human or drow?

[scorn_the_infallible]

with the new enhancements humans get the +1 cha enhancement for 2 pts


so is drow worth missing out on the dragonmarks and extra feat?

[Gol]

Boils down to personal preference in my opinion. If you don't have access to 32 point characters yet, then Drow may edge out a 28 point Human from a strict "number crunching" point of view. If the Dragonmarks are worth it to you, then yeah, Human is obviously the better solution.

I have 32 point access and still made a Drow Sorc a couple months ago.

[Jakylpops]

Sad to say it, but drow are far superior as casters, even if you have the 32 point build unlocked. You can either push your main stat up to 20 from the begininng, or settle for 18 and give yourself an extra 6 build points to play around with (good for nuke mages who don't rely on targets failing all their saving throws). Sure someday humans may get the ability to buy a +2 enhancement by spending a large chunk of action points, but at this level 19 is still the max.

[Rotard]

Sad to say it, but drow are far superior as casters, even if you have the 32 point build unlocked. You can either push your main stat up to 20 from the begininng, or settle for 18 and give yourself an extra 6 build points to play around with (good for nuke mages who don't rely on targets failing all their saving throws). Sure someday humans may get the ability to buy a +2 enhancement by spending a large chunk of action points, but at this level 19 is still the max.

Well, when the level cap increases to 14, based on previous loot, you can probably expect +7 stat items to start dropping. That would increase the max drow int/cha to 35, and it would increase the max human stat to 34. So, with the right gear, a human build will be superior.

[Klattuu]

Sad to say it, but drow are far superior as casters, even if you have the 32 point build unlocked. You can either push your main stat up to 20 from the begininng, or settle for 18 and give yourself an extra 6 build points to play around with (good for nuke mages who don't rely on targets failing all their saving throws). Sure someday humans may get the ability to buy a +2 enhancement by spending a large chunk of action points, but at this level 19 is still the max.

I wouldn't say 'far superior'. My personal observation I would say that Drow are marginally superior in casting spells and spell points, if both builds are done in Min/Max mode, but humans make up for that difference in other ways. 32 point build Humans comparatively are all-around marginally superior to Drow even with the 1 point maximum attribute difference.

[bigj1608]

Drow aren't at all superior to humans.... what are you people talking about? :confused: Drow can have a base 20 cha.. so check this out:
base stats
blah blah blah
Charisma: 20
+3 from leveling = 23
+3 from sorcerer's charisma 3 enhancement = 26
+6 cha item = 32
+2 tome = 34
where does this 35 for just drow come from?
and now, check out humans:
extra feat,
sure, 18 base cha, but thats not a big deal
18 + 3 from levels = 21
+3 sorcerer's cha 3 = 24
+2 new human adaptibilty ehancement = 26
+6 item = 32
+2 tome = 34

bam, drow aren't at all superior, and they actually miss out on a feat.. sure, innate SR and maybe a little higher dex, but what else? a nice SR and dex item make up for that and you get an extra feat as a human..

[MuadDib]

.. so check this out:
base stats
blah blah blah

+2 new human adaptibilty ehancement = 26

That's the bit that you'll get contention on.

I still slightly prefer drow to humans in the new enhancement system for several reasons. Drow hit the higher charisma modifier in the current system and when the breakpoint shifts up one they will require less resources to hit the maximum charisma through either items or enhancement points. They also have a couple of cool enhancements including saves to enchantments that make a Drow sorcerer significantly more difficult to hypno, dance or hold than their human counterparts. That's enough to outweigh the human advantages of a bonus feat and less expensive CON in my opinion.

[Zanker]

Drow aren't at all superior to humans.... what are you people talking about? :confused: Drow can have a base 20 cha.. so check this out:
base stats
blah blah blah
Charisma: 20
+3 from leveling = 23
+3 from sorcerer's charisma 3 enhancement = 26
+6 cha item = 32
+2 tome = 34
where does this 35 for just drow come from?
and now, check out humans:
extra feat,
sure, 18 base cha, but thats not a big deal
18 + 3 from levels = 21
+3 sorcerer's cha 3 = 24
+2 new human adaptibilty ehancement = 26
+6 item = 32
+2 tome = 34

bam, drow aren't at all superior, and they actually miss out on a feat.. sure, innate SR and maybe a little higher dex, but what else? a nice SR and dex item make up for that and you get an extra feat as a human..

One extra feat: It depends on what feat you are taking. If you are planning to take spell focus that increases +1 dc to particular spell, drows will be better than human because of +1 dc to all spell from 20 cha. If you are planning to take spell peneration, human will be better beacuse of one extra feat.

SR: Even with SR 11, it is better than nothing. Pluse drows will get +2 wil save against Enchantment spells and an additional +2 Will save bonus against spells and spell-like effects. And drows are immune to sleep spell.

I think human adaptibility enhancement will only give +1 cha.

[scorn_the_infallible]

i found with my wizard con is king and the extra con imoa is worth 1 less cha

new adapability is +2 ?

[Fennario]

Looking ahead to the endgame, from a min/max standpoint, in my opinion it will be the human that is superior to the drow. Why do I think that? The reason lies in this quote by a DEV in another thread:



Those maximums are guaranteed to change over time as the level cap increases. You'll eventually be seeing higher level inherent bonuses and stat increases from level. At 16, for example, you're guaranteed another point of Wisdom.

+5 Level (4, 8, 12, 16, 20)
+3 Action Point (Cleric's Wisdom)
+1 Action Point (Human Adaptability)
+6 Enhancement Bonus from Item
+5 Inherent Bonus
---
+20 Total

Humans win in the end.


So this lets us know that at endgame there will be +5 tomes. It also lets us know that there will not be stat items greater than +6. When min/maxing a sorcerer, the two main stats are charisma and constitution. Lets look at max charisma for both races at level 20:

Human

18
+5 level ups
+3 enhancement
+1 enhancement
+6 item
+5 tome
--------
38 = +14 mod

Drow

20
+5 level ups
+3 enhancement
+6 item
+5 tome
-------
39 = +14 mod


So at end game, the max charisma mod for each race will be exactly the same. As for constitution, we all know that a drow cannot start with higher than 14 while maxing charisma. Humans can start with as high as 18 if they choose. Therefore, from a min/max point of view, the human wins because of the superior constitution.

The drow camp will argue that they don't have to spend extra action points on charisma. True, but at level 20 we will have 80 action points. I'm pretty sure that the 2 points spent on Human Adaptability are not going to be crippling.

Yeah, but what about SR?

Well, a human can throw on a belt, ring, or robe that will make his spell resistance HIGHER than a drow with SR maxed out. This may or may not be true at higher levels, but as of now it is.

Yeah, but what about higher saves against enchantments?

Ok, the drow win there if they wish to invest in that enhancement. But I think the extra hitpoints, extra fort saves, higher concentration, higher skill capabilities (UMD anyone???), and access to Dragonmarks if it tickles your fancy, outweigh that one enhancement. Oh yeah, I almost forgot to mention an EXTRA FEAT!!

So I'll keep rolling along with my human. The differences will always be subtle. But when its all said and done, at endgame, he will be throwing his head back in laughter at his inferior inky counterparts.:D

[roughdoughnut]

drow

[Varis]

eventually humans will get as high or higher charisma then drow with enough investment on enhancements.

Still kinda up in the air if you ask me. It comes down to preference.

If you make the "currently" popular sorc build (max cha, rest in con), then from a min/max point of view, humans will be the better choice.

Humans will be tougher and a little bit more versatile (extra feat) then their drow counterpart.

I would wait until you can do a 32 point build personally. With that you can have 18 con and 18 cha as starting stats.


me? I go drow 100%. They are just as good a mage and while I don't have as many HP's, I don't really lag behind them. In turn I have access to arcane fluidity and play a fun armored mage :D

[Samitsu]

I chose drow for the arcane fluidity enhancement. i hate robes.

[WilbyZ]

... but Fearsome Robe of Axeblock is so cool :)

[ChildrenofBodom]

Drow aren't at all superior to humans.... what are you people talking about? :confused: Drow can have a base 20 cha.. so check this out:
base stats
blah blah blah
Charisma: 20
+3 from leveling = 23
+3 from sorcerer's charisma 3 enhancement = 26
+6 cha item = 32
+2 tome = 34
where does this 35 for just drow come from?
and now, check out humans:
extra feat,
sure, 18 base cha, but thats not a big deal
18 + 3 from levels = 21
+3 sorcerer's cha 3 = 24
+2 new human adaptibilty ehancement = 26
+6 item = 32
+2 tome = 34

bam, drow aren't at all superior, and they actually miss out on a feat.. sure, innate SR and maybe a little higher dex, but what else? a nice SR and dex item make up for that and you get an extra feat as a human..


Yes, Humans have the adaptibility where they can get +1 to any stat. Yes, there is a second one where you can do this again, but you can not use it on the same stat as you did before. So, if you use Human Adaptibility I and choose Charisma, you cannot get charisma again with Human Adaptibility II. You can choose con, wisdom, str, etc, but not charisma. If that were the case, then it would be almost pointless to choose drow if you had 32 point.

Edit: I'll try and find where the Devs have stated this, but it is an old thread.

[spifflove]

I know this thread is comparing strait sorcerers but I'd like to add that Drow are far more versatile and are the choice to go to for people who desire the following:
1. greater ac
2. ability to damage using stat damagers and ranged weapons
3. Rogue multiclasses
4. Dex fighters.

My pure sorcerer is human for rp reasons. The cost for rp is that I have no effective physical attacks. My sorcerer multiclasses are drow and keep on dishing out the damage even when the mana is gone. They also disable traps.