Worst dragon PUG ever (or at least right up there)

[Cliffopold]

Here's my story, sad but very true. Thought I'd share it because it wasn't exactly funny at the time, but I think it somewhat so now.

Typical Sunday afternoon VoN 5 outting on hard with a very well balanced group, including a bard and three clerics, ranging from levels 10 - 12. I'm playing as my 12th level ranger, whom you may know as Roinalcarwe. One of our clerics had the star, but he wasn't saying much through either VC or PC, so a 12 fighter (who happens to also be a guild leader) took the de facto con. Things proceeded quite smoothly even with his lost connection, though I attribute this primarily to my grabbing the arcane signet ring and Hayward's voice, doing the wheels, making sure the power conduits got turned on, fixing the puzzle (which our leader was doing incorrectly throughout), and generally ensuring everything other than killing all creatures in sight got accomplished. I even dropped the ladders in the south room by myself (jump and evasion are wonderful things).

We get to Arach's Knight; various members of the party are getting last minute potions and mana. Unbeknownst to anyone, we had a sorceror who had never done VoN before. He talks to Arach... before two of our three clerics are back and before anyone has any buffs on. :eek: 9 people are inside. We drop the Knight easily enough, but after rezzing and healing, our lone cleric has 3/4 of a mana bar left. OK, you're thinking "idiot, why didn't you tell him not to talk to Arach?" *sigh* Our leader decides to proceed into VoN 6 on normal.

I was undoubtedly more qualified for the job, but our fighter commander decided to run the bases. I will merely say that his build is - questionable - without going into details... he had significant trouble with the flensers, and the mephits killed him outright on second. Our brave cleric, now with half a bar of blue, gets him back up. Now I've heard of this happening, never actually having seen it until then, but the earth elementals knocked him off the bridge. The merry gathering down to 8 at this point, we send out another (much more capable fighter) to finish the job. Then the unthinkable happens - whether it was lag, or a matter of spazzing out, who's to say... the cleric falls off the bridge and perishes in the fires of atmospheric re-entry. And the bard can't UMD rez scrolls because he has none.

I promptly recalled and left party. It wasn't a failure, technically, since Velah or her minions didn't wipe us :mad:

[Temp]

Careful. Gonna sprain your wrist patting yourself on the back that much.

[MrCow]

It happens now and then.

Personally, my worst dragon run was the one where we had two clerics that we donated about 500,000 gold collectively for raise dead scrolls and cure serious wands and they both decided to bail with no warning just before we planned to do the STR lever/WIS rune/ranged target area. Took quite a while to find WIS people to finish VoN 5.

[Cliffopold]

Careful. Gonna sprain your wrist patting yourself on the back that much.

I just prefer to get the job done properly. It's disappointing when no one else wants to, and I have no qualms about doing it myself. My wrist is perfectly functional, thank you :p


It happens now and then.

Personally, my worst dragon run was the one where we had two clerics that we donated about 500,000 gold collectively for raise dead scrolls and cure serious wands and they both decided to bail with no warning just before we planned to do the STR lever/WIS rune/ranged target area. Took quite a while to find WIS people to finish VoN 5.

Ouch. Did you ever have to donate a +4 wisdom item and a +1 wisdom tome to a paladin so he could do it? Laugh if you must, but I've seen it happen.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Here's my story, sad but very true. <snip>

Then the unthinkable happens - whether it was lag, or a matter of spazzing out, who's to say... the cleric falls off the bridge and perishes in the fires of atmospheric re-entry. And the bard can't UMD rez scrolls because he has none.

I promptly recalled and left party. It wasn't a failure, technically, since Velah or her minions didn't wipe us :mad:Why didn't you continue!?! You're down to 7. Assume one death to pull the mobs and at least one death vs. Velah (with no rez possibility) = 5 people rolling for dragon loot. You've gone from 1 in 12 and 1 in 11 (17% chance at Dragon loot) to 1 in 5 and 1 in 4 (45% chance at dragon loot)!!! :D More than likely if you had beaten her, it would be 1 or 2 people rolling for loot. Silly Cliffopold. :rolleyes: /shakes head

[Ghoste]

I've learned from multiple experiences that you have to make sure to repeat everything. Make sure people who havent done it before know every last little detail about the quest. Ran this one yesterday as well, and one person who hadnt done it before thought the group leader was being insulting by going over every step. When we got to Velah, someone (i think one of the other casters in the group) ran straight for cover behind all the rocks. The leader had been convinced to shut his mouth, and did so. So someone didnt know not to run there. Instant cleric wipe as they were spammed with flamestrikes. The rest of the party didnt last long with all that extra stuff hitting them. Well, at least no one had their intelligence insulted anymore by having the steps calmly and unoffensively related to them.

[Cliffopold]

Why didn't you continue!?! You're down to 7. Assume one death to pull the mobs and at least one death vs. Velah (with no rez possibility) = 5 people rolling for dragon loot. You've gone from 1 in 12 and 1 in 11 (17% chance at Dragon loot) to 1 in 5 and 1 in 4 (45% chance at dragon loot)!!! :D More than likely if you had beaten her, it would be 1 or 2 people rolling for loot. Silly Cliffopold. :rolleyes: /shakes head

While I rather appreciate your optimism, you have to understand that morale wasn't exactly very high in the group by this time. I'm sure it would have harbored some jealousy and anger against the two (or one!!) person that survived and picked up all the loot. Not to mention that the leader was the type who probably wouldn't have passed off the star!


I've learned from multiple experiences that you have to make sure to repeat everything. Make sure people who havent done it before know every last little detail about the quest. Ran this one yesterday as well, and one person who hadnt done it before thought the group leader was being insulting by going over every step. When we got to Velah, someone (i think one of the other casters in the group) ran straight for cover behind all the rocks. The leader had been convinced to shut his mouth, and did so. So someone didnt know not to run there. Instant cleric wipe as they were spammed with flamestrikes. The rest of the party didnt last long with all that extra stuff hitting them. Well, at least no one had their intelligence insulted anymore by having the steps calmly and unoffensively related to them.

Yep... when all else fails, get back to basics. Like the various military branches say: K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple, Stupid.

[AlariaTheAngry]

Ouch. Did you ever have to donate a +4 wisdom item and a +1 wisdom tome to a paladin so he could do it? Laugh if you must, but I've seen it happen.


I WAS THERE! lol yep that was us...ROTFL it was freaking hilarious too lol

" young ones....we have reached the pinacle of eliteness....I have sacrificed my wisdom to your great hero....my tome is now....YOUR MASTER KEY!" LOL

[jkm]

Here's my story, sad but very true. Thought I'd share it because it wasn't exactly funny at the time, but I think it somewhat so now.

Typical Sunday afternoon VoN 5 outting on hard with a very well balanced group, including a bard and three clerics, ranging from levels 10 - 12. I'm playing as my 12th level ranger, whom you may know as Roinalcarwe. One of our clerics had the star, but he wasn't saying much through either VC or PC, so a 12 fighter (who happens to also be a guild leader) took the de facto con. Things proceeded quite smoothly even with his lost connection, though I attribute this primarily to my grabbing the arcane signet ring and Hayward's voice, doing the wheels, making sure the power conduits got turned on, fixing the puzzle (which our leader was doing incorrectly throughout), and generally ensuring everything other than killing all creatures in sight got accomplished. I even dropped the ladders in the south room by myself (jump and evasion are wonderful things).

We get to Arach's Knight; various members of the party are getting last minute potions and mana. Unbeknownst to anyone, we had a sorceror who had never done VoN before. He talks to Arach... before two of our three clerics are back and before anyone has any buffs on. :eek: 9 people are inside. We drop the Knight easily enough, but after rezzing and healing, our lone cleric has 3/4 of a mana bar left. OK, you're thinking "idiot, why didn't you tell him not to talk to Arach?" *sigh* Our leader decides to proceed into VoN 6 on normal.

I was undoubtedly more qualified for the job, but our fighter commander decided to run the bases. I will merely say that his build is - questionable - without going into details... he had significant trouble with the flensers, and the mephits killed him outright on second. Our brave cleric, now with half a bar of blue, gets him back up. Now I've heard of this happening, never actually having seen it until then, but the earth elementals knocked him off the bridge. The merry gathering down to 8 at this point, we send out another (much more capable fighter) to finish the job. Then the unthinkable happens - whether it was lag, or a matter of spazzing out, who's to say... the cleric falls off the bridge and perishes in the fires of atmospheric re-entry. And the bard can't UMD rez scrolls because he has none.

I promptly recalled and left party. It wasn't a failure, technically, since Velah or her minions didn't wipe us :mad:

the sorc was me. i also sent him a tell saying i hadn't ran it before i joined the group and he said it was okay. i also explicitly told him to tell me NOT to do something if it shouldn't be done. that being said, i was still a moron for talking to the guy as that was the first time in the game i've ever done that on a first time through a quest (normally i just watch and have no idea what i'm doing the next time i run the quest - "there is a switch around here somewhere")

[Tiblorian]

=\ this is why you don't pug raids, just 6man them if you dont have enough guildies, honestly, 4 manning the dragon is easier than 4 guildies+8 pug member killing it. And If your paying 50k plat for a dragon raid, there is a BIG problem.

[Selinius]

Ran von 5 with a pug back when I wasn't very familer with the mission. The raid leaders did a good job getting us up to and past the str/wis levers/runes. We get people on the towers the top group past the gates, then the leader and his 2 friends get into a discussion on wether you can "talk" to god. The 3 people who know the mission get so engrosed in their discussion that the raid grinds to a halt. They must no have been looking at party chat because there were at least 5 different post of "What happens if I pull this lever and open the door?" After 30 min of standing around, I recalled and dropped group. As interesting as their discussion was, I wanted to kill a dragon, not stand around and be boared out of my mind.

[Attuny]

I could sit here all day and talk about fun, or not so fun dragon experiences. I would have to say though that falling off the platform (I did it once) has got to be the worst. Maybe we need to talk to Haywire about putting some railing in there.

The DD door thing is a pretty bad trick though. Some things are funny, some things are not. I must say if I was the one that clicked on the door, warped back, got killed and dropped my stone I would be ****ed. Would probably laugh after the item was safe in my inventory but until that point I would not be a happy camper.

[Tiblorian]

The dimension door trick is entirely unrequired. You can take the pillars down in four minutes easy by pulling all the monsters to a certain unnamed point that isnt homebase. If your pugging a random group with 6+ people for a dragon that you get from the lfm you need to consider a few things.

1)That at least 30% of people pugging the dragon aren't going to have killed her.
2)Are not doing a guild raid for a reason.
3)You can just 4 man it, and have a 3x(or more) chance of getting an item for yourself.

At this point the dragon is so easy that no one really cares whether your group was a good group or the bad group.

[Jolani]

I have to say I've had my share of bad dragon runs. Our Tank who was kiting recalling accidently, followed by the next kiter falling. How about everyone getting killed in the last seconds except the batman build with 34 UMD who finished off the dragon, but had no res scrolls, (no fault of his though, he was rushed and an obsolete alt with no gear).

Of course there is my cursed sorceress too, who twice failed killing the dragon by seconds due to extremely moody mobs who refused to be kited. Or, two consecutive attemts of von 5 ending with wipes on the knight, once by massive lightning damage (?) then by someone talking to Arach the second they saw him (also my sorc). And even when successful, having the non-UMD rogue take the ring, or the DV-less cleric.

Better yet is a run with a cleric who would not listen, a first timer with anger problems. He refused to listen to my guild leader because she was a woman. Wouldn't res people, and used half his mana on Arach. He got impatient while we were kiting in 6 and screamed for 3 minutes over the voice chat about how our group sucked because the pillars were still up after 6 minutes. Then, as soon as the gate came down, he started casting at Velah, but was too stupid to move close enough. Wouldnt stay with the group when we attacked her, died, then ressed behind the rock after we told him three times not to. He nearly wiped us more times than anyone in any other runs I've been on, combined, and I've been on dozens. Needless to say, he did not get loot. Thankfully he passed me the leadership when I joined the raid....

[boldarblood]

I've slid off the ramps because of the ice flensers, got knocked down and slid right off the side.

[MotorEyes]

Sorry to hear about your luck. This is the reason I don't pug raids(not counting TS:p). I've only PUGged the dragon once, and would rather reroll a character and run WW then do that again. Seems like when PUGs go wrong they go terribly wrong.

[RobbinB]

I've brought up this point before, but I'll bring it up again. Why not just get rid of the whole kiting/pillar part of the quest? It does little to slow experienced guild groups, it only hurts the PUGs. Sitting around for 5-10-15-20 min plus for the whole kiting thing is a huge waste of time. Any group that survives Von5 deserves a shot at Velah. Why not just have a short bridge leading directly to the island. When you step on the island, it's game on. Groups that have someone do something "stupid" might still fail, but at least it would be quick and merciful. Sitting around for a failed kiting experience just leaves you feeling upset and not wanting to do the quest ever again. It seems to me the devs are very quick to change quests like BAM when tricks are discovered that make it easy (I'm referring to the ledge/firewall thing), but they are completely rigid when it comes to changing anything that makes a quest tougher, even if it's really just aggravating.

And I hope the run you were talking about wasn't the one on Thelanis that my friend took part him, prior to it I sent him tells saying "Velah is gonna kick your butt, you have no chance" and "after your wipe, please come join my group". I'm feeling a little guilty now.

P.S. 2nd case in point with respect to changes made to quests is demon queen 1 preraid where it resets when everyone dies, presumably to make it impossible to finish the quest from behind the door with blade barriers and no one inside. I'm sure there are many other examples of this sort of change.
Come on devs, quest changes should be a 2-way street, why do you feel the need to constantly try to one-up us?

[Falcone]

You know, it'd be a lot easier if there was an NPC in the Wavecrest who you could talk to and go ahead and select your dragon loot pieces. All of this running of vons, preparing for quests, getting equipment, actually playing the game...

If you don't enjoy it, don't do it. If it's no longer challenging, try doing it a different way. I play the game because the challenges are fun. The whole of von6 was originally very daunting and complicated to me, now after roughly a dozen dragon kills I understand the mechanics and feel comfortable leading raids. Even with a 6-man team that experienced, the pillars are not automatic, and go slightly differently each time. We still talk about strategies to approach it differently, and new tactics to try out. The pillars may be boring and a waste of time for you, but these raids give the best loot in the game, and learning to beat them is fun and rewarding to me. If you don't want to spend the time on the pillars, either don't run the raid, or play a class that will be waiting at the dragon, and take a nice afk while someone else does all the work for you.

[Invalid_6]

You know, it'd be a lot easier if there was an NPC in the Wavecrest who you could talk to and go ahead and select your dragon loot pieces. All of this running of vons, preparing for quests, getting equipment, actually playing the game...

If you don't enjoy it, don't do it. If it's no longer challenging, try doing it a different way. I play the game because the challenges are fun. The whole of von6 was originally very daunting and complicated to me, now after roughly a dozen dragon kills I understand the mechanics and feel comfortable leading raids. Even with a 6-man team that experienced, the pillars are not automatic, and go slightly differently each time. We still talk about strategies to approach it differently, and new tactics to try out. The pillars may be boring and a waste of time for you, but these raids give the best loot in the game, and learning to beat them is fun and rewarding to me. If you don't want to spend the time on the pillars, either don't run the raid, or play a class that will be waiting at the dragon, and take a nice afk while someone else does all the work for you.
I can agree with that. ;)



To the Sorc that talked to the guy... not your fault bro. The mistake was the leader that didn't tell you. Not yours.

To the OP, it sucks that things didn't turn out. Sounds like a series of unfortunate events. Sadly, we think this quest is so automatic, and some times it just isn't. We've had totally unexplained dragon wipes, and some that are just out right beat downs. Next time have the bard fascinate the group instead of pulling and dying. You guys might've been able to do it with a bit of creative thinking.

Tiblorian, you're statement about running 4 guildies is pretty accurate, but I'd have to modify that to say 4 players that you're confortable with. We run a smaller group through the Titan and Dragon almost weekly, but have much better success when the guys that play together normally, are together in raids. I think it's just a matter of knowing how the others are spec'd and knowing what they'll do in times of strife.

[Attuny]

I've brought up this point before, but I'll bring it up again. Why not just get rid of the whole kiting/pillar part of the quest? It does little to slow experienced guild groups, it only hurts the PUGs. Sitting around for 5-10-15-20 min plus for the whole kiting thing is a huge waste of time. Any group that survives Von5 deserves a shot at Velah. Why not just have a short bridge leading directly to the island. When you step on the island, it's game on. Groups that have someone do something "stupid" might still fail, but at least it would be quick and merciful. Sitting around for a failed kiting experience just leaves you feeling upset and not wanting to do the quest ever again. It seems to me the devs are very quick to change quests like BAM when tricks are discovered that make it easy (I'm referring to the ledge/firewall thing), but they are completely rigid when it comes to changing anything that makes a quest tougher, even if it's really just aggravating.

And I hope the run you were talking about wasn't the one on Thelanis that my friend took part him, prior to it I sent him tells saying "Velah is gonna kick your butt, you have no chance" and "after your wipe, please come join my group". I'm feeling a little guilty now.

P.S. 2nd case in point with respect to changes made to quests is demon queen 1 preraid where it resets when everyone dies, presumably to make it impossible to finish the quest from behind the door with blade barriers and no one inside. I'm sure there are many other examples of this sort of change.
Come on devs, quest changes should be a 2-way street, why do you feel the need to constantly try to one-up us?

I totally agree that the dragon encounter needs to be fixed. Unfortunately they have tried a few times and if they haven't got it yet, they won't...

I don't necesarily agree that VoN6 should just be a walk in and fight the dragon. Waiting for one person to run everything to home for however long it takes is horrible though. Both for the person pulling because it's not always as easy as people think. Pathing is really poor on the bridge and especially on corners (home).

I have heard of other tactics, and actually tried one but it was very risky. Not many people will try a harder tactic just for the principle. The work went into getting there and who wants to risk it by trying something new.

I don't think the devs are trying to one-up us, I just think that they do not play test this game as much as we might think they do. Im sure they play there is no doubt there, but how much info can one group of people give? Im glad they are trying to adapt and keep players on thier toes, it just seems that in certain instances they are failing miserably.

[RobbinB]

I don't think the devs are trying to one-up us, I just think that they do not play test this game as much as we might think they do. Im sure they play there is no doubt there, but how much info can one group of people give? Im glad they are trying to adapt and keep players on thier toes, it just seems that in certain instances they are failing miserably.

OK, saying the devs are trying to one-up us is kinda a glass is half-empty statement, I admit. But try this: Make a list of all the quests where some group of players actually came up with a "trick" that pretty much guaranteed success. I'm thinking of the ledge/firewall in BAM, the door/bb trick in demon queen 1, the ledge/archery in demon queen 2, the original "hide behind the rocks" in the dragon raid (only heard about that, wasn't playing then). In all cases those quests have been changed, usually making the "trick" obsolete. Now make a list of quests where there is definitely something aggravating (or "challenging" if that's your point of view) in a quest like the pillar thing in Von 6 or the endless respawns in some quests that arent linked to any logical causal explanation. Seems to me that THOSE quests have never been changed, so am I a pessimist or just seeing a pattern?

[Attuny]

OK, saying the devs are trying to one-up us is kinda a glass is half-empty statement, I admit. But try this: Make a list of all the quests where some group of players actually came up with a "trick" that pretty much guaranteed success. I'm thinking of the ledge/firewall in BAM, the door/bb trick in demon queen 1, the ledge/archery in demon queen 2, the original "hide behind the rocks" in the dragon raid (only heard about that, wasn't playing then). In all cases those quests have been changed, usually making the "trick" obsolete. Now make a list of quests where there is definitely something aggravating (or "challenging" if that's your point of view) in a quest like the pillar thing in Von 6 or the endless respawns in some quests that arent linked to any logical causal explanation. Seems to me that THOSE quests have never been changed, so am I a pessimist or just seeing a pattern?

You are exactly right and I think it's for one specific reason. Lack of play testing. The test server (when it's up and people actually play on it) is a good idea in theory. Not many people want to waste thier time there finding bugs, they would rather build thier characters. And of those few people playing on test and finding bugs how many do you think report tricks such as the ones you are talking about? Probably not many...Turbine hears about them when people brag about them on the boards.

I don't think your pesamistic at all and I totally agree there is a pattern. The only problem is no matter how hard they try the devs can and will NOT outsmart the players. They want to make adventures fun and challenging and it is a tight rope to walk. People are like water and will find the path of least resistance.

I must admit though in all the MMOs I have played I have seen more encounter changes here than anywhere else. This comes back to what I said before about play testing.