2 rouge/10 barb?

[godandmud1]

I am wanting to make a 14 int dwarf rogue/barbarian that can do good 2h dmg and be able to disarm traps/sneak. I would go first level rogue, then 2-4 as barb, then 5 as rogue then the rest as barbarian.

Has anyone tried this build yet?

[Blazer]

I'm sure someone has tried, 'cause it seems someone, somewhere has tried virtually every combination. :)

That said, I'm not sure how much success you will have as a rogue with this build. You may be able to disarm stuff on normal, but I'm not sure you'd be able to find everything. Many pure rogues are making noise about having more difficulty finding the traps. I just don't see how you would have enough skill points to keep up with spot, search, and disable, let alone the other skills you want like hide/move silently. Oh yeah, since you want to disable, you probably want to open locks, too, right? Any UMD?

My feeling is that if you tried this build, you'd either end up falling woefully short of doing the rogue things and be frustrated by that; or you would sacrifice the points/feats needed as a barbarian to compensate as a rogue, still fall a bit short in the rogue department, and now also be less effective as a barbarian.

Maybe someone out there has a 10 barb/2 rogue that can search and disable everything in the game on elite. Hopefully he'll read this and post his build to prove me wrong. I just don't see these two classes meshing well; at least not if you want to do rogue things. Now a barb who took 2 levels of rogue for evasion, who knows? :D

[GlassJaw]

In most cirumstances, unless you take a lot of levels in a class with some of the same rogue skills or a lot of skill ranks (like ranger, wiz with high Int, etc), you are going to need at least 3-5ish rogue levels to be able to find and disable traps with any regularity.

[sigtrent]

I think you can pull that off, but you will need to make some unusual choices for your stats and learn to be happy not being as strong as a typeical barbarian is.

You need Int, Wisdom, Dex, Str, and Con all to be pretty decent (14+), which means none of them are going to be especialy great.

[Blazer]

I don't know that he'll be able to keep up with the ranks needed to do the rogue stuff while he takes barbarian levels. Just not enough skill points to spread around to all those cross-class skills. If he's not looking to be "the" rogue for high end, elite dungeons, maybe, but I just don't know if the skill points are there, honestly.

[SpiRosM]

unles u want to try an evasion barb, dont think the disabling part and searches will work with the new enchanc bro :(

[tihocan]

Maybe someone out there has a 10 barb/2 rogue that can search and disable everything in the game on elite.
That's me :D

To be honest I haven't checked yet whether I can still spot traps in elite dungeons. But that's what the Barbarian's HPs are for :p Also, I can only claim to disable everything I have tried, but I haven't tried everything in the game. I've done L12 quests on elite though.
Also, I had to give up on UMD in order to pick all those rogues skills and initimidate. I spent my 1750 favor tome on Int at L10 to get more skill points. In the old enhancement system I was a bit weak too, due to not having room for the best barbarian enhancements... but the 3.3 system makes it much better, as I can afford both the necessary rogue enhancements and most of the good rage barbarian enhancements (also, L14 will really be a huge boost with greater rage and critical rage).

My L20 build is planned barb 17 / rogue 3 (the last level of rogue at L20 will let me catch up on all rogue skills and get an extra 1d6 sneak attack).

[sigtrent]

Well here are the traditional rogue skills in more or less priority order for most multi-classers.... (except some folks really want UMD but they are often not interested in trapping so much)

Open Lock, Search, Disable Devise, Spot, UMD

That's 5 skills, none of which are barbarian skills. To keep them maxed out requires 10 skill points per level which with 4 from barbarain means 20 Int + human. Not going to happen...

You can Axe UMD, that gets you to 16 Int + Human which is doable or 18 int drow which is also doable.

If you drop spot as well and rely on knowing the traps then you can dip down to 14 int which is probably more what you would aim for. With a drow you could go 16 int without a lot of sacrifice and use the elf bonus / rogue level extra skills to make spot respectible if not great. But that requires some wisdom too...

So here is a drow stat layout...
Str 14 (6)
Dex 16 (6)
Con 12 (6)
Int 16 (6)
Wis 12 (4)
Cha 10

You could nudge some of those around a bit, try to get 16 str and lower dex and int, but this is a build set to enable decent trapping while taking 10 barbarian levels. As a barbarian you are clearly sub par, but you fight a heck of a lot better than a typical rogue would and arn't dependent on sneak attack. You would put level points into STR of course and end up in the 22-24 range depending on gear, and pre-rage. I personaly know a 14 str starting barbarian that many in my guild are in awe of in quests so it's not quite as gimp as it sounds providing you can compensate with smart play.

You can use the elf enhancements to make up for limited rogue enhancements and togeter you get a pretty cheap enhancement cost for your skill boosts. Take all the cheap stuff you can get there. You will probably want gear to boost every stat but possibly charisma if you can get it. Gear swaping may well just be a fact of life for this kind of character.

[sigtrent]

I worked it up witht he build planner....


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.20
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Bob
Level 12 Chaotic Good Drow Male
(10 Barbarian \ 2 Rogue)
Hit Points: 176
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 11\11\16\21
Fortitude: 9
Reflex: 10
Will: 4

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 12)
Strength 14 17
Dexterity 16 18
Constitution 12 14
Intelligence 16 16
Wisdom 12 12
Charisma 10 10

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 12)
Balance 7 13
Bluff 0 0
Concentration 1 2
Diplomacy 0 0
Disable Device 7 21
Haggle 4 4
Heal 1 1
Hide 7 8
Intimidate 0 0
Jump 6 7
Listen 1 3
Move Silently 7 8
Open Lock 7 22
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 3 3
Search 7 23
Spot 5 18
Swim 2 3
Tumble 7 8
Use Magic Device 4 4

Notable Equipment

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Nimble Fingers
Enhancement: Elven Perception I
Enhancement: Elven Keen Eyes I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I

Level 2 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Rogue Skills Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Search I
Enhancement: Rogue Spot I

Level 3 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution I

Level 4 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Reduction Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Hardy Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage I
Enhancement: Elven Perception II

Level 5 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Elven Keen Eyes II

Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Reduction Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I

Level 7 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage II

Level 8 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution II

Level 9 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Barbarian Critical Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage II

Level 10 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage III
Enhancement: Barbarian Hardy Rage II

Level 11 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage III

Level 12 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage III



Remember this is without items and such so add 12+ to all the skills and 4+ or more to many of the stats and the usual claptrap of likely buffs and such.'

So disable for instance is 21 + 2 more for int boost +2 skill boost +10 item +7 tools +2-4 heroism = 44-46 Plenty for nearly all traps.

OL is about the same

Search comes in around 39

Spot still rather sucks at about 32-34 but its not abbysmal and you will spot a fair portion of traps and doors.

Combat wise you are suffering compared to a pure barbarian.

Attack is around 26, 4 more when raged? Thats with fairly minimal buffs.

On the flip side your Ac is has great potential for a barbarian due to all the dex. You can run mithral breast plate, or kunderak delving suit and then some. And you are a better thrower than most barbarians also due to the dex. I'd pick up rogue at 13 or 14 to shore up the spot score again.

[Blazer]

Sigtrent and Tihocan, thanks - nice work all around.

The OP did state he wanted to be able to disarm traps and sneak (thus needing Hide and Move Silently), however. Based on the numbers that Sigtrent posted though, I don't see any way he could possible get reasonable numbers in those skills as well.

So based on Sigtrent's numbers and Tihocan's experience with this actual build, I suppose it is possible, but sacrifices need to be made in order to fit as much in as possible. Still impressive since I didn't think it very possible, let alone playable. The flexibility of character generation still impresses me everyday. :D

[tihocan]

Hehe Sigtrent your build is pretty close to mine... except for feats because I took a completely different route, and I started with 16 str (wis being a dump stat, it does hurt my spot skill now but I don't really regret it, most of the time I'm not raged and the +2 str seems more important to me).
It's a very fun build to play, and you can feel a bit unique since there aren't so many barb/rogue around :)

[Goblin]

8/3/1
Barb/rogue/fighter (Human)

I did not go all out rogue skills, I went for full UMD. But I can still with items do the rogue job on all normal quests, some hard ones and few eliete. But I did not specificaly make this toon to be a great rogue I really wanted the evasion and 2d6 back stab. I have been the only "Rogue" for Von 5 and such on normal and it has been fine, but I would not advertise my Rogue skills past that point. now damage is quite another story :D

At work so from memory ! "if you want 100% I need to edit from home"


With Items
Str 28 statred 16
dex 16 statred 10
con 20 statred 16
int 11 statred 11
Wis 11 statred 10
Car 10 statred 10

Feets

May not be in order...

2 Handed fighting
Powerattack
Cleve
Improved Crit Slash
Greater cleve
Improved 2 Handed fighting
Greater 2 Handed fighting



I suprise groups with my rogue skills, my ability to use heeling wands and masive damage out put.

Having a blast with this build !

[spifflove]

Human 18 str, 14 dex, 13 con, 14 intel.

Take human action boost.

You will have no problem finding and disabling traps even on elite content. Two levels of rogue will give you decent evasion....if you remember to hit uncanny dodge. It will raise your umd to usable levels too. Spot, no dice there.



So, how do you fit two rouges, in a bar crowded with 10 barbarians?

[moorewr]

Human Versatility + Maxed UMD is the hidden bonus here. With a charisma boosting item you can raise the dead more than half the time and use cure wands all the time.. Pretty good deal.

I'm working on a 12B/2R myself (currently 4B/1R); went high dex for two-weapon fighting. I am definitely a weakling for a barbarian; I can't sneak, and I can't spot; but my UMD is rising and I can disable traps and open locks.


Human 18 str, 14 dex, 13 con, 14 intel.

Take human action boost.

You will have no problem finding and disabling traps even on elite content. Two levels of rogue will give you decent evasion....if you remember to hit uncanny dodge. It will raise your umd to usable levels too. Spot, no dice there.



So, how do you fit two rouges, in a bar crowded with 10 barbarians?

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Keep in mind you cannot Search/Open/Disable when Raging.

Now, Mod 5 will add the "end rage" ability... but then you have to balance ending your rage each time you have to Open/Disable/Search something... plus you will be doing a *LOT* of item swapping from "Barb gear" to "Rogue Gear".

If you poke around, Grenfell had a BarbariRogue build that looked pretty good... might have been wiped in the Forums disaster, but you might be able to find a cached copy of it somewhere.

It can be done, but it's difficult. Keep in mind you also loose out on Power Critical 2 with just 1 level of Rogue, and 3 or more means you loose Power Critical 1. Power Critical = +1 Crit threat range of any weapon when raging.



If you are gonna try for it, my suggestions are:

1) Ignore UMD, you don't have the skill points.
2) Ignore Spot, we all know where the traps are.
3) Max OL, DD, Search - And nothing else, except with extra Rogue Level Skill points, then Balance/Jump/Tumble
4) Stay STR based, if at all possible. You don't need that big of a Dex bonus for your skills. Dex-based Barbarians are kinda counter-intuitive, cuz Rage increases STR and CON, not Dex.
5) Go Human for the Feat and the +1 Skill Point/Level, cuz you want the minimum INT you can possibly get away with.

Stats:
STR: 16-17
DEX: 8-12
CON: 16+
INT: 12-14
WIS: 8-10
CHA: 8