Lamannia Update 59 Preview 1 Feedback: Diplomatic Impunity

[Cordovan]

Please provide your feedback after running Diplomatic Impunity on Lamannia during this preview here! Find the release notes on the Lamannia forums (https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/538079-Lamannia-Update-59-Preview-1-OPENING-SOON).

[Wdh]

I want my wildmen back. Bullywugs are funny but the wildmen are apart of classic DDO.

[Bolo_Grubb]

why replace the wild men? Just curious

[LeoLionxxx]

Indeed, why replace the wildmen?

Is it about cultural sensitivity for killing people native to an area? Concerns about players not wanting to kill things that look human? Wanting the green-skinned bullywugs to blend in with the landscape?

The wildmen feel like an iconic part of this question. I'd hate to see them go!

[Steelstar]

why replace the wild men? Just curious
As we were updating Diplomatic Impunity for u59 and needed to update all of the monsters anyway, we decided to move forward with replacing the Wildmen in this dungeon. We have not yet replaced Wildmen in other parts of the game, but we intend to do so in the future. DDO's Wildmen enemies are problematic on several levels, and while this could and probably should have been taken care of years ago, we're replacing them now that we have an opportunity to re-focus on this content.

Wildmen and the depiction of them in DDO are not tied to a specific pen-and-paper D&D monster to begin with, giving even less reason for them to remain. As for why Bullywugs as the replacement, we determined that they were a fitting replacement in this dungeon that would cause minimal need to rework the story and other elements that would be difficult to change as part of this Update's revamp.

[MathisMagic]

As we were updating Diplomatic Impunity for u59 and needed to update all of the monsters anyway, we decided to move forward with replacing the Wildmen in this dungeon. We have not yet replaced Wildmen in other parts of the game, but we intend to do so in the future. DDO's Wildmen enemies are problematic on several levels, and while this could and probably should have been taken care of years ago, we're replacing them now that we have an opportunity to re-focus on this content.

Wildmen and the depiction of them in DDO are not tied to a specific pen-and-paper D&D monster to begin with, giving even less reason for them to remain. As for why Bullywugs as the replacement, we determined that they were a fitting replacement in this dungeon that would cause minimal need to rework the story and other elements that would be difficult to change as part of this Update's revamp.

That makes a lot of sense. The wildmen have always made me somewhat uncomfortable. It's not a bad idea to slowly work them out as long as your already updating stuff with them in it.

[Aelonwy]

Unpopular opinion but I like the bullywug change. The only place I've liked having wildmen is Restless Isles where we save them from the ogres and Illithid slave-masters. Also the graphics for wildmen are just lame. I'm not sure but they've always looked like wights reskinned in monkey-suits to me, cheap ones from Spirit Halloween.

So ALL wildmen will eventually be replaced?

Where else are they in the game besides Restless Isles and Ataraxia? Against the Demon Queen. The island in Inspired Quarter. Uhm Storm the Beaches... am I missing anything?

Storm the Beaches could be replaced by anything... Lizardfolk, Yuan-ti or Bullywugs... might need to replace the wolves with something that might live side-by-side with these monstrous-humanoids.
Ataraxia? Something that lives on a beach, in caves. Could put Sauhaugin here.
Restless Isles... I liked them here, fit with the ogres. Maybe goblins?
ADQ? Fit with Monkey Crest, idk how this will change to be appropriate. I think I would change the crest to something else entirely and while I was in there change the Trogs for the snake crest to Yuan-ti.
Mining For Ancient Secrets... any enslaved humanoids? drones and automatons mining? Constructs could be cool.

[MathisMagic]

So ALL wildmen will eventually be replaced?

Where else are they in the game besides Restless Isles and Ataraxia? Against the Demon Queen. The island in Inspired Quarter. Uhm Storm the Beaches... am I missing anything?

Storm the Beaches could be replaced by anything... Lizardfolk, Yuan-ti or Bullywugs... might need to replace the wolves with something that might live side-by-side with these monstrous-humanoids.
Ataraxia? Something that lives on a beach, in caves. Could put Sauhaugin here.
Restless Isles... I liked them here, fit with the ogres. Maybe goblins?
ADQ? Fit with Monkey Crest, idk how this will change to be appropriate. I think I would change the crest to something else entirely and while I was in there change the Trogs for the snake crest to Yuan-ti.
Mining For Ancient Secrets... any enslaved humanoids? drones and automatons mining? Constructs could be cool.

I like these ideas!

I think there are a lot of enslaved wildmen in various quests, like in the dreaming dark for instance. They're in boxes in genesis point too. Replace them with hobgoblins or something, they don't really have a story point there I don't think.

The mongrelfolk in Ravenloft are technically also wildmen, but I'd argue that that's the location where they're the least offensive, given the whole point of them in the story... so they may be skipped. But I'd love to see them come up with something new for that bit.

[Mindos]

DDO's Wildmen enemies are problematic

What else in DDO is problematic? If you had unlimited time and money, what else would you change?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_man

[Madja]

While I still don't really understand the change I'm fine with either. Wasn't attached to the wildmen in any way. I mean I think they're sweet, but if some people have issues with them for some reason then that's okay. I do think you have to have a bit of a warped mind to find any sort of racist undertone to them if that's the implication.

Will the mongrelfolk also be replaced in the future?

[Duhboy]

As we were updating Diplomatic Impunity for u59 and needed to update all of the monsters anyway, we decided to move forward with replacing the Wildmen in this dungeon. We have not yet replaced Wildmen in other parts of the game, but we intend to do so in the future. DDO's Wildmen enemies are problematic on several levels, and while this could and probably should have been taken care of years ago, we're replacing them now that we have an opportunity to re-focus on this content.

Wildmen and the depiction of them in DDO are not tied to a specific pen-and-paper D&D monster to begin with, giving even less reason for them to remain. As for why Bullywugs as the replacement, we determined that they were a fitting replacement in this dungeon that would cause minimal need to rework the story and other elements that would be difficult to change as part of this Update's revamp.

Pretty sure wild men are in 5E.

[Mindos]

Will the mongrelfolk also be replaced in the future?

https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/516216

I brought the vistani up in the past.

[Dreppo]

DDO's Wildmen enemies are problematic on several levels

Can you elaborate on the problems?

[Bolo_Grubb]

As we were updating Diplomatic Impunity for u59 and needed to update all of the monsters anyway, we decided to move forward with replacing the Wildmen in this dungeon. We have not yet replaced Wildmen in other parts of the game, but we intend to do so in the future. DDO's Wildmen enemies are problematic on several levels, and while this could and probably should have been taken care of years ago, we're replacing them now that we have an opportunity to re-focus on this content.

Wildmen and the depiction of them in DDO are not tied to a specific pen-and-paper D&D monster to begin with, giving even less reason for them to remain. As for why Bullywugs as the replacement, we determined that they were a fitting replacement in this dungeon that would cause minimal need to rework the story and other elements that would be difficult to change as part of this Update's revamp.


Thank you

[droid327]

As a person of French heritage, I find bullywugs to be highly problematic too :P

I'm against this rationale. This feels like abishai and tanar'ri all over again...a solution to what isn't really a problem, and something most D&D fans agree wasn't good for the brand. And sets a bad precedent for the game too - I mean do we want to start talking about the issues with halflings? Especially Talenta halflings? Do we want to start talking about the Vistani? The Orientalist tropes in Menechtarun? Just seems like this is not the can of worms you devs need to open right now...

[droid327]

https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/516216

I brought the vistani up in the past.

Heh and the devs quickly closed that discussion as being inappropriate for DDO :p

[Wdh]

As we were updating Diplomatic Impunity for u59 and needed to update all of the monsters anyway, we decided to move forward with replacing the Wildmen in this dungeon. We have not yet replaced Wildmen in other parts of the game, but we intend to do so in the future. DDO's Wildmen enemies are problematic on several levels, and while this could and probably should have been taken care of years ago, we're replacing them now that we have an opportunity to re-focus on this content.

Wildmen and the depiction of them in DDO are not tied to a specific pen-and-paper D&D monster to begin with, giving even less reason for them to remain. As for why Bullywugs as the replacement, we determined that they were a fitting replacement in this dungeon that would cause minimal need to rework the story and other elements that would be difficult to change as part of this Update's revamp.

I think you should have picked any race to replace them except bullywugs. Maybe actually some shifters, since I don't think there are NPC shifters really in DDO.

[LeoLionxxx]

As we were updating Diplomatic Impunity for u59 and needed to update all of the monsters anyway, we decided to move forward with replacing the Wildmen in this dungeon. We have not yet replaced Wildmen in other parts of the game, but we intend to do so in the future. DDO's Wildmen enemies are problematic on several levels, and while this could and probably should have been taken care of years ago, we're replacing them now that we have an opportunity to re-focus on this content.

Wildmen and the depiction of them in DDO are not tied to a specific pen-and-paper D&D monster to begin with, giving even less reason for them to remain. As for why Bullywugs as the replacement, we determined that they were a fitting replacement in this dungeon that would cause minimal need to rework the story and other elements that would be difficult to change as part of this Update's revamp.

That's a good and solid answer, thanks.

Huh, I had in my head that Wild Men were in the DDO Monster manual, but I guess they aren't.


What else in DDO is problematic? If you had unlimited time and money, what else would you change?

IMO "Purge the Heretics" should be closed and/or retooled. I, for one, refuse to run it on principle.

https://ddowiki.com/page/Purge_the_Heretics

[ThomasHunter]

I'd love to see this dungeon retooled a bit to cut down on the redundant running back and forth. For me, that is always a feel bad. Even if the guy at the end who shows you the beachhead that the army has is changed to a wizard who could cast dimension door to go back just cuts down on that a bit. For those saying just use a scroll - not every toon has the ability (in my stable) to do that. Again, just looking for a quality of life here. I mean, you still have to run back through the forest once anyways.

Thanks!
Taleisin

[Wahnsinnig]

I'd love to see this dungeon retooled a bit to cut down on the redundant running back and forth. For me, that is always a feel bad. Even if the guy at the end who shows you the beachhead that the army has is changed to a wizard who could cast dimension door to go back just cuts down on that a bit. For those saying just use a scroll - not every toon has the ability (in my stable) to do that. Again, just looking for a quality of life here. I mean, you still have to run back through the forest once anyways.

Thanks!
Taleisin

Every quest should have a DD when you enter that takes you to the end so you can complete instantly without bothering with the story of the quest or do anything in it. :rolleyes:

[cru121]

Disclaimer: I have not yet had a chance to try the quest.

If the quest still has the "gather your party before venturing forth" mechanic, please remove that.
In my opinion, while running back and forth is somewhat annoying, "gather" is much worse.

[droid327]

Every quest should have a DD when you enter that takes you to the end so you can complete instantly without bothering with the story of the quest or do anything in it. :rolleyes:

You can tell a story while letting your players keep moving forward. I agree that long backtracking doesn't add anything to the quest experience...it's just a naked time sink.

The only thing you lose ddooring it is the chance to parlay with the wildmen...but simply swap which gate is open and locked so you can access it from the other side instead

[DYWYPI]

If the "Against the Demon Queen" monkey themed area gets converted into the Bullywug area; it'd possibly result in a crest described, which is similar to an ethnic slur. The Wildmen models look more like apes than monkeys.

Some of the Wildmen appearances: Against the Demon Queen (quest), Ataraxia's Haven, Bring Me the Head of Ghola-Fan!, Diplomatic Impunity, Genesis Point, Mining for Ancient Secrets, Sins of Attrition, Slavers of the Shrieking Mines, Storm the Beaches, The Restless Isles and The Twilight Forge.

[mikarddo]

DDO's Wildmen enemies are problematic on several levels


I assume you are talking about political correctness here.

So, it is all good when we killed 100s or 1000s of humans in many quests - but depicting Wildmen is an issue? Such odd priorities.

I wish I could call this silliness an american issue but sadly similar things have starting to appear in the part of Europe where I reside. It seems to even be getting to the point of falsifying history in order to desperately avoid stepping on any toes - real or imagined.

It likely cannot be helped as thats the tone of the time we live in - but I still reserve the right to call it silly.

[Wahnsinnig]

You can tell a story while letting your players keep moving forward. I agree that long backtracking doesn't add anything to the quest experience...it's just a naked time sink.

The only thing you lose ddooring it is the chance to parlay with the wildmen...but simply swap which gate is open and locked so you can access it from the other side instead

Time sink is true, but I do not have a problem with how it is done in Diplomatic Impunity.

I would rather complain about quests like Acid Wit and Combatting Corruption. That way to design a quest is just plain awful.

Diplomatic Impunity is fine as is. But the objective to gather next to Ulevian could easily be removed. Not needed at all for the story.

[Madja]

https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/516216

I brought the vistani up in the past.

That I can understand as the Vistani are very obviously based on the Romani, but I can't even really grasp what wildmen are supposed to "represent"? Like, they're literally just ape people - with a culture and design that doesn't really resemble anything in real life. Is it because they're offending our ancestors like **** Habilis or something?

Even something like dwarfs, gnomes or halflings should be move offensive.




IMO "Purge the Heretics" should be closed and/or retooled. I, for one, refuse to run it on principle.

https://ddowiki.com/page/Purge_the_Heretics

It's really interesting how the Silver Flame is represented in the low level quests like this and "Bringing the Light". They just murder anyone who doesn't follow their tenets - something that is very much against the core teachings of The Church of the Silver Flame. I'm guessing it's based on the whole inquisition period of the Catholic Church.

[magaiti]

Yathink replacing apes with frogs would not be problematic, considering all the hassle around Pepe the frog?

[JoeCamb02140]

IMO "Purge the Heretics" should be closed and/or retooled. I, for one, refuse to run it on principle.
https://ddowiki.com/page/Purge_the_Heretics

I kind of like Purge the Heretics since it serves as part of the back story for Inquisitor Gnomon whom we will later learn in the Lords of Dust is really a Rakshasa. It makes total sense that he would send the adventurers on a quest that undermines the Church of the Silver Flame while pretending that they are doing the church a sevice.

https://ddowiki.com/page/Inquisitor_Gnomon

[axel15810]

As we were updating Diplomatic Impunity for u59 and needed to update all of the monsters anyway, we decided to move forward with replacing the Wildmen in this dungeon. We have not yet replaced Wildmen in other parts of the game, but we intend to do so in the future. DDO's Wildmen enemies are problematic on several levels, and while this could and probably should have been taken care of years ago, we're replacing them now that we have an opportunity to re-focus on this content.

Wildmen and the depiction of them in DDO are not tied to a specific pen-and-paper D&D monster to begin with, giving even less reason for them to remain. As for why Bullywugs as the replacement, we determined that they were a fitting replacement in this dungeon that would cause minimal need to rework the story and other elements that would be difficult to change as part of this Update's revamp.

I appreciate you all for commenting as to your reasons but I find this really silly. It's a fictional made up race. I find it very odd they'd be viewed by anyone as representative, mocking or offensive to any real life group of people (which is what I assume you are implying here). And after all, there are many NPCs and monsters in DDO that could be seen as problematic if someone chooses to look at them through a certain lens. Players in prior posts in this thread have already brought up some. I can think of several others. Wildmen are a classic DDO monster and part of the feel and nostalgia of this pack and other packs where they are included. Removing them will take away from that. They've been in DDO for 15+ years. Leave them, it's fine.

[axiom21]

The quest feels really weird without the Wildmen - and to remove them from the Restless Isles too and the half-dozen or so other quests they're in over...what reasons exactly? I see the "problematic" word is used, red flag.

To put it plainly, if you are in a mindset that when you look at pixels on the screen of a fictional monster in a fictional universe in a video game that you're not forced to play because you think it has some racial or cultural undertones: you're a sick and twister person and should seek help.

Or, maybe, go help real humans?

[HoopleHeadMan]

Every quest should have a DD when you enter that takes you to the end so you can complete instantly without bothering with the story of the quest or do anything in it. :rolleyes:

Not enough... I should be able to log in on any character and be instantly granted completion for all quests and relevant XP FOR those quests without having to run them... this also includes any applicable loot from said quests added to my personal inventory. It's bad enough that I have to teleport to Town Market and then walk 150' to the trainer....cut us some slack!

Oh, and I find the use of Demons and Devils offensive and need that to be changed too... perhaps change them to little Oscar the Grouches, each with their own garbage can and bad attitude?

[salmag]

As we were updating Diplomatic Impunity for u59 and needed to update all of the monsters anyway, we decided to move forward with replacing the Wildmen in this dungeon. We have not yet replaced Wildmen in other parts of the game, but we intend to do so in the future. DDO's Wildmen enemies are problematic on several levels, and while this could and probably should have been taken care of years ago, we're replacing them now that we have an opportunity to re-focus on this content.

Wildmen and the depiction of them in DDO are not tied to a specific pen-and-paper D&D monster to begin with, giving even less reason for them to remain. As for why Bullywugs as the replacement, we determined that they were a fitting replacement in this dungeon that would cause minimal need to rework the story and other elements that would be difficult to change as part of this Update's revamp.

WOW.

This is such a waste of time for you devs.

To replace the Wildmen for no other reason than being "problematic" is stupid. This is a FANTASY setting.

First, they are only "problematic" to short-minded individuals. Remember, this is a FANTASY setting. PCs slaughter basically everything in this game; good, bad, short, tall, light, dark, green, red, grey, etc.

Second, if you're basing the "problem" off of current racial feelings, remember, this is a FANTASY setting. Also, wildmen resemble NO particular race or class of people currently existing. Australopithecus has long been deceased. Who is being offended?

Thirdly, there are other, far more offensive beings in this game that we suppress. Remember, this is a FANTASY setting. Drow, Halflings, Church-goers, Vistani, Dwarfs, are ALL far more offensive than Wildmen to certain groups.

As for them not being tied to PnP; this game has long since departed from PnP (as many will tell you).

I just think your resources would be much better addressing OTHER concerns. But you're going to do whatever you're going to do.

Thank you for morally saving me, I think.

[Bjond]

just murder anyone who doesn't follow

D&D is a game where players are rewarded for killing things based entirely on race. Ogre = kill. Orc = kill. Bullywug = kill. Etc etc etc. The degree of pure prejudice with the expected response of "kill it!" in most video games is astounding.

It only flies, though, when people don't associate any targets directly with a subset of current-day humans. IMHO, I view the popularity and acceptability of this kind of entertainment as a somewhat sad commentary on the inherent xenophobia of the human race itself.

Enough posting for now. Time to kill more ORCS!

[GoldyGopher]

As we were updating Diplomatic Impunity for u59 and needed to update all of the monsters anyway, we decided to move forward with replacing the Wildmen in this dungeon. We have not yet replaced Wildmen in other parts of the game, but we intend to do so in the future. DDO's Wildmen enemies are problematic on several levels, and while this could and probably should have been taken care of years ago, we're replacing them now that we have an opportunity to re-focus on this content.

Wildmen and the depiction of them in DDO are not tied to a specific pen-and-paper D&D monster to begin with, giving even less reason for them to remain. As for why Bullywugs as the replacement, we determined that they were a fitting replacement in this dungeon that would cause minimal need to rework the story and other elements that would be difficult to change as part of this Update's revamp.

I guess I am being pretty dense here. Who exactly are the Wildmen depicting as a racial stereotype (You can PM if you want)? I am stumped? **** erectus?

[rmi]

Good riddens to wildmen. Always hated the ungrateful bastards.

"Look there is someone to rescue us! Quickly kill him!"

[Firebreed]

I hope the Wildmen stay in the Restless Isles at least.

[DYWYPI]

GoldyGopher, possibly terms similar to "monkey" and "boy", is probably one of the main reasons those Wildmen are getting the axe. It mostly relates to Slavery in the United States and the US culture, e.g. parallels of people and monkeys. Plus they are also called Wildmen, not Wild persons. I think you'll be able to figure out the rest.

[Martininice]

WOW.

This is such a waste of time for you devs.

To replace the Wildmen for no other reason than being "problematic" is stupid. This is a FANTASY setting.

First, they are only "problematic" to short-minded individuals. Remember, this is a FANTASY setting. PCs slaughter basically everything in this game; good, bad, short, tall, light, dark, green, red, grey, etc.

Second, if you're basing the "problem" off of current racial feelings, remember, this is a FANTASY setting. Also, wildmen resemble NO particular race or class of people currently existing. Australopithecus has long been deceased. Who is being offended?

Thirdly, there are other, far more offensive beings in this game that we suppress. Remember, this is a FANTASY setting. Drow, Halflings, Church-goers, Vistani, Dwarfs, are ALL far more offensive than Wildmen to certain groups.

As for them not being tied to PnP; this game has long since departed from PnP (as many will tell you).

I just think your resources would be much better addressing OTHER concerns. But you're going to do whatever you're going to do.

Thank you for morally saving me, I think.

I mean, I can see the idea behind it, but ironically, I think people who are "offended" by that are the ones attributing traits of these critters to certain groups of people, while everyone else just thinks "hey, look, monkey people!". And if you choose the twitterati sphere as your moral compass, you should not be surprised your game will have become Pong at some point (though I guess somehow even that can be construed as "ableist" or something like that, you never know with these folks).

[Moribund_the_Greater]

WOW.

This is such a waste of time for you devs.

I just think your resources would be much better addressing OTHER concerns. But you're going to do whatever you're going to do.

I couldn't agree more.

[Cordovan]

We cannot have a discussion on these forums about the wider cultural attacks, harassment, oppression and fighting taking place in the US and elsewhere, and it will not be permitted as it relates to our decision to change monsters in our game, either. Any further discussion about "woke culture", which is a clear political debate, will not and never be permitted on these forums. This is your final warning.

[GimpyPaw]

We cannot have a discussion on these forums about the wider cultural attacks, harassment, oppression and fighting taking place in the US and elsewhere, and it will not be permitted as it relates to our decision to change monsters in our game, either. Any further discussion about "woke culture", which is a clear political debate, will not and never be permitted on these forums. This is your final warning.

So you're saying we aren't allowed to even discuss or question why you're making a change? The lag has been horrific lately, there are glitches rampant in the game, transfers still are broken, and you're wasting time with replacing wildmen? And you do this what, to appease people who don't even play the game?

[Cordovan]

You are welcome to provide your feedback as long as it does not touch the wider political fight currently happening. This change is being made because we want to, not due to any appeasement effort.

I made a huge error on the LOTRO side by allowing such discussion related to a television show and I will not repeat that mistake here.

[Rehmlah]

As I was playing through, I noticed a few lines of quest dialogue that have not yet been changed. I expect there will be another pass before release, but in case this list helps:


Ullevian says "Perhaps the wildmen will let you through without trouble."
Dialogue with the Vinethrasher Warrior guard outside the gate has an intimidate option calling him a monkey-man.
Dialogue with Zharig also has a similar intimidate option.
Zharig's /say dialogue after successfully choosing diplomatic dialogue begins with "Wildmen of the Vinethrasher Clan!"


A lot of the Intimidate dialogue in this quest seems to revolve around appearance-based insults. Would it be possible to change some of these up while rewriting the dialogue? I'm not really sure what would feel better, though.

[The_Human_Cypher]

I want my wildmen back. Bullywugs are funny but the wildmen are apart of classic DDO.

I agree. The wildmen aren't "problematic," IMHO. They're just wildmen.

[GimpyPaw]

This change is being made because we want to, not due to any appeasement effort.

Because you want to? Seriously? Are wildmen causing some performance issues with the game? In what way is the game going to be any more playable or enjoyable by swapping out frogs for apes? Why is this a priority over a host of actual glitches and lag? How did wildmen beat out server transfers on the priority list?

[Seph1roth5]

Are some of the changes made in the legendary quests also made in the heroic one? Would love less gathers and flagging in general.

[Cordovan]

*snip* Why is this a priority over a host of actual glitches and lag? *snip*

It isn't, as evidenced by everything else being previewed on Lamannia this week.

[The_Human_Cypher]

Here's my suggestion to the devs if you must remove wildmen from the game: use mongrelmen in their place instead. Mongrelmen are a much better choice than whatever you might be planning on using instead. Bullywogs are very specific to the swamp and don't fit well into a jungle enviroment.

https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgw9SPkpJu2Q9o25YQ9SH_41uL-gROOYcbIhmyEolf4Z09vuK0288eDei4j4mqiQgB43G3zs1alVa mfa3l-ztE-0_VzFy1ZUVuEWky3QGMs3q4tQa_Co2ULCOmm71BjFTpw-XOH65jYzCHhQhsJ8oehdZhs4u6LHTpG0SxsLJw7iFg_Oca__P2 HMBcajw/s466/mongrelman.PNG

[Munnin2]

We cannot have a discussion on these forums about the wider cultural attacks, harassment, oppression and fighting taking place in the US and elsewhere, and it will not be permitted as it relates to our decision to change monsters in our game, either. Any further discussion about "woke culture", which is a clear political debate, will not and never be permitted on these forums. This is your final warning.

Not weighing in on the cultural debate in anyway, BUT I do want to point out that the Dev's started this by stating that anything in this game is "Problematic". IF they are problematic from a coding stand point....that would make sense. But without further clarification of what is problematic about it, Steelstar opened the door for speculation. Speculation led to its natural conclusion, and that conclusion might offend people. "Shrug" Can't do anything these days without offending someone.

[droid327]

You are welcome to provide your feedback as long as it does not touch the wider political fight currently happening. This change is being made because we want to, not due to any appeasement effort.

I made a huge error on the LOTRO side by allowing such discussion related to a television show and I will not repeat that mistake here.

Not trying to shoot the messenger, I know you're just doing your job as CM...buttttt...

To quote a wise man: "Dont start nothing, wont be nothing". If the SSG leadership didnt want to invite debate about this issue, then they shouldn't have unilaterally decided to open the issue by making this change. I dont think I've ever once, in my many years of activity in the community, seen anyone actually complain substantively about the representation of Wildmen. This is a solution in search of a problem. So it seems a bit disingenuous to say we cant opine about the politics of the change, when the change itself is entirely driven by those very politics.

[Firebreed]

As I was playing through, I noticed a few lines of quest dialogue that have not yet been changed. I expect there will be another pass before release, but in case this list helps:


Ullevian says "Perhaps the wildmen will let you through without trouble."
Dialogue with the Vinethrasher Warrior guard outside the gate has an intimidate option calling him a monkey-man.
Dialogue with Zharig also has a similar intimidate option.
Zharig's /say dialogue after successfully choosing diplomatic dialogue begins with "Wildmen of the Vinethrasher Clan!"


A lot of the Intimidate dialogue in this quest seems to revolve around appearance-based insults. Would it be possible to change some of these up while rewriting the dialogue? I'm not really sure what would feel better, though.

These do have to be changed if the Wildmen are indeed going away.

[magaiti]

A lot of the Intimidate dialogue in this quest seems to revolve around appearance-based insults. Would it be possible to change some of these up while rewriting the dialogue? I'm not really sure what would feel better, though.

Get croaked, green face.
I'll glue your fins together, bumpy.

[magaiti]

Bullywogs are very specific to the swamp and don't fit well into a jungle enviroment.

Wildmen village does have a swamp-looking pool somewhere, afair. So do Restless Isles, underground. No swamps in Ataraxia though, at least near the wildmen area.

[DYWYPI]

I've never noticed any performance issues whatsoever regarding interactions with Wildmen. However, I've certainly seen glitches caused by certain other mob models in some other quests where the Wildmen are not present. I thought those fellows were quite interesting, I will miss them being in: Diplomatic Impunity, and elsewhere. I certainly didn't associate them with anything other than some type of fantasy apelike creature.

[Diracorvus]

You can tell a story while letting your players keep moving forward. I agree that long backtracking doesn't add anything to the quest experience...it's just a naked time sink.

The only thing you lose ddooring it is the chance to parlay with the wildmen...but simply swap which gate is open and locked so you can access it from the other side instead

Finding the way and walking the distance can't be part of the story? Everything has to bow to the mighty xp/min?

[The_Human_Cypher]

So, tonight, I played through the Heroic 'Diplomatic Impunity' quest on a live server and then played the Legendary version on the test server to compare the two.

The DM's voiceover narration has been selectively edited in the Legendary version to remove references to the wildmen and is very terse in some parts as a result. The quest is somewhat poorer due to this change.

As noted above, there are still at least several references to wildmen or "monkey-men" in dialogue text and quest options. The text for the entire quest should be reviewed before this goes live (which I hope it doesn't).

My thoughts: if SSG is being pressured to eliminate wildmen from the game by WOTC or Daybreak, then I suppose they have to do it. If this is an internal decision by SSG, I would ask them to reconsider. The community doesn't want this, and bullywugs are a weak replacement that seems out-of-place in this quest. The wildmen should stay in here (and elsewhere) if at all possible.

[Oxarhamar]

I've never noticed any performance issues whatsoever regarding interactions with Wildmen. However, I've certainly seen glitches caused by certain other mob models in some other quests where the Wildmen are not present. I thought those fellows were quite interesting, I will miss them being in: Diplomatic Impunity, and elsewhere. I certainly didn't associate them with anything other than some type of fantasy apelike creature.

I remember the combat with the wildmen at the camp being particularly laggy however I have not been through there in ages every group I have run with skips that

[Stradivarius]

Don't mind them replacing Wildmen with something else. But I feel Bullywogs don't fit the jungle theme; they're kinda more swamp/lake people.

Lizardmen are more jungle oriented imho.

[Madja]

Here's my suggestion to the devs if you must remove wildmen from the game: use mongrelmen in their place instead. Mongrelmen are a much better choice than whatever you might be planning on using instead. Bullywogs are very specific to the swamp and don't fit well into a jungle enviroment.




Mongrelmen already exist in the game and their models are just pretty much just wildmen with hoods on, so I don't think they'd want to use those :D

https://i.imgur.com/04CTtfV.png

[Stradivarius]

Could replace them with Warforged, like the one's that went off on their own and created their own primitive WF tribe?

[Maxxcore]

GoldyGopher, possibly terms similar to "monkey" and "boy", is probably one of the main reasons those Wildmen are getting the axe. It mostly relates to Slavery in the United States and the US culture, e.g. parallels of people and monkeys. Plus they are also called Wildmen, not Wild persons. I think you'll be able to figure out the rest.

I think the DnD Wild Men are Wild Men and not Wild Persons because they are actually all men. At least according to what I read, they are 100% men lol.

[Aelonwy]

Don't mind them replacing Wildmen with something else. But I feel Bullywogs don't fit the jungle theme; they're kinda more swamp/lake people.

Lizardmen are more jungle oriented imho.

Searched "Bullywug habitat" and this is first entry I got:
Bullywugs preferred to inhabit dark, dank places isolated far from human beings, wet locations like rainforests, damp caves, swamps, meres, or virtually any other warm but shady region with abundant water.

I remember ponds in that quest. One right at the beginning, another by some cats, a third in an optional. I'm not sure about the climate difference from that jungle versus a rainforest or if it matters very much in a fantasy setting.

I think Bullywugs are fine for that quest, I think Lizardfolk would be fine too. I really don't care but I have never much liked the poor art assets of Wildmen which are too much like wights/ghouls/ghasts in movement and frame wearing bad costumes.

[Stradivarius]

For your reference as to what a "Wildman" looks like:

https://i.imgflip.com/7h9nis.jpg

[mpetrarca]

SSG is problematic on several levels, and it is shown by the now very small player base. I just purchased IoD, took me 3 months of playing to farm the points, SSG will never get another penny from me.

[The_Human_Cypher]

ssg is problematic on several levels, and it is shown by the now very small player base. I just purchased iod, took me 3 months of playing to farm the points, ssg will never get another penny from me.

This. ;)

[PurpleSerpent]

As we were updating Diplomatic Impunity for u59 and needed to update all of the monsters anyway, we decided to move forward with replacing the Wildmen in this dungeon. We have not yet replaced Wildmen in other parts of the game, but we intend to do so in the future. DDO's Wildmen enemies are problematic on several levels, and while this could and probably should have been taken care of years ago, we're replacing them now that we have an opportunity to re-focus on this content.

Wildmen and the depiction of them in DDO are not tied to a specific pen-and-paper D&D monster to begin with, giving even less reason for them to remain. As for why Bullywugs as the replacement, we determined that they were a fitting replacement in this dungeon that would cause minimal need to rework the story and other elements that would be difficult to change as part of this Update's revamp.

Personally, I think this is an excellent idea. Wildmen have always had unfortunate undertones as monsters in Dungeons and Dragons, and unlike some similar humanoid monsters (I might mention the Hadozee here, although other monsters like the Lizardfolk have undergone similar adjustments recently), it's not something that a background change can fix. And as for putting them in the Monkey room of Against the Demon Queen...

A couple of points I would just like to make. First, it would be a shame to lose the Mongrelfolk in Ravenloft as a result of this, because they aren't really Wildmen at all - perhaps it would be worth moving them to their own unique race?

Secondly, of course, while Bullywugs fit fairly well in the environment of a jungle island, there are other locations, such as the deserts of Menechtarun or the underground tunnels of the Restless Isles, where they'd feel out of place, so I'd just like to caution against using them as catch-all replacements. A few other monsters spring to mind as better ideas - Lizardfolk or Goblins, perhaps?

(Two of the remaining packs without difficulty options, Devil Battlefield and Restless Isles, contain quests with Wildmen, so it's nice to think that these might be getting a rework soon. Especially in the case of the Restless Isles, which has desperately needed one for years now.)

[Lauf]

You are welcome to provide your feedback as long as it does not touch the wider political fight currently happening. This change is being made because we want to, not due to any appeasement effort.

I made a huge error on the LOTRO side by allowing such discussion related to a television show and I will not repeat that mistake here.

Ask and you shall receive.

When I started out in DDO, lord knows how many years ago, I had a tank, one of my first toons if not the first. I farmed that quest for hours for the reflective shield, it became my favorite quest in the game, and I'm always happy to rerun it.

I should mention I have read the thread, I am not from the US, am not involved in your politics etc.
I am mentioning this as you seem to assume comments are a consequence of what is happening there or part of that discussion, so I felt you should know that this is feedback from your random global player.

As a player, I've enjoyed the wildmen. They have (had?) a unique feel to them, they have character.
I feel you should strive to create more unique mobs such as these, and do what you can to preserve at least the feel that these had. There aren't many memorable unique humanoid mobs. Off the top of my head the only others that come to mind are the Shadar-kai.

I have to admit that I have tried and failed to understand the problem with them. From what I gathered the wildmen were from the European culture, hairy white humanoids, akin to Satyr and Ogre.
I am mentioning this in advance to explain and apologize why my proposed solutions may be way off. Not understanding the problem makes it hard to offer a solution.
With that said, perhaps change their name? perhaps a different skin would do? or are their mechanics the issue?

I would hope you to try and find a way to solve the problem instead of throwing them out, I feel they add to the game even in the other quests they are in. If there is a way of altering them to your satisfaction, please do.

And as for the frogs, I fail to see what they would do in a jungle filled with panthers. Maybe replace the wildmen with Satyrs instead?

[Aelonwy]

For your reference as to what a "Wildman" looks like:

https://i.imgflip.com/7h9nis.jpg

Yep. That Brigandine? style armor does look appropriate in the unique setting of Restless Isles. It was the one place I said I liked them. They just fit there.

[DoctorOfLiterature]

I do not find the wild men problematic. I don’t really care if they are replaced either so long as the new monsters fit the setting. Mostly I would prefer for staff resources to be used more productively to improve the game especially for new players.

[Stoner81]

Sad to see the Wildmen go, I quite like them :) but oh well it is what it is I guess *shrugs*

Stoner81.

[SocratesBastardSon]

I like bullying Bullywugs as much as the next player, but it feels off putting them there. Why not just stick with the Droaam (https://eberron.fandom.com/wiki/Droaam) milieu and go with a race known to inhabit that region? Goblins come to mind. They're very common in P&P D&D, but underrepresented in DDO since they were a later addition. Now's the chance to, well, balance that out.

Now if you ever did a Restless Isles pass (and I hope you do), I say, "Bring on the Bullywugs!"

[Logicman69]

This is definitely a time when a little white lie would have gone a long way to avoid all this. A statement simply saying "While updating the quest, we uncovered some problems with the animations of the wild men. We had a choice to either spend time updating them all, or replacing them with a more updated character model. We chose the later as the best course of action".

I would think 99% of the players would simply say "ok, fair enough" and move on with that explanation. But when you say that the particular race of monsters are "problematic" without citing details, then it leaves too much open for interpretation. Add on that recent changes to the table top games, and its no wonder that the player base is assuming this decision was made because of other factors.

[rabidfox]

The bleed (and possibly other attacks) the bullywugs do will make the quest a bit more interesting.

[elvesunited]

So ALL wildmen will eventually be replaced?

Where else are they in the game besides Restless Isles and Ataraxia? Against the Demon Queen. The island in Inspired Quarter. Uhm Storm the Beaches... am I missing anything?

Storm the Beaches could be replaced by anything... Lizardfolk, Yuan-ti or Bullywugs... might need to replace the wolves with something that might live side-by-side with these monstrous-humanoids.
Ataraxia? Something that lives on a beach, in caves. Could put Sauhaugin here.
Restless Isles... I liked them here, fit with the ogres. Maybe goblins?
ADQ? Fit with Monkey Crest, idk how this will change to be appropriate. I think I would change the crest to something else entirely and while I was in there change the Trogs for the snake crest to Yuan-ti.
Mining For Ancient Secrets... any enslaved humanoids? drones and automatons mining? Constructs could be cool.

Storm the beaches -> goblins like wolves
Ataraxia -> Gnolls like Hyenas which are common in that area
Restless Isles -> Shifters given the wildmen are good guys more often than not in these quests (except for the turncoats) and no evil race really applies.
ADQ -> Tabaxi as it's kind of a leaping challenge. And change crest to cat
Mining for Ancient Secrets -> Kobolds! As they are a common slave race you don't feel bad about killing.

[Munnin2]

So assuming that modern day thinking is driving what is and is not problematic. Technically speaking the vast majority of quests in the game can be summarized as: Heroes invade native territory, and slaughter natives. I have never once heard someone say they were going to quit DDO because of the wildman or even the content in the quests. Lag issues (supposedly being resolved) Extreme Power Imbalance, Extremely new player unfriendly environment. Those are all reasons I have heard people quit. Perhaps SSG has had people in there cancellation question mention them. But its highly unlikely someone whose been in game for many years would have done that, or even someone who had a serious interest in the game.

In reference to the comment earlier liking wildman to slavery: The entire Menace of the underdark pack is riddled with slavery (albeit you have to rescue...OR Slaughter them) and I think there are better ways to handle the wildman situation in that quest anyways. Put the chief at the start, have the players negotiate with him before entering their territory. Perhaps make them non combative...a bit of background scenery if you will.

[magaiti]

Wildmen first appeared in the game in the Restless Isles pack. There are extensive dialog lines describing wildmen origins as descendants of Quori experiments.
This explains their appearance in Dreaming Dark as well.
They should either stay there, or be replaced with a close substitute (mongrelfolk, or other deformed, yet sentient creatures). Otherwise the whole Restless Isles and Dreaming Dark story would have to be rewritten.

As for other quests, do whatever, but keep in mind that not only the monsters but map objects should be revised. Quori have distinct architecture associated with them (Medieval Japan like), and wildmen may have similar surroundings. These would not make sense for other races.

[Pandjed]

As a long-time tabletop D&D-player (who is tbh a bit scared of reading any article of D&D/WotC/Hasbro lately), I know that several backgrounds and such are probably to certainly tied to real-world history and stereotypes, and many of them are not very pleasant. Like how the mind flayers invaded and enslaved the whole multiverse, creating countless of (sub-)races due to their experimentations, like the duergar or the gith, all in an effort to create the perfect servant race.
When I started DDO, I was a bit bewildered by the wildmen, as I thought I had extensive D&D-lore, but then I found out that they were a DDO-creation and my thought back then was "lazy". Mostly because of the lackluster design and that I thought why we had these critters, but not the shifters (who are still very underrepresented in the game in quests imo), but then we got some lore...

Any politics aside, the wildmen will leave a big hole in the narrative tapestry and that's important for immersion and worldbuilding. I don't think bullywugs can solve it, because their role in most D&D-worlds is very different, they're meant to be... well, bullies. Attacking those who are weaker then them, keeping them in the role of the victims, etc. It's just a bad human trait projected into a fictional race to make stories about it.
Will lizardfolk do it? No, while they are more in-line of a wise natural culture, they do have a natural habitat in Khorvaire on Eberron, so while having them in this quest will certainly make it look more in line (as it just doesn't look damp enough and too rocky for frogs to live well there imo), it will not help in the long run.

My suggestion would play the long game. First, leave the wildmen here until the other work can be done, maybe only change some dialogue in the quest. In the long run, they would be replaced by a race, which could be detrimentally called wildmen, but would fit into D&D (even the new One D&D want to take them into the core), they are strong enough to be good slaves for the quori, they would have innate roots on Xen'drik because of their link to the giant, and they would even make a great choice for a player race: Goliath.
Of course it would take time to make the art assets, but as Goliath are living in harsher environments outside what we call civilization, they could replace the wildmen of DDO basically seemlessly, and from the perspective of many less-inclusive giants and most humanoids, they would appear as a grotesk hybrid of the two.

If you want to replace wildmen, take goliath!

[Bjond]

Intimidate dialogue in this quest seems to revolve around appearance-based insults

Intimidate itself is grossly misnamed when considering it's effect. A real-life successful intimidation doesn't result in a mindless rage-attack. It results in submission, cowering, or fleeing. 'Course D&D doesn't have a "Taunt" Skill or any other skill that directly fits the behavior we get in game.


Sad to see the Wildmen go, I quite like them :) but oh well it is what it is I guess *shrugs*

The only place I think would literally break the story is for the ones in Sunrise to be removed. It's only a minor plot piece in that one quest, not truly part of the overall Barovia story, but removing those would mean rewriting and revoicing the entire quest. Diplomatic Immunity wildmen are minor "color". Bullywugs, Lizardmen, Kobolds, or all kinds of other critters could easily be swapped there.

From a play standpoint, the reason I made a ranged character to begin with was because of all the hopping and jumping. I still like melee the most, but it seriously detracts from the fun of playing one; ie. my melee thought it was cool and fun for about 5 quests, after which it became a constant irritant.

[Phoenicis]

8<snip>8
The only place I think would literally break the story is for the ones in Sunrise to be removed. It's only a minor plot piece in that one quest, not truly part of the overall Barovia story, but removing those would mean rewriting and revoicing the entire quest. Diplomatic Immunity wildmen are minor "color". Bullywugs, Lizardmen, Kobolds, or all kinds of other critters could easily be swapped there.
8<snip>8

There are no wildmen in 'Sunrise'.

They are Mongrelmen, creations of the Abbot because they wanted to be 'stronger' in a classic corrupt-a-wish.

[Ghop15]

Create a new race to replace the Wildmen as former Quori servants, since that was their story purpose in DDO. Keep the Ghast/Ghoul animations but put a new texture over them. Maybe call them the Dream Men and make them more Quori themed. I think that would be cool. Also put them in the Monster Manual.

[The_Human_Cypher]

So, we're asking SSG to reconsider this decision to purge Wildmen from the game. Nearly everyone in the community believes this is a waste of developer time and resources and many players actively object to removing the Wildmen.

As has been pointed out in this thread, taking the Wildmen out of the Restless Isles leaves a gaping plot hole that can't be filled by bullywugs or some other incongruous humanoid species. The Restless Isles is one of my favorite places in the game and I would weep softly for a few moments if this happens. You don't want to make a 51 year old man cry, now do you?

Even as it is, the 'Diplomatic Impunity' quest is significantly tarnished by swapping out the Wildmen for bullywugs who are a poor fit. It would take less effort to put the Wildmen back into this quest with the original text and DM narration than to eventually remove the Wildmen from at least a half dozen locations in DDO. Here's hoping you listen to the community.

[Mindos]

Here's hoping you listen to the community.

They are. There's more than one community. Alignment to the correct one brings accolades and contentment. All others are incorrect and "problematic".
Which community is which changes over time. But aggresive historical safety reviews by whichever secure you from noticing. For your protection.

[Mindos]

Why not empower the Wildmen? Surely they are aware of themselves and their world. Are they not insulted and "awoken" by the player characters' call to violence?

They do not need to be removed from existence for their or for our protection. NAY! They need support! A heavy military reinforcement. Imagine a world where wildmen were not to be trifled with. Where the wrong choice of words led not to shortcuts throught a decimated village but instead to the players' own demise.

We should strengthen not minimize the wildmen. They should be truely formidable enemies of the travelling murder hobo's we call the "players". Every contact should end almost always in the players death or nearly so. Every quest with wildmen should be the stuff of legends. An utterly insane level of difficulty representing their rise to power.

Keep the wildmen. Raise up the wildmen. Fear the wildmen.

A fun filled tale of tables turned- educating and challenging the modern player!
Or you know, just delete them. Whatever.

[Annex]

Anyone wishing to understand what is going on here needs to do some research. You will quickly discover the underlying issue. :( :( :( If you want to discuss that issue in a meaningful way, you will need to find a forum outside the control of Hasbro and Wizards of the Coast management.

[Madja]

Anyone wishing to understand what is going on here needs to do some research. You will quickly discover the underlying issue. :( :( :( If you want to discuss that issue in a meaningful way, you will need to find a forum outside the control of Hasbro and Wizards of the Coast management.

I am still very confused as to what the issue with them is... Is it with their appearance or is it their culture that is the issue?

[Captain_Wizbang]

As we were updating Diplomatic Impunity for u59 and needed to update all of the monsters anyway, we decided to move forward with replacing the Wildmen in this dungeon. We have not yet replaced Wildmen in other parts of the game, but we intend to do so in the future. DDO's Wildmen enemies are problematic on several levels, and while this could and probably should have been taken care of years ago, we're replacing them now that we have an opportunity to re-focus on this content.

Wildmen and the depiction of them in DDO are not tied to a specific pen-and-paper D&D monster to begin with, giving even less reason for them to remain. As for why Bullywugs as the replacement, we determined that they were a fitting replacement in this dungeon that would cause minimal need to rework the story and other elements that would be difficult to change as part of this Update's revamp.


orcs, bugbears, trogs, would be my choices. Bullywugs are about as exciting as wildmen are. :rolleyes::cool:

I don't like your choice, but I get it. So I'll stand behind your collective reasoning.

Looking forward to performance changes really, monster types are way down on my list.