1 to 2 Stats, Human Versatility (Mod 5)
Dwarf: Axe/Armor/Tactics/Toughness Enhancements, Racial Saves, Con Bonuses
Warforged: Con Bonuses, Racial Immunities, Follow of Lord of Blades
Elf: Longsword Enhancements, Follower of Soverign Host
Drow: Shortsword Enhancements, Follower of Vulkoorim, Starting 10 CHA, Drow SR
Halfling: +1 To-Hit, +Dex Bonuses, +1 AC Size Bonus

And a quick rundown of the Cons for each Race:

Human: +1 to 2 Stats instead of +2 to 1 stat
Dwarf: Lower CHA
Warforged: Body Feat is costly, lower CHA & WIS
Elf: Lower CON
Drow: Lower CON
Halfling: Lower STR usually means Dex-based or TWF, Intimidate Penalty

But overall, all the races are quite good for Paladins.


For a quick “generalization” of the Racial differences for Paladins (and these are generalizations for the Races, not hard-rules)

--------------------
The Human Paladin
--------------------

Often uses Bonus Feat for Exotic Weapon: Kopesh, else goes with Longswords
Usually Sword-and-Board
Human Adaptability allows better balance of starting stats vs. Tomes/Items/Class Enhancements
Usually has the highest CHA of all Paladins

--------------------
The Dwarven Paladin
--------------------

Usually sticks to Dwarven Axes, but will use other axes, and occasionally 2-handeds
Often has a higher Dex, due to Racial Armor Mastery
Usually has the most hitpoints of all Paladins

--------------------
The Warforged Paladin
--------------------

Usually goes with Greatswords for the Lord of Blades Enhancements
Lowest CHA and WIS of most Paladins, but Immunities make up for it

--------------------
The Elven Paladin
--------------------

Elven Paladins are almost exclusively Longsword users, as the Racial Bonus and Soverign Host make them deal a lot of damage.
Usually tied with Drow for the lowest Hitpoints of all Paladins, but higher Dex, and occasionally 2-Weapon Fighters


--------------------
The Drow Paladin
--------------------

Elven Paladins are almost usually Shortsword users, as the Racial Bonus and Soverign Host make them deal a lot of damage.
Usually tied with Elves for the lowest Hitpoints of all Paladins, but higher Dex, and occasionally 2-Weapon Fighters
Drows also have start with 10 in CHA, INT, and DEX... making a higher Charisma cost less.
Drow SR can help augment a Paladin's Saves for survivability


--------------------
The Halfling Paladin
--------------------

Halfing Paladins tend to be Finesse Fighters, and very often 2-Weapon due to Racial Dex, and low starting STR
Usually have some of the best saves of all Paladins



and



So What Race Should I Choose?

A lot depends on your playstyle, and what items you may have banked.
The Weapons will often choose the Race, as each Race has it’s preferred weapons due to Racial options or the Faith Enhancements. Dwarves, Humans, and Warforged are probably the 3 “best” choices, while Elves/Drow are a very close second. Halflings are a bit less popular, and tend to go towards 2-Weapon, which leaves very little feat room for a Paladin.

Keep in mind the Weapons that lend themselves one way or another:
Kopesh – Human
Axes – Dwarf
Greatsword – Warforged
Longsword – Elf
Shortsword – Drow


Also, remember the Racial differences:
Human: +Feat, +1 Skill, +1 Stat to 2 different Stats
Dwarf: +Con, -Cha
Warforged: +Con, -Cha, -Wis, Immunities
Elf: +Dex, -Con
Drow: +Dex, -Con, SR
Halfling: +Dex, -Str


One other way to look at Race Recommendations Build Type:
Pure Paladin: Any Race
"IntimiTank" Paladin: Human or Dwarf
Evasion Paladin: Human, Elf, Drow, Dwarf
DPS Paladin (Pure, IntimiTank, or Other): Dwarf, Warforged, Human
Two-Weapon Paladin: Halfling, Elf, Drow


But, in all seriousness, don't be afraid of the -2 Cha for Dwarves or the -2 Cha/-2 Wis for WF... they are easily overcome. Also, it is important to remember that neither Cha or Wis really need to be all that high for a good Paladin build. Most Human Paladins start around 8-10 Wis... and many only at 12-14 Cha. I would consider a "Good" Paladin build to end up around 16 Wis and 20 Cha... and with the +3 Cha from Paladin, +1 Tomes, and +6 Stat items, that is VERY easy to obtain.

Consider also that the Warforged immunities help with a lower-than-normal Will Save, as they provide extra protection. Alternately, you can focus on Cha, and only get your Wis up to what you need to cast the Level of spell you want (10+Spell Level), and let the Divine Grace help make up for your lower Will Saves.

[Twerpp]

You what would be fun about either of those races? Taking stunning blow, maxing out racial tactics enhancements they both have and hotkey yourself a 1,2 combination of stunning blow follered up with a high holey smitey crit from hell-er from heaven I mean. This would go great with either race but even more so with dwarvens X3 crits and racial enhancements. The amount of smites you get is weak but everyone loves that record setting smitey crit feeling you could get that feeling on every smite you throw!