Weapon Comparison Tool

[jjflanigan]

A little application I wrote up today while waiting for my website deploy at work to finish.

It should be fairly bug free, but no guarantees.

It will allow you to "build" up two different weapons and compare how they will fare against mobs at a range of ACs. Quickly see if that +1 flaming burst longsword will do more damage for you, on average, than the +4 longsword you already have. Find out how much of an improvement picking up that Improved Crit feat or weapon focus will give.

Old Version (.NET 2.0) -- http://perfectweb.org/ddo/WeaponCompare.zip
Current Version (.NET 1.1) -- http://perfectweb.org/ddo/weaponCompare1_1dbg.zip

The Current "Working" version is created using the 1.1 .NET framework and includes logic for calculating actual DPS and not just damage per swing. It also is set up to calculate the "true" damage of a 2H weapon by incorporating damage from glancing blows against your main target. The DPS graph is only accurate up to BaB 6 right now as I work to collect more data on the true number of swings / minute of the various weapons at each BaB


Feedback always welcome. It was built for functionality today since I only had about 3 hours. I'll make it pretty once I verify all the bugs are gone :)


*** Current Version is 1.40 ***

[jjflanigan]

Made a few changes to it based upon PMs with issues. Broke out the weapon build windows to attached child forms to allow for more detailed item information.

[jjflanigan]

Doh, sorry, the new child forms were display as separate windows -- fixed that.

[jjflanigan]

Added "Ghost Touch" to the prefixes and a toggle to test for an incorporeal target.


*sigh* It's late, uploaded my debug version -- just fixed to the release version.

[jjflanigan]

Added in stances (Precision and Power Attack) to allow for comparison for average damage with them on and off on the same weapon.

[Tanka]

Have you talked to Ron, the guy who's making the character creator? You two could team up and do some great stuff to help out the community even more. :)

[marKram]

Application is quite nice. Thanks.

A small suggestion - having to click save each time I make a change is a bit of a pain. An auto-update option would help a lot.

Also, you might want to take the company name out of your build properties unless you don't mind people seeing where you work. The reason I mention this is that it burned me in the past...

[jjflanigan]

Application is quite nice. Thanks.

A small suggestion - having to click save each time I make a change is a bit of a pain. An auto-update option would help a lot.

Also, you might want to take the company name out of your build properties unless you don't mind people seeing where you work. The reason I mention this is that it burned me in the past...

It will now update the weapon stats each time you make a change instead of having to click save.

Removed the assembly build information, I had forgotten I started the solution at the office, thank you for pointing it out.

[Haplo]

Real nice tool....thanks!

Trelessia

[Glenalth]

Have you seen this?

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/

[Gimpster]

Have you seen this?

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/
That's buggy, and also doesn't handle all DDO weapon effects, such as Seeker.

[~True_Knight]

I tried your tool. But when I ran it, there was no text next to the dialog boxes on the right. Is there supposed to be? There are a few drop down boxes with numbers in them, but I don't know what they are for. It looks like there should be some text to the left of these boxes...but it's not showing up.

:(

[jjflanigan]

Have you seen this?

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/

I saw that a loooong time ago and liked the way it created the graph, however, I felt it was a bit too complex for the average person who just wants to know if weapon X is better than weapon Y in situation Z. I wanted to created something simple that would provide fast and accurate data to help people choose between various weapons that they are considering.

[jjflanigan]

I tried your tool. But when I ran it, there was no text next to the dialog boxes on the right. Is there supposed to be? There are a few drop down boxes with numbers in them, but I don't know what they are for. It looks like there should be some text to the left of these boxes...but it's not showing up.

:(

Are you getting the black(ish) background with the gold border for the dialog boxes with the weapon building options? If not, could you either screenshot it or describe for me how it looks and I'll see what's going on.

This is how it should look:

http://perfectweb.org/images/ddo/weapon_data.jpg

[jjflanigan]

Added in the seeker suffixes

[marKram]

Is the Power Attack stance really calculated properly? Seems to do more damage on average against higher AC? Something seems wrong...

[jjflanigan]

Is the Power Attack stance really calculated properly? Seems to do more damage on average against higher AC? Something seems wrong...

Ack, something I changed to handle the seeker logic dorked up, one sec.

[The_Cataclysm]

Are you going to add a way to properly calculate the damage of named weapons that do not follow the exact rules of their weapon type (Silver Bow, Sword of Shadows, etc.)?

[jjflanigan]

Are you going to add a way to properly calculate the damage of named weapons that do not follow the exact rules of their weapon type (Silver Bow, Sword of Shadows, etc.)?

I definitely plan to add in the named item effects that don't follow the standard prefix / suffix rules. I just want to make sure I get it cleaned up and functional before I start with the nicety tweaks. I don't have any of the named ones, so I'll have to use the gamebanshee database to look them up, but if you have some specific effects you want added, just PM me with what they do and I can put them into the XML data files.

[jjflanigan]

Is the Power Attack stance really calculated properly? Seems to do more damage on average against higher AC? Something seems wrong...

Fixed -- I forgot to clean my optics!

[The_Cataclysm]

I definitely plan to add in the named item effects that don't follow the standard prefix / suffix rules. I just want to make sure I get it cleaned up and functional before I start with the nicety tweaks. I don't have any of the named ones, so I'll have to use the gamebanshee database to look them up, but if you have some specific effects you want added, just PM me with what they do and I can put them into the XML data files.

I'm talking about the fact that base damage, crit range, crit mult are increased on some named weapons. Like the Shining Crescent is a 2 handed sickle that has a base damage of 2d6.

[jjflanigan]

I'm talking about the fact that base damage, crit range, crit mult are increased on some named weapons. Like the Shining Crescent is a 2 handed sickle that has a base damage of 2d6.

ooooooh, gotcha. Sorry, like I said, I don't have any of the "special" named items like that. But yes, weapons are just as easy to add as effects so I'll look up the stats for them when I'm able to get to a site that has them listed and add them in. The weaponData.xml is set up to be able to easily add new weapons

<weapon>
<name>Maul</name>
<numDice>1</numDice>
<sizeDice>10</sizeDice>
<critChance>1</critChance>
<critMultiplier>2</critMultiplier>
<classification>Two Handed</classification>
</weapon>

Is the format in the file. The fields are fairly self-explanatory with the possible exception of crit chance. critChance is the number of numbers on the 20 sided die that will result in a crit (i.e. 20 is 1, 19 -20 is 2, etc).

[Raithe]

Nice interface. This program doesn't work though.

A +5 rapier is eventually going to outdamage a +2 shocking burst rapier (for a while, at least) as the AC of the mob goes up. At one particular mob AC the +5 will be hitting 3 times more often than the +2 (with criticals being an even wider contrast). According to the program's chart the +2 elemental burst outperforms the +5 at all mob ACs.

I don't think the program accounts for weapon finesse, either.

[jjflanigan]

Nice interface. This program doesn't work though.

A +5 rapier is eventually going to outdamage a +2 shocking burst rapier (for a while, at least) as the AC of the mob goes up. At one particular mob AC the +5 will be hitting 3 times more often than the +2 (with criticals being an even wider contrast). According to the program's chart the +2 elemental burst outperforms the +5 at all mob ACs.

I don't think the program accounts for weapon finesse, either.

I have not added weapon finesse either, I'll make that a toggle like Bow Strength.

You are 100% correct regarding the weapons. When I converted things to handle seeker, I fat fingered and left off the addition of the weapon bonus to the to-hit calculation. So you were getting the calculation with the +5 damage, but not the +5 to hit. It's all fixed now with the version I just uploaded

(this is what happens when I beta test live, sorry )

[kafromet]

Hey thanks jjflanigan. Very cool of you to take the time to put something like this together for the community.

If I was in the cupcake business I'd totaly give you one for this. :D

[kafromet]

Just to be sure I am using this correctly. I am trying to compare the effects of using Power Attack vs. not using Power Attack with my main weapon. So I punch in my BaB and Str Bonus across the top, then all my particulars for the weapon exactly the same on the right, with only Power Attack vs. None for the Combat stance different. That generates this result:

http://www.pbase.com/image/74009350

So if I used it right and am reading right I'll generate higher average damage by turning power attack off when the target's AC is between 27 and 42, is that correct?

Thanks!

[jjflanigan]

Just to be sure I am using this correctly. I am trying to compare the effects of using Power Attack vs. not using Power Attack with my main weapon. So I punch in my BaB and Str Bonus across the top, then all my particulars for the weapon exactly the same on the right, with only Power Attack vs. None for the Combat stance different. That generates this result:

http://www.pbase.com/image/74009350

So if I used it right and am reading right I'll generate higher average damage by turning power attack off when the target's AC is between 27 and 42, is that correct?

Thanks!

Exactly correct. With power attack on, you're going to have a steeper decline in your damage due to the to-hit penalty, so they'll always be a middle area where you are better off (on average) turning power attack off.

[Chardros]

One of us is doing the math wrong somewhere, and I'm not saying it's you. Could you check my figures if you get a chance. I'm not actually at my gaming machine, so I could be missing something important.


BAB: 12
STR Bonus: 11
Favored DAM: 2 (Greater Weapon Spec)
Favored Hit: 2 (Greater Weapon Focus)
Improved Critial
Power Attack
+5 Falchion


I get a hitroll of:
+12 BAB
+11 STR
+2 Fav Hitroll
+5 + on the weapon
-5 Pwr Attack
-------------
25

For average (non critical) damage I get:
+10 Weapon (2d4) + 5
+2 Favored Damage
+10 Power Attack
+16 Str Bonus (11 * 1.5 truncated)
-----------------------
38

Assume AC 20 on creature I'm fighting, so I'm only checking the first point on the graph.

I'll hit on anything but a 1, and I'll confirm a crit on anything but a 1


Critical Breakdown:
Crit on 15-20 and confirm on anything but a 1
Confirm roll Avg Damage
1 38
2-20 76

(38 + 19 * 76)/20 = 74.1

So my averages for each roll to hit are:
My Roll Avg Damage
1 0
2-14 38
15-20 74.1

(13 * 38 + 6 * 74.1)/20 = 46.93


Using that scenario, the program shows me an average of about 40 with an AC of 20, but I get an average of 46.93. What am I missing?

[jjflanigan]

It sounds like you have an older version of the application before I fixed the issue with the weapon bonus adding in. I just ran the exact numbers you gave and for any AC under 26 I get an average damage, with power attack, of 46.93.

Try downloading it again (the current version is 1.8). You should see a toggle on the main page for "Weapon Finesse"


Side note: Added in weapon weight classes and the weapon finesse feat toggle.

[Raithe]

Looks like most of the kinks are worked out. Pretty cool program, you can use it to evaluate feat/enhancement choices as well as comparing 2 different weapons.

[~True_Knight]

Are you getting the black(ish) background with the gold border for the dialog boxes with the weapon building options? If not, could you either screenshot it or describe for me how it looks and I'll see what's going on.

This is how it should look:

http://perfectweb.org/images/ddo/weapon_data.jpg

I am getting that box...but all the white text is gone! hmmmm :confused:

[jjflanigan]

I am getting that box...but all the white text is gone! hmmmm :confused:

Just put up version 1.8.5 for you -- I adjusted the color used for the text, see if that helps, please.

[Chardros]

It sounds like you have an older version of the application before I fixed the issue with the weapon bonus adding in. I just ran the exact numbers you gave and for any AC under 26 I get an average damage, with power attack, of 46.93.

Try downloading it again (the current version is 1.8). You should see a toggle on the main page for "Weapon Finesse"


Side note: Added in weapon weight classes and the weapon finesse feat toggle.

wow, nice job man.

[jjflanigan]

New Version 1.9:

Added in the 3 bane suffixes
Added in special case named items


Thanks to The Cataclysm for the information on the special named items

[Allasar]

Definitely going to be useful (but probably needs a few more enhancements :)).

Couple of suggestions:

1. Add a Clear button to reset the app.
2. I think it would be very helpful to add a target alignment type combo box. This would allow the user to more quickly evaluate weapon options.
3. Add Hasted option, add other feat choices (weapon focus, spec, etc.)

There is also a bug if you type in the BAB and STR bonus values, rather than select from the combo options, you get invalid results.

Thanks for doing the work though!

[jjflanigan]

Definitely going to be useful (but probably needs a few more enhancements :)).

Couple of suggestions:

1. Add a Clear button to reset the app.
2. I think it would be very helpful to add a target alignment type combo box. This would allow the user to more quickly evaluate weapon options.
3. Add Hasted option, add other feat choices (weapon focus, spec, etc.)

There is also a bug if you type in the BAB and STR bonus values, rather than select from the combo options, you get invalid results.

Thanks for doing the work though!

Version 1.9.5:

Added a reset button to clear out all form changes
Updated drop downs to allow typed in data for numerical fields


For #3, that's what the miscellaneous to hit and damage items are for each weapon. If you are creating a weapon and mouse over those fields there should be a tooltip display to explain that they are for adding in the bonuses from weapon specialization and focus. Also, for haste, the only effect that would have on the chart is to give a bonus of +1 to hit. Being hasted won't change the data displayed in any other way since I'm not displaying DPS, but average damage per swing.

I'm not sure what you mean with #2. To compare how a weapon would work versus a mob of the alignment that takes the damage versus otherwise, you can just remove the prefix / suffix that is tied to the alignment and that will show the base. If you mean something else or had a specific comparison in mind, let me know and I'll see if I can accomodate it.

Thank you for the feedback.

[jjflanigan]

Version 1.10:

Added in 3 new fields (with tooltips)
Start AC
AC Increment
AC Count

These will allow you to customize the AC values used to generate the graph.

[Chardros]

Hey Man,

I really love this program. I discovered something last night (or maybe the day before) that will affect your numbers. You can confirm a critical, even if you roll a 1.

Confirmed Crit on roll of 1 (http://exodus.realcoders.com/images/ddo/ConfirmedCrit.jpg)

I don't know if it's a bug or working as intended, but it will affect your numbers.

[jjflanigan]

Hey Man,

I really love this program. I discovered something last night (or maybe the day before) that will affect your numbers. You can confirm a critical, even if you roll a 1.

Confirmed Crit on roll of 1 (http://exodus.realcoders.com/images/ddo/ConfirmedCrit.jpg)

I don't know if it's a bug or working as intended, but it will affect your numbers.

Thank you for that. Luckily it just required me changing one number from a 19 to a 20.

It's updated now with version 1.11

[Chardros]

It's updated now with version 1.11

I just grabbed version 1.11 and I get an error message (http://exodus.realcoders.com/images/ddo/ErrorMessage.jpg) when running it. Does it need to be unzipped to a specific location?

[Poobah]

I just grabbed version 1.11 and I get an error message (http://exodus.realcoders.com/images/ddo/ErrorMessage.jpg) when running it. Does it need to be unzipped to a specific location?

I am getting same error...

[jjflanigan]

Sorry about that -- I somehow mixed up the zip file and had an old version of the xml data file in there. I've corrected it on the server now and it should be working using the link from the first post.

*EDIT*

Please note that I had to adjust the name of the file, my webserver is doing something very stupid with caching the file for some reason.

[Chardros]

Sorry about that -- I somehow mixed up the zip file and had an old version of the xml data file in there. I've corrected it on the server now and it should be working using the link from the first post.

*EDIT*

Please note that I had to adjust the name of the file, my webserver is doing something very stupid with caching the file for some reason.

Works great now. Thanks.

[Dielzen]

More than 2 weapons (4 at most, 3 prolly sufficient) would be handy, also an option for MOB DR on the main form would be VERY useful, as that makes a big impact.

Oh, on WPN 2, a "copy WPN 1" button would speed things up some in many comparisons.

[Atisha]

ooooooh, gotcha. Sorry, like I said, I don't have any of the "special" named items like that. But yes, weapons are just as easy to add as effects so I'll look up the stats for them when I'm able to get to a site that has them listed and add them in. The weaponData.xml is set up to be able to easily add new weapons

<weapon>
<name>Maul</name>
<numDice>1</numDice>
<sizeDice>10</sizeDice>
<critChance>1</critChance>
<critMultiplier>2</critMultiplier>
<classification>Two Handed</classification>
</weapon>

Is the format in the file. The fields are fairly self-explanatory with the possible exception of crit chance. critChance is the number of numbers on the 20 sided die that will result in a crit (i.e. 20 is 1, 19 -20 is 2, etc).


Just noticed the critMultiplier in your Maul example. That'll need changing when Module 4 is released per this (http://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94651) thread.

"NEW – All existing Mauls and all Mauls created in the future will have a x3 critical hit multiplier."

:)

[jjflanigan]

Added in an option to be able to compare up to 4 weapons

Added in a drop down to select your targets DR amount

Added in a weapon flag to "Bypass DR"

Added the ability to click the weapon forms and drag them around

Trying to come up with a decent way to provide an option to copy the weapon data down. Copying it isn't a problem...figuring out where to put a button / option to copy is :D

[Invalid_6]

This is a great tool, and I'd like to make a completely selfish request.

You were able to quickly convert your enhancement program to a webpage. Do you think you could do that here? I'm not able to run exe's from my work and can't use your software from anywhere but home. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one either.

Just a thought. If it's too much work, don't bother. :)

[Dielzen]

Hitting the "Reset" button has no apparent effect. And...egads, don't double-click a weapon box LOL

After this version I'd have to say that a copy feature would prolly be a waste of effort, since it's not readily apparent which one is wpn1, wpn2, etc.

Oh, and for Elemental and Elemental Burst, you might want to add in (Doubled) versions, for example; Icy Burst is doubled against a Fire Elemental

[Dielzen]

Got this earlier, only once and it worked fine when choosing continue, but thought I'd mention it...


See the end of this message for details on invoking
just-in-time (JIT) debugging instead of this dialog box.

************** Exception Text **************
System.ArgumentOutOfRangeException: Index was out of range. Must be non-negative and less than the size of the collection.
Parameter name: index
at System.Collections.ArrayList.get_Item(Int32 index)
at Weapon_Compare.Form1.PBLineChart_MouseMove(Object sender, MouseEventArgs e)
at System.Windows.Forms.Control.OnMouseMove(MouseEven tArgs e)
at System.Windows.Forms.Control.WmMouseMove(Message& m)
at System.Windows.Forms.Control.WndProc(Message& m)
at System.Windows.Forms.Control.ControlNativeWindow.O nMessage(Message& m)
at System.Windows.Forms.Control.ControlNativeWindow.W ndProc(Message& m)
at System.Windows.Forms.NativeWindow.Callback(IntPtr hWnd, Int32 msg, IntPtr wparam, IntPtr lparam)


************** Loaded Assemblies **************
mscorlib
Assembly Version: 2.0.0.0
Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.42 (RTM.050727-4200)
CodeBase: file:///C:/WINDOWS/Microsoft.NET/Framework/v2.0.50727/mscorlib.dll
----------------------------------------
Weapon Compare
Assembly Version: 1.13.0.0
Win32 Version: 1.13.0.0
CodeBase: file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Owner/My%20Documents/Software%20Install%20DLs/WeaponCompare/Weapon%20Compare.exe
----------------------------------------
System.Windows.Forms
Assembly Version: 2.0.0.0
Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.42 (RTM.050727-4200)
CodeBase: file:///C:/WINDOWS/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System.Windows.Forms/2.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.Windows.Forms.dll
----------------------------------------
System
Assembly Version: 2.0.0.0
Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.42 (RTM.050727-4200)
CodeBase: file:///C:/WINDOWS/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System/2.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.dll
----------------------------------------
System.Drawing
Assembly Version: 2.0.0.0
Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.42 (RTM.050727-4200)
CodeBase: file:///C:/WINDOWS/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System.Drawing/2.0.0.0__b03f5f7f11d50a3a/System.Drawing.dll
----------------------------------------
System.Xml
Assembly Version: 2.0.0.0
Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.42 (RTM.050727-4200)
CodeBase: file:///C:/WINDOWS/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System.Xml/2.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.Xml.dll
----------------------------------------

************** JIT Debugging **************
To enable just-in-time (JIT) debugging, the .config file for this
application or computer (machine.config) must have the
jitDebugging value set in the system.windows.forms section.
The application must also be compiled with debugging
enabled.

For example:

<configuration>
<system.windows.forms jitDebugging="true" />
</configuration>

When JIT debugging is enabled, any unhandled exception
will be sent to the JIT debugger registered on the computer
rather than be handled by this dialog box.

[jjflanigan]

Fixed issue with double clicking a weapon data window

Fixed reset button not working

Fixed array exception error for tooltips

Added window numbering to show which weapon window is which

[Dielzen]

**** you're quick...you prolly missed my edit regarding elemental doubling since I did it not long before your update post.

/bow

[jjflanigan]

**** you're quick...you prolly missed my edit regarding elemental doubling since I did it not long before your update post.

/bow

Yeah, sorry, did not see the edit. I'll see about getting that added in

[DKerrigan]

JJ, ur teh awesomz!:D

[broncosfan78]

i downloaded the file, and i'm getting an error opening the program,

it says:To run this application, you must first install one of the following versions of the .Net Framework: v2.0.50727

Dont know what that means.

[Tanka]

You need to have the Microsoft .Net package installed to use it.

Go to Microsoft's website and search for a download there.

[binnsr]

that's a nice little tool, jj ..

Just a couple of thoughts after running a few comparisons this morning..

1) seeker is really a prefix (my twf pally uses a +1 seeker(+4) shortsword of pure good in his offhand right now)

2) On the same vein, any chance that you could make it so that we can do TWF comparisons? Having a seeker or backstabbing weapon in the offhand really changes hit/damage values for a weapon pairing.

[JayDubya]

Fixed -- I forgot to clean my optics!

Boy you'll never get Dr. Hathaway to give you that recommendation now.

*tsk tsk*

[brshelton]

Do you have any idea how long I have looked for one of these. Thank you so much youre awesome!

[Ishturi]

Do you have any idea how long I have looked for one of these. Thank you so much youre awesome!

thread necromancy :eek:

sweet I will use this TYVM.

[jjflanigan]

Groovy, I'm glad some people still find this useful :)

[jjflanigan]

I use it quite abit, although it can be scewed if you're using two weapons - i.e. +seeker or +backstabbing in the offhand affects the primary hand's weapons..

*nod* I saw where you had requested that change back in April (right around the time I left the game). I'll take a look at it when I get a chance and see if I can set it up so you can set up TWF combos.

[binnsr]

Groovy, I'm glad some people still find this useful :)

I use it quite abit, although it can be scewed if you're using two weapons - i.e. +seeker or +backstabbing in the offhand affects the primary hand's weapons..

[binnsr]

cool .. since it was 5 months ago, I didn't know if you had missed it :D

[In_Like_Flynn]

It should be fairly bug free, but no guarantees. #2 in the Code of the Programmer. It comes right after #1: "Delivery will be on time unless it isn't."

[Charlemagne2]

Hey,

I love the program but I think it is inaccurate with reguards to crit ranges and damage.

To test it simply compare the carniflex 17-20 crit 3x crit +2 to hit with a greataxe +2 with expanded crit range.

They come up as the same, but the imp crit range on a normal greataxe is 19-20 vs 17-20 on the carniflex

[Charlemagne2]

On a side note it just defies my small brain pan that as ac goes up the damage dealt becomes almost identical. I premise this on the assumption that as the number of rolls that hit befcome higher at some point you must crit to hit-so how can they do the same damage when u are adding 3d6-10 on top on crits.

Shouldnt they lines show this?

please straiten me out!

put in a high crit range weapon especially the kopesh and see if it makes sense what I am saying.

[jjflanigan]

Hey,

I love the program but I think it is inaccurate with reguards to crit ranges and damage.

To test it simply compare the carniflex 17-20 crit 3x crit +2 to hit with a greataxe +2 with expanded crit range.

They come up as the same, but the imp crit range on a normal greataxe is 19-20 vs 17-20 on the carniflex

I did not code in the weapon effect "Keen" so in order to compare the weapons, you'll need to toggle "Expanded Crit Range" for Carnifex as well as the Great Axe otherwise the Carnifex only calculates as a 19-20 crit range.

[Mad_Bombardier]

jj, just a piddly pet peeve note if your making any changes with the Weapon Tool:

Carnifex is the Great Axe from Delera's (means 'executioner' in Latin).
Carniflex sounds like some sort of Yoga/Pilates done whilst consuming raw meat (or possibly the stretch and big yawn from a lion after his meal). :D

[jjflanigan]

On a side note it just defies my small brain pan that as ac goes up the damage dealt becomes almost identical. I premise this on the assumption that as the number of rolls that hit befcome higher at some point you must crit to hit-so how can they do the same damage when u are adding 3d6-10 on top on crits.

Shouldnt they lines show this?

please straiten me out!

put in a high crit range weapon especially the kopesh and see if it makes sense what I am saying.

Slightly inaccurate in how you phrased that (not sure if I'm just misunderstanding you though). At no point do you have to crit to hit. At some point you need a natural 20 to hit. Bear in mind that rolling a natural 20 is not a crit, it is just an automatic hit (it is also a critical threat). In order to actually crit, you have to confirm the hit with a second, unseen, d20 roll against the targets AC again. If this second confirmation roll is a hit as well, then you get the crit. Otherwise you will just get your weapon's base damage.

From the d20srd since it is more clear than I am:



When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target’s Armor Class, and you have scored a threat. The hit might be a critical hit (or "crit"). To find out if it’s a critical hit, you immediately make a critical roll—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the critical roll also results in a hit against the target’s AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit. It doesn’t need to come up 20 again.) If the critical roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit.

[jjflanigan]

jj, just a piddly pet peeve note if your making any changes with the Weapon Tool:

Carnifex is the Great Axe from Delera's (means 'executioner' in Latin).
Carniflex sounds like some sort of Yoga/Pilates done whilst consuming raw meat (or possibly the stretch and big yawn from a lion after his meal). :D

Just noticed that myself as I was trying to find "Carnifex" in my XML data, lol.

I'll fix that and included it in the version once I can get the logic for creating TWF "weapon pairs" in the tool.

[Charlemagne2]

Slightly inaccurate in how you phrased that (not sure if I'm just misunderstanding you though). At no point do you have to crit to hit. At some point you need a natural 20 to hit. Bear in mind that rolling a natural 20 is not a crit, it is just an automatic hit (it is also a critical threat). In order to actually crit, you have to confirm the hit with a second, unseen, d20 roll against the targets AC again. If this second confirmation roll is a hit as well, then you get the crit. Otherwise you will just get your weapon's base damage.

From the d20srd since it is more clear than I am:

Lets keep this simple as the AC goes up the roll needed to hit is equal to the chance to crit. So understanding that you wont confirm on all of them is a given. Basically Im saying that it seems counter intuitive when every roll gets you a possible crit the damage should be the same?

So yes I understand the mechanics of a crit, but no i dont understand why the damage would be equal for a burst vs standard element.

[jjflanigan]

Lets keep this simple as the AC goes up the roll needed to hit is equal to the chance to crit. So understanding that you wont confirm on all of them is a given. Basically Im saying that it seems counter intuitive when every roll gets you a possible crit the damage should be the same?

So yes I understand the mechanics of a crit, but no i dont understand why the damage would be equal for a burst vs standard element.

because I was under the impression that on the confirm roll a 20 is not an automatic hit ( and a 1 is not an automatic failure) -- so when you are at a point where you need > 20 to hit, you will never crit.

[Jebin]

because I was under the impression that on the confirm roll a 20 is not an automatic hit ( and a 1 is not an automatic failure) -- so when you are at a point where you need > 20 to hit, you will never crit.

Actually, the rules as writen say a 20 to confirm a crit is a hit, while a 1 is a miss.

Here's the links and I'll just quote the important parts:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#criticalHits

"To find out if it’s a critical hit, you immediately make a critical roll—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made." (My emphasis)

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#attackRoll

"A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on an attack roll is always a miss. A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit." (Again, my emphasis)

Charlemagne, I'll give explaining why a burst weapon levels out with the normal weapon a try.

Two weapons we'll use: a +1 Flaming Shortsword and a +1 Flaming Burst Shortsword. First of all, the base damage for both of these weapons without critical hits are identical. 2d6+1, or an average of 8. The critical damage for the Flaming Shortsword will be 3d6+2 or an average of 12.5. The critical damage for the Flaming Burst Shortsword will be 3d6+2+1d10 or an average of 18.

Then we add an opponent who has a really high AC and requires you to roll a 20 to hit this opponent. So you roll a 20 and threaten a critical. Only 5% of those threatened critcals will be confirmed by rolling a second 20, while the other 95% will be hits that deal normal damage.

+1 Flaming Shortsword = 95% * 8 + 5% * 12.5 = 8.225

+1 Flaming Burst Shortsword = 95% * 8 + 5% * 18 = 8.5

As you can see, the difference is just over a quarter of a point, which is why you see them coming together at the end of the graph.

Hope that explained it well enough.

[jjflanigan]

Ahh -- that's right -- and I was mistaken -- that's actually how I do it in the code as well



if (chanceToHit <= 1)
{
chanceToHit = 0;
chanceToCrit = 1;
}
else
{
chanceToCrit = chanceToHit;
chanceToHit = 0;
}


Was trying to figure out why my numbers were off from yours, til I noticed that you said a shortsword was 2d6 instead of 1d6, heh.

[jjflanigan]

Here's an example using the exact numbers from my program (if something stands out as being wrong, please feel free to let me know).

Comparing -- Elemental Short Sword vs Elemental Burst Short Sword

Chance for a normal hit -- 0%
Chance for a confirmed critical -- 0.25% (roll a 20, then roll a 20 again)
Chance for a non-confirmed critical -- 4.75% (roll a 20, then roll any other number)

Average Damage for the elemental short sword on a normal hit is -- 3.5 (normal) + 3.5 (elemental)
Average Damage for the elemental short sword on a critical hit is -- 7 (normal) + 3.5 (elemental)

Over the span of 100 attacks, you'll do 0.35875 damage per swing.
10.5 * 0.25 = 2.625
7 * 4.75 = 33.25
28.5 + 5 = 35.875 / 100 == 0.35875 average damage per swing

Average Damage for the elemental burst short sword on a normal hit is -- 3.5 (normal) + 3.5 (elemental)
Average Damage for the elemental short burst sword on a critical hit is -- 7 (normal) + 8.5 (elemental)

Over the span of 100 attacks, you'll do 0.37125 damage per swing.
15.5 * 0.25 = 3.875
7 * 4.75 = 33.25
28.5 + 5 = 37.125 / 100 == 0.37125 average damage per swing

[Jebin]

Was trying to figure out why my numbers were off from yours, til I noticed that you said a shortsword was 2d6 instead of 1d6, heh.

Yes, I lumped the elemental and weapon damage together for expedience.

The numbers I gave were per hit, to convert them to a per swing value is simple enough.

+1 Flaming Shortsword = 8.225 per hit, with a 5% chance to hit = 8.225 * 5% = 0.41125

+1 Flaming Burst Shortsword = 8.5 per hit, with a 5% chance to hit = 8.5 * 5% = 0.425

Now, I'm looking at this in your program (Which looks nice by the way) and I noticed we aren't getting the same values.

Cutting it back as far as I could, I choose a shortsword with 0 bonus, 0 strength bonus ect. No extra damage at all.

Your program gave a value of 0.1575 average damage per hit (This should be per swing I believe) when a roll of 20 is required to hit.

A shortsword has 1d6 damage, averaged that is 3.5, and on a x2 critical it is 7. When a roll of 20 is required, you have a 0.25% chance to crit for 7, and a 4.75% chance to hit for a normal 3.5. (4.75% + 0.25% = the 5% chance to roll a 20 and actually hit)

3.5 * 0.0475 + 7 * 0.0025 = 0.18375 average damage per swing.

Ignoring criticals, it would be 3.5 * 0.05 = 0.175 average damage per swing.


0.3075 is the value given by the program for an Elemental Shortsword by itself with no extra damage when a 20 is required to hit. That's lower than the 0.35875 calculation you've shown in your last post. Your last post is consistent with my math for an elemental shortsword without the required +1 Enhancement.

I'm not sure if I'm just overlooking a setting but I've double checked my math and it appears the program is calculating too low.

[jjflanigan]

Yes, I lumped the elemental and weapon damage together for expedience.

The numbers I gave were per hit, to convert them to a per swing value is simple enough.

+1 Flaming Shortsword = 8.225 per hit, with a 5% chance to hit = 8.225 * 5% = 0.41125

+1 Flaming Burst Shortsword = 8.5 per hit, with a 5% chance to hit = 8.5 * 5% = 0.425

Now, I'm looking at this in your program (Which looks nice by the way) and I noticed we aren't getting the same values.

Cutting it back as far as I could, I choose a shortsword with 0 bonus, 0 strength bonus ect. No extra damage at all.

Your program gave a value of 0.1575 average damage per hit (This should be per swing I believe) when a roll of 20 is required to hit.

A shortsword has 1d6 damage, averaged that is 3.5, and on a x2 critical it is 7. When a roll of 20 is required, you have a 0.25% chance to crit for 7, and a 4.75% chance to hit for a normal 3.5. (4.75% + 0.25% = the 5% chance to roll a 20 and actually hit)

3.5 * 0.0475 + 7 * 0.0025 = 0.18375 average damage per swing.

Ignoring criticals, it would be 3.5 * 0.05 = 0.175 average damage per swing.


0.3075 is the value given by the program for an Elemental Shortsword by itself with no extra damage when a 20 is required to hit. That's lower than the 0.35875 calculation you've shown in your last post. Your last post is consistent with my math for an elemental shortsword without the required +1 Enhancement.

I'm not sure if I'm just overlooking a setting but I've double checked my math and it appears the program is calculating too low.

You are 100% correct. The math shown in my above post is after I adjusted the program. For some unknown reason, I set the average damage values (and the prefix / suffix damage bonus values) to be integers instead of decimal values. This was causing it to calculate the average damage of a 1d6 weapon as 3 instead of 3.5.

Also, you are correct on the wording. As I stated in my above post, the program calculates the average damage per SWING, not per hit. I'm going to adjust the verbiage to reflect that (and also modify it to include the average damage per hit / crit).

I'll have a new version with these corrections up today (hopefully with the TWF changes as well, still having a slight issue with that). Once that version is up, the math will calculate as it is displayed in my post above and should be much more accurate since the rounding errors will be removed.

After the corrections were made a +1 elemental short sword is averaging to 0.41125 per swing once you need a 20+ to hit and a +1 elemental burst short sword is averaging to 0.42375 at that point.

[Charlemagne2]

You are 100% correct. The math shown in my above post is after I adjusted the program. For some unknown reason, I set the average damage values (and the prefix / suffix damage bonus values) to be integers instead of decimal values. This was causing it to calculate the average damage of a 1d6 weapon as 3 instead of 3.5.

Also, you are correct on the wording. As I stated in my above post, the program calculates the average damage per SWING, not per hit. I'm going to adjust the verbiage to reflect that (and also modify it to include the average damage per hit / crit).

I'll have a new version with these corrections up today (hopefully with the TWF changes as well, still having a slight issue with that). Once that version is up, the math will calculate as it is displayed in my post above and should be much more accurate since the rounding errors will be removed.

After the corrections were made a +1 elemental short sword is averaging to 0.41125 per swing once you need a 20+ to hit and a +1 elemental burst short sword is averaging to 0.42375 at that point.

Thanks for helping me see the light!

[jjflanigan]

New version : 1.20
Corrected Rounding Issue
Corrected wording on tooltips
Added in the ability to have offhand weapons
Added in toggle for having the TWF skill
Moved "Seeker" to a prefix

Currently only Seeker and Backstabbing affect the other weapon when you are dual wielding. I'm not sure what other effects would work to affect both weapons when dual wielding, so any information about that would be helpful.

[Jebin]

After the corrections were made a +1 elemental short sword is averaging to 0.41125 per swing once you need a 20+ to hit and a +1 elemental burst short sword is averaging to 0.42375 at that point.

I noticed your burst average of 0.42375 is a bit lower than the average I calculated of 0.425 in my last post. The only difference in the program between this and the 0.41125 we both calculate for a plain +1 elemental shortsword is the burst multiplier. So I double checked my numbers and worked your number backwards.

Your number divided by 5% comes up as 8.475 which is the average damage per hit. Since the 'burst' special doesn't affect normal damage, I subracted that out. 95% of the time you hit for 2d6+1, or 8 damage, so 95% * 8 = 7.6

8.475 - 7.6 = 0.875 This damage comes from the critical, which only happens 5% of the time, so dividing it by 5% will come up with the average for a critical, 17.5. This is where the problem is coming from I believe.

A +1 Flaming Burst Shortsword with a critical hit will do 2d6+2 piercing damage and 1d6 + 1d10 fire damage. This averages to 9 piercing and 3.5 + 5.5 or 9 fire damage, for a total average of 18 on a critical hit.

Since the critical values of the +1 Elemental values are matching mine, I'm going to guess your average for the extra 1d10 critical damage given by the burst weapon is possibly rounding improperly still, using a 5 instead of a 5.5.

Looking back a few posts, I noticed this now:


Average Damage for the elemental short burst sword on a critical hit is -- 7 (normal) + 8.5 (elemental)

Elemental would be the 1d6 + 1d10, or 3.5 + 5.5 for an average of 9, so that must be where the difference is coming from.

Don't mind me if I come off sounding like a stickler, it comes naturally ;)

[jjflanigan]

Corrected the crit bonus effect from weapon prefixes and suffixes to be a double instead of an int -- corrects a rounding issue

Version 1.22

[jjflanigan]

Version 1.25

It was brought to my attention that the BaB dropdown only went up to 12.

[Dragon.Star]

Very nice tool.

The Base Attack Bonus goes to +14 now also.

Also is their a way to compare more than 4 weapons?

[greenelephant]

Nice tool man. Keep up the good work.

[jjflanigan]

Also is their a way to compare more than 4 weapons?

The program itself can handle a, theoretically, infinite amount of weapons. The problem comes in getting a layout where you can adjust the settings for all the various weapons that you want to compare.

I was toying with the idea of just having a single, tabbed, pane for the weapons, but then you have to flip through the tabs to be able to look at what each weapon is and so forth.

I've not come up with a decent layout to allow entering the information for many more weapons on the screen.

[binnsr]

I've not come up with a decent layout to allow entering the information for many more weapons on the screen.
Here's a thought .. currently, weapons 1 and 2 are to the right of the graph window, and 3/4 are below it. Why not just add windows below 3/4 for each pair that you add?

If possible, you could also make it scroll if it grows outside the boundaries of the current resolution - although I don't know if that's possible.



One other thing - I'm still getting the background not redrawing correctly when tabbing between this and the game (this and things like firefox don't affect it though) - for reference, I'm running a GF7800gtx on the forceware 162.18 drivers) on an Asus A8N32-SLI motherboard / opteron 170@2.5ghz combo.

[Psyk0sisS]

Very cool tool, thanks for the dedication :).

[Drak]

Very nice tool, thanks for your effort.

A suggestion, "barb crit rage I" and "barb crit rage II" , the extra 1 or 2 chances to crit skews the data a little for barbs. It would be great if you can work this in.

Also incorperating the possability of having seeker on another non weapon slot, or offhanded, such as the bloodstone (+6 seeker trinket) would be nice.

[Aeneas]

please add a clicky box for "bloodstone". Would skew rapiers over shortswords for me just a tad and may help me make some crucial decisions.

Also, great tool, i like it a lot.

[jjflanigan]

Here's a thought .. currently, weapons 1 and 2 are to the right of the graph window, and 3/4 are below it. Why not just add windows below 3/4 for each pair that you add?

If possible, you could also make it scroll if it grows outside the boundaries of the current resolution - although I don't know if that's possible.



One other thing - I'm still getting the background not redrawing correctly when tabbing between this and the game (this and things like firefox don't affect it though) - for reference, I'm running a GF7800gtx on the forceware 162.18 drivers) on an Asus A8N32-SLI motherboard / opteron 170@2.5ghz combo.

Are you running in fullscreen or windowed mode for the game? ( I assume fullscreen, but want to make sure)

As for the critical rage / bloodstone requests -- I'll add in some options to allow for drop down selections of threat range modifiers and confirmation bonuses. That way it's not hardcoded to how the game is now and will be easy to expand as new things are added and old things are changed. Would these be things you would all like on a per weapon basis (i.e. so you can compare a shortsword with the bloodstone in use to one without) or on a global level (so that it will apply to all weapon data being generated)? Just trying to figure out where I can fit in the drop downs without cluttering stuff up to terribly badly.

Also, there is a bug in the current version due to a lack of knowledge on my part. I was unaware that seeker had been changed to add to critical damage as well as the confirmation bonus. Currently the seeker prefix does not add any additional damage to critical hits.

[binnsr]

Are you running in fullscreen or windowed mode for the game? ( I assume fullscreen, but want to make sure)

Full Screen

[jjflanigan]

Version 1.30

Added Threat Bonus option with tooltip -- i.e. Barbarian Critical Rage
Added Misc. Confim Bonus option with tooltip -- i.e. Bloodstone
Added Misc. Crit Damage option with tooltip -- i.e. Bloodstone
Corrected Seeker to add to critical damage (pre-multiplier)
Worked on screen-refresh issue (hopefully resolved)

[binnsr]

No dice on the refresh issue .. It refreshes fine until I alt-tab into DDO (haven't tried it with any other games yet). After that, the weapon sub-boxes get all wonky and stop redrawing their backgrounds at all.. After a while, it looks like this (http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h311/eldamir/DDO/?action=view&current=weapon_compare.jpg)..
(http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h311/eldamir/DDO/?action=view&current=weapon_compare.jpg)

[jjflanigan]

No dice on the refresh issue .. It refreshes fine until I alt-tab into DDO (haven't tried it with any other games yet). After that, the weapon sub-boxes get all wonky and stop redrawing their backgrounds at all.. After a while, it looks like this (http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h311/eldamir/DDO/?action=view&current=weapon_compare.jpg)..
(http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h311/eldamir/DDO/?action=view&current=weapon_compare.jpg)

Alrighty -- 1.31, see if that clears it up, I'm using a different refresh method now

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Nice tool - I was using the web based one but having to artificially put in the bloodstone effect (even though there wasn't an accurate way of doing it really). Your tool seems to work with that better.

I found my holy burst axes were giving me less damage than I thought. Have to rethink some weapon sets.

Just checking - for greater bane weapons e.g. +2 holy dwarven axe of greater giant bane - do I put +2 in the weapon bonus or +6 (since it's +2+4)?

Garth

[jjflanigan]

Nice tool - I was using the web based one but having to artificially put in the bloodstone effect (even though there wasn't an accurate way of doing it really). Your tool seems to work with that better.

I found my holy burst axes were giving me less damage than I thought. Have to rethink some weapon sets.

Just checking - for greater bane weapons e.g. +2 holy dwarven axe of greater giant bane - do I put +2 in the weapon bonus or +6 (since it's +2+4)?

Garth

Just put it as a +2, the greater bane effect takes care of adding in its +4 on top of the weapon bonus.

[Ironik]

Hey nice tool. I just noticed that the maul never got changed from a x2 to a x3 on the crit multiplier. Easy enough change, of course.

Also, while I doubt it I'd be interested in helping you out if you're looking to really expand the program. I've done a lot of .net development using C# and ASP for web applications. That is, if you want help! :)

[Drak]

Thanks for the changes

An SOS with a bloodstone does equal damage as no bloodstone for enemy ac up to 34 ? (14bab 14strmod) this cannot be right.
Critting 18-20 for an extra 18 points, (+6 x3) This occurs with other weapon types also.

Also if you select +5 enhancement before selecting SOS it gives a different graph, which one is correct ?

[jjflanigan]

A slight problem,
A SOS with Bloodstone and barb crit rage II is outdamaged by SOS without them ?
think something isnt calculating right

Something isn't right somewhere -- I just Compared the items you listed and got the expected results (did it with a BAB of 1 and of 14 to make sure). Here's a SS of the results from the BaB of 14. You can see the Red line (with barb crit rage 2 and a bloodstone) is significantly higher than the blue line.

http://perfectweb.org/images/ddo/wc_09_04_2007.JPG

[GwenJynx]

Nice tool, It really simplified some things ive been rolling over in my head for abit.

However I did find a tiny bug, When you hit reset it doesnt set the seeker accuracy and damage back to 0.

[jjflanigan]

Version 1.32

Corrected error with reset not clearing the 3 new options

Corrected issue where selecting the 3 new options did not trigger a save of the weapon (This could cause issues where stats would not graph properly if you selected one of the new options as the last thing you changed)

Updated mauls to be x3 crit

If any of your issues still remain let me know, but this should resolve the ones of which I am aware.

[Drak]

That issue where a bloodstone gives the same damage as without one up to a certain ac is still present.

All i did was load the program, left all default settings, ie bastard sword, 0 enchanted bonus etc made BAB and str bonus 14, and drew chart.

this result is definately wrong.

p.s. that sos issue earlier, my bad, i got it going rightly too, somehow didnt save changes to my message when i deleted it all.

upon further investigation, it seems that the average crit dfamage remains the same with and with out the stone, this is quite impossible

[Coldin]

I remember the old version of the weapon compare tool wasn't applying seeker correctly. It was just giving the +x to confirm a crit, but not the +x damage with the crit. I changed that manually in the weapon stats file though. I haven't got around to seeing if this was fixed in the new version.

[jjflanigan]

That issue where a bloodstone gives the same damage as without one up to a certain ac is still present.

All i did was load the program, left all default settings, ie bastard sword, 0 enchanted bonus etc made BAB and str bonus 14, and drew chart.

this result is definately wrong.

p.s. that sos issue earlier, my bad, i got it going rightly too, somehow didnt save changes to my message when i deleted it all.

upon further investigation, it seems that the average crit dfamage remains the same with and with out the stone, this is quite impossible

I think I know the problem -- I split out the bloodstone effect to make it more scalable. You have to set both the Misc Confirm Bonus and the Misc Crit damage to 6 to emulate a bloodstone (seeker +6).

I corrected the issue on the seeker effect itself, but since there may be things that give a bonus to confirm without increasing crit damage, I opted to split them out.

[Drak]

got ya, thanks for the info

[jjflanigan]

got ya, thanks for the info

Does it make sense that it works that way? I'm not tied to how anything works in the application, so if something could be done to make it work "better" or just be more clear, I'm more than happy to make those changes.

Also, after setting both of those drop downs to +6 to emulate the bloodstone, does everything seem to be working properly?

[Xirxx]

First of all, I love the tool! Is there a way to save the settings or perhaps enter a "static" weapon to compare all the other weapons to?

Thanks!

[Drak]

Does it make sense that it works that way? I'm not tied to how anything works in the application, so if something could be done to make it work "better" or just be more clear, I'm more than happy to make those changes.

Also, after setting both of those drop downs to +6 to emulate the bloodstone, does everything seem to be working properly?

Yeah mate, works golden.
though if the confirm thing is for misc confirm bonus, I would have to put 14 in, and can only do 10. +8 fighter confirm enhancement +bloodstone

[jjflanigan]

Version 1.33

Expanded values on numerical dropdowns


--

Trying to come up with a useful way to save a default weapon, not ignoring that request, just haven't thought up a good way to go about handling it.

[Xirxx]

Version 1.33

Expanded values on numerical dropdowns


--

Trying to come up with a useful way to save a default weapon, not ignoring that request, just haven't thought up a good way to go about handling it.
Thanks man.... Regardless, I love the tool.. just being lazy :)

[binnsr]

ran into this unhandled exception today: (was comparing a +1 maul and +1 quarterstaff at1BAB and improved crit for kicks and grins)


See the end of this message for details on invoking
just-in-time (JIT) debugging instead of this dialog box.

************** Exception Text **************
System.ArgumentException: Parameter is not valid.
at System.Drawing.Bitmap..ctor(Int32 width, Int32 height, Graphics g)
at Weapon_Compare.Form1.drawOutLine()
at Weapon_Compare.Form1.button1_Click(Object sender, EventArgs e)
at System.Windows.Forms.Form.OnActivated(EventArgs e)
at System.Windows.Forms.Form.set_Active(Boolean value)
at System.Windows.Forms.Form.WmActivate(Message& m)
at System.Windows.Forms.Form.WndProc(Message& m)
at System.Windows.Forms.Control.ControlNativeWindow.O nMessage(Message& m)
at System.Windows.Forms.Control.ControlNativeWindow.W ndProc(Message& m)
at System.Windows.Forms.NativeWindow.Callback(IntPtr hWnd, Int32 msg, IntPtr wparam, IntPtr lparam)


************** Loaded Assemblies **************
mscorlib
Assembly Version: 2.0.0.0
Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.832 (QFE.050727-8300)
CodeBase: file:///C:/WINNT/Microsoft.NET/Framework/v2.0.50727/mscorlib.dll
----------------------------------------
Weapon Compare
Assembly Version: 1.33.0.0
Win32 Version: 1.33.0.0
CodeBase: file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/XXXXX/Desktop/DDO/WeaponCompare/Weapon%20Compare.exe
----------------------------------------
System.Windows.Forms
Assembly Version: 2.0.0.0
Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.832 (QFE.050727-8300)
CodeBase: file:///C:/WINNT/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System.Windows.Forms/2.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.Windows.Forms.dll
----------------------------------------
System
Assembly Version: 2.0.0.0
Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.832 (QFE.050727-8300)
CodeBase: file:///C:/WINNT/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System/2.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.dll
----------------------------------------
System.Drawing
Assembly Version: 2.0.0.0
Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.832 (QFE.050727-8300)
CodeBase: file:///C:/WINNT/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System.Drawing/2.0.0.0__b03f5f7f11d50a3a/System.Drawing.dll
----------------------------------------
System.Xml
Assembly Version: 2.0.0.0
Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.832 (QFE.050727-8300)
CodeBase: file:///C:/WINNT/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System.Xml/2.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.Xml.dll
----------------------------------------

************** JIT Debugging **************
To enable just-in-time (JIT) debugging, the .config file for this
application or computer (machine.config) must have the
jitDebugging value set in the system.windows.forms section.
The application must also be compiled with debugging
enabled.

For example:

<configuration>
<system.windows.forms jitDebugging="true" />
</configuration>

When JIT debugging is enabled, any unhandled exception
will be sent to the JIT debugger registered on the computer
rather than be handled by this dialog box.

[Griphon]

Just a note.. I was trying to compare a bursting elemental weapon of pure good with a bursting elemental of maiming weapon....

But Maiming isn't in the suffix list.

[jjflanigan]

I haven't gone through and look at the new prefixes and suffixes yet to see which ones add / modify damage, I'll try to take a look at them and get things updated soon.

[Helmet]

extremely good tool, nice work.
however, you list alingment burst as single.
axiomatic/anarchic burst work differntly then holy burst.

might want to create seperate varients.

[jjflanigan]

extremely good tool, nice work.
however, you list alingment burst as single.
axiomatic/anarchic burst work differntly then holy burst.

might want to create seperate varients.

I don't have access to log in to look at weapon effects currently, but how do they work differently? I checked on the wiki and it lists them as doing the exact same damage dice as the holy burst type (except against different alignments of course). What is the difference between them other than alignment?

[Shade]

All alignment burst work the same. The ingame descriptions are different for them, and incorrect currently which is probably whats confusing helmet.

Also the wiki didn't list the critical dmg correctly..

They do
+2d6 alignment damage (good, evil, chaoctic, lawful dmgs to apropriate targets)
and
+3d6 extra alignment damage on critical for x2 or
+4d6 extra alignment damage on critical for x3 or
+5d6 extra alignment damage on critical for x4

Does your tool factor in glancing blows at all?

[Mad_Bombardier]

All alignment burst work the same. The ingame descriptions are different for them, and incorrect currently which is probably whats confusing helmet.

Also the wiki didn't list the critical dmg correctly.Fixed. :)

[Helmet]

All alignment burst work the same. The ingame descriptions are different for them, and incorrect currently which is probably whats confusing helmet.


err, its not an error in the discription. Holy burst is actually inferior to axiomatic/anarchic burst.

Test it yourself.

[jjflanigan]

The tool does not figure in glancing blows. It's not so much a "DPS calculator" as it just compares how multiple weapons will fare against a single target of varying AC.

[Mad_Bombardier]

err, its not an error in the discription. Holy burst is actually inferior to axiomatic/anarchic burst.

Test it yourself.I have. The error is in the description, not the damage. :)

[Helmet]

i would love to see a screenshot of holy burst doing more then 18 damage..

[Kraki]

JJ, can you verify that this should be the correct format to add Maiming to the suffixes in the WeaponEffects.xml? It's 1d6 for 2x, 2d6 for 3x and 3d6 for 4x weapon multipliers and only applies on critical.

Thanks for your work on this tool.

Kraki

<effect>
<name>Maiming</name>
<numDice>0</numDice>
<sizeDice>0</sizeDice>
<toHit>0</toHit>
<toDamage>0</toDamage>
<toConfirm>0</toConfirm>
<crit>
<critMultiplier>true</critMultiplier>
<numDice>1</numDice>
<sizeDice>6</sizeDice>
</crit>
</effect>

[jjflanigan]

Yes, that is exactly how that should be for the maiming suffix. I apologize for not getting that in yet and uploaded, I've been swamped with other tasks recently. Anyone should be able to copy that and paste it into the weaponEffects.xml file in the suffix section and have access to the maiming effect, though.

Thank you for posting that up.

[Drak]

JJ I am not sure if i am just missing it, but how do you compare weapons against crit immune mobs ?

This option should count burst and other crit effects, but ignore the crit multiplier of the weapon, such as undead, constructs etc

[jjflanigan]

JJ I am not sure if i am just missing it, but how do you compare weapons against crit immune mobs ?

This option should count burst and other crit effects, but ignore the crit multiplier of the weapon, such as undead, constructs etc

Doh! I never even though about that. I'll add that in when I get home with the source code this evening.

[HumanJHawkins]

Wow. Very nice. I can only think of one (pretty complicated, but major) omission... There doesn't seem to be any way to calculate actual damage per round for Two Weapon Fighting...

Yes, you have the TWF flag and the "Off Hand" flag, but the average damage will be affected by whether both weapons are heavy or not too.

I am not sure you want to put the additional hours in to support this, but I think the best way to handle this (if you want to) is to duplicate many of the fields in the weapon selection boxes and have a "Non-Tower Shield or none" option, and a "Tower Shield" option to pick for weapons. (I.e. so for each weapon in the comparison, you would have the item in both hands identified)

Then, if they pick 2 weapons, you can adjust the attack roll depending on 2 heavy or not, or the tower shield penalty, and sum the damage.

Granted, I understand this would be a lot of work. But it is the only way to get a really accurate compare of, for example, a Great Axe vs. Kopesh and Kukri combo.

P.S. Is that a free or cheap graphing control you used? Looks very nice.

[jjflanigan]

New Version 1.40

Added in Crit Immunity toggle

this will negate the crit bonus to normal damage as well as removing sneak attack damage

Added in the maiming suffix



Regarding the TWF flag, I already take into consideration if the weapons are light or not, but I don't sum up the damage, I can look into that. As for the graphing control, it's just some custom code I wrote to handle drawing out the lines and plotting the data on the graph. I use an array list or rectangles to track the points for each data element that way I check for mouse-overs to allow each data point to have a unique tooltip.



if (hasTwf.Checked)
{
tmpToHit[0] -= 4;
tmpToHit[1] -= 4;
if (weaponForm1.testWeapon.weightClass.ToLower() == "light")
{
tmpToHit[0] += 2;
tmpToHit[1] += 2;
}
}
else
{
tmpToHit[0] -= 10;
tmpToHit[1] -= 6;
if (weaponForm1.testWeapon.weightClass.ToLower() == "light")
{
tmpToHit[0] += 2;
tmpToHit[1] += 2;
}
}

[HumanJHawkins]

Regarding the TWF flag, I already take into consideration if the weapons are light or not, but I don't sum up the damage

I think it would be a lot more complicated than that... You are only adding up the damage per attack for the initial attack. But depending on BAB and feats, you might have anywhere from 2 to 5 attacks per round. And, each of those attacks will have a different penalty.

For example, a level 12 fighter with Improved Two Weapon Fighting and a Heavy/Light mace combo gets the following attacks:
- Primary at -2
- Additional main hand at -7
- 2nd Additional main hand at -12
- Secondary at -2
- Additional secondary at -7
So, to compare a TWF to a THF, you would need to add these 5 attacks and compare them to the THF's 2 (or is it 3) attacks that happen in the same time period.

Since a 20 always hits, the extra 2 attacks are a pretty significant factor in damage calculation too... At later levels, that is (at minimum) 2 chances to roll a 20 for maybe an extra 75 points of damage that round.

Side Note: Would you mind letting me read your code? I would be happy to review it and offer suggestions (if possible), heap praise on you in the forums, or even write additions that you could (at your own option of course) use or not use. I use Visual Studio and MFC mostly... Samples of my work are at http://www.locutius.com/

Cheers either way. Very cool tool.

[Westerner]

Great tool for side-by-side comparison.

Would be great if there was an option to take into the BOB bonuses for 3rd/4th swings in a chain.

Thanks for putting it together!

[jjflanigan]

Great tool for side-by-side comparison.

Would be great if there was an option to take into the BOB bonuses for 3rd/4th swings in a chain.

Thanks for putting it together!

I'm working on modifications to it to allow you to view the average damage per swing using the growing to-hit bonus from the attack chains (which would also allow it to do rough DPS calculations in addition to the per swing calculations).

I just had to reformat my system due to win xp going insane, so I should be able to complete the changes once I get my VS reinstalled.

[jjflanigan]

Looks like this isn't going to be happening. I had backed up all of my data (all my programs, etc) to an external HDD before formatting to reinstall XP. Today, while I was copying information back to the computer, the external HDD failed and will no longer recognize (just get loud clicking noises). I even tried pulling it out of the enclosure (it was a WD 500gb My Book) and connecting it to the MB SATA controller, but I still can't access anything on the drive.

*sigh*

[binnsr]

wow .. that sucks.. no older backups floating around of your work?

[Glenalth]

Looks like this isn't going to be happening. I had backed up all of my data (all my programs, etc) to an external HDD before formatting to reinstall XP. Today, while I was copying information back to the computer, the external HDD failed and will no longer recognize (just get loud clicking noises). I even tried pulling it out of the enclosure (it was a WD 500gb My Book) and connecting it to the MB SATA controller, but I still can't access anything on the drive.

*sigh*

If the drive isn't even being recognized, that's a pretty big issue. There are ways to fix such a thing, but they're either incredibly expensive, or seriously difficult to do on your own.

The do-it-yourself method includes buying another hard drive of the exact same model and transplanting the drive platters to the new drive in a clean room (a thoroughly cleaned bathroom with no scented cleaners works ok). There are some guides to doing it on the internets, but there is no guarantee of success.

[HumanJHawkins]

Looks like this isn't going to be happening. I had backed up all of my data (all my programs, etc) to an external HDD before formatting to reinstall XP. Today, while I was copying information back to the computer, the external HDD failed and will no longer recognize (just get loud clicking noises). I even tried pulling it out of the enclosure (it was a WD 500gb My Book) and connecting it to the MB SATA controller, but I still can't access anything on the drive.

*sigh*

Wow... a big loss fot the community, and an even bigger one ( I suspect) for you! Sorry to hear about that.

[jjflanigan]

Alright -- I found a version of the code from version 1.13 -- Going to start going through the post as I can and re-adding the fixes and updates that came after that point.

For those curious -- the source I have is from right before post #50 in this thread on 03-23-2007, 08:47 PM. Going to have a good bit of re-work to do but should be able to get it back up to snuff and then add in the attack chain details for calculating a truer Damage-Per-Second rather than my current Damage-Per-Swing.

[Westerner]

Alright -- I found a version of the code from version 1.13 -- Going to start going through the post as I can and re-adding the fixes and updates that came after that point.

For those curious -- the source I have is from right before post #50 in this thread on 03-23-2007, 08:47 PM. Going to have a good bit of re-work to do but should be able to get it back up to snuff and then add in the attack chain details for calculating a truer Damage-Per-Second rather than my current Damage-Per-Swing.
Thanks, JJ, yhat would be awesome!

[MysticRhythms]

Any chance to make it compatible with framework versions other than 2.0?

[jjflanigan]

Any chance to make it compatible with framework versions other than 2.0?

I tried using a conversion tool to allow me to compile it against the 1.1 framework previously, unfortunately I utilized enough of the 2.0 only calls that it couldn't do the conversion. I suppose that since I'm going to have to rework a good number of the changes now would be a good time to go ahead and just rebuild it against 1.1 to allow more people to access it. I'll see about doing that and getting the code commented up so I'm comfortable releasing the source for anyone who might want to see how I do certain things with it (or just play with the code themselves).

[Orynn]

Just a thought on your dead drive; something I've seen work almost every time it was tried...

Throw the drive in the freezer for several hours, take it out and slave it over and see if it's recognized then.

I've seen this work to retrieve entire drives in the past. Good luck if you try this. There is hope.

Thanks for the tool and your hard work as well, fabulous tool.

[MysticRhythms]

I'll see about doing that and getting the code commented up so I'm comfortable releasing the source for anyone who might want to see how I do certain things with it (or just play with the code themselves).

That would be really cool in my book, but don't satisfy just one voice :)

I simply refuse to try using the 2.0 Framework since the last time I downloaded it, I had all kinds of applications crashing on me.

[jjflanigan]

Alright -- here we go.

After much finagling and rewriting, I've gotten the app to a point where it is compiling with the .NET 1.1 libraries (yay for still having my VS .NET 2003 student edition!)

I've uploaded it to my server and could really use some debugging help in case I missed some errors in it.

I've not added back in the missing features yet (Barbarian Crit bonuses, TWF, etc), but everything included should be functional. I will be working through this weekend to get back in the other updates.

http://perfectweb.org/ddo/weaponCompare1_1.zip

[HumanJHawkins]

I've uploaded it to my server and could really use some debugging help in case I missed some errors in it.

I would be happy to do a bit of code review... If you are concerned about copyright issues, etc, I could send you the source code for one of my projects as a hostage.

(Or if you are just concerned about it not looking professional and being a little embarrassed, I could send you blocks of my code that are so utterly unfathomably unprofessional that it will make you feel like a genius. :D )

Cheers!

[jjflanigan]

I would be happy to do a bit of code review... If you are concerned about copyright issues, etc, I could send you the source code for one of my projects as a hostage.

(Or if you are just concerned about it not looking professional and being a little embarrassed, I could send you blocks of my code that are so utterly unfathomably unprofessional that it will make you feel like a genius. :D )

Cheers!

Once I get all the non-essential code removed and comment it up so it will make sense to another person I'm going to release the code for anyone that wants it. Right now, it has a lot of stuff chucked in where I was having to try various methods to get the same functionality I had with 2.0 to exist in 1.1 ( stupid mouseeventargs changing ).

I'm not really concerned about copyright or anything since I'm not using the code or application to make any money or impressive people -- just want it to be as useful to the community as possible. However, on the off chance some future employer looks at this code I don't want them seeing spaghetti thrown everywhere and have that be their first impression of my coding abilities.

[jjflanigan]

Seeker damage adding pre-crit multiplier fixed (again)
Added Critical Rage Enhancements
Added Critical Accuracy Enhancements
Added Crit Immunity toggle for target

Holding off on the TWF addition until I work out the best way to calculate DPS since that will affect the TWF logic


http://perfectweb.org/ddo/weaponCompare1_1.zip

[jjflanigan]

Added logic to take attack chain progression into account (the +0, +0, +5, +10, +10)
Added logic to be able to calculate DPS
This feature is currently disabled until I finish the data calculations for the attackrates.xml file
Cleaned up the UI a bit
Added in a loader so it doesn't look like it is hanging at the start

http://perfectweb.org/ddo/weaponCompare1_1.zip

[jjflanigan]

The Current "Working" version is created using the 1.1 .NET framework and includes logic for calculating actual DPS and not just damage per swing. It also is set up to calculate the "true" damage of a 2H weapon by incorporating damage from glancing blows against your main target. The DPS graph is only accurate up to BaB 6 right now as I work to collect more data on the true number of swings / minute of the various weapons at each BaB

Current Version (.NET 1.1) -- http://perfectweb.org/ddo/weaponCompare1_1dbg.zip

The DPS chart uses the following feat options to augment the DPS rating for the appropriate weapon types. Haste currently does not increase DPS aside from providing the standard +1 to hit. That data is pending confirmation and will be added asap since it isn't a simple 25% DPS increase.

Rapid Shot
Rapid Reload
Quick Draw
THF
ITHF
GTHF

[Mad_Bombardier]

The Current "Working" version is ... includes logic for calculating actual DPS and not just damage per swing. It also is set up to calculate the "true" damage of a 2H weapon by incorporating damage from glancing blows against your main target.Glancing Blows rock! Even if damage is calculated for main target only, yours is the first tool to incorporate them. :) JJ, I'm loving the tool, but it's still missing a few fields. I'm looking for ways to enter the following:

Weapon Focus & Greater Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization
Racial Weapon bonuses
Barb/WF Power Attack
Greater Heroism
Bardsongs

I'd think that Misc attack and damage would be the right fields for all but PA. But they only go 0-5. They need to be a wider range of 0 to 18 (could be 0 to 20 for nice round numbers).

And my Barb's DPS is literally "off the chart." I think the y-axis caps at 95? That needs to go to 150 or so. :)

[jjflanigan]

Glancing Blows rock! Even if damage is calculated for main target only, yours is the first tool to incorporate them. :) JJ, I'm loving the tool, but it's still missing a few fields. I'm looking for ways to enter the following:

Weapon Focus & Greater Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization
Racial Weapon bonuses
Barb/WF Power Attack
Greater Heroism
Bardsongs

I'd think that Misc attack and damage would be the right fields for all but PA. But they only go 0-5. They need to be a wider range of 0 to 18 (could be 0 to 20 for nice round numbers).

And my Barb's DPS is literally "off the chart." I think the y-axis caps at 95? That needs to go to 150 or so. :)

Yeah, I had put in the Misc. Attack and Damage for things like weapon focus / specialization and racial bonuses from enhancements and the like. I'll expand the values in those dropdowns to 25 to allow for proper expansion. I'll also put in the Barb / WF power attack enhancements.

Heh, I'll expand the "top level" damage that it uses for the display multiplier (it current stops "expanding" after you get above 80) to go up to 200 just to be safe.

[jjflanigan]

Expanded DropDowns for Misc To Hit and Misc Damage
Added in options and logic for Barb. or Fight. Power Attack Enhancements
Expanded display layer to go up to 200

Updated attackrates.xml to be accurate up to BaB 10

[Mad_Bombardier]

Expanded DropDowns for Misc To Hit and Misc Damage
Added in options and logic for Barb. or Fight. Power Attack Enhancements
Expanded display layer to go up to 200Well, something changed. I was off the chart before, and now with the new PA setting, I'm stuck at 95 DPS. (Also, WF Barbs can get 6 PA enhancements for -11 to-hit, +22 damage with 2H weapons.)

[jjflanigan]

Well, something changed. I was off the chart before, and now with the new PA setting, I'm stuck at 95 DPS. (Also, WF Barbs can get 6 PA enhancements for -11 to-hit, +22 damage with 2H weapons.)

What settings were you using before and now -- that way I can compare with my old version of the software to see what changed.

[jjflanigan]

I had a brain fart -- I was doubling the amount applied to the ToHit bonus from Power Attack instead of the bonus to Damage from power attack on two handed weapons.

I've uploaded a new version (and expanded the range for the enhancement drop down). Let me know if you are seeing the numbers you expect, I can't see anything wrong with my logic currently.

[Mad_Bombardier]

I had a brain fart -- I was doubling the amount applied to the ToHit bonus from Power Attack instead of the bonus to Damage from power attack on two handed weapons.

I've uploaded a new version (and expanded the range for the enhancement drop down). Let me know if you are seeing the numbers you expect, I can't see anything wrong with my logic currently.On second thought, it was probably the new attacks per minute numbers bringing me down. :o The first time was when it capped at super fast BAB+4. Then, you updated to the slower BAB+10 numbers and my DPS went down. I'll check again in a little bit.

Another quickie question. I was using Carnifex as my 'compare to' weapon. Carnifex is listed because of it's unique crit range. But, does that also include Keen, since the weapon is also Keen? And does it automatically include the +2 weapon enhancement? If I check Expanded Crit Range, it definitely changes the DPS numbers. How do you have it set up for unique items?

P.S. The Y-axis label is Avg Dmg / Hit, but can be toggled to /hit or /second. Perhaps the y-axis should be relabeled as simply Average Damage. :)

[jjflanigan]

Since I didn't put in the "Keen" weapon effect, you actually need to toggle "Expanded Crit Range" for Carnifex (and any other weapon that is keen / impact, etc).

It also doesn't automatically add in any innate "+ modifiers" a named weapon has.

As a side note -- *Huge* update -- program is now at version 2.2.1

Added in the ability to set a weapon as mainhand / offhand

This feature allows prefixes / suffixes that work on both hands to affect the chart for each weapon
This feature takes into consideration the TWF, ITWF and GTWF feats -- Also added Oversized TWF feat

When display DPS chart instead of DPA chart the chart is drawn for the weapon pair - the DPA chart still shows each weapon individually, but still applies TWF modifiers as needed.

This will allow you to create a TWF "weapon set" and compare it to another "weapon set" or to a THF type weapon to see the "true numbers"

Again, the amount of code I had to add in for this was fairly significant. I spent a good deal of time testing it and I *believe* it is accurate and without logic errors. Please feel free to give it a try and let me know.

[Westerner]

Hi JJ. Really excited about the new tool!!

Was playing around with glancing blows and came across the following strange case.

Inputs:
Greataxe
Expanded Crit Range
+5 Wpn
+5/6 Misc To Hit/Dmg
8 BAB
+8 STR
Avg Dmg/Second view

Mousing over the AC 20 data points I get:
A) 70.41 base scenario
B) 74.42 +glancing blows enabled
C) 74.42 +2HF
D) 77.39 +I2HF
E) 77.39 +G2HF

Cases C and E don't make sense. Logically, the addition of two handed feats should raise DPS. Is this a bug?

Thanks again for all the great work you are doing to help the community!

[jjflanigan]

Hi JJ. Really excited about the new tool!!

Was playing around with glancing blows and came across the following strange case.

Inputs:
Greataxe
Expanded Crit Range
+5 Wpn
+5/6 Misc To Hit/Dmg
8 BAB
+8 STR
Avg Dmg/Second view

Mousing over the AC 20 data points I get:
A) 70.41 base scenario
B) 74.42 +glancing blows enabled
C) 74.42 +2HF
D) 77.39 +I2HF
E) 77.39 +G2HF

Cases C and E don't make sense. Logically, the addition of two handed feats should raise DPS. Is this a bug?

Thanks again for all the great work you are doing to help the community!

You are right about that, I've only done up to BaB 10 and since G2HF requires BaB 11, I have not yet captured that data.

The feat two-handed fighting just increases the chance to hit with your glancing blow. So instead of -5 penalty to your to-hit you get a -2 penalty to your to-hit. I believe it also adds 10 damage before the the GB damage divider is applied, so that may not be working properly, and I'll look into it. I2HF appears to be adding the damage properly, and once I get BaB 11 data, you should see the increase from that feat as well.

*EDIT*

Found the problem and updated to 2.2.2

For those who care I had



if (baseTWF.Checked)
{
thfToHitModifier = 2;
thfBonusDamage = 10;
}


instead of




if (baseTHF.Checked)
{
thfToHitModifier = 2;
thfBonusDamage = 10;
}


It's what I get for adding in THF and TWF at the same time in the code.

[jjflanigan]

Alrighty -- finally updated with the attack rates for all of the BaB (0 - 16).

The Attack Rates are as accurate as I can get them, I timed each type of attack at each BaB for exactly 60 seconds, and used that to calculate out the attacks per second. This rate is then applied to the average damage per attack (swing) to calculate the DPS of a specific weapon or weapon-pair.

I also added in the greensteel weapons, since they have different damage dice and updated the screen to include a secondary effect like the ones you can get on a greensteel (i.e. icy + flaming burst, etc).


As always, if you notice something acting wonky, please let me know.

Cheers


http://perfectweb.org/ddo/weaponCompare1_1dbg.zip

[Kerr]

Can we get a Tempest Ranger add in for this? It's about a 10&#37; stacking haste bonus for attack speed.

I don't know if this is easy to do or not, but would it be possible to save some settings from session to session? FOr instance, I have a +5 Flaming Burst Longsword. It's usually a primary hand weapon, but rather than entering it frequently to compare against something else, can I just get the option to save that as a quick select weapon to compare against something new I find?

[jjflanigan]

Can we get a Tempest Ranger add in for this? It's about a 10% stacking haste bonus for attack speed.

I don't know if this is easy to do or not, but would it be possible to save some settings from session to session? FOr instance, I have a +5 Flaming Burst Longsword. It's usually a primary hand weapon, but rather than entering it frequently to compare against something else, can I just get the option to save that as a quick select weapon to compare against something new I find?

I'm actually working on the option to save a weapon out or copy a weapon using a right click context menu right now :)

As for the tempest feat. I had added it and haste in using the simple method of just adjusting the attack rate by 10% and 25% respectively (or 35% for both). The problem, though, was those numbers didn't match the actual attack rates I was seeing in game. For example -- at BaB 6, with haste on, I got 130 attacks / minute or an attack rate of 2.1667. If I simply modifiy the standard attack rate for BaB 6 by 25%, I only get an attack rate of 2.0416. I've started collecting the data I need, but I basically have to redo all of my tests for BaB 1 - 16 only this time with haste (or tempest) to get the right values.

For now I may swag it and use a multiplier that seems to be constant across the values I've capture so far, but I'm going to need to put in a warning about it. I'll see if I can come up with a number that seems to work across the BaB values I've capture with haste so far, and put that in for now.

[jjflanigan]

New Version up -- 2.3.1

Added the ability to Save / Load your custom built weapon settings
Added in a temporary multiplier for haste
Added in the option for Ranger Tempest 1 with a temporary multiplier

*PLEASE NOTE*

The multipliers being used for haste and tempest are not completely accurate. They are close enough to give you a representative picture of the effect they will have on you, but the actual DPS numbers you will receive with them enabled are not going to be as accurate as the numbers without them enabled.

http://perfectweb.org/ddo/weaponCompare1_1dbg.zip

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

This thread deserves to stay at the top of the forum since I was looking for it yesterday and couldn't find it. This isn't a 'bump', just a statement of opinion.

Perhaps adding it to the 'character creation tools' sticky?

Garth

[jjflanigan]

I'm working on gathering the "real" numbers for haste and the tempest enhancements now to get those added in. Are there other feats, enhancements or items (not action boost enhancements though due to the short duration on them) that I need to ensure I capture in my data?

[paul1devries]

when i try to open it says there is an exception it can't handle...does this happen to others? Is there a program i need to load to run?

Cheers,
Redleaf/Brisket

[jjflanigan]

when i try to open it says there is an exception it can't handle...does this happen to others? Is there a program i need to load to run?

Cheers,
Redleaf/Brisket

As long as you have .NET Framework 1.1 installed it should work fine, it has no other requirements aside from the files in the zip folder.

Here's a link to the Microsoft download for it if you don't have it, but I believe 1.1 is default in windows xp sp2 and I know vista includes it.

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=262D25E3-F589-4842-8157-034D1E7CF3A3&displaylang=en

*EDIT*

Also make sure you are using this version: http://perfectweb.org/ddo/weaponCompare1_1dbg.zip

And not the old .NET 2.0 version.

[Westerner]

Hi JJ,

I'm not seeing any benefit of taking GTHF relative to ITHF. Specific scenarios are:

BAB 10
STR Bonus 10
+5 Elemental Greataxe of Righteousness
Misc To Hit +7
Misc Dmg +6

A) Base Scenario 81.08 dmg per secondvs AC32
B) +THF 82.25
C) +ITHF 83.67
D) +GTHF 83.67

[jjflanigan]

Hi JJ,

I'm not seeing any benefit of taking GTHF relative to ITHF. Specific scenarios are:

BAB 10
STR Bonus 10
+5 Elemental Greataxe of Righteousness
Misc To Hit +7
Misc Dmg +6

A) Base Scenario 81.08 dmg per secondvs AC32
B) +THF 82.25
C) +ITHF 83.67
D) +GTHF 83.67

You won't see any bonus from GTHF until you hit BaB 11 because that should be the earliest point at which you can take that feat.

[Westerner]

You won't see any bonus from GTHF until you hit BaB 11 because that should be the earliest point at which you can take that feat.
Makes sense.

However, I tried it again with BAB 11 and get the following damage per second:

base scenario 84.44
thf 85.61
ithf 87.14
gthf 87.14

Tried it informally with BAB 14 and didn't see a difference from taking GTHF.

FYI, I'm using the version from your link (the 53kb zip file).

[jjflanigan]

Makes sense.

However, I tried it again with BAB 11 and get the following damage per second:

base scenario 84.44
thf 85.61
ithf 87.14
gthf 87.14

Tried it informally with BAB 14 and didn't see a difference from taking GTHF.

FYI, I'm using the version from your link (the 53kb zip file).

Whoah, totally my bad. I added in the check box for greater THF...but managed to omit the logic for it. I put in the if block to adjust the attack rate based upon the Greater Two-Handed Fighting feat and uploaded version 2.3.2 to the server.

Thank you for catching that.

[jjflanigan]

Updated to 2.3.3 to correct the THF glancing blow damage multiplier scaling

[jjflanigan]

Just putting out some feelers on this --

Do the users of this tool feel that the 1% (or whatever it ends up being) proc rate of the tier 3 greensteel effects is a big enough draw to add them to the weapon builder?

Currently you can add in the tier 1 & tier 2 damage effects, but there's no way to add in the third tier using the tool. I'm going to be adding the third tier "normal" damage effects, but wanted to know if I should work in the logic for the "special" damage effects as well when I'm doing it.

I've not had a lot of activity in the thread so I'm not sure if that is good news (meaning I've fixed all of the broken stuff) or bad news (people don't use it anymore), but hopefully enough use it that I can determine if there is a desire for this addition.

Cheers,

[Snoggy]

Do the users of this tool feel that the 1% (or whatever it ends up being) proc rate of the tier 3 greensteel effects is a big enough draw to add them to the weapon builder?

The people who get the 600+ point Lightning damage proc are probably going to say yes. The rest of the world is probably going to think it'd be a whole lot of work for you for something that doesn't go off all that much.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Just putting out some feelers on this --

Do the users of this tool feel that the 1% (or whatever it ends up being) proc rate of the tier 3 greensteel effects is a big enough draw to add them to the weapon builder?Nope. 1% chance process effects are not worthy of calculation in DPS.

[binnsr]

I agree with Mad .. great tool, but a 1% chance doesn't justify the time you'd need to add it in ..

[jjflanigan]

Groovy, I'll just add in the ability to add a third "blast" proc effect for the normal on-hit effects you can get at tier 3 and call it a day.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Groovy, I'll just add in the ability to add a third "blast" proc effect for the normal on-hit effects you can get at tier 3 and call it a day.Cheers, jj. Keep up the great work!

[Westerner]

JJ, first off, props on raising the state of the game!!

Would it be possible to have the STR, BAB and other character-level inputs optionally separate by weapon?

This would allow at-a-glance DPS comparison of different builds.

[HumanJHawkins]

This would allow at-a-glance DPS comparison of different builds.

Indeed, props JJ.

As for comparison, I remember this tool being multi-launchable... So you could just run it twice and set up two builds. I haven't tried to do that in a while and can't test it from here, but that may be an option.

Thanks!

[jjflanigan]

JJ, first off, props on raising the state of the game!!

Would it be possible to have the STR, BAB and other character-level inputs optionally separate by weapon?

This would allow at-a-glance DPS comparison of different builds.

Hrm -- I can do that, have to think of a clean way to do it within the UI. Don't want to just throw tabs around willy-nilly.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Hrm -- I can do that, have to think of a clean way to do it within the UI. Don't want to just throw tabs around willy-nilly./throws tabs willy-nilly at jj. :p

[Tanks]

First of all, this is a great idea and can be of major help to me/us! :)

I have two questions (I didn't read all of the thread so I apologize if these have been answered):

1) Can you create a second "1" field so that if you choose TWF in the drop-down menu you can make calculations of TWF vs THF?

2) Did you add craft weapon damage yet (Good/elemental-blast, etc.)? I couldn't find it in any of the fields.

Thanks in advance!

[Glenalth]

Just putting out some feelers on this --

Do the users of this tool feel that the 1% (or whatever it ends up being) proc rate of the tier 3 greensteel effects is a big enough draw to add them to the weapon builder?


Maybe not by type, but having a set of extra fields (% chance, damage dice) would let some folks enter in their own data to cover it and possibly address future weapon effects.

[jjflanigan]

Version: 2.3.5 uploaded to server (http://perfectweb.org/ddo/weaponCompare1_1dbg.zip)

Added in the Blast Effects from the tier 3 of the raid items. I couldn't find hard data about the bonus damage you get on a natural 20, so that's not coded in yet.

--------------------------------------------------

To compare TWF vs. THF, you can just set up weapons 1 & 2 as a TWF weapon pair, and then weapon 3 as your THF weapon. Once you toggle it to show DPS it will check the appropriate feats and apply them as needed to the weapons for comparison of the two combat styles.

I'm working on figuring out a way to allow people to add in a custom effect for weapons in case people want to see the effect the various bonus effects from the raid can have in combat.

[pjw]

For my own education more than anything else: if a monster is immune to crits, do burst-type effects still apply? It seems the comparison tool says 'yes', but I'd like to be sure.

[Glenalth]

Burst effects and other "on crit" effects still fire off when a crit is stopped by fortification and the like.

Otherwise smiting would only work on some Warforged :)

[jjflanigan]

For my own education more than anything else: if a monster is immune to crits, do burst-type effects still apply? It seems the comparison tool says 'yes', but I'd like to be sure.

Yep. As the above response mentions. This is also why maiming is good in the Shroud raid against the portals. The on-crit damage from maiming isn't affected by their DR and can help bump up your DPS.

[Westerner]

Hey jj -

Would it be possible to have the option to use different character tabs per weapon?

This would facilitate comparing different build options from a DPS standpoint.

[jjflanigan]

Hey jj -

Would it be possible to have the option to use different character tabs per weapon?

This would facilitate comparing different build options from a DPS standpoint.

I'm still looking into that. Trying to get a decent way to do it without having just a ton of tabs up at the top.

[Yaga_Nub]

Version: 2.3.5 uploaded to server (http://perfectweb.org/ddo/weaponCompare1_1dbg.zip)

Added in the Blast Effects from the tier 3 of the raid items. I couldn't find hard data about the bonus damage you get on a natural 20, so that's not coded in yet.

on a natural 20 (confirmed as well) all the blast effects give a +4d6 of damage per Inkblack's chart if I am reading it correctly.

[jjflanigan]

on a natural 20 (confirmed as well) all the blast effects give a +4d6 of damage per Inkblack's chart if I am reading it correctly.

I thought that had changed so that the 4d6 happened on any crit and then there was a bonus effect on a natural confirmed 20?

[Yaga_Nub]

I thought that had changed so that the 4d6 happened on any crit and then there was a bonus effect on a natural confirmed 20?

No it's a +4d6 on a natural 20 IN ADDITION TO +1d10/+2d10/+3d10 on any crit.

Again this is according to Inkblack's crafting spreadsheet which has been pretty accurate and is kept up to date with all findings. The DDO wiki has this as well.

[jjflanigan]

No it's a +4d6 on a natural 20 IN ADDITION TO +1d10/+2d10/+3d10 on any crit.

Alright...so, the blast effects work just like the burst effects unless you get a natural 20, then it's a 4d6 bonus on top of it.

[Yaga_Nub]

Alright...so, the blast effects work just like the burst effects unless you get a natural 20, then it's a 4d6 bonus on top of it.

yes sir.

[jjflanigan]

yes sir.

Sweet -- I'll work on adding that in right now

[Angelus_dead]

Nope. 1&#37; chance process effects are not worthy of calculation in DPS.
Opinions like that are scientifically invalid. It's called prejudice.

The point of a DPS tool is to help people accurately make those kinds of determinations. If you already knew what effects were "worthy" of consideration for DPS, why have a tool at all?

PS. If you don't believe a 1% chance of 600 damage is worthy, then by that logic a 95% chance of 1d6 damage shouldn't be included either.

[Westerner]

Do the users of this tool feel that the 1% (or whatever it ends up being) proc rate of the tier 3 greensteel effects is a big enough draw to add them to the weapon builder?

Currently you can add in the tier 1 & tier 2 damage effects, but there's no way to add in the third tier using the tool. I'm going to be adding the third tier "normal" damage effects, but wanted to know if I should work in the logic for the "special" damage effects as well when I'm doing it.
I don't think it's worthwhile to factor in a 1-2% chance of massive damage into average DPS calculations.

IMO, the purpose of DPS is to get a measure of sustained damage over time and I don't think an average would be the best way to capture this.

[Angelus_dead]

I don't think it's worthwhile to factor in a 1-2% chance of massive damage into average DPS calculations.
That may or may not be the case depending on factors like the actual X% and the hitpoints of the monster you're talking about. DDO monsters may have over 200,000 hp. It would be wrong to arbitrarily exclude possibilities from analysis simply because you took a guess as to what the result would be.

Questions such as which combination of 24 large ingredients leads to the most DPS are interesting ones, and valuable not only to the players who have large ingredients, but also the many more players who are thinking about trying to get them, and want to know if it'll be worth it.

[jjflanigan]

Version 2.3.5 uploaded (http://perfectweb.org/ddo/weaponCompare1_1dbg.zip)

Blast effects updated as following -


On normal hit -- no bonus damage
On normal crit -- damage as per a burst effect
On natural 20 + confirm - damage as per a burst effect + 4d6

[jjflanigan]

That may or may not be the case depending on factors like the actual X% and the hitpoints of the monster you're talking about. DDO monsters may have over 200,000 hp. It would be wrong to arbitrarily exclude possibilities from analysis simply because you took a guess as to what the result would be.

Questions such as which combination of 24 large ingredients leads to the most DPS are interesting ones, and valuable not only to the players who have large ingredients, but also the many more players who are thinking about trying to get them, and want to know if it'll be worth it.

Luckily, with the changes I've made to accommodate the Blast effects from tier 3, I know have the logic in place for the other non-standard damage effects (at varying percentage chances). Once I get accurate data on the damage and percentages of those, I will add them in to the data files.

[Westerner]

That may or may not be the case depending on factors like the actual X&#37; and the hitpoints of the monster you're talking about. DDO monsters may have over 200,000 hp. It would be wrong to arbitrarily exclude possibilities from analysis simply because you took a guess as to what the result would be.
I see your point, Angelus.

As a first stab, my intuition says that if a long shot damage effect has at least a 50% chance of occuring during the course of a fight, it should be counted in average DPS.

Doing some rough math to flesh this out...

Assumptions:
1.5% chance of 600 damage each swing
THF, 50 dmg/swing

Calculations:
.985 probability ^ 50 swings = ~ 50% probability

50 swings x 50 dmg/swing = 2500 dmg + 50% x 600 dmg = 2800 dmg.

Question: Do end-game mobs usually have at least 2800HP?

[Mad_Bombardier]

Question: Do end-game mobs usually have at least 2800HP?Bosses only.

[jjflanigan]

I've almost got the custom-effect piece added in, just trying to flesh out all the available options for people.

[Humperdink]

Hey JJ,

Appreciate the program, spent way too many hours playing with it. Any plans to update for Mod 7 greensteel stuff? That dwarven axe looks tasty!

[Tanka]

Bumpity-bump-bump?

Pretty please with sugar on top, jj?

:D

[binnsr]

Is there an updated version of this containing the new Greensteel recipes?

[Pyromaniac]

JJ hasn't been on much lately, I'd suggest a PM?

[jjflanigan]

Sorry for the delay, I've added all the new green steel recipes into the application now and uploaded it to the server.

http://perfectweb.org/ddo/weaponCompare1_1dbg.zip

[Tanka]

Sorry for the delay, I've added all the new green steel recipes into the application now and uploaded it to the server.

http://perfectweb.org/ddo/weaponCompare1_1dbg.zip
Sweet! Thanks jj!

[JediZombie]

Great program, I appreciate the work you put into it and I am sure the rest of the community does as well.

[celebrindal]

Hey just checked out the tool, looks way cool and will have to give it lots of attention... but I was quickly wanting to check something and either there is a bug or something...

Shouldn't a plain jane repeating light xbow do more dps than a regular light xbow?

Thanks.

[jjflanigan]

Hey just checked out the tool, looks way cool and will have to give it lots of attention... but I was quickly wanting to check something and either there is a bug or something...

Shouldn't a plain jane repeating light xbow do more dps than a regular light xbow?

Thanks.

If you are comparing damage per swing (shot) then they will do exactly the same damage since they are both 1d8 x2 weapons. When you are comparing DPS at anything above BaB 0, you'll see the difference in the damage output since the repeater fires more shots in a given time period. There is a radio button beneath the graph you have to toggle if you want to see DPS.

[Parallaxx]

I’m new to this tool but it’s been very helpful in comparing weapons. But I couldn’t figure out how to answer 2 questions.

How do you account for a mob that takes double damage from an elemental type? For example which is better against a fire elemental, a +1 frost kopesh or a +4 acid kopesh?

How do you account for a mob that takes 1/2 damage from a weapon type? For example which is better against a skeleton a +3 holy kopesh of pure good or a +1 holy mace of pure good?

Is there a way to enter these into the tool? If not that would be a cool enhancement for the target stats tab.

[Zaodon]

Two questions.

1. Any way to convert this to a web-based tool?
2. Now that the formula for 2H-weapon glancing blows has been published*, will you add DPS calculations for glancing blows in ?

* http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1803864&postcount=16

[Ardanroth]

is it me or are some prefixes and suffixes missing

i couldnt find bone crushing, for one


other than that awesome , keep up the good work

[Parallaxx]

is it me or are some prefixes and suffixes missing

All the ones that don't effect damage are not there. So I was just selecting 'nothing' for them.

[jjflanigan]

Most of the damage reduction in game is of a specific value instead of a % (most, not all, of course) so I covered most of that by adding in the damage reduction drop down under Target Stats. Since I don't call out different element types individually (i.e. fire is the same as frost to the application), it would be hard to work something like that into it, but I'll see if I can come up with something.

The calculations for glancing blows have been in the tool for several months ;). It's on the lower right corner above the "Draw Chart" button.

It's possible to convert it over to a web tool that uses the same type of interface, I just haven't had time to undertake something like that recently.

As Parallax mentioned, if a suffix or prefix doesn't add directly to the damage done by the weapon, it is not provided as an option.

[Ollathir]

Not sure if needed but, bump

[Comfortably]

Awesome!

[Thanimal]

Firstly: AWESOME TOOL!

But I think I found a few bugs:

1) I was testing a build and I seem to have found that checking iTWF in addition to TWF and gTWF causes my DPS to go DOWN. I believe the result is correct when I uncheck the iTWF box, but for some reason checking that causes a non-trivial reduction in reported DPS.

Much more minor: Because of the prereq relationship, it would be nice for gTWF to automatically check iTWF and TWF and gray them out. Simiarly for other prereq relationships.

2) Why do I get lower DPS for "Elemental" prefix than "Alignment" prefix? Aren't these both d6? "Alignment" is the one that matches my hand computations, suggesting Elemental is not correct?

3) DPS above about 225 doesn't appear on the chart at all. Quite a few builds can hit that these days, especially against favored enemies or with Haste Boost on (see below).

Possible enhancements:

1) allow speedup factors, such as Fighter Haste Boost
2) break out more feats and enhancements and "common" bonuses like GH, Bard Songs, etc. -- this serves mainly to remind people to put them in!
3) allow non-criticalling extra damage like the alchemical crafting
4) some way to model attack-chain hacking. The numbers I've seen on that recently are just crazy. One person claims a 54% increase in attack rate by using a magic sequence of standing and moving! If that's even close to true, then unfortunately not modeling that is fairly inaccurate.
5) a "show the work" page to verify (and help debug!)

[moorewr]

Bump! JJ, are you still maintaining this program?

[binnsr]

Bump! JJ, are you still maintaining this program?

Inquiring Minds Want to Know!

[KKDragonLord]

Do you have plans to Add paladin Zeal to the calc?

[Pyromaniac]

I haven't seen JJ in game in ages, not sure if he plays anymore.

[Tanka]

Last Activity: 07-23-2009 07:53 PM

Hm.

[jjflanigan]

Sorry all, I'm still around. I'll take a look at what changes need to be made in the program to match current in game play and will get a new version pushed out.

If anyone knows of specific changes that must be made and can let me know that'll save some time on those :D

[KKDragonLord]

Patch 1 just made some changes to the system, speeds are all normalized now, no 5th animation and different off-hand attacks.

[jjflanigan]

Just a heads up, I'm not sure when I'm going to get the time to recapture all of the attack speeds for the different weapon types at the different BaB to correct the DPS calculations in the tool. I've started working on it but the majority of the numbers seem to have changed at least slightly so it's going to be a lot of work again recapturing that.

[HumanJHawkins]

Just a heads up, I'm not sure when I'm going to get the time to recapture all of the attack speeds for the different weapon types at the different BaB to correct the DPS calculations in the tool. I've started working on it but the majority of the numbers seem to have changed at least slightly so it's going to be a lot of work again recapturing that.

Are you of the belief that the numbers are still different per weapon? Because what I understood the fix to be, was that all weapons now swing at the same speed (relative to each other).

So, while speed varies with BAB, haste, etc, the calculation about which weapon is better than another is independent of weapon type. That should make the whole thing a lot easier, no?

[KKDragonLord]

Are you of the belief that the numbers are still different per weapon? Because what I understood the fix to be, was that all weapons now swing at the same speed (relative to each other).

So, while speed varies with BAB, haste, etc, the calculation about which weapon is better than another is independent of weapon type. That should make the whole thing a lot easier, no?

Some people have reported that Twiching still works for THF, albeit a bit less effectively


Just a heads up, I'm not sure when I'm going to get the time to recapture all of the attack speeds for the different weapon types at the different BaB to correct the DPS calculations in the tool. I've started working on it but the majority of the numbers seem to have changed at least slightly so it's going to be a lot of work again recapturing that.

cForce has some pretty solid weapon speed testing going on

Also some people cam up with some DPS calculators that might be of some help.

Patch 1 and 2 screwed up the speeds completely so you should try looking up all those resources and maybe team up with some people to help you out.

I think your DPS Calc was amazingly good and easy to use and i think you should definitely give it another go

[jjflanigan]

Ahh, if things are more consistent now that WILL make it a lot easier. I'll get with some of the people that have worked the swing speeds out at various BaB and see if I can get that in place in my app.

Thank you.

[jjflanigan]

Just a heads up, I now have a windows based internet host as well as my previous unix based one so I think I'm going to convert this over to a web app...a main reason behind this is the fact that I now longer have a convenient method of compiling 1.1 applications.

[Robinton]

JJ,

/ditto Awesome tool.

Hope your holidays are going well wherever you are. Going to subscribe to this thread to see when (hopefully) you get this on the web (or update the current program).

Suggestions after using this a lot in the last 24 hours:
1) Add a tutorial. I think I have figured out most of what everything is, but when I was first looking for flaming burst and didn't find it or of pure good and didn't see that, it was confusing.

Robinton