Dynamic Duo - Looking for suggestions

[FluffyDucky]

I would like to create a pair of toons that my son and I can play together without having to find a group and still have a reasonable chance of finishing most, if not all, quests. We are both new to DDO and I was hoping some veterans would have some advice on what will and will not work.

[Vinos]

a cleric and a rouge/pally will get the job done.

[Ballex]

A buddy and I started out duo'ing in DDO as soon as SSO launched. I chose what I had always played in pnp D&D, a Halfling Rogue. He chose his typical Human Fighter. upon level 4, we began hitting a brick wall. We couldn't easily get through the adventures without breaking the bank buying Healing Potions. We both re-rolled to add some depth to our party.

We decided, since we were duo'ing, we were missing two important party abilities: Healing Spells and Magic Offensive spells.

We decided, as a party, how best to accomplish this. He chose a Fighter/Cleric to get both Healing spells, buffs, and undead magic. I chose a Rogue/Ranger/Wizard. (in this progression to max out your skill points: Ro, Wi, Ra, Wi, Ra, Wi, Ro, Wi, Ro, ...) to get all the thieving abilities, some ranged fighting abilities, and offensive spells. It's seemed to work good so far. Now were both 6th level, and usually try one level less adventures on Normal, two less for Hard, and three less for Elite.

So far, so good.

Ballex

Zanros Silentread - Rogue 1 / Ranger 2 / Wizard 3 - Thrashak

[arcane_nite]

UMD sorc and a paladin.

*edit - 10 paladin 2 rogue
- 12 sorc

[Protagoras]

I might go with a Bard and a Rogue/Pally. Cleric is a good idea too of course, but the bard can get you healing and some more arcane stuff and be UMD proficient to get wands for the other stuff. The Pally/Rogue will get you Fighting, Aura's and trapsmithing.

Duoing completly is very hard, and you will likely want to party occasionally but with the Cleric or Bard with Pally/Rogue you should be able to find SOMETHING to do duo anytime you and your son want. Don't expect your Pally/Rogue to do elite trapsmithing though.

[SUPERCREWJOHN]

good morning. I think that is awesome that you are getting your son involved in one of the best games ever. I have been a D&D er since 75.

There are a couple of things that you should consider. One of you should be a strong cleric for the healing capabilities, and one should be a strong melee type. I would suggest one of you build as a battle cleric ( paladin/cleric) with the emphasis on cleric. I would start this toon as a cleric first. Focus the skill build on Str,Char, and Wisdom.

The other should either be a high IQ,Hi Str, like a fighter/rogue or Fighter/wizard. I think initially a caster( wiz or sorc) have survivability issues.

Another choice maybe a pure melee fighter/rogue and a caster/healbot cleric/sorcerer

[Strakeln]

UMD sorc and a paladin.

*edit - 10 paladin 2 rogue
- 12 sorcWe have a winner here, folks. If you guys are worth your salt, this duo can handle about 75%+ of the game (heck, high level UMD sorcs can solo about 75%+).

Basically, the sorc can cover all buffs, wand whip and rez the pally, crowd control, and nuke when needed. The pally can kill things, help with resist buffs, and has a panic button that can be used on himself or the sorc. Splash in two rogue levels to the pally and his survivability goes way up, making the duo much more effective. With some planning, the pally can even be a trap monkey.

Edit: if you make the pally a WF, the sorc is able to do some SERIOUS healing, and the pally is immune to almost everything. Without having a single repair spell mem'd, my sorc can keep a toaster vertical against the dragon with no one else healing or wand whipping (alternate reconstruct scrolls and wands, have your wand mastery maxed).

[FluffyDucky]

Thanks for all the comments, a few questions.

I see a Rogue/Paladin recommended a few times and was wondering how you would build one. Looking at the descriptions I see the following.

Rogue Recommended Attributes: Dexterity, Intelligence, Charisma
Paladin Recommended Attributes: Charisma, Strength, Wisdom, Constitution

You don't get enough points to be high in every stat, which is what it appears a Rogue/Paladin would need. The combined abilities look impressive but would they really work with your stats spread out so thin? What would you focus on and what would you skimp on to make this work? Basically, what are you aiming to end up with, a Rogue that can use heal wands/extra weapons, a Paladin that can disarm traps. Strakeln mentions "Splash in two rogue levels to the pally and his survivability goes way up". Not to be stupid but how does this work.

Also UMD sorc. I assume UMD is the "Use magical Device" skill. What magical device would the sorc need this for? (I'll take a guess and say healing wands.)

[Viglin]

Thanks for all the comments, a few questions.

I see a Rogue/Paladin recommended a few times and was wondering how you would build one. Looking at the descriptions I see the following.

Rogue Recommended Attributes: Dexterity, Intelligence, Charisma
Paladin Recommended Attributes: Charisma, Strength, Wisdom, Constitution

You don't get enough points to be high in every stat, which is what it appears a Rogue/Paladin would need. The combined abilities look impressive but would they really work with your stats spread out so thin? What would you focus on and what would you skimp on to make this work? Basically, what are you aiming to end up with, a Rogue that can use heal wands/extra weapons, a Paladin that can disarm traps. Strakeln mentions "Splash in two rogue levels to the pally and his survivability goes way up". Not to be stupid but how does this work.

Also UMD sorc. I assume UMD is the "Use magical Device" skill. What magical device would the sorc need this for? (I'll take a guess and say healing wands.)

My secondaty character is a Paladin/Rogue/Sorceror[in Light armor], and my stats at start were hmm;
St-12
Co-10
Int-13[+1 item is very easy to get]
Dex-13[see above]
Wis-10
Cha-14

The Rogue 2 everyone mentions is to get Evasion...which at this time works in all armor[but lm a roleplayer so...and l wouldnt be suprised if one day it changes to pnp, as the game is trying to]

As for skills, just keep a good Spot,Search,OL,DT, and UMD[thou my guy had no use for it...being l cover all the realms of magic already]

And yes UMD=Use Magic Device

Good luck to you both;)

[arcane_nite]

Thanks for all the comments, a few questions.

I see a Rogue/Paladin recommended a few times and was wondering how you would build one. Looking at the descriptions I see the following.

Rogue Recommended Attributes: Dexterity, Intelligence, Charisma
Paladin Recommended Attributes: Charisma, Strength, Wisdom, Constitution

You don't get enough points to be high in every stat, which is what it appears a Rogue/Paladin would need. The combined abilities look impressive but would they really work with your stats spread out so thin? What would you focus on and what would you skimp on to make this work? Basically, what are you aiming to end up with, a Rogue that can use heal wands/extra weapons, a Paladin that can disarm traps. Strakeln mentions "Splash in two rogue levels to the pally and his survivability goes way up". Not to be stupid but how does this work.

Also UMD sorc. I assume UMD is the "Use magical Device" skill. What magical device would the sorc need this for? (I'll take a guess and say healing wands.)


Good place to start for any pally build questions:

http://www.ddo.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=26

more specific:

http://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84756

Umd - wd be for rez scrolls, and heal/effect wands.

[~Treemarker]

Without having a single repair spell mem'd, my sorc can keep a toaster vertical

Thank for making me laugh out loud. Seriously. I even had to shut the door to my office cause people were coming by to see what I was laughing at.

[Dariun]

You can also do a Warforged duo:

Warforged Wiz/Rogue (only really need to take first lvl rogue)
Warforged Warrior (your choice really, barbarian, fighter, or multiclass)

I did a lot of duoing with a human cleric and dwarf battle cleric combo. That worked well until the lvl 6 or 7 quests. Then some of those could be done, some were really too much trouble.

[FluffyDucky]

I was just thinking of an all WF duo based on the Pally/Rogue + Sorc combo when I saw Dariun's post.

WF sorc may not make sense in most cases but in an all WF party this would mean no healing needed so the points normally going to UMD could be spent on something else. This would also give the sorc the WF immunity and armor bonuses making him better able to survive (which may be critical with only 2 in the party). The 5% spell failure would be an annoyance but I thought there were ways to eliminate it if it becomes to worrisome.

[Dariun]

One problem with paladin and sorcerer for Warforged is they have a Charisma and a Wisdom penalty. You can do them, but they are more of a "let me see how I can make this work" character than a naturally strong build.

The Wiz/Rogue combo works as WF have no int/dex penalties and the high con and immunities helps survivability.

WF also make great barbarians and fighters.

[Rason]

I was just thinking of an all WF duo based on the Pally/Rogue + Sorc combo when I saw Dariun's post.

WF sorc may not make sense in most cases but in an all WF party this would mean no healing needed so the points normally going to UMD could be spent on something else. This would also give the sorc the WF immunity and armor bonuses making him better able to survive (which may be critical with only 2 in the party). The 5% spell failure would be an annoyance but I thought there were ways to eliminate it if it becomes to worrisome.

I can speak from experience that I have a Warforged Duo and it works well together. I have a level 7 Warforged Wizard with the standard composite armor (and I took the enhancement 'Inscribed Armor' which removes the spell failure) and that WF teams up with Annihilator, a level 7 Warforged Barbarian.

I'm primarily crowd control yet I do specialise in lightning/acid/repairing. This means I can be the WF healer and also hamper the enemy. So far this duo has gone the distance and works very well :)

The other duos my fiance and I have are:


Dwarf Paladin 5/Fighter 1 & Human Rogue 5/Fighter 1
Drow Cleric 4 & Drow Sorcerer 4
Drow Fighter 5 & Human Cleric 5/Paladin 1
Drow Bard 5 & Drow Paladin 5


The Drow characters are apart of an RP family we've create hence why there is a few there.

So far the best duo is the warforged wizard and barbarian duo and the Dwarf/Human combo with a paladin tank, minor healer with wands and high damage reduction to block doors, and the rogue being used to detrap traps, unlock doors and use a heavy repeating crossbow.. they are not too bad.

The Fighter & Cleric/Paladin combo aren't bad either but it can get tricky here and there. The bard and paladin are definitely interesting since the bard can heal, use a heap of wands and sing the monsters to sleep 99.99% of the time.

As for the Cleric and Sorcerer, we haven't played them much since they are regular members of a RP group up once a week but the cleric is well rounded to have a decent strength and enough wisdom to be decent while being a healer/offensive for the time being.

I hope this helps :) Sorry if anything is obscure.. its 5:27am.

[Viza]

I would like to create a pair of toons that my son and I can play together without having to find a group and still have a reasonable chance of finishing most, if not all, quests. We are both new to DDO and I was hoping some veterans would have some advice on what will and will not work.

Nice. My son plays with me as well, though he's not been playing long enough to grasp the breadth of what the game can offer. He's happy swinging his maul of pure good lol. We can generally duo anything that's more than 2 levels below us with minimal pain. It really cuts into our xp, but that's not why we are doing what we are doing... we are in it for the fun of playing a game together.

If that's all you are after you'll do fine 8)... If you are on Sarlona email Lleandrea and let me know when you play. Maybe we can do some father/son parties and tackle some tougher content.

We do a Bard and Fighter/Rogue combination. The bard can do crowd control, buff and heal, the fighter/rogue supplies the punch and trap finding/disabling.

It works out great 8P

-Viz

[Rite]

I run with my brother and have duo'd the majority of quests.

I'm a batman with a umd/ finess saves machine, 6 Fighter/ 3 pall/ 3 rogue... I dont get hit with much, can dish out the dps and can lay down any spell needed with a little investment.

He's a 6 fighter/ 2 ranger/ 4 rogue hybrid that can disable anything, high ranged dps and if needed can take a decent beating

Its a really fun duo as its dynamic, no weak link for taking a hit/ both have evasion/ both can wand heal +2 lay on hands for 70 a piece and the best part is, who ever the mob is looking at is going to take an extra 2d6 a swing from the other with sneak attack. We are finding keeping your dps up is key, having 1 healer type and a pally is a hard grind when fighting mobs the regen or have high hp. You need to be able to turn on the damage on ocassion

I think the biggest thing you need to keep in mind with duoing stuff as you will be required to be a jack of all trades. Also self buffing (barkskin potions and heroism are the best).

[stockwizard5]

1 Rogue/X Wizard and 1 Bard/X Pally - excellent duo - not gimped for elite raids.

[roscopico]

I think you will do better just by ignoring the rogue. Assuming normal, the damage you save from trapbusting wont be worth what you pay for it in terms of lowered spellcasting, etc. Although you cant run traps on elite, you prolly wont be able to find them without a serious commitment.

On normal, you can run thru almost all of the traps with a simple resist or protection. for the physical traps- again between good con, reflex saves, false life, aid etc you can just run thru.

I would go WF paladin 1/cler x rolled with a 16 con, str, wis.

The other guy- drow wizard, pure, with a heavy repeater. dex 16 int 18 con 13. max umd. wiz focuses on buffs, webs/solid fogs and ranged support.

Each can heal each other which is huge for duos.

both should take extend spell at or before 3rd.

Stock: why bard/pally and not cler/pally? your bard spells would fail, no?

[Strakeln]

Stock: why bard/pally and not cler/pally? your bard spells would fail, no?UMD. With a Pally's high Cha stat, this build's UMD would be able to hit mid-30's buffed. The ability to dimension door, collect stone(s), rez, and get a fresh start on a battle is priceless. My sorc has saved many a wipe with that.

[Krazed]

Evasion Pally and UMD Sorc builds are not exactly ideal for new players. They require a knowledge of gameplay and spells that isn't easy to come by without actually playing the game for a while.

I would suggest, instead, maybe a 10 bard/2 rogue build for traps and general support with a paladin for access to self-healing and general durability.

[Protagoras]

Evasion Pally and UMD Sorc builds are not exactly ideal for new players. They require a knowledge of gameplay and spells that isn't easy to come by without actually playing the game for a while.

I would suggest, instead, maybe a 10 bard/2 rogue build for traps and general support with a paladin for access to self-healing and general durability.


One thing that might be good is the 10bard/2Rogue and 10Pally/2Rogue. Gives the pally evasion and with good Cha and Good Wisdom the Pally can get a decent headstart on UMD.. AND have the Pally concentrate on high Spot (dovetails with Wisdom).. the Bard does search DD and OL. And you can have quite a nice combo I think.

[stockwizard5]

Stock: why bard/pally and not cler/pally? your bard spells would fail, no?

Yup :)

a) I think you need max UMD on both
b) Get to enjoy almost all the DDO game mechanics (fun)

[Symar-FangofLloth]

Whoa, bard/pally? You found a way to manipulate the alignment bug? Please tell! I wanna make one!
Seriously though (even though I do want a bard/pally) it doesn't work because of alignment restrictions. Did you mean rogue?

[SUPERCREWJOHN]

Now that you mentioned Rogue.It seems like they would be in the same place as the bard to a degree. Doesnt it seem a little odd that it would be possible to have a Lawful Good thief. I guess it is like Robin Hood, but even Robin Hood, i would have thought was either Chaotic Good or Neutral Good or perhaps Chaotic Neutral.. :D

[stockwizard5]

Ya - forgot the bard/pally build was a glitch - one cliff jump for me :o

Note: Cliff Jumps are the accepted puinishment for yutzing - remove feather fall and hop off cliff in House K next to Taming the Flames :D

As a group we have a problem here - these are being built for new players so no uber equipment - no 32 point builds and even worse no Drow = no stats and no SR - so I guess I would go with:

Human Rogue 1 / Wizard X (Rogue at Level 1)
Role: Thief, Buffing, Crowd Control, Healing (wands), Arcane (wands and scrolls), Raise Dead (scrolls)
Stats: INT 18 (+3 Levels, +4 enhancements), CON14, CHR 14
Skills: Use Magic Device, Seach, Disable, Concentration, (Open Lock, Spot)
Feats: Skill Focus Use Magic Device, Skill Focus Disable, Skill Focus Search, Mental Toughness, Improved Mental Toughness, Heighten Spell, Extend Spell, Enlarge Spell, Toughness?

Human Rogue 2 / Pally X (Rogue at Levels 9 and 10)
Role: Melee, Healing (lay hands and wands), Buffing, Misc (wands), Raise Dead (scrolls)
Stats: STR 16 (+3 levels, +1 enhancements), CHA 16 (+3 enhancements), INT 12, CON/WIS 10
Skills: Use Magic Device, Haggle, (Heal, Balance)
Feats: Skill Focus Use Magic Device, Mental Toughness, Skill Focus Haggle, Improved Critical Slash, Shield Mastery, Toughness?

This is only a couple minutes thought but should get most content :)

[Strakeln]

Ya - forgot the bard/pally build was a glitch - one cliff jump for me :o You weren't alone. I was following your tail lights.

[Krazed]

Human Rogue 1 / Wizard X
Role: Thief, Buffing, Crowd Control, Healing (wands), Arcane (wands and scrolls), Raise Dead (scrolls)
Stats: INT 18, CON/CHR 14
Skills: Use Magic Device, Seach, Disable, Concentration, (Open Lock, Spot)
Feats: Skill Focus Use Magic Device, Skill Focus Disable, Skill Focus Search, Mental Toughness, Improved Mental Toughness, Heighten Spell, Extend Spell, Enlarge Spell, Toughness?


I wouldn't really suggest this build right now. The new enhancement system utterly destroyed HV, one of the primary things a build like this relies on.

[stockwizard5]

I wouldn't really suggest this build right now. The new enhancement system utterly destroyed HV, one of the primary things a build like this relies on.

The changes to the Human Versitility Enhancements certainly hurt this build but consider the target audience - two new players who want to duo the most content. We are not talking CoF elite speed runs with six guildies :)

[roscopico]

I wouldn't really suggest this build right now. The new enhancement system utterly destroyed HV, one of the primary things a build like this relies on.

Thats why I say: for duo builds, forget roguing entirely.

[Humperdink]

Since Warforged was mentioned earlier, I thought I'd throw in my two cents. I occasionally run with a friend who's a human 1Ftr/6Wiz. I'm a warforged 7th level barbarian. It's a great team- he hangs back and casts magic while taking baddies down with his holy repeater while I mop up on the front lines. If things get really bad he can defend himself ok by having armor on and a sheild and swinging a weapon. He built his character with decent dex and strength with the highest focus on intelligence of course. Being WF I have lots of immunities and being barbarian I have high DPS and a lot of hit points. And when the battle is over, he can heal me with wands. Now granted we didn't start out to build the perfect balanced pair to do Duo quests, but so far we've done up to level 9 quests. And we've succeeded were I know full parties have failed. Several other factors to consider no matter what you settle on: definitely will need cash to sustain yourself in potions and wands and such, of course higher quality equipment helps, some familiarity with the quest can be helpful and here's the biggest- be willing to be patient and use strategy. For the most part you're not going to blast through quests like a full party with crowd control and haste. Bottleneck monsters at doors, use ranged where you can, my wizard casts web, hypno, and other crowd control spells to handle the mobs while I pick them off. Some of the most fun I've had in DDO is questing just the two of us- taking time to explore and using tactics and intelligence to overcome difficult situations.

I forgot to mention- while a magic user can provide buffs and resistances to elemental damage, it's worth it to gain enough Favor Points so you can take advantage of what House P has to offer. After you've earned 75 House P favor points you can go to them and they will cast spells that will increase your Stats (strength, dexterity, etc), protection from elemental magic (fire, cold, etc) and other things like Jump or more Hit Points (False Life). These buffs last 30 minutes and WILL stay with you when you enter a quest, unlike regular player buffs.

[Goldheart]

I'm very partial to Use Magic Device, and would recomend it for both party members of a duo. Being able to cast whatever scrolls you need for any particular mission is a big boon. Raise dead scrolls go without mention.

I'm also partial to the roguebard as being the best jack of all trades. (Only 1 or 2 levels of rogue necessary - I took my second at level 12 for evasion and to top off skills - 1st level must be rogue) However, you have to be good players to max your survivability potential.

Given that partiallity, I will still have to say that two fighter/pally/rogues with umd have the best survivability and potential. These two can actually split the rouging duties building a sense of teamwork and dependence and cooperation (great for father-son). Here's how I would do it:

3 rogue/3 pally/6 fighter (or 2/4/6 or 2/3/7)
This fighter would have high dex/int/cha - will handle search/disable traps, open locks and utilize finess and be able to hit stuff at range with bows.

2 rogue/10 pally
This fighter would have high str/con/wis/cha will handle spotting traps/secret doors, and have some natural spell casting ability. note: more feats with fighter mixed in may outweigh pally spells if you don't mind buying lots of scrolls and potions, in that case stop after 3 or 4 pally levels.

Both would maintain UMD as a skill, including the skill focus use magic device feat. Both can put out damage to down foes with a high regen. Both can take hits. Both can raise their partner via scroll wih UMD (though expensive)

Alternatively: I might suggest full cleric with rogue/pally/fighter hybrid. Work spot in with the cleric (dwarf naturally good). A cleric can meele early on but then have awesome offense + damage mitigation spells at higher level.

[Goldheart]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazed
I wouldn't really suggest this build right now. The new enhancement system utterly destroyed HV, one of the primary things a build like this relies on.

Thats why I say: for duo builds, forget roguing entirely.

Not even my human 28pnt rogue/bard was reliant upon HV. It was a huge help, but not a necessity. Decent equipment is more important. I checked elite content and I can both find and disable traps easily without the HV boost and the toughest locks that some full rogues can't do even boosting. The difference is +10 open/disable rings and +11 search goggles. What I can't do is spot easily (I don't have an item I'd wear regularly for that) and I have low wisdom. but alas, many many rogues don't spot so well. (If I really really wanted to, I could wear my +7 spot item, keep an owls wisdom buff(or item) on and probably spot more stuff, but it's not that important to me. What I did in elite Made to Order, the Haywire quest with all the mines, was simply search a couple times per hallway.

In any event, a rogue hybrid has every chance of making the lower and easier quests more enjoyable and fulfilling, as long as rogue was taken for the first level and all the skills are maintained afterwards.

[LOUDRampart]

Since dad presumably knows the game and his son presumably doesn't know the game...

I would recommend WF as race.

One play Rogue 2/Pali X (you may want to increase Rogue levels later to flesh out some feats)

Other play Wizard (I wouldn't recommend Sorc unless the player is already familiar with arcane casters also Wizard gives more spell versitility for some encounters)

UMD would be nice with both characters but not a necessity (:eek: did he really say that?)

With these two characters you can pretty much play all normal, most hard, and a lot of elite content. Grant it, you won't be able to clear every nook and cranny of every map and you will need to hire mercenaries (other players) to help with some of the content, especially when you make it to the current high end game but you will have some fun getting there.

[LOUDRampart]

Alright, revision here.

I deleted one of my toons (yes I delete high level toons but keep my "main") and built a WF duo with my son just to try this. We both have a pretty good working knowledge of what works and what doesn't.

I'm thinking now, WF is not duo to take. The reason is the disadvantages are such that it is difficult to overcome them to get a "balance".

What we ended up with is a fighter and a Rogue/Wizard. We're going to try this for 5 or so levels (not much time invested and see how they pan out.

Things we're thinking about:
Fighter: Very strong, should do well. Made LG so can add two or three levels of Pali later if think necessary. Can add two levels of rogue later for evasion if necessary (not focused on any trap smithing with this character).

Rogue/Wizard: Int only 16 and Chr 14. That means two of three main skills can go up each level... gotta choose between search, disable and umd. All other skills suffer....

Options: Keep Fighter as is but make R/W Drow for more balanced build and 18 int. Use two Drow for team. (If 32 point build is available you can substitute Elf for Drow).