What is required to effectively trip?

[jbrownos]

I'm strongly considering grabbing improved trip at either 11 or 12 on my current character, but I want to make sure it will be fairly effective. I know that trip DCs are affected by strength and enhancements, as well as getting a 14 base on Improved Trip.

The character has 22 strength currently including a +4 item, and should have 24 by level 12. He has enough fighter levels to take the +1 and possible +2 enhancements to trip. He can also take the +1 "tactics" dwarf enhancement if necessary. Based on that, I'm guessing he would have a DC in the mid to low 20s, and I have absolutely no idea what that effectively means against opponents.

I also have a +6 trip weapon, but it isn't an especially effective weapon for damage. It seems cumbersome to get the interface to switch weapons while attacking, and I often seem to miss at least a couple of rounds of attack getting back to my main weapon (even using keyboard assignments). Does anyone else have this issue and possibly know of any suggestions?

[Jaywade]

you might be able to trip somethings but you should first now how trip works.....
1. you hit your attack trip button anf you roll to see if ou hit the mob....if you do the mob gets a str roll to see if he is triped or not ...it is important to know this is a str roll only ...if he fails the str roll he is triped
2. now to get up he has to make a balance check against the dc of your trip...which will include any enchancements and items you have so with the weapon you stated you would have a +9 to the dc of your trip from the enhancement and weapon that would stack ontop of you lvl and improved trip dc ...now this is where build and item is important the higher your trip is the more likely the mob not going to get up and you can keep beating on him...

I think that unless you can have a str of 28 or better and max out on the trip enchancements your not going to be happy with trip....my main's trip was nerfed since the new enchancement system ...I use to be able to to trip something and it never got up (I have the old +7 or 8 to trip fighter enchancement and dwarven tat's and hsc str is 28) ...underthe new system I have the +4 to trip dwaven tat's 2 so that's a totoal of +6 to the dc of my trip and I use a +8 vert weapon so a total of +14 to my trip where it used to be around 20....stuff dosen;t stayed trip as long but I rarely miss a trip...but to landed a trip as more to do with hitting the mob nd then being stronger...you might run into a problem with that.... hope this helps

[Ghoste]

Your trip DC (when you have 24 str)
10 base
+4 improved trip
+7 str bonus
+2 enhancement
+6 vertigo weapon
--------
29 Total DC

That will easily trip most baddies. Someone the same size category as you with a str (or dex - whichever is higher) score of 30 will have to roll a 19 or 20 to save against your trips. Giants will get a +4 size bonus on their rolls.

Enemies you will find this particularily effective against with that DC:
Ogres, trolls, goblinoids, basic hill giants, demons (fleshrenders, etc.), golems, humanoids, monstrous humanoids kobolds...may be missing a few, but those all give you a pretty wide range of enemies that you will notice are easy totrip with that DC and you will also notice that they will tend to stay down once tripped for quite a while. Fleshrenders in particular seem to have an absolutely horrid balance skill: takes them forever to get back up. You will come to learn which golems are easier to trip. Iron golems have a higher ac, but when you do hit them, they will likely go down. Clay golems are quite easy to hit, and also go down pretty easily.

[AegisAndy]

I suspect that your Str may be a bit low to get off a lot of trips on mobs at high level elite. But with a good vertigo item and a couple of enhancements, you may be able to get to a decent effectiveness.

As a previous poster noted, the most important thing is hitting the mob. Since you have a long timer on trip, you don't want to miss your one trip attempt per mob. In some sense, because of your multi-class build and your low strength, you may be better off with a +5 vertigo (4) item than a +2 Vertigo (10) item, for example.

As far as swapping weapons, etc. my solution has been two-fold on my capped fighter. One, I've collected vertigo axes of each elemental damage type (like +3 Flaming Vert 4, for example) that provide me with a decent balance of both damage and tripping ability. I also carry an axe that has a +10 vertigo for mobs that I expect to be very difficult to trip. With the +10, as you said it does relatively less damage than most of my axes, so when I trip with it, I usually sacrifice a swing of combat to swap in a high-damage axe instead.

[Aranticus]

if you want to run a strategist, you need to look deeper into your char. does it have 13 int? if no, then no combat expertise, no combat expertise = no imp trip. you also need a higher str. the higher the str the higher is your trip dc. enhancement is also important. in order for my strategist to work well, i took ftr strategy trip and stun IV. thats close to 20 ap used.

a trip needs a hit to occur. if you have a +6 vertigo item, prolly it is a +1 weapon. with a low str your attack bonus will not be high, and thus not likely to hit on the 1st attack, i suggest you hit the mob 3 times then trip so that you have an additional +10 to your attack roll. a +6 vertigo is fine. i too use a +6 vertigo more frequently now rather than my +1 keen battle axe of vertigo +8. why? coz its the shining crescents from the titan raid loot.... +5 adamantine 2H sickle vertigo +6 tendon slice +6 :D

[tihocan]

I use trip a lot and it's incredibly effective. Even at only 23 str when I'm not raging, and with no enhancement increasing the DC.
However, I'm using improved trip and a vertigo +10 weapon. I usually trip on the third (low AC) or fourth (high AC) swing.
If you don't want to use a vertigo weapon (it does slow down damage, and it's annoying when the trip fails), I guess your enhancements should allow you to trip regularly enough to make improved trip worth buying.

[jbrownos]

Based on the responses, it sounds like I would probably benefit reasonably well from having improved trip. Tihocan kind of made a point that I didn't really think of - that I trip towards the end of the attack sequence. Since that gives me a higher attack bonus and also means I don't lose out on three other attacks, it should make tripping much easier to integrate into combat.

I'm also getting the impression that I shouldn't expect to keep the enemy down every time with my DC, which is what I really expected. Honestly if I could trip an enemy for a significant length (ie more than 5 second) at least about 1/3 to 1/2 of the time then it will be well worth it for me. I'm not expecting to able to be incredibly good at it, I just want it to be significantly worthwhile. It sounds like I should be albe to expect that.

Anyway, thanks for the advice everyone, and I appreciate you all taking the time to respond. I was just a little wary of making a bad feat choice this late in the build, as high-level dragonshards don't exactly grow on trees.

[Shade]

At 42 strength with no special feats or enhancement.. I find it works around 40% on the stuff I usualy fight, high lvl elite things.. 2 legged ones anyways. 4+ legs, works maybe 5-10%.

Very effective against undead, especially my +4 flaming burst greataxe of vertigo +4. With that axe I can trip and kill and elite upper tier mummy before he can stand back up. Prevents them from casting prot from fire, so its very effective.

Works great on gnolls too. Other stuff, not as much allot of things seem much more resistant then it ever used to be.

When I equip my +10 vert wep tho, I do notice a huge improvement, with that I even manage to trip many high lvl elite boss mobs.

Resisting trip is a strength or dex save, whichever is higher. For players. Mobs, they just cheat and have set saves id say.

[Jaywade]

just curious how in the heck is it possible to have a 42 STR ... if you started w/ a 20 and increased at 4, 8 and 12 that would be 23....lets say you used your favor and got +2 str tome 25, +3 fighter str 28....and +6 str item 34...so how are you getting a 42????? please explain shade????

[Implements]

just curious how in the heck is it possible to have a 42 STR ... if you started w/ a 20 and increased at 4, 8 and 12 that would be 23....lets say you used your favor and got +2 str tome 25, +3 fighter str 28....and +6 str item 34...so how are you getting a 42????? please explain shade????

I'm guessing he gets some rage bonuses to strength ...

[Jaywade]

are there + 8 in rage bonus???? I don't know , never played a barb but that's hard to believe

[Aranticus]

Tihocan kind of made a point that I didn't really think of - that I trip towards the end of the attack sequence.

bah you read his post but not mine :p

[Ulfr]

are there + 8 in rage bonus???? I don't know , never played a barb but that's hard to believe

I haven't tried it myself yet, but I've heard you can stack a rage clicky/spell on a barbarian's rage ability. My Barb/Ranger gets about +6 from his own rage ability. But then I'm not sure tripping is allowed when raged.

[Protagoras]

I haven't tried it myself yet, but I've heard you can stack a rage clicky/spell on a barbarian's rage ability. My Barb/Ranger gets about +6 from his own rage ability. But then I'm not sure tripping is allowed when raged.

Yeah except 42 strength without the +3 FTR str enhancment? Perhaps FTR/Barb *ponders* *goes to character generator to see* Human FTR/Barb Maybe?

okay real quickly made a Human Barb6/Ftr6


Base 18
Level +3
Ftr Enh +2
Hum Str I +1
Rage +4
Barb Rage enh +2
Tome +2
Rage Item +2 (assumes it stacks with barb rage ability)
Str Item +6
-----------------
40


Anything I am missing here to get to 42?

This build also tries to maximize trip also with taking fighter strategy. If you take more barbarian to get more rage enh to strength you lose out on Fighter Str Enh and trip enhancements. So I think this is maximized for STR and Trip together.

[Viza]

Yeah except 42 strength without the +3 FTR str enhancment? Perhaps FTR/Barb *ponders* *goes to character generator to see* Human FTR/Barb Maybe?

okay real quickly made a Human Barb6/Ftr6


Base 18
Level +3
Ftr Enh +2
Hum Str I +1
Rage +4
Barb Rage enh +2
Tome +2
Rage Item +2 (assumes it stacks with barb rage ability)
Str Item +6
-----------------
40


Anything I am missing here to get to 42?

This build also tries to maximize trip also with taking fighter strategy. If you take more barbarian to get more rage enh to strength you lose out on Fighter Str Enh and trip enhancements. So I think this is maximized for STR and Trip together.

Yes it does stack and you get greater rage (+6 vs. +4) at level 11. If I were to multiclass a barbarian, It'd be Barb 11/whatever. Greater rage rocks.

Check the Maldini Build (http://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43251) out to see where it all comes from.

[tihocan]

42 str is pure barb: 18 (base) + 3 (level) + 6 (item) + 2 (tome) + 6 (greater rage) + 4 (power rage enhancement) + 2 (rage spell) + 1 (human enhancement) = 42

[Protagoras]

42 str is pure barb: 18 (base) + 3 (level) + 6 (item) + 2 (tome) + 6 (greater rage) + 4 (power rage enhancement) + 2 (rage spell) + 1 (human enhancement) = 42

Thank you sir!

[broncosfan78]

problem is i didnt see "shade" doing the math to back up his post...so unfortunately i'd need a screenshot of his character sheet to even believe this...sorry to play the doubting thomas...but letting others attempt to do the math for you is a sign (again in my own opinion) that you yourself do not have that kind of stat...

NOT HATING...just being incredibly realistic and of course playing the "doubting Thomas" again..

please humor me if you dont mind with a screen shot of your 42 str...not to mention i thought you couldnt trip when raged...again not sure

[Thrudh]

FYI - You CAN trip when raging...

And a Barb/Fighter combination can be very effective under the new enhancement system...

A dwarf 6/6 Fighter/Barb can get +2 CON from Barb, +2 CON from Dwarf, +2 Strength from fighter...

+6 STR and CON from 6th level barbarian rage... Plus you can get the fighter and dwarf tactics enhancmenets...

And the fighter Action Boosts... And Barb DR/damage boosts...

Plus the fighter levels give you enough feats to easily get Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Stunning Blow...

I'm personally working on such a build right now... (Not sure if I'm going 7/6/1 Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger or 6/6/2) - I added the ranger level to the mix for Bow Strength and the ability to use cure wands

At level 8, with a 24 STR and Improved Trip (no vertigo weapon), I can trip fairly well... When Raging (Barb rage and ring of rage), my STR jumps to 31, and I trip quite often...

I do have 2 levels of Dwarven tactics (+2) and one level of Fighter Strategy for trip (+1)

It's a very useful skill

[Aranticus]

yeap trip is seriously a very useful feat. just yesterday i took down the house p vamp on elite. wiped twice at first coz the casters and the clr fired spells 1st and took agro. on our 3rd try, we had a ftr and rog charge it while the casters and clr waited behind. i quickly ran to the back of the vamp to get flanking bonus. we did it this way coz whenever the casters/clr attacked him with spells, he'll turn gaseous and thus make me miss my trips.

once i tripped him, he layed down for quite some time (enough for us to get him down by 40%. took a total of 3 trips to kill him, with each trip hitting him the moment he stands up.

[philo]

NOT HATING...just being incredibly realistic and of course playing the "doubting Thomas" again..

please humor me if you dont mind with a screen shot of your 42 str...not to mention i thought you couldnt trip when raged...again not sure

You really need a screenshot laf? max strength for a human barb prior to enhancment change was 43, 42 for other races...now its 42 human....41 for all other races.

It has been like that since the cap was increased to 12...this isnt new info...

[Maldini]

You really need a screenshot laf? max strength for a human barb prior to enhancment change was 43, 42 for other races...now its 42 human....41 for all other races.

It has been like that since the cap was increased to 12...this isnt new info...

Yeah and if they didn't drop down Power Rage, Huamn's would be sitting at 44 Strength with a +3 Tome from the Stormreaver right now.